What bhn = hardcast?

[crabo]

At what point does the casting alloy become "hardcast"? Is WW considered hardcast or does it take water quenching for that to happen?

Thanks,

Crabo

[cbrick]

Well, to me its "hardcast" if its too hard for your application. What are you shooting?

Commercial casters have popularized the term "hardcast" for their own benefit, not yours. Commercial casters cast hard very simply because they endure the rigors of shipping better than a proper BHN alloy, NOT because its better for the guy shooting them. Same reason they use hard lube, it stays on the bullet better during shipping NOT because the bullets shoot better with it.

Too hard causes problems with leading and accuracy. The term hardcast clouds the issue for new casters and those purchasing cast bullets. MOST handgun loads are better served with a softer alloy not a harder one. Bullet fit is far more important than "Hardcast".

Rick

[Lead melter]

According to the Midway USA catalog in the bullet casting alloys section, the term "Hardball" is equal to the Lyman #2 alloy [2% tin, 6% antimony, 92% lead]. This is supposed to have a BHN of 16, while WW has a BHN of 10 or 11, depending on composition and who you ask. Elmer Keith settled on an alloy of 16:1 which is slightly harder than a 20:1 alloy with a BHN of 10.

My own alloy of 2/3 lead and 1/3 linotype has tested out at 14 BHN, which is plenty hard. I fired it through a 7" chunk of green burr pine and 10" of red clay dirt from a range of 10 feet. The boolit was a Lee 457-405-RN/FP at just about 1300 fps. It barely deformed, just kind of "slumped" the nose. I am now working on reducing the BHN to just about 10 or 11...right there at WW levels.
Hope this helps.

[44man]

My definition of hard is water dropped WW metal or just a little harder with some antimony and tin added. Maybe 20 to 22 BN. Too hard can be no good so it is a subjective subject.
Hard can mean anything over a 20 to 1 mix or pure lead. Every one of us has his own meaning. When I say hard cast I don't mean real hard. Just what works in my guns. Even 50-50 WW and pure if water dropped is hard.
I do agree that a lot of store bought boolits are way too hard.

[Lloyd Smale]

i consider anything ww or harder to be hard lead

[crabo]

One of the things, I guess I am trying to figure out, is if I need a hardness tester. I am about to buy a bunch of roofing lead from a roofer I know. I know that if there are joints, that it will have a lot of tin in that area.

I am thinking I would want to cut those areas out and smelt them with all of the other pieces that have joints. That way I would keep the soft lead pure. I guess I would then add the lead/tin mixture to WWs. I am worried about consistancy. My metalurgy knowledge is lacking.

Am I on the right track?

Crabo

[45 2.1]

You might consider that the pressure range the alloy is shot at should determine whether it hard, soft or somewhere in between. Part of the problem of people not having good results at high velocity is that they use the same alloy up through the entire pressure range instead of matching the alloy/hardness/ductility to the pressure being used. This alone will cause failure at a certain point by itself due to the boolit being to soft and slumping under too much pressure. This should be obvious, but isn't mentioned mostly.

[cbrick]

One of the things, I guess I am trying to figure out, is if I need a hardness tester. I am about to buy a bunch of roofing lead from a roofer I know.

If you plan to do much casting with various alloys, cartridges, pressures etc a BHN tester would be a good investment. They are not an absolute neccessity, a lot of casters did just fine for years if not decades without one but much can be learned and much time saved by using one and keeping good notes.

The original post was on "hardcast". If its your goal to use roofing lead you'll be just about a light year from anything even close to what could be called "hardcast". Most commercial cast run about 20-22 BHN and are called "hardcast". Normally for handguns that's too hard but your roofers lead should be about 6-8 BHN. Adding tin will net you 1 or 2 BHN and that's all. Answers would be so much easier to give if we knew what the question is.
What are you shooting?

Rick

[VTX]

I cast for rifle and pistol what should the correct hardness be?

[crabo]

I started all of this by thinking about some bullets that I had bought from MBW that I think were about 18. It seems like I have read that most WWs are about 12 or 13. I was wondering when it becomes "hardcast". I am just casting for my handguns right now, but rifles are in the future.

I thought at one time, I would just use WWs and not worry about it. I have about 1600 pounds of WW ingots that I have been using, but the pile is getting smaller. Then came the realization that WWs are getting hard to come by.

Then I found a roofer with a pile of lead in his back yard. It is going to cost me .50 a pound. I told him I would pay him what the scrap company would. I think this will be a source that I can use for a few years while I stock pile some raw materials.

So now, I am working on an alloy plan for the future, so I can continue to shoot cheaper.
I am thinking that:

I could save the pure lead to trade for WWs or sell to a friend that shoots pure lead.
I could mix the lead with the tin joints in with WWs for lower velocity handguns
I can save my small amount of linotype for when I start casting for rifles

I guess I am going to have to start studying some metalurgy and mixing alloys so I can get a good plan going. Getting a hardness tester seems to be in the future.

Crabo

[HeavyMetal]

Crabo:

A few years ago the publishers of Handloader Mag. got busy and published a few" casting" annuals!

These contained articles by almost everyone who had ever contributed to handloader over the years as well as articles written specifcally for the annuals.

Some of the stuff is "Pie in the sky" while others were good honest reference material. I've got lists showing alloy content, formulas for alloying metals to get specifc BHN, and just tons of gotta have info if your gonna get serious about casting.

Sadly the manuals are out of print! Good news is they were doing a DVD with all four manuals on it!

It's called: The Art of Bullet Casting Collection by Wolfe Publishing.

I think I paid 25.00 for it?? Again great info you'll spend a week digging info up.

By the way bought a Lee hardness tester very much worth the money!

[crabo]

heavyMetal, I'll get it. One of my weaknesses is information. I just like to know how things work and how to make them work better. Guess that is one of the reasons cast boolits appeals to me so much.

Craig

[Bass Ackward]

I cast for rifle and pistol what should the correct hardness be?


VTX,

The difficult answer is the correct hardness is the one for your gun at the way (pressure) you are shooting it. This will vary based upon caliber, type of lube, bore condition, etc. So no one can tell you what you should have or use. Match the hardness to the pressure you are using in that gun.

The easier answer is if it is accurate, leave it alone. The only exception is for hunting where sometimes, a compromise between accuracy and expansion "may" be required. Only testing will tell you that.

If I had to make a general reference chart instead of being cartridge specific, I would say:

Soft: 5 - 11 BHN
Medium: 11 - 22 BHN
Hard: 22BHN and up

[Shiloh]

It has already been said, and I agree. "Hardcast" is a marketing word.

Years ago, there were several sellers of cast boolits at local gun shows. I asked what hardcast meant and was told virgin metals alloyed to a specific recipe. They were good boolits in both .38 and .45 ACP.

much later I found out that most of these guys alloy was almost all salvaged WW with a little linotype to harden them up. Like I said they were good boolits and reasonably priced. I now do the same. WW with a little linotype, water hardened for rilfe boolits, and straight WW or WW cut with range s**** for pistol boolits. Those are my "Hardcast" boolits

Shiloh :castmine:

[CSH]

I always thought "hardcast" indicated at least 16 BHN. That is, until I bought a LBT hardness tester about 10 years ago. I used to purchase "hardcast" bullets from Widener's, and bullets for different calibers bought over a several year time span consistently tested 16 BHN. A local bullet caster that sells under the name Magnus bullets, also advertised as "hardcast", used alloy that consistently tested at 15 BHN. I bought some "hardcast" (printed right on the side of the box) from a now defunct indoor shooting range that were sold under the name Valiant Bullets. Their idea of hardcast ranged from 10 - 13 BHN depending on when the bullets were purchased. My idea of hardcast is an alloy that age hardens to 16 BHN or more when air dropped. Your idea of hardcast can be whatever you please.

[TexasJeff]

Sadly the manuals are out of print! Good news is they were doing a DVD with all four manuals on it!

It's called: The Art of Bullet Casting Collection by Wolfe Publishing.

I think I paid 25.00 for it?? Again great info you'll spend a week digging info up.

Craig,

This is the DVD I was telling you about the night we were casting at your house. I have it and I'll make sure you get one too. . . LOTS of very good, pertinent information on it. Four HUGE volumes of stuff.

I've been talking with a metallurgist up north about pure lead and what/how to harden it up. I was worried about having to buy all sorts of additives, etc.

He casts and loads, as well, and has an endless supply of pure lead pipe. He adds some WW to the furnace--about a one to four ratio, he says (one pound of WW to four pounds of pure lead), then water quenches. Said it gets him generally up arond a BHN of 10, which is fine for his handgun purposes.

I (obviously) haven't tried this as I'm still making my way out of the womb and working on my smelting techniques. But, I'll probably give it a shot at one point down the line seeing as how I have a pretty good source of lead pipe.

Jeff

[cbrick]

The referenced DVD "Art of Bullet Casting, Bullet Making Annual Vol 1 and Vol 2, and Cast Bullet Special Edition" is indeed a valuable resource. Highly recommended.

Here is the link, other books on CD and DVD available also. Wolfe Publishing Company (http://www.riflemagazine.com/catalog/listing.cfm?subcategoryid=142)

The complete set of Handloader and Rifle magazines also available on DVD.

Rick