Worn barrel accuracy in Win 94

[Bear Tooth Billy]

I recently bought a 94 Winchester mfd. in 1903, 30/30 caliber in good condition. I loaded some rounds with 4895, 20,22,24 grains
and shot it. It shot very bad, 18-24" group at 50 yds. I then slugged it and it measured .304",312". I talked to my gunsmith about
relining it and that doesn't sound very practical, he suggested trying to use a bigger bullet to fill the grooves, I used a .310". I next
loaded some more rounds with 20,18,and 16 grs, and it shot much better 3" at 50 yds, but still not what I want. I am wondering
is a .312 or .313 fn bullet available?, Will a larger bullet loaded in a 30/30 fit in the chamber? I have a Lyman M expander die, do they
make a larger plug for it, say .312? and last, a .312" will not fit through my Lee seating die, but I could ream that to .3125. Any help
and suggestions will be appreciated.

BTB

[largom]

Try shooting boolits "as cast" with out sizing. Some of my 30 cal. moulds drop at .311
Also what is your alloy? What lube? How clean is bore?

Larry

[KLR]

Have it rebored to 35 caliber. http://35caliber.com/

Forgot to mention - Measure your chamber to be sure you can chamber a bullet that large. You may not have enough clearance at the neck.

[Scharfschuetze]

There are 314 and 316 diameter moulds for 30 calibre rifles, but these are generally meant for military rifles like the 303 or 7.7 Jap. Perhaps NOE can make you a custom 314 diameter version of the Lyman 311041 or similar 30/30 boolit. That would be your easiest and most inexpensive fix. The mould and a suitable sizing die (.314 would be a good guess) shouldn't cost you more than $150.

For a larger expander plug, Buckshot, a member here, can make up what you need with a fairly fast turn around time.

A short term fix would be to use a 32/20 boolit design in the 115 or 120 grain range and size it above your groove diameter as much as possible. They usually drop out of a mould at .313 or .314 depending on alloy. My Model 94 with pristine bore handles these 32/20 boolits quite well when sized to .312" so they should work well in your worn bore better than what you've so far experienced.

[John Taylor]

I have relined many 30-30s. The original twist rate is 1 in 12" and the only liner is 1 in 10". You could also have it rebored to 32 special or 38-55 or relined to 32-40.

[Outpost75]

John relined a worn-out .30-30 for me to .35/.30-30 which is one of the best ever cast bullet rounds, splitting the difference between the .32-40 and the .38-55. In photo below are, at left the .30-30, center a .35 Remington for comparison and at right the .35/.30-30. I use an LBT 260-grain bullet with a compressed nominal caseful, about 30 grains of 4895, 4064, RL15 or Varget for about 1600 fps as a hunting load, and 8 grains of Bullseye for a recreational plinker with either 200- or 260 grain plainbased bullets. VERY satisfying outfit. My relined barrel has a twist of 16 inches, the same as the .35 Remington, and I use .35 Remington load data, just staying a bit off the max. loads.

If your original barrel is worn enough to keyhole with jacketed bullets, I don't hold much hope for anything resembling "normal" accuracy with cast, even with a larger diameter bullet, because you will run into a too-tight neck condition and run pressure up before finding a bullet which is "large enough." The older nickel steel Winchester barrels are harder to get good interior bore finish on a rebore, and relining is the best solution.

130354

[dubber123]

You may have to neck turn your brass, or open up the neck portion of your chamber IF it is too tight to allow a larger boolit. I shoot .312" boolits from my Savage 30-30. MUCH better accuracy than a smaller boolit will produce. Load a round with a larger boolit and see if it chambers freely.

[Bear Tooth Billy]

Thanks for the suggestions so far. I bought some Oregon trail .310" bullets that I've tried, I tried to get a neck clearance
measurement, with a dummy round loaded with the .310 bullet it chambers, I wrapped 1 wrap of .001" tape around the
neck and then it won't chamber, so maybe an oversize bullet won't fit. J.T. how much does it cost to reline a 30/30, versus
opening up the neck portion of the chamber. This gun is in pretty nice shape, so I'm not sure if I want to change calibers

[MT Chambers]

Try a gas checked .311 or .312" bullet in your 30/30, and by the way all three of those cartridges look great.

[flounderman]

Check the muzzle. Guns that have a worn muzzle from cleaning or carrying in the truck and getting grit in the barrel and shooting it won't shoot. You can recrown and they go back to shooting, or bore the end of the barrel like some of the old military barrels were done. Before you do anything check the muzzle area.

[cowboybart]

Have it rebored to 35 caliber. http://35caliber.com/

Forgot to mention - Measure your chamber to be sure you can chamber a bullet that large. You may not have enough clearance at the neck.

+1
Make it a 32 Special or 356Win/35 Rem

[dubber123]

If you are into "experimenting" and have the rebore/reline option as a back up, you can try this: My brothers 30-30 shot better with a .312' boolit, but his dies wouldn't allow the seating of that large a projectile. We drilled and tapped a 30-30 case, (1/4-20 I believe), threaded a bolt into the hole to allow the attachment of a drill, and put a small dab of 320 valve grinding compound on the neck portion only. We spun this in the die, periodically cleaning and replacing the compound. Soon he had a seating die that worked with the larger boolits. The same could likely be accomplished with your chamber, for nearly free. Barrel steel is likely softer than reloading dies, so it may be easier to accomplish as well. Just a thought.

[D Crockett]

I don't know how this would work but what about paper patching the bullets just a thought D Crockett

[TXGunNut]

Welcome to the forum, BTB. So many good possibilities, no bad choices.
1. As is. Wallhanger. Boring but will keep the purists happy.
2. Reline. You'll wind up with a fine 30-30, probably better than it ever was.
3. Rebore. Now we're talking! Life may begin at 40 but cast boolits start getting interesting (for me) at around .32. Options include the 32WS (reline?), 35-30, 356 Win, 38-55 and a few others.
4. Shoot j-words. Some ugly bores simply won't shoot boolits but they might shoot condom bullets. Personally I'd rather go with option 1 than shoot j-words.

[w30wcf]

I recently bought a 94 Winchester mfd. in 1903, 30/30 caliber in good condition. I loaded some rounds with 4895, 20,22,24 grains
and shot it. It shot very bad, 18-24" group at 50 yds. I then slugged it and it measured .304",312". I talked to my gunsmith about
relining it and that doesn't sound very practical, he suggested trying to use a bigger bullet to fill the grooves, I used a .310". I next
loaded some more rounds with 20,18,and 16 grs, and it shot much better 3" at 50 yds, but still not what I want. I am wondering
is a .312 or .313 fn bullet available?, Will a larger bullet loaded in a 30/30 fit in the chamber? I have a Lyman M expander die, do they
make a larger plug for it, say .312? and last, a .312" will not fit through my Lee seating die, but I could ream that to .3125. Any help
and suggestions will be appreciated.

BTB

BTB,
Welcome to the forum. In answer to your questions:
Yes, oversized bullet molds are available. Some of the older Lyman molds made oversized bullets but these days www.accuratemolds.com (http://www.accuratemolds.com) will make you a mold to the diameter of your choosing.

A larger bullet may or may not fit the chamber. Depends on the rifle. I have a couple of older M'94's and I typically shoot .311" diameter bullets in them with no problems.

An "M" plug for the .32-20 will expand the neck to fit a larger bullet.

If the seating stem in your seating die will extend far enough with the die backed out so that there is no interference with the larger case neck, that would work. I have to do that with oversized bullets in my .44-40.

What bullet were you using? Gas Checked?

If it were my rifle, I would certainly explore the larger bullet option before I even thought about a reline or rebore.

w30wcf

[slughammer]

Lyman makes a 31 caliber M die, I have one and it works well for boolits where the 30 caliber M die lets off. The box for mine is labeled 31 Long and it works well for 30/30 length brass.

are the Oregon trail boolits gas checked? With the oversize bore and groove I wouldn't hold much hope for them.

Measuring a piece of brass that has been annealed and fired will give you a good idea of the size boolit you can seat and chamber.

Perhaps a mold for 303 Brit to get the larger nose or go the custom route. If there is rifling in the barrel, you just need a boolit to match.

[MaLar]

I may have a win 94 30-30 take off barrel from guns I have converted to 38-55.
If your interested I'll go look.
LaMar

[Bear Tooth Billy]

Thanks for the welcome, ever since I was a kid I loved the old west history. About 15 years ago I joined NCOWS and really got into
shooting and reloading, mostly 44/40 for cowboy shooting, and 45/90 long range (1000 yds), recently all with the Holy black.
One of the old west characters I have researched was Tom Horn, I have collected a few guns that are similar to what he used
30/30 being my latest, and his last. The boolets (see I'm learning)!! I have loaded have no gas checks, gas checks and jacketed
are not allowed in ncows competition. I got some 32/20 samples .312", but they're pretty short, I don' know if they will stabilize
at longer ranges. I' going to hone out my seating die so the larger size will fit through, also I'm going to thread a piece
of brass and try to open up the neck of the chamber .003". Is there any place to get a few sample boolets .313" and
about 165 gr., I really don't want to buy a custom made mold not knowing if this will even work. Lastly, can I buy just
the larger expander for my Lyman M die.

[TXGunNut]

Lastly, can I buy just
the larger expander for my Lyman M die. -BTB

Yes, Track of the Wolf has or will make almost any size you need. If not in stock takes only a week or two to make one. We have forum members that make them too, IIRC. Check out the Swapping & Selling section.

[w30wcf]

BTB,
"No gas checks" - that, at least in part is the reason for the non accuracy at the higher charge weights of 4895 that you were using.
The .32-20 bullets should shoot aok but not with 4895. If you have some Trailboss, 6 grs. would work well.
I have shot a similar combination out to 200 yards and accuracy was still pretty good.

I can send you some .313" cast bullets if you PM me your address.

If you call Lyman, they can sell you just the expander button.

w30wcf

[John Taylor]

Thanks for the suggestions so far. I bought some Oregon trail .310" bullets that I've tried, I tried to get a neck clearance
measurement, with a dummy round loaded with the .310 bullet it chambers, I wrapped 1 wrap of .001" tape around the
neck and then it won't chamber, so maybe an oversize bullet won't fit. J.T. how much does it cost to reline a 30/30, versus
opening up the neck portion of the chamber. This gun is in pretty nice shape, so I'm not sure if I want to change calibers

Reline to 30-30 or any of the other calibers for a 94 would be $425.