8x58R from 45/90 brass?

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

I have aquired a 1873 Swedish Rolling Block rebarreled by the Swedes to 8x58R.

I need brass. Wikipedia says that 8x58 cases are 2.296 over all, making 45/70 too short by quite a bit - so the 45/90 basic brass is indicated for starters.

I have turned the rims to 0.595 so that they'll work easily. How about the drastic necking necessary? I have a full set of 8x58R dies, the cases have been cut down to 2.275 over all length and I'm ready to go.

What would be the next procedure?

Thanks for any assistance.

Forrest

[EDG]

You will need a series of 2 or 3 dies to neck the case down and push the shoulder back.

Unfortunately you will probably kill a lot of 45-90 cases learning what is needed.
If you can find some junker 45-70 cases they would be good practice to develop the process before committing to the new brass.

You may have to either make the dies you need from scratch
Modify other dies
Buy the dies needed
Farm the forming work out to someone that already has the dies.

The dies used to form the .38-56 and .33 Winchester would be ideal to accomplish most of your work.
You need to inform us of what existing experience you have forming brass and what press and existing dies you have.

The critical dimension for forming your brass will be the shoulder diameter = .460 and the location of the shoulder from the rim.

Ideally you need to sort the 45-90 brass and take out any cases with defects that will be in the neck and shoulder area.
Any dented or nicked case mouths need to be expanded a little to make them round.
Other nicks or dents in the neck and shoulder area are traps for excess lube and will probably get worse if you casually form the cases. They may worse to the point of ruining the brass. Steer clear of any defects in the beginning. Be aware that Starline 45-90 brass if probably hard like other Starline cases and will need annealing.

If I were going to put together a set of dies here is what I would do
1. First size the necks in a 45-90 or .45-70 FL die
2. Check a .375 H&H FL die to see how much it will move the brass before you ruin a case. You may only be able to use the long tapered section. If you do not have this die skip it and go to the .416 Taylor in #2.
3. Consider using a Lee .416 Taylor or a 44-40 Win die body and then a .38-40 Win. to neck the case down to 40 caliber. The base of the .416 die may have to be cut off.
4 The next die to consider is the Lee die body for the .38-56 Win. This one has a lot of taper so watch out.
5. Then a .357 Automag, .358 Win or .350 Rem Mag to neck down more and continue pushing the shoulder back
6. Try your 8X58R FL die here.
7. Once your brass is formed it will need to be annealed.

The die bodies 2, 3 might have to be cut off at the base to move the shoulder back

If you have a lathe you can make the dies you need from 7/8-14 socket head cap screws or B7 hex head cap screws.
The shoulder angles should approximately match the shoulder angle of the rifle chamber. These form dies can be short and the only features they will have will be the shoulder angle and the diameter of the neck.
You would probably need the following neck diameters. The diameters should correspond to a common drill and reamer size.
.42 or so (27/64)
.38 (3/8)
.35 (23/64 or 11/32)
.33 (21/64)

If you are familiar with boring small holes with a boring bar you can make these without buying reamers.
Drill, Ream or bore and then polish with a 400 grit silicon carbide paper used wet with a light oil like WD-40.
Polish until there are no tool marks.

Anyway those are my thoughts. I tend to use more dies in order to get a 100% yield with the process.

[FAsmus]

EDG:

Thanks for the detailed response.

I'm working on first cutting off the 45/90 brass to approxumate 8x58 length and reduce the rims to 0.595 such that they'll fit the Rolling Block recessed chamber.

When this is complete I plan on annealing the necks down to something pretty darn soft and, taking your advise I'll probably anneal between sizing steps.

I wonder about some of the calibers you site as for sizing the neck - for example wouldn't things like 358 Winchester be way too small at the base for the big 45 caliber case to fit at all?

I do have 444 Marlin, 40/65 WCF and assorted 357 pistol dies in hand. Other stuff should be around town somewhere from shooting friends.

Good morning,
Forrest

[EDG]

FAsmus
You are right - the .358 and the Automag base will interfer with the larger diameter .45-90 unless the base of the die is opened.
A 40-65 or 40-82 die might help some though a 40-65 can be a problem itself.
However the .350 Rem mag would work if you are careful not to expand the case at the shoulder by too much down pressure. A .348 Win might be useful. A .33 Win die might help but it will make the shoulder smaller than necessary requiring it to blow out a little on the first firing.

I know the 44-40 and the 38-40 dies may interfere at the top too.

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

I have a Danish Krag in this caliber. 40-82 was my first step down. Then, 38-56, then thru the 8mm FL die. Slowly, anneal between steps, and use plenty of Imperial Sizing Die Wax. Did a hundred Starline cases, and did not lose one.

[craig61a]

I formed about 30 out of Starline 45-100 a year ago with CH4D FL die... A bit time consuming. But I got the old roller going. I'll have get a few other dies so I'll be inclined to make more...

[Tackleberry41]

Do you really need the intermediary dies? First ones I formed were 577/450 from 24ga brass, pretty drastic difference. I just slowly screw the die in a bit at a time, moving the shoulder back as I go. I lose a few here and there, you get a kink that first pass thru the press rounding over the end, might as well toss it. Never comes out, just gets worse as you go along.

[leadman]

I have one of the RBs in 8X58R also. Just to try it I reformed a couple of 45-70 to 8X58R and loaded them with the Lee 8mm Karabiner. The cases reformed easily with a couple of short strokes of the handle and the C&H full length die. Shot good with no issues even with the short neck.

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

Thanks for the information.

At the moment I'm still working on shortening up the cases and turning rims. Next will initial annealing and I'll go to work.

I'll post with details as they come along.

Good morning,
Forrest

[257]

have you tried buffalo arm's for new brass

[FAsmus]

257:

Oh yes! I have 50 45/90 in process.

Forrest

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

Update on the case-forming procedure is like this;

I had a Buffalo Arms 8x58R die set and tried working two cases through it without additional forming dies. ~ Results were marginal. The cases formed alright by careful squeezing at the top of my press's travel after being annealed.

The trouble was that they look pretty crummy - apparent hair-line grooves all around the circumference of the necks. I figure these may very well crack and fail when I shoot them.

Then I borrowed a set of RCBS 8x58R dies from a fellow shooter here in town. I didn't think the different manufacturer would make any difference but I tried them anyway. ~ I also thought more carefully about my annealing procedure.

First I deepened the water, then, I marked the cases with a Sharpie marker at the point where the taper began on a finished case.

Then, taking my little tiny Burnz-o-Matic I heated the case neck, not starting at the mouth but at the place where the shoulder would be on the finished case.

The tiny torch flame, being pointed, permits me to aim it exactly where the shoulder would be and rotating it around and around so-as to heat the case neck evenly. The heat naturally travels up the neck until it evenly turns the proper shade of blue all over while the head remains safe underwater.

When things are right I tip the case over to quench and begin the sizing operations ~ Things are now going well ~ no more beginning cracks in the necks and the whole thing is progressing nicely.

Here is a shot of my bench and the first ten completed cases ~

132678

Good morning,
Forrest

[EDG]

The annealing got rid of the squiggles on your necks?

[FAsmus]

EDG:

In a word - yes.

The appearance is greatly improved and since the weather is improving I'll load today for shooting on Saturday.

The Load will be with the LEE 240 grain 8mm "Max" .. are there any loads out there for the 8x58?

Forrest

[EDG]

Are you aware of the Dutchman's cautions about this round?

http://dutchman.rebooty.com/8x58rd.html

[FAsmus]

EDG:

Thanks for the post.

I have data from this particular rifle as it was loaded by its previous owner as follows:

150 Speer - 60 gr 4931 = 2520 ft/sec

150 Speer - 51 gr 3031 = 2798 ft/sec

LEE 8mm "Max" 240 gr 34 gr 4198 = 1965 ft/sec

LEE 8mm "Max" 240 gr 28 gr 5744 = 1835 ft/sec

As you can see this fellow believed that the re-worked action was fully capible of taking full-house jacketed loads! - And he lived to tell about it.

I am FAR more concervative in my approach!

The LEE bullet seems to be the only cast bullet long enough to reach the origin of rifling, so it'll be my bullet of choice.

I don't have any 5744 but I do understand 4198 and 4759 quite well.

The initial case forming load I have chosen is the LEE over 31 gr 4198, mostly because I have plenty of it and 4759 is no longer in production.

I do not plan on ever shooting jacketed through this old piece, let alone full-tilt loads of any kind.

Good morning,
Forrest

[EDG]

You might snoop around and find an 8lb jug of SR4759 before it is all gone. I found one back in the summer.
I wished I had the cash to buy several.


EDG:
The initial case forming load I have chosen is the LEE over 31 gr 4198, mostly because I have plenty of it and 4759 is no longer in production.

I do not plan on ever shooting jacketed through this old piece, let alone full-tilt loads of any kind.

Good morning,
Forrest

[FAsmus]

EDG;

I have't seen an 8-pounder of 4759 for quite a few years.

I did buy some several 1-pound containers over the past few months - it'll have to do.

The 240 gr LEE 8mm 'Max' is quite long, but even it has only the GC and one band of full diameter seated in the neck. This makes the overall cartridge length exactly one full inch longer than the length of the case itself!

This makes the cartridge 3.305 - just long enough to leave a witness mark on the (oversize) nose.

I'll tell what I find out on the firing line tomorrow.

Good evening,
Forrest

[ascast]

EDG thanks for posting that info. I plan to get my D-krag shooting someday. That is not the only mis-print in Barnes CoW book

thanks again
ascast

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

Yesterday I mounted an old target-grade scope on the old Rolling Block and headed for the range for some serious load-development work.

I worked with 4759, 4198, 4895 and Varget. ~ All with the 240 gr LEE 8mm 'Max'.

The relatively light loads of 4759 shot poorly - showing terrible vertical stringing.

Turning to 4198 the light load of 27 grains did better than 4759 but then I moved to 28.5 grains of 4198 and things improved dramatically. Still, even this load showed marked signs of gas leakage - moderate bullet grease blow-back on the cases due to low pressure.

On, to 28.3 grains 4895 I was amazed to find my first shots missing the big target entirely. I shortly found that they were printing a foot lower than the previous 4198 load - well off the paper. I caught 5 rounds only, these showed a semi-promising group.

The Varget @ 29 grains did fairly well - giving me the most hope of all.

All around it seems to me that there is something about this case design that favors the medium-speed powders at moderate levels.

I plan on carefully moving up in 4198 and Varget, hoping to get something reliable before summer really gets here.

Forrest

[Skipper]

https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/1138

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/544622/bertram-reloading-brass-8x58mm-rimmed-danish-box-of-20?cm_vc=ProductFinding

[Dutchman]

https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/1138


Wrong caliber!! Notice where it says "Sauer"? That's not 8x58R Danish..

FYI Bertrum brass in 8x58R Danish is undersized in the body and will crack.

These Bertrum split from FIRE forming. Not even regular loads with bullets.

http://images58.fotki.com/v286/photos/4/28344/9895637/DSCF0558y-vi.jpg

[FAsmus]

Dutchman;

I appriciate your comments here and for spreading the word about the limitations of the Swedish Rolling Block as re-barreled to 8x58R.

OK

On the other hand you have NOT shared any relivent information about your own experiences with the caliber and the rifle it is chambered in. You have not told us anything about how you form your cases. You have not shared any loading combinations, to include bullet designs, that have provided good performance within the limitations you have given.

Really - I know I'd like to know more about these things of yours. If you have posted them elsewhere - just say so.

Good morning,
Forrest

[craig61a]

I recently formed more cases out of Starline 45-100. I start with approximately 6 second annealing, followed by a 40-82, then a 38-56, 350 Mag, and then final size with CH4D 8x58R full length. I turn the 8X58R die in until it bottoms on the mouth of the case, and then proceed one turn at a time until it's fully sized. I then neck size with a Lee Collet die in 8x57. I need to get a mandrel in .324 since I shoot my boolits sized at .325... I have a .324 sizer ball for the CH4D dies but I find that the die overworks the brass, since IIRC the mouth diameter of the sized cases without using the sizer is down around .315 or so - and I plan getting that opened up a little anyways.

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

I did some shooting on Saturday with the 8x58R as chambered in the Rolling Block.

I ran the cases through the tumbler (vibrater really) inspected them and I thought my results might be interesting to the membership.

Here are two cases, both loaded with HT 240 gr LEE 8mm 'Max' in the Swede.

The one on the left was charged with 31.5 gr IMR 4198. The one on the right was charged with 30.0 gr IMR 4895. ~ Here they are;

137531 137531

The photos are small, sure, but just do the ctrl+mouse wheel to enlarge. As you can see they are the same two cases, just from slightly different positions to hopefully show the necks as clearly as possible.

On both cases it is easy to see where my die sized the necks just enough to retain the bullet. The rounds were fired normally, the cases cleaned, lightly polished with steel wool and their picture taken.

Both necks at the sized portion measure 0.3495. The necks behind the sized portion - where they were first fully fire-formed from reformed 45/90 brass measure 0.3685 to 0.3690.

This indicates to me that my loads above did not have nearly enough pressure to fully expand the necks all the way to the mouths of the cases. Low, in other words. ~ Really low.

This observation is backed up by the fact that ALL the cases fired that day (51) were covered with light bullet lube blow-back. "Smoked" is what we call it, further indicating pressures far enough on the on the low side to prevent proper gas sealing with the chamber walls. ~ And remember, all of these cases were fully expanded during fire-forming.

Down-range results have indicated that light loads just are not what this rifle and caliber prefer for accurate shooting. The light stuff with 4759 causes the hits to string up and down in a straight line about 8 inches tall @100 yards!

It seems that greater amounts of medium burning powders like Varget, 4895 and the ones just a little faster like 4198 are indicated in further testing.

And, by the way, my Buffalo Arms die will not squeeze the necks down any further than 0.348, making the ID go right around 0.3245! ~ That isn't much for secure bullet retention for my 8mm 'Max' sized to 0.3250!

You may be sure that once chambered I'll shoot the bullets out the muzzle, never attempting to extract a live round and scatter powder all over the place!

Good afternoon,
Forrest

[blysmelter]

Fireform 7,62x54R brass; use a fastburning powser and a filler (cream of wheat or simillar) and fire with muzzel pointing straight up. Annealing is always good.

Cases will be a little short, guess what- it does not matter:-) The gun cant tell and the cases last as long as anything else.
Do not overdo it, keep loads on the light side; I use Lapua brass, 196grs SPBT bullets pulled from old mauser-ammo and 42grains Vithavouri N140.

[Dutchman]

Dutchman;

I appriciate your comments here and for spreading the word about the limitations of the Swedish Rolling Block as re-barreled to 8x58R.

OK

On the other hand you have NOT shared any relivent information about your own experiences with the caliber and the rifle it is chambered in. You have not told us anything about how you form your cases. You have not shared any loading combinations, to include bullet designs, that have provided good performance within the limitations you have given.

Really - I know I'd like to know more about these things of yours. If you have posted them elsewhere - just say so.

Good morning,
Forrest


I've been called out!!

I've used mostly Buffalo Arms formed cases with rather poor results. They are extremely brittle and require annealing BEFORE shooting. I've also used standard .45-70 cases that were short but performed just fine. I have some original Norma m/89 Boxer primed cases but will not use them.

Cast bullets used:

Lyman 323470 sized .324"
RCBS 32-170-FN sized .323" -- these shot rather well.

I have some Lyman 323471 but have not loaded them in this caliber. I also have a new NOE 326471 mold that I've not yet got good bullets from (not fully broke in yet). I have high hopes for 323471 and 326471 in 8x58RD and 8x57 Mauser.

I decided early on to restrict this rifle to cast bullet shooting only and then to keep velocities below 1,800 fps. In other words, fairly traditional cast bullet speeds. I did experiment early on with IMR3031 using Portuguese 196 gr FMJ/BT .323" with medicore results.

Powders used: Unique, 2400, Rx7, 700X. I have some 5744 that I will try. Can't imagine getting better results than with Unique and 2400.

The four shot cluster at the bottom... don't recall what they were. Switched to the 2nd batch and sat there watching while they all went into one hole. Figured I wasn't going to get much better than that.

http://media.fotki.com/1_p,sqddwgdqsgfdgdtxwfqbfsgtwfb,vi/kbgkrtqbdxssbbbdtds/4/28344/7937087/8x58RD_165_12_Uniq-vi.jpg

This was a starting load with this bullet and powder. 170 gr FN RCBS .323" purchased from Gardner's Cache. Powder was 20.5 grs Rx7. Safe load level with this bullet and I did some better than this.

http://media.fotki.com/1_p,sqddwgdwsbkgggrxwfqbfsgtwfb,vi/bqqwqdfdrxkbgsffsqg/4/28344/7937087/8x58RD_170FN_205_Re7-vi.jpg

Buffalo Arms brass. Don't know how many times fired but they were annealed before first firing.

http://media.fotki.com/1_p,sqddwggwsrwgwfdxwfqbfsgtwfb,vi/ssdtdsrrrxsqtttqtqd/4/28344/7937087/RB07-vi.jpg

This rifle slugs .324" groove diameter. I've gotten some excellent results with .323" and .324" bullets so far.

http://media.fotki.com/1_p,sqddwgfdbdqrrbgxwfqbfsgtwfb,vi/kkkgtgkdsxbswfkdtgb/4/28344/7937087/RB01-vi.jpg

[FAsmus]

Dutchman;




You say; I've been called out!!


F: Not really ~ it's just that I want to pick your brain.

D: I've used mostly Buffalo Arms formed cases with rather poor results. They are extremely brittle and require annealing BEFORE shooting. I've also used standard 45/70 cases that were short but performed just fine. I have some original Norma m/89 Boxer primed cases but will not use them.



F: This Starline 45/90 brass seems to be working well. I had a lot to learn since this was the first major case-forming I've done. The rims were easy and I guessed the trimming perfectly such that the cases, once formed and fire-formed wound up exactly at 2.295 – or 0.002 shorter than the full 58mm which is 2.2968. I kind of liked that.

D: Cast bullets used:

Lyman 323470 sized .324"
RCBS 32-170-FN sized .323" -- these shot rather well.



F: All I have used in this rifle is the LEE 8mm “Max”, 242 grains at 0.325, heat-treated as hard as I can make them. I'll show one here as loaded. As you can see, almost the full length of the bullet is exposed in the loaded cartridge. This is because it has to be WAY out there in order to touch the origin of rifling. As seated only the GC and about ¼ of the first band enter the mouth of the cases. The rifle has a 9:1 twist which will stabilize the long bullet – but any slower than about 1700 will show out-of-round bullet holes in the paper.

138521


Talk about long throated rifles! This one has more than I've ever seen. Overall length of the loaded round is 3.370.

D: I have some Lyman 323471 but have not loaded them in this caliber. I also have a new NOE 326471 mold that I've not yet got good bullets from (not fully broke in yet). I have high hopes for 323471 and 326471 in 8x58RD and 8x57 Mauser.



F: I have a M48 Mauser that I have been working on. It shoots the SAECO 62081 quite well over 31.0 gr of Varget. ~ This bullet is much too short for the Swede.

D: I decided early on to restrict this rifle to cast bullet shooting only and then to keep velocities below 1,800 fps. In other words, fairly traditional cast bullet speeds. I did experiment early on with IMR3031 using Portuguese 196 gr FMJ/BT .323" with medicore results.


F: I'm not worrying too much about velocity. As I noted in my post I am finding that the cartridge/rifle seems to prefer medium-speed powders under the long LEE bullet. I'm convinced that the barrel is good and I figure things will come together soon around 2000 ft/sec.


D: Powders used: Unique, 2400, Rx7, 700X. I have some 5744 that I will try. Can't imagine getting better results than with Unique and 2400.


F: The previous owner of this rifle worked with 5744 – finding that 28 grains under the LEE bullet worked quite well. Unfortunately, I don't have any 5744 ~

F: Was all your shooting at 50 yards?

Here all my short range load developmental shooting is done at 100 and if all seems well the rifle goes up to the hill-top range where we work things on out to 834 yards.


This was where my initial load of 4759 fell flat on its face, showing terrible high/low problems at any distance at all due to erratic velocity spreads.. ~ Back to the loading bench!

[leadman]

I shoot the Lee Karabiner and a Lyman 170gr Loverin boolit in my RB with the alloy from 11 BHN to 15 BHN. Could a too hard boolit be some of the cause of your low pressure results?

I use 12grs of Unique with the Lyman boolit and 22grs of SR4759 with the 239gr Lee Karabiner. The Lyman boolit will shoot into 1 1/2" most of the time at 100 yards. The Lee will do 4" to 5" most of the time at 200 yards.
Went to the garage to confirm my powder charges and found I have almost no loaded ammo made up for this rifle! This is a good time to try some Hi-Tek coated boolits in this cartridge. This will eleminate the exposed wax type lube maybe picking up dirt.

Bob Shell wrote an article on this gun quite awhile ago that you should be able to access on-line. He loaded it beyond 30-06 velocities and ended up spreading the sides of the action apart. He didn't know how close he came to ending up with parts of the gun in his eye!

[FAsmus]

Leadman;

Tell me why hardened lead alloy bullets would cause case blow-by smoking?

Thanks,
Forrest

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

I have been out shooting the Swede today ~ more load development stuff.

138625 138623

Here are two pictures. The one shows the two groups fired with 34.0 grins Varget as posted on my data sheet, complete with the loading information. The one with the two fired cases shows how much lube blow-by was deposited on the cases by this shooting.

To me this indicates a low-pressure load, even though the heavy bullet and case capacity, being just a tad more than 30'06, would lead me to expect at least a 'moderate' pressure level.

Now, right at the moment this level of Varget is plenty powerful and the 5x1.550 or so group size shows that the accuracy is good enough to take it to the next level ~ that is; load 60 for long-range testing on the hill-top range, on out to 834 yards..

Forrest

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

Here in the loading room this morning I had a thought about that blow-by case fouling; I think it may not be associated with low pressure after all.

What does the membership think about the impressively long throat in this rifle? I'm thinking that the powder gasses are finding their way around the bullet as it rests in the chamber during firing and pouring back over the neck and body of the case ~ thus showing the moderate to heavy lube fouling that I have encountered..

What'dya think?

Forrest

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

Shooting with the Swedish rolling block continues ~

The rifle seems to prefer the moderate level of power for it to shoot well.

I have settled on 33.5 grains Varget under the 242 grain LEE 8mm 'Max' and taken the rifle out on the hill-top range to get elevation numbers for all silhouette distances.

This presented problems in that it has been quite rainy here and there isn't any way to self-spot since there is no dust from misses.

Then I found that my 12x Leupold that I use for shooting group/accuracy testing is not user-friendly for shooting over the course of fire: The elevation graduations read backwards! The darn thing has numbers all right but "up" starts at 15 and "down" is zero ~ this means that when you increase the elevation the numbers get smaller! Yuck.

Then the far 835 yard target is far enough that changing from the 670 yard distance is a matter of guessing how much to add because there is bout 37 minutes of change as the bullets begin to fall out of the sky between the two targets. Not only that but a 6X Burris over the same distance only needed a counted +17 increase! ~ Ah well. I found the steel eventually.

I include a picture of a spent bullet collected at the 587 yard distance. It hit soft dirt and only the nose is damaged much at all. Alongside is a fresh as-cast example.

The grooves on this bullet measure 0.3231 and the bore is 0.3133. I know from experience that bullets fired over full-power cast bullet loads will actually be about 0.001 under the groove size in the rifle as determined by other methods. To me this means that my sizing is right-on at 0.325, or 0.001 over groove diameter.

Good day, Forrest

140742

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

I bought dies and a hundred 45-90 cases formed from the Great Buffalo. Yes, I annealed them before loading, and after every other firing. My rifle is a Krag repeater. So far, so good. I'm shooting about 33gr of Tubal-2000 with the NOE boolit. I have a good source for 3% antimony 97% lead alloy. I put 50lbs in the 80lb WAAGE pot and add a pound of tin. I am shooting mine unsized, they drop at .326"+/- on to a towel. I pick them up with a pair of hemostats, look at the base, and set them base down into a wooden block that holds 60 boolits. Then I flux and repeat. It's a trick I learned from HM Pope.

[leadman]

If a hard boolit is not sealing the bore the pressure in the case and chamber will be lower than if the boolit had sealed the bore completely. One thing you might change is after the cases are fireformed do not use the full length sizer die to size the neck. I use an 8 X 57 Mauser Lee collet die. This way the shoulder is not touched at all along with the case body. I have found with several of my old rifles that the full length die will size the body and possibly the shoulder areas. You might want to check before and after case dimensions.

A member here posted some time back that he way using 338 Win Mag. brass to make the 8X 58RD from. I found a few of these cases yesterday in my garage and it does appear they can be converted. I have put them aside for later.

When I form 45-70 to 8 X 58 RD I do not anneal but make short length passes and this seems to form the brass well with no wrinkles. We used to do this when reforming metal in a hydraulic press at work and it made a better end product than reforming the metal in one pass.

[FAsmus]

Leadman;

You say: If a hard bullet is not sealing the bore the pressure in the case and chamber will be lower than if the bullet had sealed the bore completely. One thing you might change is after the cases are fireformed do not use the full length sizer die to size the neck.

F: My reworked 45/90 brass has not seen any additional sizing since it was formed and then fire-formed.

You see, with the extra long LEE 8mm 'Max' I cannot reach the origin of rifling with the bullet unless the overall cartridge length is 3.470 - or 1.170 longer than the case itself! In turn this means that only the GC and about 0.060 of the bullet body are in the neck of the cases. Thus, I only bother to slightly size only this portion of them. You may note the marks on the picture of my cases in previous posts.. Even then the ID of the necks is not reduced enough to touch the expander button, yet, my 0.3250 bullets are securely retained in the cases.

~ But! Do not make the mistake of attempting to extract a loaded round: The bullet will remain stuck in the rifling!

Leadman; I use an 8 X 57 Mauser Lee collet die.

F: How do you fit the 45/90 cases far enough into a LEE 8x57 die? They are much too big!

Leadman: This way the shoulder is not touched at all along with the case body. I have found with several of my old rifles that the full length die will size the body and possibly the shoulder areas. You might want to check before and after case dimensions.

F: You may be absolutely certain that I have done so.

Leadman: When I form 45-70 to 8 X 58 RD I do not anneal but make short length passes and this seems to form the brass well with no wrinkles. We used to do this when reforming metal in a hydraulic press at work and it made a better end product than reforming the metal in one pass.

F: How can you possibly make the 45/70 cases long enough to match the 8x58R chamber? I only sized one 45/70 case, measured it and found it to be nearly 0.200 short of the necessary 3.298 of the 8x58R specified overall length.

As for only forming cases by slow increments of the die ~ this is without doubt the only way that works at all.

I have a theory about smoked cases: The huge length of what may be called 'freebore' or perhaps 'throat length' in this rifle's chamber combined with all the bullet lube exposed by seating the bullets so far out may be the culprit. The lube is simply vaporized and goes wherever it can as each round is fired.

Also, as each case is fired again and again they fit better and better. By now, with 6 or 8 cycles each smoking has fallen off a great deal.

Thanks for the post, Forrest

[FAsmus]

Leadman;

I take it back - the LEE 8x57 collet tool does work just like you said it did.

Amazing. Thanks for the tip.

Forrest

[jrap]

I am looking at getting one of these rifles soon. Would you guys recommend getting the CH4D die set?

[FAsmus]

Jrap;

Nope!

My first try was CH4D die set.

I freely admit that I was a raw beginner at case-forming procedures. I was inexperienced enough that I didn't know what a proper forming die felt like when in use. ~ No matter what I did so far as annealing and careful lubing and press procedures I was ruining cases with the CH4Ds and even the ones that came out properly formed showed marked stress cracks right where you don't want them.

I quit trying after it seemed that I couldn't figure it out. Then a fellow here in town, hearing of my troubles said; "Here - try my RCBS forming dies!" ~ He loaned me his RCBS Custom-shop die. What a difference! When I was done I returned my friend's die and ordered one of my own.

NOTE: See my post at the beginning of this thread for the details concerning these procedures..

So - my advise is to call the RCBS Custom-shop. They might even have a sizing die in stock. If not the wait will be worth it - or - we might be able to work out a loan between the two of us ~ delivery of a custom die sometimes takes a couple months!

Good morning,
Forrest

[craig61a]

I just made up another batch of cases over the weekend for another 8x58R roller I picked up. I had to take the rims down to .590" on these; the other one I have works just fine with the rims left they are. And I also found that I can just back the 8x58R sizing die out 2 1/2 turns and go with half turns back in to form the shoulder. So basically just 8 press operations. I still haven't got the CH4D sizing die opened up or the larger mandrel for the Lee die... Guess I better get on it, but it's been a busy summer.

[Dutchman]

Case dimensions for 8x58R Danish from Denmark & Sweden.

Danish military issue case dated 1931:

case OAL = 2.272"
head diameter = .501"
rim diameter = .574"
rim thickness = .058"
bullet diameter
at case mouth = .323"

Norma commercial 8x58RD
headstamp = Norma 8mm m/89

case OAL = 2.266"
head diameter = .501"
rim diameter = .576"
rim thickness = .059"
bullet diameter
at case mouth = .323"

http://media.fotki.com/1_p,wbbddbwttfftftqxwfqbfsgtwfb,vi/rdgggqgqrxswbggrtrr/2/28344/3886627/rbam2-vi.jpg

http://media.fotki.com/1_p,wbbddbwrkbkdgtqxwfqbfsgtwfb,vi/dkqrkrdkgxftbfffwfw/2/28344/3886627/rbam1-vi.jpg

http://media.fotki.com/1_p,wbbddbwdgwdkssfxwfqbfsgtwfb,vi/rdfqfgqrgxswtqbtdrd/2/28344/3886627/z1-vi.jpg

http://media.fotki.com/1_p,wgwwstsqgtkbrfxwfqbfsgtwfb,vi/swbggrtrrxgkqktkgdt/2/28344/1097683/89a-vi.jpg

[craig61a]

I've spent the summer playing with Snider's and Martini's, now I'm working with my rollers again. I shot one of them a while back and I had good results. I'm currently getting another one ready to fire, and as I mentioned formed up cases the other day.

I did mention that the rims on the cases for the second one wouldn't allow them to chamber and I trimmed them down to .590". The first roller did allow the formed cases to chamber without trimming the rims, so I never bothered to trim them.

So tonight I had the fired cases out and I tried chambering them. They did not chamber as easily as they did when first fired. So I was a little puzzled, then I realized that the rims were probably not concentric to the axis of the body of the case, and with such little clearance of the rim they might have not been centered in the chamber when fired. And since the case walls expand just ahead of the head about .004" or so, there was some resistance. If I turned the case to a particular orientation the case slid in easily. So I took a few of the cases that fit more tightly and trimmed the rims down, first to .590", then down to .580". This did relieve the tightness of chambering them, some more so than others. Of course I could do more of a full length sizing on them to help correct the issue, but for now I'll just experiment with turning the rims down.

This left me with the thought that I should probably just turn all the rims down on cases I form, so as not to have the rims pushing the alignment of the body slightly out of center. I also wrapped one wrap of electrical tape around the base about 1/4" wide. It does insert with a little resistance into the chamber, but I think that will help keep the base reasonably aligned in the chamber. I would only have to do this once to fire form the case, and then I don't expect I'll have any further issues as I experienced previously. I hope to get out and test this out before deer season opens in few weeks, otherwise it will be December before I can get around to it.

[craig61a]

Well I had 16 out of 50 cases in the batch for the first rolling block that hadn't been fired yet. I took the rims down to .590", cut a little chamfer on the body side of the rim, and taped as described above. I filled the cases with 28 gr. of H4198, 1 gr. of Polyfil, topped with a 8mm Max boolit and headed out to the range.

Accuracy was excellent. The tape did give me some trouble closing the block but I was able with a little firm pressure to get the rounds chambered. After fire forming I removed the tape and chambered the empty case in a variety of orientations. No resistance whatsoever...The block clicked shut with ease.

It's taken me a while and some research and experimenting, but I have the process down for sizing, trimming, and fire forming that yields very good cases with a minimum of hassle. Yeah the process is still a little involved, but I get 100% yield and cases that are like they came from a factory.

I anneal the necks after forming. The one down side - the throats are quite roomy, and the necks blow out about .010", so re-sizing does work the brass a little more than I'd prefer, but a .335" boolit ain't gonna work in this. I plan to re-anneal the neck every other firing and see how much mileage I can get out the cases. If they hold for 5-6 reloadings, that averages out to $ .15 - .20 per reload. Hopefully they'll go quite a few more reloadings.

[FAsmus]

Craig;

Thanks for sharing all of that interesting work.

Here my summer's shooting did not include anything with the 8x58 - there being just too much other stuff going on with cast bullet shooting/reloading and, of all things, two new pups being brought into my life.

My main trouble with the Swede is sights. As purchased it had no iron on it at all - the previous owner had been using one of those externally adjustable outfits. His scope system worked well but was not part of our deal; I had to come up with my own and my options do not include the type scope he was using.

~ So, I'm using one of my old 12X Leupold target scopes. This works but only marginally since I cannot mount it far enough back for the eye relief to become comfortable - it remains only just barely usable and thus I find myself selecting my good 7x57 M1908 Brazilian Mauser for my long-range silhouette shooting instead.

The roller shoots reliably into 5x1.500 or so @ 100 yards. I have had no case loss through over-working the cases. I have found that neck sizing only the first 0.200 of the neck is plenty to retain the 8mm Max bullets since they seat WAY out there anyway. The loaded ammunition is a little stiff to chamber so I take along my 6-ounce 'dead-blow' soft face hammer to tap the breech block firmly shut the last little bit instead of trying to do it by hand pressure alone.

My 'standard' load is 34 grains Varget. This is enough to seal the chamber properly - I no longer get lube blow-by on fired case bodies and shoots quite well.

Good shooting - Forrest

[leadman]

Sounds like you have it going well. I haven't shot my 8X58RD in awhile now. Hunting seasons are over for me this year so hope to get back to a regular schedule at the range.
I do not load my boolits long enough to hit the rifling because as you found out some method of closing the block is needed to get the gun to fire.
The Lyman 160gr RN GC is a short boolit but it shoots very well even set back from the rifling a ways. Still shoots well enough to embarass some of the black rifle shooters!
You might be correct in your finding on the smoked necks. I want to shoot some of my Hi-Tek coated boolits to see what the do. These are a clean to shoot as most jacketed bullet ammo. I have gotten excellent accuracy and surpassed jacketed bullet velocities in a couple of other rifles so I think they will shoot just fine.
I have not shot iron sights since I was told several months ago that I have 2 cataracts. These are supposed to be just starting and no surgery is needed yet. But why is everything dimmer now?

My rifle still has the original front sight from the conversion and a cut down rear sight. I installed a cheap tang sight I had in the holes that were already in the top tang. The tang sight would be hard to use in competition since the eyepiece when loosened moved windage also.

[craig61a]

Craig;

The loaded ammunition is a little stiff to chamber so I take along my 6-ounce 'dead-blow' soft face hammer to tap the breech block firmly shut the last little bit instead of trying to do it by hand pressure alone.



Do you have the bullet seated so far out it's contacting the leade before it's fully chambered?

I've been thinking of making a base I could pin into the existing rear sight mount so I could mount a LER scope on one of these - just what I need another project...

[FAsmus]

Craig;

In a word, yes, I do seat to a length such that the nose just contacts the origin of rifling. ~ Not to be engraved, just to touch. (see previous posting, this thread)

The breech block needs the slight encouragement mostly to save the palm of my hand which gets tired of the heavy pressure needed to securely lock the action every time a round is chambered. ~ Most of the time the action is easily locked by hand pressure, I just like to be certain with this old turkey..

- F

[craig61a]

One though that occurred to me was that your brass might be a little 'lopsided'. I noticed with my brass that I shot the first time around that some where tough to chamber. I attribute this to not having the bases taped as I did on my last outing. The brass is out of round, well not really but the rear section is not really concentric with the base of the case. I'll have to look into this more and see what happens when I fire that brass again.

I tried re-sizing the brass from the first rifle that I had trouble chambering. First case ended up getting stuck in the die. I annealed a piece of brass and ran it up in the die, I had to work in steps. the CH4D dies I have do work the brass quite a bit after it's been fire formed.

So I guess the key thing I've learned is it's prudent to tape the bases when fire-forming so that the alignment of the case is proper...

[craig61a]

One other interesting note: I trimmed for an OAL of 2.280" initially, and after firing the cases shortened to about 2.275" on average.

[craig61a]

152762

[GWM]

Thank you all for this very interesting thread :)

[FAsmus]

Craig;

That is an impressive series of dies!

I was much more primitive in this project. The first FL die was a C&H 4D from Buffalo Arms. This tool didn't work well, crumpling cases more often than not. I gave up and borrowed a RCBS Custom shop FL die and things went much better.

With the borrowed RCBS I could and did size 8x56R from cut-down 45/90 brass with just the one FL die. I could not do it one pass of course. Instead I "short-stroked" the procedure ~ advancing the die in the press little-by-little until the case was fully formed. This provided me the greatest mechanical advantage and with the smooth RCBS die I did not loose any more basic brass.

The light soft-face mallet is needed to fully chamber the loaded rounds because I seat the bullets just-so: engraving the first band just a little. It is really not a force fit - I can do it by hand. The little mallet is just easier.

Forrest

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

Up-date on the Swede is like this;

I took it down to my local gunsmith and had him shorten the 33-inch barrel to 30-inches. This removed the old unused front sight and old "Marble" ramp. It also made the rifle's appearance more balanced instead of looking like a spaghetti barreled weird-o.

He also made a custom base for my standard Redfield-type rings machined with 0.050 cut into it that allows for the additional elevations I normally find enjoyable to be reached with internal scope adjustment capabilities from 100 yards on out to our max distance of 834 yards. I also bought and installed a new Leopold 4X scope, replacing the old 12x..

This work was done very well.

Naturally I then loaded up some previously used loads to see if the rifle still 'liked' them ~ having been changed somewhat.

I had in the mean-time located and installed an original "issue" type butt-stock, complete with the Swedish military emblem. This made it's overall appearance much more satisfactory to me.

I loaded the combination of the LEE 8mm "Max" at 245 grains and 34 grains of 'Varget'.

For testing @100 yards I got settled in and fired 30 rounds for confirmation of performance.

The shooting went well. The only thing I noted was that as firing progressed in a given group the shots 'strung' ~ moving higher as the group developed and the rifle warmed up.

I found that by 'holding' just a little low as a group progressed I could and did reliably generate groups of less than 5x1.500. For this riffle in my hands I'm satisfied.

The only difficulty I encountered was the fairly high level of recoil. The rifle as configured is fairly light, so, I was moved to locate and put on my recoil pad that is usually used when shooting things like 45/90 and 50/90SS.

I do believe I'll locate and try some loads that provide accuracy and reduced levels of recoil.

Good afternoon, Forrest

[enfield]

where did the Varget load data come from ?

[GWM]

This work was done very well.

Pics? :-)

[FAsmus]

Enfield;

"Where did the Varget load data come from ?"

F: I worked it up myself; slowly, carefully.

Good morning

[FAsmus]

GWM:

I'll work on that ~

F

[taco650]

Talk about resurrections LOL! This thread started over a year ago.

Anyway...

FAsmus,

You asked in an earlier post about why a harder lead bullet would allow gas blow back and I don't think you ever got an answer. Making your boolits too hard won't allow them to "upset" at the base when the gas hits them. This "upset" is where the slug actually swells from gas pressure and fully fills the rifling and seals the bore. This sealing makes the lube work like its supposed to, keeps the gases behind the boolit (for more velocity) and usually reduces leading. FYI, all this info I learned from this web site.

[FAsmus]

Taco650;

Yes, I know about softer alloys sealing the bore better. ~ I use this knowledge pretty much all the time, especially in revolver shooting.

Here the problem seems to be different - that is the bore seals well - it has to since my bullets are at least 0.002 larger than the groove diameter.

After some 300 experimental rounds it seems that the problem is associated with an excessively long and spacious throat. The 'smoked' cases are seen with loads that I know have considerable operational pressure - well able to seal the case to the chamber walls.. Still they smoked until I found that sizing them only the first 0.100 of the neck, and the neck only, worked! Shooting no longer smoked cases all the way back to the case body the way they used to do. ~ Only the first 0.100 that had been sized was smoked. ~ Which is, by-the-way, something I have seen in other cartridges.

To give you an idea about the throat, it is oversize (the diameter is un-measured as yet) but it easily swallows the 0.325 bullets without touching a thing. And it is long, going a full 0.500 ahead of the case mouth before even the slightest engravement of the bullet nose is seen. ~ And even this allows some room between the nose diameter and and first driving band. This room and plenty for gas to leak back wherever it pleases during firing.

The over-all length of a loaded round with the LEE 8mm "Max" is 3.470! Only the GC and about 0.050 of the next driving band is in the case at all.

If I could find a 220+ grain 8mm mold that cast at 0.326 or so I think this problem would be completely cured.

Could you tell me which post of mine has the remark you have used? I'd like to re-read it!

FAsmus

[leadman]

I personally would hesitate to shoot your Varget load. These are old guns and with unknown histories. When these come apart is appears the rolling blocks break at the pin holes and the upper chunk of metal is propelled rearward, until it hits the shooter in the head/ eye area. There are pictures here that Dutchman posted or linked to showing what happens to the gun. Shooters of some of these broken guns have not survived the experience. Also easy to find them on the internet.
To help the case necks center in the large chamber neck area I leave some of the flared neck to center the neck and also act as a seal to keep the gases forward of the case.
Engraving the front of the boolit into the rifling is something I try to avoid also. With the damage and arthritis in my hands it is easier for me to load so the boolit is a couple thousands off the rifling. I did experiment one time with nose engraving but it did not result in smaller groups so don't do it anymore.
To increase the size of the boolit coming from your you can cast a couple boolits from each cavity and make a paste of Comet or other abrasive cleaner and coat the boolit lightly with this (keep it off the gas check shank) and spin it in the cavity a bit with a slow drill of screwdriver on a screw turned into the boolit base. Keep hand pressure on the handles as you are turning the boolit. Should cut .001" in a short time so check often.

[FAsmus]

Leadman;

I personally would hesitate to shoot your Varget load..

F: Roger all that and thanks.

I was (reliably?) informed that these actions were originally made for black, then re-barreled and re-heat-treated for the 8mm round. Now you're telling me that none-the-less they are coming apart?

L: To help the case necks center in the large chamber neck area I leave some of the flared neck to center the neck and also act as a seal to keep the gases forward of the case.

F: Yes, that is kind of what I have found. My way is to size only the very first part of the neck, leaving about 0.150 of the neck untouched by the die. It is the way I pretty much eliminated the gas blow-back and smoked cases. However, the unsized case does need a little encouragement to fully chamber, even when shooting something like 22 grains of 4759 instead of the Varget combination. Enter my 8 oz soft-blow - two quite light taps close the breech perfectly with no stress on my hands.

L: Engraving the front of the boolit into the rifling is something I try to avoid also. With the damage and arthritis in my hands it is easier for me to load so the boolit is a couple thousands off the rifling. I did experiment one time with nose engraving but it did not result in smaller groups so don't do it anymore.

F: I've done this pretty much for my entire cast bullet shooting career - but I wouldn't describe the technique as "engraving". ~ "Touching" would be more like it. Here in the 8x56R the ogive just barley touches the origin of rifling. I almost have to use a magnifying glass to see where it is just beginning to touch.

L: To increase the size of the boolit coming from your you can cast a couple boolits from each cavity and make a paste of Comet or other abrasive cleaner and coat the boolit lightly with this (keep it off the gas check shank) and spin it in the cavity a bit with a slow drill of screwdriver on a screw turned into the boolit base. Keep hand pressure on the handles as you are turning the boolit. Should cut .001" in a short time so check often.

F: I have heard of this procedure - but never found it necessary. Here, the LEE 8mm "Max" drops from the mold at 0.3255 and the largest 8mm lube die I have is 0.325 - so I'm stuck with these sizes unless I wish to get real serious, buy more tools and do all the stuff necessary to get them working.

Now I like the rifle alright, but I don't intend for it to become a real "project" gun.

With your cautions and my dislike of the powerful recoil of the Varget combination I intend to go on back to the almost-as-good 4759 load.

Good afternoon, Forrest

[17nut]

If a hard boolit is not sealing the bore the pressure in the case and chamber will be lower than if the boolit had sealed the bore completely. One thing you might change is after the cases are fireformed do not use the full length sizer die to size the neck. I use an 8 X 57 Mauser Lee collet die. This way the shoulder is not touched at all along with the case body. I have found with several of my old rifles that the full length die will size the body and possibly the shoulder areas. You might want to check before and after case dimensions.

A member here posted some time back that he way using 338 Win Mag. brass to make the 8X 58RD from. I found a few of these cases yesterday in my garage and it does appear they can be converted. I have put them aside for later.

When I form 45-70 to 8 X 58 RD I do not anneal but make short length passes and this seems to form the brass well with no wrinkles. We used to do this when reforming metal in a hydraulic press at work and it made a better end product than reforming the metal in one pass.

Here's one i did as an experiment from a 300WM.
The rim is marginal at best and much to my surprise it works positive in my Swedish 89RB and my Danish 89KJ

This is how far i could size it (as is):
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/M789%20Rolling%20Block/R0012252_zpsopv2q3k1.jpg (http://s295.photobucket.com/user/Chickenthief/media/Skydning/M789%20Rolling%20Block/R0012252_zpsopv2q3k1.jpg.html)
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/M789%20Rolling%20Block/R0012253_zpsjazl3275.jpg (http://s295.photobucket.com/user/Chickenthief/media/Skydning/M789%20Rolling%20Block/R0012253_zpsjazl3275.jpg.html)

Up in the lathe for some minor turning:
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/M789%20Rolling%20Block/R0012254_zps4lvjkl4w.jpg (http://s295.photobucket.com/user/Chickenthief/media/Skydning/M789%20Rolling%20Block/R0012254_zps4lvjkl4w.jpg.html)

Some more lubing and sizing the last part (actually mostly moving the shoulder)
Top 300WM
Middle the bastard
Bottom a Norma 89 cartridge
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/M789%20Rolling%20Block/R0012255_zps6ipuaols.jpg
(http://s295.photobucket.com/user/Chickenthief/media/Skydning/M789%20Rolling%20Block/R0012255_zps6ipuaols.jpg.html)

If you can get the donors as range scrap then this venture is well worth while, as 7mm, 300WM and 338WM works equally well.

[FAsmus]

17nut:

Wow!

Your basic case and all the procedures are completely new stuff for me! Impressive from start to finish..

Here, for me I hope my serious case-forming days are over: I have 85 good cases made from the 45/90 basic brass and from the amount of shooting I've done with the Swede they should last until I can no longer see the sights.

As a follow-up I would be quite interested in the loads you have found successful in your rifles.

Good afternoon, Forrest

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

Since this thread was active my 8x58R shooting took a sabbatical over the whole summer. ~ I had other rifles to shoot over our course and I was having issues with the marginal sighting system installed on the Rolling Block.

The Redfield base modification (below in this thread) worked OK for extended elevations but it didn't help the eye-relef problems associated with the way things were set up for an externally-adjustable scope. No matter what I did all the scopes I have except my old steel-tube 10X Weaver could not be mounted far enough back for me to see the field properly unless I got all scrunched up - and the 10X Weaver (good once a zero was set) would not repeat previously established range settings over the 10 distances we have set up for long range shooting.

Then, the weather got pretty cold around here. I got to thinking about sights. I tossed the modified Redfield base, took a new Weaver base, drilled some new holes through it such that it extended about an inch past the breech end of the barrel. Then I mounted a new Leopold 4x scope way back there where I had decent eye relief at last. This works. The Roller is back on the line.

Now if it would just go above zero for a little while I can give it the whole work out.

Good morning Forrest

[17nut]

17nut:

Wow!

Your basic case and all the procedures are completely new stuff for me! Impressive from start to finish..

Here, for me I hope my serious case-forming days are over: I have 85 good cases made from the 45/90 basic brass and from the amount of shooting I've done with the Swede they should last until I can no longer see the sights.

As a follow-up I would be quite interested in the loads you have found successful in your rifles.

Good afternoon, Forrest

Mine is full length so YMMW

I opted for Norma N202 and here are 3 groups shot at 55yds with irons and my sad old eyes:
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/M789%20Rolling%20Block/R0011066.jpg (http://s295.photobucket.com/user/Chickenthief/media/Skydning/M789%20Rolling%20Block/R0011066.jpg.html)

I settled for 32grains wich gives me @1850fps and i have tried other powders and as long as i keep the speed they all give good groups.

That 8mm MAX bullet shoots so good.
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/M789%20Rolling%20Block/R0011065.jpg (http://s295.photobucket.com/user/Chickenthief/media/Skydning/M789%20Rolling%20Block/R0011065.jpg.html)

[17nut]

I personally would hesitate to shoot your Varget load. These are old guns and with unknown histories. When these come apart is appears the rolling blocks break at the pin holes and the upper chunk of metal is propelled rearward, until it hits the shooter in the head/ eye area. There are pictures here that Dutchman posted or linked to showing what happens to the gun. Shooters of some of these broken guns have not survived the experience. Also easy to find them on the internet.
To help the case necks center in the large chamber neck area I leave some of the flared neck to center the neck and also act as a seal to keep the gases forward of the case.
Engraving the front of the boolit into the rifling is something I try to avoid also. With the damage and arthritis in my hands it is easier for me to load so the boolit is a couple thousands off the rifling. I did experiment one time with nose engraving but it did not result in smaller groups so don't do it anymore.
To increase the size of the boolit coming from your you can cast a couple boolits from each cavity and make a paste of Comet or other abrasive cleaner and coat the boolit lightly with this (keep it off the gas check shank) and spin it in the cavity a bit with a slow drill of screwdriver on a screw turned into the boolit base. Keep hand pressure on the handles as you are turning the boolit. Should cut .001" in a short time so check often.

Your choise, for the rest of us it's a load in the 16-18kpsi range and quite safe.

[FAsmus]

17nut;

Thanks for the post.

I don't know how to expand this picture but on your screen you may be able to do so.


183296

Anyway - it shows the shooting at 100 yards I was able to do once the 4x scope was installed with the standard reduced load of 4759 and 8mm Max.

The next day it was cold and windy - the day after that it dropped off to -32F and stayed below freezing for the next 10 days.

Now, although it has warmed to above freezing the snow on the range is pretty deep and Christmas is upon me and mine as well.

I'll come back to this thread when I have more shooting to share.

Good evening, Forrest

[Texas by God]

Did I miss the pics of the rifle, Forrest? Best, Thomas.

[FAsmus]

Texas;

I'm working on learning how to transfer pictures.

I should be able to do it today

- F

[FAsmus]

Texas;

I had a nice big images but the Site would not allow them to post.

I hope this will help.

- F


183372

183374

[salpal48]

It seems That all The above advice has a Lot of quality knowledge . All that stuff cost a lot of cash and Most of all time. . I do not have a danish Krag. I would suggest Purchase the Dies . Then Just buy 20 cases from Buffalo arms. and shoot.
I do a lot of Forming . It never pays to invest in a Lot of Forming Dies.
I always like to do Things myself But there comes a time to make things simple and enjoy yourself more
You not Only will never get your money Back unless You plan on selling Them later. 20- 50 cases will last many, many Years. You will enjoy the Gun more

[17nut]

It seems That all The above advice has a Lot of quality knowledge . All that stuff cost a lot of cash and Most of all time. . I do not have a danish Krag. I would suggest Purchase the Dies . Then Just buy 20 cases from Buffalo arms. and shoot.
I do a lot of Forming . It never pays to invest in a Lot of Forming Dies.
I always like to do Things myself But there comes a time to make things simple and enjoy yourself more
You not Only will never get your money Back unless You plan on selling Them later. 20- 50 cases will last many, many Years. You will enjoy the Gun more

Unfortunatly they're Bertram brass and utter ****!
@10% split at first firing and even if annealed after every firing you're hard pressed for luck getting more than 7-8 shots out of them.

Tell me again how thats cheaper than reforming range pick ups?

7.62x54R and 8x56R is a pass through the sizing die and you're shooting.
Belted magnums need a little lathe work but still no special forming dies.

I have reformed loads of 45-90 using nothing but my CH4D dieset.
A little finess and loads of patience is the key.

[17nut]

Oh you cant say cr4p, that get beeped out.

[FAsmus]

Gentlemen;

No short-cuts for me.

I went with 100 Starline 45/90 cases.

I tried the Buffalo forming die - it didn't work well so I got the RCBS version. This worked very well.

It was my first time at serious case-forming and I lost some but the remaining 87 are showing no signs of wearing at all.

I do not know much about the way these old rifles were chambered and throated but this one of mine has such a terrifically deep throat the the LEE 8mm Max must be seated out to the place that the only thing holding it in the case mouth is the gas-check portion of the loaded round.

Thus, if I'd tried to use 7.62x54 brass I'd have been outa luck!

- F

[salpal48]

Most of Those so called Arm Chair reloader always claim That certain Brass is no good or did not work Or a Lot of BS. . The main Reason why Thing don't work out for Them Is there own stupidity. you should do what ever you want. . If you want to Buy or make you do it.

[17nut]

Most of Those so called Arm Chair reloader always claim That certain Brass is no good or did not work Or a Lot of BS. . The main Reason why Thing don't work out for Them Is there own stupidity. you should do what ever you want. . If you want to Buy or make you do it.

Why do you call yourself stupid?

I have yet to see you demonstrate so many of the virtues you describe.
On the other hand i see a lot of ingenious members actually doing something to get shooting and posting pitures of it.
And Bertram brass is still cr4p in this thread too.

How about a little math Mr. expert?

5 bags of 20 Bertram cases 5 x $67 =$335 + 10% for the cases that split at first firing $33½ total $368½
Now a RCBS form die costs $100 and 100 Starline 45-90 cases cost $97.

Now tell me/us again how that is way better to cough up $368 for cr4ppy brass compared to $197 for the best quality?

Dont go away mad just go away, we dont want your negativity here!

[FAsmus]

Texas & 17nut;

What do you guys think of the pictures I posted?

~ If you expand them some on your screen you'll be able to see the shim I put under the rear of the scope mount. This is to enable me to shoot at longer ranges than the internal adjustment permits.

Right now its sky-obscured, moderate snow, wind NW at 20G35 @ 12 degrees F. ~ Not really good shooting conditions..

As the brass question goes let me say that once the cases were formed all I have to do is deprime/reprime and size the first 0.050 of the case necks. This is all that I need to hold the LEE 8mm Max. Case life? Indefinite..

Forrest

[17nut]

You da man!
Now you have dived into the deep end and is floating like a cork. Next time you deal out a dose of voodoo to the noobs.

Real reloading is the means to having fun at the range with weird guns and odd cartridges. That is why we are here ;-)

We are all here because we are not all there!

[leadman]

I have bought Bertram cases for other guns and found the quality lacking. The cases for the Nagant revolver won't even allow the cylinder to turn as the rim is too thick and too large in diameter. After correcting this they only lasted for a couple of reloads.
The reformed brass from Buffalo Arms from 348 Win. is working very well for me. I purchased this used from a member here along with the Lee mold. My reformed 45-70 works fine also and in my rifle still allows the boolit to be close to the rifling. I do have some 338 Win brass I intend to reform and turn the belt off of.
I'll have to take the rifle out to the range and shoot it to see how my eyes are doing with the tang sight. If I need to I'll mount a scope on it.
Looks like the OP has figured out how to make his gun shoot well and accurately. This is the end result most of us "shoot" for.

[enfield]

Bertram Brass, I only own 20, 43 Mauser cases, I annealed them before ever using them and have loaded them about 5 to 10 times ( who keeps track of this stuff anyway ). I have heard all the horror stories but I have not lost any , also the brass has been used in at least 2 different guns, or 3 or maybe even 4 ? I agree it is too expensive but I was young and foolish at the time.

[enfield]

sorry, I meant to say I have 40 cases ( 2 boxes )

[FAsmus]

17nut;

Are you talking of me?

Sure I noted the length of the 8x58R case and made mine as close as I could.

Then again I made the 44/63 Ballard from the 444 Marlin case for Quigley and modified the 30 Herrett to the LN version for breech-setting back at Coors Scheutzenfest 1985.

Sticking to the proper OAL for the 8x58R case seemed righteous right on down the line.

- Forrest