.38 Special Expansion Question

[Low Budget Shooter]

Please help me figure out something.

I've been experimenting for years to get a good homemade expanding lead hollowpoint load for my aluminum-frame .38 special snubbies. I'm working with a power level lower than +p in order not to lose control while shooting, and for the long-term health of my old Colts. I've come up with two bullets that work great, at the maximum recoil I can control well. Here they both are after being fired through two layers denim into wet paper:

130270

130364

The one on the left is a 358477 hollowpointed by Erik Ohlen, 142 grains at about 820 fps.

The one on the right is a MP HBWC, 155 grains at about 720 fps.

Expansion is similar, and penetration is similar.

I know there's not a whole lot of difference here, but, given a choice, which one would you prefer for self defense, the one 10% faster, or the one 10% heavier?

Thanks!

LBS

[gtgeorge]

What kind of penetration are you getting? With light low velocity loads I would think you would want less expansion. Unless you are getting good penetration but I would think those would be prone to stopping short.

[Low Budget Shooter]

gtgeorge, you are right, of course. If I could nail expansion of .45" to .50" penetration would be better. But I find that the cavity has to be a certain depth, about .2" or more, in order to expand passing through denim. If the cavity is that deep, the bullet will expand to about .60 caliber when not passing through denim. So I think that is about the minimum.

I'm working with wet paper, not 10% gel, so I'm not sure exactly what gel-equivalent penetration I'm getting. But combining all my results with everything I've read, I think I'm getting the equivalent of about 10" to 12".

[rintinglen]

Assuming EQUAL accuracy, I'd load the 142 grain and never look back. That extra hundred feet per second translates into greater energy, which ought to give you more tissue damage, should you ever find yourself in "the gravest extreme," which I presume is the purpose of this exercise. However, I would not trade accuracy for expansion. The ability to shoot straight is worth more than pure power.
I once was part of an investigation where the shooter had only the hand, arm and a piece of the head of the victim to shoot at. Even at 6-8 feet, when confronted by a small target, confidence in one's arm becomes a valuable ally.

[C. Latch]

I have HP molds for pretty much every pistol I carry, but I stick with factory ammo - not for legal reasons, but simply because factories have the means of making a repeatable, consistent product. I do not. My next batch of bullets may not expand as well due to small changes in alloy, or a hundred other tiny changes. I have came to expect repeatable performance from factory ammo over the years. A few boxes of self-defense ammo are cheap insurance.

[Screwbolts]

I would feel comfy with either in the wheel.

C. Latch has many good points, I just struggle with ammo that some machine made. Can it really be trusted? My hope is to never need it, but I choose a non HP any way.

Ken

[Hickok]

Seeing they are performing equal, go with the heavier weight.

[Shooter6br]

What alloy? I use 20-1 or 25-1 for 850-1000fps in 45ACP and 38 Special +P. I agree on use of factory HP's for self defense. With that said i use wadcutters in my 638 (38 Special +P) on occasion

[Outpost75]

Wet paper is more resistant than soft tissue or bare gel. Try shooting some of your loads into water-filled paper milk cartons. If they expand AND penetrate more than 20 inches of water you are OK. Water penetration is greater than gel. You want at least 20" of water or 12" of 10% gel.

[Petrol & Powder]

If they both shoot similar groups and to the point of aim, I'd pick the one that consistently penetrates farther, even if that extra penetration was slight. With short barreled revolvers penetration is key, expansion is only the icing on the cake. The projectile must be capable of reaching something important when it strikes its target. Expansion improves the performance but is secondary when you are trying to quickly stop a threat. I would assume the slightly heavier round would penetrate more and would probably shoot closer to the P.O.A. with fixed sights regulated to 158gr bullets. I might even reduce the size of the hollow point in an effort to gain a little more penetration at that velocity.

[gtgeorge]

I would want the heavier weight as well if they both are similar in accuracy and recoil. If something slows expansion or causes it to fail to open the penetration would be there anyhow.

[Animal]

I'm a fan of heavy bullets, so I'd go with that. But, let me ask you this... If neither bullet were to expand, which one would you feel the most comfortable using? Who can assume hollowpoints will always expand? I like slugs that expand, but I like to know that the expansion is purely an added bonus. I'd feel more confident in the bullet that is more likely to get the job done in the event that expansion does not occur. For this reason, I find myself leaning toward the .44spl revolver and the .45acp 1911. Yet, at nice heavy slug from a .38spl is a deadly beast.

Simply put, go with the bullet/load that is more likely to do damage without expansion.

[Low Budget Shooter]

I sure do appreciate all the information and opinions---thanks!

[Petrol & Powder]

Animal has the correct view. One must assume the bullet will not expand. If it does expand, that's great and assuming it penetrates far enough, it will do more damage if it does expand. However expansion should be a secondary goal of terminal performance.
Despite all of the pundits that proclaim that all handgun calibers should start with "4"; the 38 special is a very respectable self defense cartridge with a long track record. People who say, "I'd rather have [fill in the blank] ....are only seeking to debate and not assist. That being said, the 38 Special seems to do its best work right around the classic bullet weight of 158gr. That's not just dogmatic thinking, that bullet weight remained the standard for over 100 years for a reason.
Given the OP's parameters of; Standard pressure, alloy framed, short barreled revolver - I'd say he is clearly on the correct path. The 150-160 grain 38 Special bullet strikes an excellent balance between penetration, recoil and accuracy.
The only suggestion I would make to the OP would be to consider a carry load that was equal in all elements except pressure. A slightly hotter carry load that is known to shoot the same point of aim as your practice load may have some advantage. I'm not talking about upper end +P but maybe a bit more than his 720 fps for a carry load.

[bhn22]

What do the bullets look like before firing? My position is pretty much the same as Animals, if the bullet doesn't expand for some reason, what it the base bullet for like? I'm experimenting with Ideal 358156HP (145 gr), and Ideal 358439 (160 gr), myself. I need to do some expansion testing. My J frame is a steel .357, so I don't have the limitations you do, but if all else is acceptable with both designs, and both designs are accurate, and shoot to the sights, the tie breaker would be the unfired bullet form.

[Low Budget Shooter]

Fellars, thanks for all the replies so far.

In answer to the last couple questions, I added pics and descriptions of the unfired bullets to the original post. Expansion, penetration, accuracy, and recoil are all very close to the same. These two loads were arrived at as the most recoil I could handle without starting to lose good accuracy.

Shootr6br, I'm using SOWW for alloy.

P&P, I sure would like to use more power, like the tried-and-true recipes of a 158-grain load at 850 fps, or a 125-grain load at 900 fps, but I have found I'm too much of a sissie for it from a 15-oz gun! I've worked up these loads until adding a bit more powder leaves me shooting poorly.

FWIW, I have also tried using a heavier gun, so I could use a heavier caliber, like .45 ACP, or a more powerful .38 load, but my finicky lower back quickly informed me that one pound of gun is the limit!

[Petrol & Powder]

I'm not suggesting you beat up the gun or yourself in practice but for a carry load, the gun will take 6 rounds at 750-800fps.
Now that I'm looking at the unfired rounds, I might stay with the SWC for ease of use with a speedloader.
Based on post # 3, I'd say you've done your homework!

[Certaindeaf]

"Wet paper" don't do it. Assume they won't expand at all, because they won't. Go with a full caliber "cutter" that'll tumble once it hits.

[Petrol & Powder]

LBS - I've been pondering your two bullets and given the expansion you're getting at 820 fps with that 142 grain HP 358477, I'm going to change my input and say that's a better choice. IF you're getting equal penetration with those two projectiles, I think the SWC design will not only be more speed loader friendly but it will also retain more weight, be more accurate and deliver more energy than that reverse loaded WC. I find it difficult to believe that reverse WC with its lower velocity and larger frontal area is penetrating the same distance as that SWC traveling faster. The WC is slightly heavier but that large frontal area should reduce penetration. I experimented with reverse loaded WC's and found they were not only extremely inaccurate but had very poor penetration.
With the hollow pointed SWC, you've basically made a non +P duplicate of the Remington R38S12 [FBI load] with that bullet. In fact, now that you've provided an image of that unfired bullet, I'd say that it is almost a perfect copy of the soft lead bullet used in the classic FBI load.
820 fps out of a snub nose is respectable and it sounds like that is an acceptable practice load for you. I still say that you could up the charge weight just slightly for a carry load. It would likely still shoot the same point of aim and have just a little bit more energy.
You clearly have put a lot of time into this and I commend you for your methods.
Not for nothing, but the factory "FBI Load" is an outstanding choice for the 38 snub nose and despite its +P designation, it's not that bad to shoot. The current Remington HTP load is the same as the old R38S12 "FBI Load" and is available.

[Low Budget Shooter]

P&P, thank you very much for giving my issue so much of your attention.

Yes, I have been trying to make "FBI Load Lite." For me, I have not been able to shoot accurately with the Remington FBI load or anything that powerful out of my 15-oz snubbies. I've tried different stocks and different ways to grip, and lots of practice. But after quite a bit of work on it, there is still a very marked difference in my accuracy when I'm shooting 158 grains at 850 fps versus when I'm shooting something a bit lighter. So I set out to make a load that would use a similar but lighter bullet at a similar but slightly slower velocity. I worked primarily from Fryxell's article on the 358477 converted to HP, but I made some changes to his hollowpoint specifications---my cavity is slightly wider, .160 instead of .150, and shallower, .25 instead of .35. The result is a bullet that will expand very readily at 800 fps, but not more than about .58 caliber.

As to the HBWC bullet, I've worked from an article by Mike Cumpston http://www.milesfortis.com/mcump/mc01.htm I was initially getting way too much expansion and shallow penetration. Then I machined the HP pin from .25 down to .20. The bullet then quit expanding out to .75 and mushroomed at about .62. Repeated tests have shown the 155 gr HBWC getting almost identical penetration with the 142 gr SWCHP. My testing procedure is too rough for much precision, but they consistently stay close to each other. I normally shoot through t-shirt, two layers jeans, and four layers jeans. Through t-shirt, HBWC is usually a little deeper. Through 2 layers denim, SWCHP is usually deeper. Through 4 layers denim, they equalize. Both loads mushroom nicely in t-shirt and 2 layers denim, then expand to .50+ but not completely mushroom through 4 layers denim. I find this all very interesting, and would like to understand better how all the variables work together.

As to HBWC accuracy, one son and I shot the HBWC backward load out to 25 yards and had no accuracy problem or tumbling. I have read that HBWC backward accuracy problems do not begin until up above 800 fps or so. I don't know why. The SWCHP load is also accurate.

As to speedloaders, you are absolutely right that I wouldn't want to fumble with WC trying to reload in a self-defense scenario. But I suppose I would load the HBWC in the guns, then carry something else for reloads.

At present I can't tell which way to go, so I'm asking advice.

Thanks again!

LBS

[1Shirt]

Agree with Hichcock!
1Shirt!

[Animal]

I'm really diggin your hollowpoint bullets. Nicely done. I'd like to try casting a few some day, but I'm afraid I'll have more trouble getting a good cast than I care to work for. It seems like the learning curve is pretty steep.
I'm considering casting soft, full wadcutters for my .44special. I'd like to keep the cylinder full of wadcutters and have roundnose/TC standing by on speedloaders.

[Low Budget Shooter]

Thank you, Animal. .44 special wadcutters are pretty big already, aren't they!?

[Forrest r]

Just another opinion:

I cast both of those bullets (mihec 148g hbwc/358477 hp) & have done some testing with both of them in a 2" bbl's snub nosed 38spl.

The real difference I've seen with those bullets is when they open/expand. For that reason I use/carry swc/640 style hp's in the winter (ohio) when there's multiple layers of clothing involved. And the backward hbwc when it's hot/summer/t-shirt weather.

Both bullets have pretty much the same overall penetration.
The hbwc opens quicker & leaves a larger wound channel as it's heavier weight/momentum pushes the expanded bullet the same depth as the 358477 hp.
The swc hp will penetrate better but will also open later. This makes a smaller wound channel because the bullet is open with less penetration & any speed advantage is lost because the bullet is slowed by the initial penetration. The hp opens and the lighter bullet slows quicker then then the heavier hbwc making the oal penetration the same as the heavier hbwc.

At the end of the day it comes down to how much material the bullet has to go thru to get to the meat & potatoes.

The best of both worlds, jacketed hbwc's shot from snub nosed 38spl's & 44psl's that have bonded cores. The brass case acts like a cookie cutter easily cutting holes in leather/cloth and then expanding with slicing talons. These things flat out are devastating on anything they get a hold of.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/firedtop.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/firedtop.jpg.html)

A 220g hbwc shot from a snub nosed 44spl for comparison.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/44hbwcaround.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/44hbwcaround.jpg.html)

[Low Budget Shooter]

Forrest, thanks for that good info. I concur with your analysis of what's happening regarding the HBWC vs. SWCHP expansion pattern. I don't think I knew there is such a thing as a jacketed HBWC!

[MtGun44]

477 for me.

Which one shoots to the sights at 25yds or some other distance of interest?

Bill

[Low Budget Shooter]

Fellars, I appreciate very much the informed opinions given here. I finally made my decision on the fact that the 142-grain load shoots right to the sights at 7 yards, where the 155-grain load shoots a bit above. Thanks for all the help.

[mnewcomb59]

Have you given any thought to light for caliber flat nose? If the goal is to minimize recoil, lighter bullets are the way to go in a revolver. At equal foot pounds, the lighter bullet is snappy but quick recoil and the heavy bullet really cranks on your wrist and hand bones for an extended period of time and tips the muzzle up.

Hornady sells a Critical Defense Lite in 38 special. It is 90 grains and known for light recoil good velocity, but terrible underpenetration. Try the Lee 95-RF for a WIDE meplat and a good 20 inches of gel penetration at 900-1000 fps.

Using Veral Smith's charts from his book, you could expect a half inch wide permanent stretch cavity with this meplat and velocity. Using Youtube 380 FMJ videos you could expect around 22 inches of penetration. The permanent stretch cavity will extend approximately one third of the depth into the wound, then a pin hole afterwards till the bullet stops. I expect this bullet would penetrate slightly less than most 380 stuff because the meplat is so dang wide.

So you have quality bonded hollow points at 14 inches of penetration, this little Lee bullet at 22", and 158 SWC that penetrates almost 3 foot.

The light for caliber wide flat point is the best non-expanding defensive bullet, splitting the difference between heavy for caliber hollow points and heavy for caliber solids. If a 158 SWC and this 95 RF were started at the same foot pounds, the 95 RF would do much more damage to the first 20" of a block of gel, potentially using all of it's energy while the 158 would have a narrower wound channel and might have 100 foot pounds left when it exits.

Remember, central nervous system is the only instant stop. A moderately high penetrating bullet at 18-24" would still have enough speed left to break a spine for an instant stop compared to a shallow penetrating hollow point that might come to rest against it without breaking it.

I'm not worried about the little Lee bullet under penetrating because there is video proof that this bullet weight and type penetrates further than your average hollow point. I'm not worried about over penetration because it will probably get caught by the skin and clothes on the back, or come out slingshot hard.