Partially sportorized Reminton 1917

[lpspinner]

So I have this sitting around for a few years in the "project to be started" pile. It's a Winchester M1917 in .30-06. The person was a machinist and already milled the ears off. The top of the receiver is flat. She didn't even round it off. She was also a long distance, high power shooter and told me the barrel was shot out.

So I'm thing of finding someone to finish rounding out the receiver, drill and tap it and then replace with a 338 Lapua barrel. Any idea who makes one? I already know about the Criterion and Numrich barrels. But no word on other calibers.

Any thoughts?


eta: It's a Winchester, Not a Remington as I first thought.

[flounderman]

I would shoot the barrel before you take someone elses word for it being shot out. I can't remember seeing a shot out 06 Enfield barrel. They can be ruined by neglect, the muzzle might be worn from cleaning and I would shorten the barrel, anyway. I'm about done with one right now and the barrel is going to be shortened. The barrel on mine was supposed to be worn out but just needed cleaning and it is almost a new barrel. Give the barrel a good cleaning and inspect the crown area.

[bruce drake]

I agree with Flounderman. I bought a Winchester made 1914 Pattern Enfield (the 1917's big sister) that the previous owner said was "tired". A several hard scrubbings to remove a bunch of copper fouling and a fresh crown has brought that rifle back to shooting under 3MOA with 147gr pulled Russian 7.62x54R .310 bullets and 46gr of Russian powder from that 7.62x54R spamcan ammo. When I want to shoot past 300 yards, I switch to Sierra 174gr HPBT with 36gr of IMR4895 for the same accuracy.

That 303 British barrel on my P14 uses the same Enfield Rifling and a heavy diet of 303B surplus will burn most Enfield rifle's throats out but my rifle's barrel was replaced in 1936 and then saw use on a Royal Navy ship until it was surplused out and sold to the owner I bought it from used Commercial ammo only. Americans didn't use Cordite in their 30-06 cartridges so your throat should not be eroded unless through hard use and misuse in the past.

Good Luck as those Rifles are quality millwork all the way through. Sorry to hear that the rear ears are ground off. A lot of quality rifles were sporterized in the past.

[Dan Cash]

I would talk to JES or John Taylor and see if the existing barrel could be bored out to .338 and chambered. Open your bolt face and maybe a little magazine work and away you go.

[Mk42gunner]

You can also use a scope base meant for a 336 Marlin on the flat rear bridge, as long as the height lines up with the base you put on the front.

Robert

[lpspinner]

Thanks, all good advice. I like the idea about re-boring the barrel to .338. That would save having to find a barrel and trying to remove it.

I'll look into the 336 Marlin scope base.

I tend to believe the previous owner about being shot out as to the buckets of .30-06 spent brass she gave me. She said they were all shot through the 1917.

[lpspinner]

So something like this?

130494

[ballistim]

I don't know the answer to this but, is it possible for a barrel "shot out" using jacketed loads to still possibly be a good cast bullet shooter with all copper fouling removed and boolits sized to fit the throat/bore size? I do like the idea of sending it to JES for a 338 rebore.

[leadman]

I question if the reinforce section of an original 1917 barrel would be long enough for a 338 Lapua. I have read that the 300 win Mag. is pushing it.
If it was mine I would try shooting it unless you are set on making it a long range jacketed bullet shooter out of it.

[WineMan]

Remember a Highpower shooter's shot out is might mean its not a 1 MOA barrel any more but still shoots 2-3 Minute of Deer pretty well. If a rebarrel is in the cards the CMP has Criterion 30-06 barrels all day long. If you want bigger, get an 8 mm-06, 338-06 or a 35 Whelen. The action is plenty strong to hop them up. The 1917's can be tricky to rebarrel although the cracked receivers may not be the issue some think it is. Just be sure you have someone who has been to the 1917 Rodeo before and has some feel for these old warhorses.

Dave

[Frank46]

I'm with Leadman. There won't be enough metal forward of the large cylindrical portion of the barrel to safely contain the pressures from the 338 lapua magnum. There were stories floating around about the barrel rupturing due to the thinness of the barrel walls. Best get either a heavy target style barrel and play it safe. And Wineman is dead on about being familiar with taking off barrels off the 1917 style actions and they usually are screwed on tight. Best way would be chuck the barreled action in a lathe with the receiver facing the tailstock and using either a cutoff tool or grooving tool about a 1/16th ahead of the receiver make a deep cut all around the barrel. The cut helps removal by releasing the compression stresses made when the barrel is screwed on. Won't crack a receiver ring that way. Remember to strip the receiver of everything including the trigger. Much safer that way. I've done a few mauser and U.S. enfields as I suggested. No problems removing the barrel. used a big pipe wrench with the receiver held in place on a block of stel drilled for 1/4x20 screws and washers. Frank

[lpspinner]

All excellent advice. Wineman, that thought had cross my mined. What's not go for her, might be acceptable to me. I did read up about how tight the barrels can be screwed on and so people start with a relief cut before removing the barrel.

Once I get home from this land of -21° windchill, I'll pull it out of the project pile and check out the barrel. Either way, I might want to have the receiver rounded out. Just for cosmetics.

Leadman does have a valid point to consider. Do they sell .338 Lapua barrels for the 1917? Haven't found any doing a Google search. Or do I need to purchase a blank and have it threaded for the 1917?

[bruce drake]

Call JES and see about reboring the barrel to 8mm-06 or 338-06 or 35 Whelen. Best way to freshen up the barrel if you need to go that route.

[WineMan]

Just because you can, does not mean you should. I have no axe to grind against the 338 L. I am just not sure a rifle designed in 1914 is the right platform for a cartridge designed in the 1990's. There are plenty of 1914's/1917's in lots of hot magnum calibers and the 30-06 case is plenty big to use today's slow powders. I am sure someone can get you the barrel you want in the caliber you want it in. I am just saying that a modern action and trigger might be better for the "ultimate rifle" than a cock on closing, dog leg bolt, non adjustable trigger, action that is 100 years old. I personally would go a different route to a 338L but I would have a 338-06 in something like two seconds with this Centenarian. It sounds like fun no matter which way you go, so have at it!

Dave

[lpspinner]

Dave I appreciate your opinion. I did some more research and it seems the 1917 action is plenty strong for the 338 LM. It seems that prior to the 338LM, a lot of people in the past have been converting them to a 416 Roberts, which is the parent case for the 338LM.

It looks like I can still buy the cock on opening conversion kit and Timney has an adjustable trigger.

I also did some more reading on the 338-06 and while it's a excellent round, I like the fact that I can get a heavier bullet over 3000 fps.

Nothing is set in stone. Once I get home, I'll yank it out and clean up the barrel and see what condition it's in. With my travel schedule for this year, it's going to take a while to build.

[Screwbolts]

Take a look at this, I keep telling myself, I don't need this!


"New M1917 Enfield Barrel. It is chambered for 30-06 Springfield. It looks like a standard Military Contour and is the standard Military length at 26 inches.

Go to ebay do a search it is there, link not coming threw, currently $75

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I don't know the answer to this but, is it possible for a barrel "shot out" using jacketed loads to still possibly be a good cast bullet shooter with all copper fouling removed and boolits sized to fit the throat/bore size? I do like the idea of sending it to JES for a 338 rebore.

Rifles are such contrary beasts that you never know. There is more than one way of being shot out - evenly worn, or concentrated near the throat, smoothly or with a frosted surface, etc. But cast or even more lightly jacketed than most may do this. It is about the most unlikely condition for very heavily jacketed bullets, or solid copper or solid base boat-tails etc., to do well in.

Another possibility, if you can bore it out to 1/2in., would be to line it with the liner Track of the Wolf sell for the .30 Luger. The .311 groove diameter is better than you find in many a No4 Enfield.

[ballistim]

Rifles are such contrary beasts that you never know. There is more than one way of being shot out - evenly worn, or concentrated near the throat, smoothly or with a frosted surface, etc. But cast or even more lightly jacketed than most may do this. It is about the most unlikely condition for very heavily jacketed bullets, or solid copper or solid base boat-tails etc., to do well in.

Another possibility, if you can bore it out to 1/2in., would be to line it with the liner Track of the Wolf sell for the .30 Luger. The .311 groove diameter is better than you find in many a No4 Enfield.

Thanks for answering my question, good to know!

[lpspinner]

Take a look at this, I keep telling myself, I don't need this!


"New M1917 Enfield Barrel. It is chambered for 30-06 Springfield. It looks like a standard Military Contour and is the standard Military length at 26 inches.

Go to ebay do a search it is there, link not coming threw, currently $75

Thanks,

I will try to keep an eye on it, but the closing time is around the same time I land. Depending on how I'm reading the closing time.

[Geppetto]

Dave I appreciate your opinion. I did some more research and it seems the 1917 action is plenty strong for the 338 LM. It seems that prior to the 338LM, a lot of people in the past have been converting them to a 416 Roberts, which is the parent case for the 338LM.

It looks like the 338LM is based upon the 416 rigby. However, the 416 rigby operates at a max pressure of ~47000 psi, vs ~60,000 psi for the 338LM, so you are talking a 22% higher pressure vs the 416. So the bolt thrust of the 416 Rigby is on the order of 12800 lbs, vs 16300 lbs for the 338LM
. All of this in comparison to a bolt thrust of around 10400 lbs for a 30-06. So you pushing 60% greater bolt thrust with the 338LM in comparison to a 30-06. IDK, personally I would be concerned about bolt set back at minimum with that round. Maybe it isn't a concern, but its something I'd vet out before going through the effort of building the rifle.

(NOTE: the above calculations are approximates, I used the base diameter of the cartridge, rather than the internal dimensions out of convenience, so there is some error/slop in the numbers.)

[Screwbolts]

"Thanks,

I will try to keep an eye on it, but the closing time is around the same time I land. Depending on how I'm reading the closing time. "


You can put your max bid on it anytime, and if someone wants it more than you just say goodby.

[lpspinner]

Dave...are there any pressure studies done on the 1917 receiver? I know P.O Ackley done some testing, but don't know if he covered this model.

Screwbolts....yes, I'll keep an eye on it during my layover. I normally like to wait till the end to not force my hand on having to pay too much or not enough. ;)

[W.R.Buchanan]

lpspinner: goto http://hammertap.auctionstealer.com/secure/login.cfm?timeout=yes

Sign up and place a bid that you are comfortable with .. the tool will drop your bid in 10-20 seconds before the end of the auction, and will only bid it up high enough to beat any other bids, and not to exceed your max.

You will find out if you got the item or not at your convenience, by email.

No need to sit and watch an auction. This tool does it for you.

On another note: Unless you are a really big boy I would rethink the idea if converting this gun to a caliber such as you describe. There is a price to pay on the back end of those guns and it will be anything but pleasant to shoot. It will be even harder to sell if you want to get rid of it.

I would suggest either .375 or .400 Whelen as a easy conversion. Whereas either of these other calibers will not reach 3000 fps you will be able to pull the trigger twice in a row without having to recalibrate your eyeballs.

Randy

[lpspinner]

So I finally had time to pull it out and look at it. There's surface rust from a moist cold garage. Nothing a little fine steel wool won't take care of.

I originally thought this was a Remington M1917, but it's really a Winchester M1917. Here are some pictures.

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c277/lpspinner/Winchester%20M1917-1_zpsh0cisg65.jpg


As you can see the ears have been milled off and surface rust is present.
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c277/lpspinner/Winchester%20M1917-2_zpssbgsp0ut.jpg

Another shot to compare the height of the front and rear of the receiver.
http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c277/lpspinner/Winchester%20M1917-3_zps8lwz01rj.jpg

[lpspinner]

OK, I had a little time to do a little more research. In regards to Bolt Thurst, would that be the thrust against the bolt face or against the lugs?

If it's against the bolt face, then would a 338 case distribute the thurst over a greater surface as the diameter is slightly larger then that of a 30-06?

As for PSI, I looked up some pressures in the latest Hodgden manual. In the .338-06 180grs, most of the pressure are in the 60K+ range, the 30-06 rounds using a medium weight (180gr) bullets, pressures are in the high 40 to mid 50k's. the 338 LM is in the upper 50's +

These are max pressure, so starting or normal shooting rounds would be less.

No I'm not a big guy, just an average 200lb person. I figured a good muzzle brake would eat up some of the felt recoil.

[Geppetto]

As I understand it, and someone please correct me if I am wrong:

Bolt thrust is the force that the cartridge exerts on the bolt face, which in turn is the thrust that the locking lugs secure. So the total bolt thrust is a product of the area that the pressure of the cartridge is being applied to. So the bolt thrust increases with an increased case diameter. Ultimately the interior dimensions of the case are the area that the pressure is applied to. So your statement of "would a 338 case distribute the thurst over a greater surface as the diameter is slightly larger then that of a 30-06?" is incorrect, because it is pressure, not load. So with a greater area, the same PSI results in greater total load. That's how hydraulics work.

In theory the brass will expand and stick in the chamber, which reduces total bolt thrust, but I wouldn't count on that happening. If the brass or chamber becomes oiled, then the brass may not stick in the chamber at all. As I see it, if you are building the rifle, you have to assume that at some point you, or your kid, or your neighbor could put a full bore factory load in it, so it should be able to handle it. (that's just my personal opinion! Lots of people have trapdoors and marlins and haven't blown themselves up yet).

For further reading, the wikipedia link on bolt thrust is a reasonable resource. From all of the research and reading I've done for various rifles and caliber conversions, the bolt thrust should be one of the primary concerns for changing to a substantially different caliber. The pressure of most rifle rounds is similar, but the thrust is a primary factor in the suitability of the action. The following is worth reading also and pertinent to the discussion. http://www.eabco.com/WSM01.htm

I hope the above was useful, and didn't just cause more confusion.

[M-Tecs]

Lilja has good info on bolt thrust

http://www.riflebarrels.com/articles/custom_actions/bolt_lug_strength.htm


Bolt Thrust

Bolt thrust is easy to calculate. Only two inputs are required. They are peak chamber pressure in PSI and as mentioned, the inside area of the case head that the gas pressure can work on. The formula then is:
THRUST=AREA*CPSI Where:
AREA=3.1416*(HS/2)^2
HS=the diameter of the inside of the case head.

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

Some suggestions for you:

1. Buy, borrow or rent gauges to check the barrel wear and identify exactly what you've got. A good gunsmith should have these and so do many of the collectors of US WWII M1's, 1903's and M1917's, should you should be able to find a set reasonably easy.
2. Look at the crown/muzzle under good light and see if it's damaged in any way.
3. Clean the barrel good with Ed's Red and with copper removing solvents, get any and all crud out of there and see what the lands look like.
4. Load up some quality reloads with a 175 grain match bullet and see how she shoots of a locked down rest like a lead sled. Just point at a big paper target at 100, don't move the gun at all and squeeze off 5 rounds.

Once the barrel is thoroughly assessed:

1. If the barrel needs replacement, investigate the cost of the various options offered here.
2. Start with the CMP Criterion barrel. Those Criterion barrels are excellent and the CMP can parkerize the rifle for you while they install the barrel very affordably. This is assuming they will take on a sporter. They would know how to remove and install a barrel on a M1917.
3. Investigate all other options, getting pricing as you go.
4. While you're investigating getting the work done, get pricing on the refinishing as well.
5. BTW, about the scope mounts and the flat rear receiver. A gunsmith with a milling machine should be able to handle that easily in a couple different ways. I would follow what he suggests. She likely kept the rear receiver flat to make it easier for her to mount a mechanical peep sight.

You may find the costs will dictate which way you go.

[pacomdiver]

one thing you need to remember if your shooting a 338 lapua with a brake is "keep your mouth open when you pull the trigger", the concussion will give you an instant headache if you dont. I found this out the first few shots I took with mine. no one wants to be within 25 feet of me when I shoot mine

I have 2 1917 sporters I saved that have heavy barrels on them now, ones a 300 win mag for long range and a 300 wsm for my wife