Shortest 410 round?

[Smithy]

Howdy folks: Figured that here was as good a place to ask??? Do any of you know the history behind the 410 shotshell and what length shell was first produced and how many shell lengths were there as well as what lengths are presently commercially available for the 410 shotgun. I've got a project in mind and was looking for a shorter length hull/chamber to produce a solid lead slug (with the wadding attached and acting as a directional vane) to easily load a bunch of rounds for plinking and hunting. With only one item to place in the hull, loading will be loads quicker than building up loads with various cork, felt, over-etc. wads. Prime, powder, place slug, and roll crimp, done.

Might end up being a short range deer brush gun in the end, but I have no expectations whatsoever, just killing time in my retirement/disability. All I presently know about are the 2.5 and the 3 inch hulls. 12 gauge on the other hand I've seen in 2.75, 3, and 3.5 inch variations plus another shorter than all hull (not sure the length on this one) made by some company of shotgun ammo to increase magazine capacity only. (kind of what I'm doing on the 410) Any and all help would be appreciated and I love history lessons especially on stuff I know not a thing about as this example illustrates. Smithy.

[TheCelt]

interesting idea!! Shortest .410 round I am aware of is 2.5" but I have some 12ga slug and shotshell rounds that are 1.75". All you need is the powder charge and slug in a wad/sabot so there's no reason you couldn't make a .175" .410 round as well. Used to be the Winchester 1300 was the only pump that would feed the shorter rounds reliably but I understand the KSG does as well.

Good luck Smitty!!! Sounds like an interesting project!

[Patrick56]

Why not take a closer look at the European 32 gauge?

[Smithy]

Why not take a closer look at the European 32 gauge? Just like my Raging Bull in 44 magnum. Made in Brazil and totally metric down to the very smallest screw, YUCK. I managed to strip one side plate screw (the one that has a pin to hold the cylinder in the gun and the second fell and hit my shoe and now is who knows where. I cannot take my SAE replacement screws to effect a replacement. Nope, the replacement has to come from BrazTech whom then will order them from the plant in Brazil and in 90 days if I'm lucky, I'll have my replacements. I'd rather have a shell that I can get components straight from any US supplier. Smithy.

[220]

2" shells while no where near as available as 2.5 or 3" are still made, Eley would be the most available 2" loads here in Aus.

[gunarea]

Hey Smithy
410 is a favorite of mine and I have done a bit of custom work reloading them. Biggest challenge is the crimp. Simply cutting off hulls to desired length is easy. Then trim with a Lyman case trimmer to square up and I hit it with a deburring tool. For really short shells, scissors will cut wad petals plenty good enough. To do a punkin ball, I use either a 38 caliber round ball or a 124gr. 9mm slug. Even cheap hulls not generally considered good for reloading are very acceptable for my punkin ball loads. These loads were developed for a couple small young boys determined to hunt but just a little intimidated by the force of standard loads. Several hundred rounds were loaded after they showed me their confidence in shooting them. A Savage 410/22 combo did best with the 9mm slug. Two other guns used were a Mossberg pump and a NEF Handi. I was a bit surprised at how well the pump functioned with these short rounds. The pump and the NEF did not have sights so comparisons for accuracy had no merit. Loaded with Alliant 2400 made noise level acceptable for young ears in the woods with no muffs on. One kid got a rabbit and unbelievably one shot a turkey in the head. His dad was witness to the called shot and neither used the Savage with sights. Load development is slow and tedious with very little guidance from anywhere. Here is my tip when plunging into reloading 410, top of the line reloading equipment is mandatory for quality results. Best of skill to you.
Roy

[kenyerian]

Here is a link about reloading the 410 using brass made from .303 British cases, .444 Marlin brass, or for full length 3" cases, 9.3 x 74R brass '
http://www.endtimesreport.com/410reloading.html.

[220]

I played with a few solid combinations and gave up in the end, couldn't get anything to group consistently.
Played with a few SG buck loads, 5 SG in a 3" hull have over 1000fpe at the muzzle, in my gun they will stay inside a 8-10" circle at 25m, better than I can get solids to shoot. 2.5 will hold 4 SG and there is a bit of data about for various hull/wad combinations in both 2.5 & 3".

I have some 9.3x74r cases I formed but keep them for black powder shot loads.

[Smithy]

I spent a considerable amount of funds and sacrificed a number of otherwise good quality reloading tools in an attempt to load brass cased 410 loads. In the end I simply chose spent 410 plastic hulls with the 209 primer as it's intended priming source. It's much much easier to load these hulls and apply a roll crimp rather than finding the correct metallic tool to do the job (ended up being a sizing die, minus the deprime punch of a Remington 7mm magnum). The mouth of the hull hits the center of the shoulder section and provides a nice roll crimp. Less forgiving to the load column than the plastic hull so the plastic hull won out. With it I can simply add a nitro card was (or take one out) and the load is perfected. Again, I resize on a mec resizing station and then with an anvil set for my single stage press I prime and insert the hull into a P&W resizing die. Then the load in placed in by hand and the roll crimp is applied all the while the hull is in the PW size die. After crimping the finished hull is removed from the sizing die and put into the loaded shell box. The realization to use the PW size die was the key. It was the glue that binds all of the rest of the loading together and works like a champ. Smithy.

[groovy mike]

Standard commercial 410 is longer than British empire milsurp for the Enfield 410 musket. It is basically a straight walled 303 British case and there IS some surplus on the market right now.

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

in a local shop there is a enfield reamed out to make it a 410 shotgun but to short to take 2 1/2 inch shells I suspect they used 303 brass blown out then loaded as a 410 short of sorts , some of fast burning powder , cream of wheat and a plug of lube to hold it in should get it to fire form nicely from fired 303 brass

[Smithy]

Well folks all the gear is now in place and functioning. My little chop saw from Harbor Freight is the hull cut off tool with a 3/4" schedule 8 washer cut into and silver soldered into the base of the saw. I then cut a notch into the top of the washer to allow passage of my introducer pin (lack of anything else to call it). I got a Hornady #11 shell holder (the one for 303 British) and that was a mistake. I just didn't have time or excess money to get another 410 shell holder from Buffalo Arms. The headspace on the 303 holder is perfect and rim diameter. Hull base diameter however is off bad. The hull will NOT enter the holder. So now I have kind of a squared opening as I took my diamond cutting blade of my Dremel to grind back the edge facing the hull's base diameter. This one got polished up and doesn't look too bad. The hull is placed into the shell holder and a drift pin is placed into and through the shell holder and primer pocket of the hull. I then slide the spring off a Mec repriming cup over the 410 hull and place the spring against the vise of the cutter and the other end of the shell holder is held against the schedule 8 washer making each and every round the same. The vise is held open and tightened against a cut piece of 5/8" tubing that fits into the vises grooves into each of its jaws. This elevates the hull to the same height as the rim/shell holder height at the other end. With the spring holding everything in place a quick pull of the Harbor Freight cut off tool, cleanly shortens the hull to just a tad over the 2" mark. With the initial and subsequent roll crimping of the hulls a finished 2" hull length is quickly achieved.

Now what to do with a 2" 410 load? Mentioned before, I have set up to make this load shoot four equal weight cylinder pellets of Ballistic Product's wads ID. I then have four card stock paper wads in-between each cylinder to catch the air and separate the pellets making a very small pattern of individual pellets. 3" at twenty feet with four distinct hits from the load. I figure that at house distances this will make for an effective load. Using Lil Gun with its density I'm able to fit everything into the short length shell. I do have to cut the cushioning section out of the wad (a cigar cutter is used to do this) as well as opening up the bottom of the shot cup (a rather dull step drill bit does that operation). By cutting a hole in the bottom of the shot cup, the former cushioning section of the over powder section of the wad keys perfectly into the bottom of the shot cup and I gain 3/8" of load length. The four pellets just barely raise above the wad fingers and with a nitro card and over shot card in place the roll crimp comes out perfect and holds until shot.

My next project is to have a reamer company produce a 2" chamber reamer with a 1/2" forcing cone section. This will allow me to convert my Rossi 1892 with 20" barrel (16" may not work if a shotshell is loaded?) although they do mention on several occasions the phrase "Commercially Available" in connection with the shot shell loading. So if I were to find that the 2" length is NOT commercially available, then I could do this to my 16" barreled gun as well. My wheels are spinning for sure. The 20" tube holds exactly nine of these mega 410 loads and the 16" would hold seven of the same. Seven of these round would do some damage if called into service, but I'm going to triple check to see that I'm on the legal side of things before any metal is removed. Smithy P.S. Pics to follow when all complete and range testing is finished.

[barrabruce]

What shell lengths

well i remember the eley paper shells at 2"
But I was at the range and saw a bloke with some commercial loaded rounds that must have been 1 1/2 to 1/3/4"
If I remember they could have been maroon color.

They we very light loaded and small charge and looked as effective as ratshot out of a 22lr.

Can't even remember what the gun looked like but it was very old and petite.

He didn't care ....he was glad he could shoot it now and again....sentimental value only.
Be good for snake thou.

So there is still stuff out there...

[Smithy]

Not sure what the Fed's consider "commercially available" though since you can buy ANYTHING at all through normal retail chains and outlets as well a black market items as well. Shoot, Heroin is itself commercially available if you want to think about it. Sure the 410 without question is available in 2.5 and 3 inch variations, but the others? I don't know if a mom and pop sporting goods store in London Eng. constitutes "commercially available" to those that are looking at it. Remember the TC super shot 44. It was a semi-regular 44 magnum round with an extension balloon almost equal in length as the shell. It took TC's ripper choke to tear apart the thick hull of that round to expose the shot package and shoot and equivalent to a standard 410 loading. Manufacturers make various calibers of shot loads, so would that make the guns that shoot them sawed off shotguns? After all the rounds are indeed "commercially available". I hate grey areas when it comes to gun laws especially in CA. Smithy.

[William Yanda]

"Used to be the Winchester 1300 was the only pump that would feed the shorter rounds reliably ...." A couple of months back I saw a notice in my son's American Rifleman about the 1300 and short shells. It's on line if you look.

[victorfox]

My next project is to have a reamer company produce a 2" chamber reamer with a 1/2" forcing cone section. This will allow me to convert my Rossi 1892 with 20" barrel (16" may not work if a shotshell is loaded?) although they do mention on several occasions the phrase "Commercially Available" in connection with the shot shell loading. So if I were to find that the 2" length is NOT commercially available, then I could do this to my 16" barreled gun as well. My wheels are spinning for sure. The 20" tube holds exactly nine of these mega 410 loads and the 16" would hold seven of the same. Seven of these round would do some damage if called into service, but I'm going to triple check to see that I'm on the legal side of things before any metal is removed. Smithy P.S. Pics to follow when all complete and range testing is finished.

Sir, I'm not well aware about your intents, and I may be jumping into the wagon without asking, but did you consider the extraction mechanism of your gun? I was once offered a well worn Winchester 44-40 (barrel was so spent it would be easy to believe it was a shotgun...) that could be probably a good candidate for a 410 shotgun, if one could find the tools, given the loads respect the OAL of a regular .44-40 cartridge (about 1.6" if I recollect). would the gun cycle the 0.5" longer shell?

I think your 2" loads are a nice idea, indeed, and wouldn't be difficult to attain a good shootable load using only disks of paper/felt as wads. The smallest shell for the .410 I know of are exactly the 2".

In Brazil, where I live, the .410 is called a "36 gauge", as it was probably called in Europe too, or a "12mm gun", meaning, I guess, the external diameter of the hull, not the "caliber" itself. The comercial loads here are mostly 2.5" with 3/8oz shot, a 1/4oz slug and a "full" 1/2 of 4 00-buckshot.

Concerning slugs, I found this some days ago, when searching for a better slug:
141240
source: http://www.pyramydair.com/blog/2014/09/big-bore-bullets-part-2/
It was accuretely fired from a .398 smoothbore airgun and could be the ticket for the .410. I'll try these as soon as my funds and time permit =)

My best regards and good luck.

[Outpost75]

.44-40 shot assembled using Starline 5 in 1 blank cases.

141252