H&R Stub Barrel

[Tatume]

Hello Folks,

I've seen several methods of building stubbed barrels, so I'm wondering what is the best. I've heard of boring out the stub and turning the breech end of the barrel to a 2-3 thousandths interference fit, then freeze the barrel and heat the stub and put them together, sort of like putting bearings on an axel shaft. I've also heard of threading the barrel and stub and screwing them together. There may be other methods.

I've also heard that it is very easy to misalign the parts and end up with junk. I'm not sure if this happens during the lathe operations or the assembly of the two components.

Anyway, if you know anything about this process, and care to weigh in, please do.

I'm aware that at least one member here makes his living doing these jobs. I am NOT ASKING for him to give away his shop secrets. I do not want to take business away from anybody. I'm only asking for common knowledge among amateurs.

Thanks, Tom

[Tackleberry41]

You just need to cut the threads straight for things to line up right. Only way I have done it is drill and tap a stub. You have to make the piece to hold the hand guard on.

[John Taylor]

I have made more than a few barrels for H&Rs by making a new lug and silver soldering it to the barrel. This includes making a new extractor to fir the cartridge. The easiest way is to stub the barrel and thread them together, I would not rely on a heat shrink or press fit.

[ASSASSIN]

Barrel stubs are a specialty of mine and I feel the best way of joining the stub and barrel together, is to thread them...

For the H&R and CVA rifles, the barrel is threaded all the way through the barrel stub, until it butts tight up against the standing breech face...

For the T/C Contender and Encore barrel stubs, the barrel is stopped .003 short of touching the breech face...

Yes, there are several different ways that the barrel and stub can be joined together, but I feel that threading them is the most accurate way to do this...



357 Maximum...
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z132/HonkerHunter_photos/009-5.jpg


357 Maximum...
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z132/HonkerHunter_photos/308%20and%20264X444%20Improved/Thumbhole%20357%20MAX/014.jpg



357 Maximum...
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z132/HonkerHunter_photos/100_0123.jpg


357 Maximum...
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z132/HonkerHunter_photos/Michaels%20357%20Max/031.jpg



243 White Express...http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z132/HonkerHunter_photos/more%20stuff/037.jpg


30-06...
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z132/HonkerHunter_photos/20%20ga%20Slug%20Gun/013.jpg

[ASSASSIN]

7X30 Waters...
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z132/HonkerHunter_photos/7X30%20Waters/178_zps81139f16.jpg



338 White Express...
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z132/HonkerHunter_photos/338%20White%20Express/049_zps3ef8f778.jpg


7X30 Waters...
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z132/HonkerHunter_photos/7X30%20Waters/001.jpg


30X357 Maximum...
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z132/HonkerHunter_photos/Marks%20300%20Max%20Cat/007.jpg



http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z132/HonkerHunter_photos/APEX%20MAX/097.jpg



http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z132/HonkerHunter_photos/APEX%20MAX/109.jpg

[M-Tecs]

What caliber? Interference fits will work for low pressure rounds but I wouldn't trust it for the larger high pressure cases. Threading is what I recommend and what I do.

[.30-06 fan]

ASSASSIN

very beautiful rifles. there is something to be said for the stumpy handi or other, aesthetically very pleasing with wonderful barrel harmonics.

[ASSASSIN]

Thank You .30-06fan....

[bruce drake]

nice work!

[pietro]

Anyway, if you know anything about this process, and care to weigh in, please do.




Whatever you do, take care to determine WHICH type receiver you want to place the stubbed barrel on, as there are two invisibly different types - the cast iron SB-1 (NO, NO, NO, NO ! ) or the forged steel SB-2.

The factory SB-1 is only suitable for muzzleloading, shotgun and pistol caliber (.357, etc) chambered barrels.

The factory SB-2 is suitable for the above, plus higher intensity CF rifle cartridges (.243, .308, .444, etc).


.

[John Taylor]

The 12 gauge has about 5,000 pounds of bolt thrust so it will handle most any black powder cartridge. The 45-70 has about the same amount of bolt thrust. A 308 has about 8,000 pounds of bolt thrust and will blow holes in the primer if using the old shotgun firing pin. H&R made 30-30 rifle way back before the SB-2 frames.

[Arisaka99]

Forgive my ignorance, but what is a stubbed barrel? What's the advantage?

[John Taylor]

A stub barrel is where the old barrel is cut off , bored out and a new barrel inserted in. It can be soldered or threaded in depending on how much pressure the cartridge has. This is usually used on brake open guns where there is a lug on the barrel for the pivot point. Also used on doubles. Sometimes the stub is referred as a mono block where the lug and barrel ( or the part holding the barrel) are machined or forged as one part.

[GhostHawk]

Advantage is

A H&R is gone, no longer making and fitting barrels.

B Many people have one or more rifles. But lack a caliber they would like.
For me the missing one was .45lc. I have 9mm, .357, .444Marlin (44mag only more so)

So the one fairly easy way to create a barrel in a caliber you want is to start with an old cheap H&R or NEF shotgun barrel. Put a barrel in it.

Some weld them in, some epoxy, silver solder, threads. There are a lot of ways to do it.

Done right, for example I have a 9mm stub job that I got cheap as it had a few "issues"

But once problems solved it would put 9mm ammo into a 2" circle at 100 yards all day long. Being short, reasonably light weight it makes a nice woods walking gun.

Take a single barrel like that, an action it fits, add a 12 ga barrel. Possibly a longer range caliber like a .223. You have a backpack gun that is extremely versatile.

No it is not a semi auto, does not throw lead like a machine gun. So yes many people would not be interested. Me I happen to like guns that will put one well aimed, timed shot exactly where you tell it to go. And if you can also put a shotgun barrel on it?
Well to me that is kind of the cat's meow.

It ain't an AR or an AK. But if I wanted one badly enough it would get me one.

[JimB..]

Whatever you do, take care to determine WHICH type receiver you want to place the stubbed barrel on, as there are two invisibly different types - the cast iron SB-1 (NO, NO, NO, NO ! ) or the forged steel SB-2.

The factory SB-1 is only suitable for muzzleloading, shotgun and pistol caliber (.357, etc) chambered barrels.

The factory SB-2 is suitable for the above, plus higher intensity CF rifle cartridges (.243, .308, .444, etc).


.

Just to clear some things up. I’ve been reading a lot on this subject lately, and I believe that neither receiver is cast iron, they are both steel but have different heat treatment.

As for the difference being invisible, the only consistent difference I know of is under the buttstock, the upper receiver in the attached is an sb2, the lower is an SB1.

I believe this to be correct, but heck I learned most of it on the internet so who knows.

204831

[Texas by God]

This settles it. My 12 ga Topper is going to become something fun!

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[John Taylor]

I have been doing this for a while and was making them into muzzle loaders way before the inlines hit the market. Smallest cartridge so far has been a 32 ACP. Latest one for myself is a rifled 28 ? gauge. This was sort of reverse engineering. I started with a 28 gauge brass shell and figured the bullet size that would fit, .590". Made a barrel with the groove diameter to match. Next step is to make the lug and silver solder it to the barrel. This will go on an old Hercules action that was given to me because it didn't have a barrel. Just need some time so I can finish it.

[OlDeuce]

Hahaha just did a Double Rifle with 20" winchester 30-30 barrels ! She sure got Heavy quick !! LoL Ol Deuce

[Texas by God]

Can a .45 cal ML barrel be used with a 45-70 chamber to use patched round ball seated inside the case? Maybe a card wad on top and a slight roll crimp? Of course it would be Black powder only. Am I crazy?

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[Texas by God]

John Taylor, your 28 gauge rifle sounds similar to one of my dream guns- a Topper rifle in .577 Snider. I'll be watching this!

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[Texas by God]

I epoxied a 16" UZI 9mm barrel inside a aluminum frame hammerless Savage 12 gauge years ago. It worked, was super accurate. But the firing pin was too large and would pierce some primers. This and the 9 # weight made me convert it back to 12 gauge.

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[bruce drake]

Can a .45 cal ML barrel be used with a 45-70 chamber to use patched round ball seated inside the case? Maybe a card wad on top and a slight roll crimp? Of course it would be Black powder only. Am I crazy?

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I'm actually considering doing this with a 50 cal muzzleloader barrel and a 50-70 Govt. reamer.

[John Taylor]

John Taylor, your 28 gauge rifle sounds similar to one of my dream guns- a Topper rifle in .577 Snider. I'll be watching this!

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When I made the barrel I made a spare that got used for a 577 Snider .
Using a muzzle loading barrel might work except the rifling on a round ball barrel would be to deep and have to slow a twist for bullets. Green Mountain has both 45 and 50 caliber cartridge barrels that run a little over $100. Should be no problem going from 12 gauge to 45-70 or 50-70

[Texas by God]

I get your point. For basically the same money the ctg barrel would be better. I was thinking used ml barrel at first.

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[Texas by God]

I see a 44-40 blank on GM's site that looks interesting. Would it work on the casehardened Topper action pressure wise?

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[Skipper]

It isn't case hardened, it's ductile iron. The hardening colors are decorative. It would work fine for the 44-40....you might have to do some firing pin work.

[Texas by God]

I'm referring to a Pre NEF H&R Topper 1970's vintage. I have three and when I got my first one in 1972 the catalog said "Color Case Hardened Reciever". The colors are richer than a Ruger Old Vaquero- which had a case hardened "finish". I think Case Hardening was affordable till Doug Turnbull learned how to do it! I'm joking. Thanks for the firing pin tip- it is something to pay attention to.

[Skipper]

I'm aware of that. The same frame was used on the "Shikari" in .45-70 and .44 mag. It's just a decorative surface treatment.

[Texas by God]

I'm not arguing with you and am willing to concede to your statement if you provide proof. That said, I have none to support my position except memories of something I read 45 years ago.......
Best, Thomas.

[Skipper]

I had the same experience with the same gun and instructions, etc. I thought that it was real also until I got a little overzealous while cleaning and found out it wasn't real.
Check over here:
http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/108-h-r-centerfire-rifles.html

These guys will tell you the same thing.
In any case, they're great shotguns and rifles and I was real sorry to see H&R and NEF quit making them.
I blame it on Remington.

[Texas by God]

Thanks. My old Toppers colors are so vivid It's unreal. My Topper Jr. 20 gauge kept us a good supply of wild game when I was a kid. It is a shame they died; first as H&R- then NEF. I saw a Stevens single the other day that seems to be of that pattern. Let's hope they resurrect these wonderful guns.

[Texas by God]

I epoxied a 16" UZI 9mm barrel inside a aluminum frame hammerless Savage 12 gauge years ago. It worked, was super accurate. But the firing pin was too large and would pierce some primers. This and the 9 # weight made me convert it back to 12 gauge.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using TapatalkDeja Vu all over again. This time I bushed both ends of the Uzi 18-1/2" and epoxied them to the barrel. Then I drilled & tapped a retention screw at the muzzle. If it works well it can be converted back to 12 ga in minutes. A toy to play with until I decide what to do on the stub project.....

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[John Taylor]

I see a 44-40 blank on GM's site that looks interesting. Would it work on the casehardened Topper action pressure wise?

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The 44-40 has about 13,000 psi, the same as a 410 shotgun. The bolt trust would be the same as a 410 also. A 12 gauge shotgun has about 5,000 pounds of bolt thrust which is real close the bolt thrust of a 45-70.

[Texas by God]

Thank you, John. The tapered case should help ejection too.

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[Texas by God]

Deja Vu all over again. This time I bushed both ends of the Uzi 18-1/2" and epoxied them to the barrel. Then I drilled & tapped a retention screw at the muzzle. If it works well it can be converted back to 12 ga in minutes. A toy to play with until I decide what to do on the stub project.....

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using TapatalkSome pics and a correction. The 9mm barrel is 20" long. In the blind hog/acorn category it shoots well and the empties pluck out easily by finger power.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171025/c60f198a715103052178c04418e022d3.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171025/43bc6a302a02b75f45722d41ec7b1ed4.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171025/34c48bbb71a0155d023b9fe1311fd28c.jpg

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[1989toddm]

Looks good!


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[firebyprolong]

They make a dandy light rifle. This is one I built on a 12 ga sb1 frame with a green river gunsmith blank. 45 acp and it's a shooter. Have a couple lined up to be 357 mags in the next few months. I use the threaded stub method with a barrel shoulder. Just make sure to index off the chamber and not the outside of the tube. I've seen more than one that wasn't a centered or even close to true bore.

[762X51]

This is a very neat process but unless you have the tools and the abilities to do it yourself the costs of having it done are just too much. You could just buy an MGM barrel in your choice of chambering for your Contender or Encore and be done.

[Texas by God]

That is what I want. In 44-40 with iron sights, I think.

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[Texas by God]

Firebyprolong, what does your .45 acp carbine weigh? And bravo on the scope choice!

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[Texas by God]

It's 7 lbs as a 9mm. Excuse the mud & scratches; the old River Rat earned them!https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171025/43811a83f0bd34585f7b1d9f29a6c1e9.jpg

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[firebyprolong]

You know I never weighed it. I'd say with scope it was a little heavier than one of the slim barrel 410 but not much. Believe it or not that's an 18 inch tube. I was going to go 16 but after measuring I decided that 18 was short and light enough. at 18 inches it really muffles a 45 acp way down, it's just loud enough you want ear plugs. Kinda feels like your throwing softball really fast. I probably put 500 rounds though it before I took it to a fun shoot and got talked out of it by a buddy. One of those" I didnt ask you if you wanted to sell it. I said how much would it take for you to sell it to me?" Type deals.

Lost that scope in the deal too. It was a sears marked weaver k 2.5 that had a broken vertical hair that I replaced with a the smallest needle I could find. Put myself into a post and hair reticle for the princely sum of 20 bucks. You could almost see it in the dark, great combo for inside 100 yard work. It was a fun rifle, I have a couple more blanks and I bought a 45acp reamer so I might just build another. I really want a 357 in about that same set up so I think that's first.

[Texas by God]

I experienced barrel creep so I doubled up on the retention srews. I think I've got it now. This is at 12 yds and I was aiming at the .22 group in the center of the plate.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171026/5bea750bccfa8177849894c90f4713ff.jpg

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[Texas by God]

I'm epoxying a scope base on the chamber today. Might as well see how well I can shoot it.

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[Whiterabbit]

What silver solder are you guys using?

Can I use any old thing or would you recommend a particular product? I use silvalloy 355 but it is very very expensive, quite a bit would be used for something like a barrel lug.

https://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/general-gunsmith-tools/solders-flux/silvaloy-355-silver-solder-prod584.aspx

What about other hi-temp solders I can purchase at welding shops? Not advised?

Only thing more expensive than silvalloy is buying a handi barrel to stub. They seem to be made of solid silver themselves these days!

[John Taylor]

If you thread the barrel and stub then Loctite is all you need.

[Whiterabbit]

I thought you said you made your stub by soldering a homemade lug to a barrel or barrel section?

[John Taylor]

I thought you said you made your stub by soldering a homemade lug to a barrel or barrel section?

Most of the time I do but there has been a few times that I threaded them together. I usually thread doubles, much easier than making a mono block.

[Whiterabbit]

Hi John, I meant in reference to this reply:


I have made more than a few barrels for H&Rs by making a new lug and silver soldering it to the barrel. This includes making a new extractor to fir the cartridge. The easiest way is to stub the barrel and thread them together, I would not rely on a heat shrink or press fit.

It's not a question of a stub or threading, but underlug soldering. Surely you do not thread and install the lug to the barrel or stub like any scope rail or similar?

I can make a lug, I can solder it to a barrel. Sounds like a great plan for my needs. However, where I am weak is understanding how strong the joint needs to be to be reliable and safe.

The plan would be for an SB-1 frame for low pressure pistol cartridges, but it would be interesting to know if it's any different between an SB1 barrel vs SB2.

If I take a barrel blank and chamber it, or a take-off barrel, and I want to carve a lug out of some alloy steel and solder it to the bottom of that barrel, do you have a recommended solder to use? I assume I can't just use a low temp 96-4 tin-silver solder, that I would want ot use something stronger like a silvalloy, correct? Do you have a recommendation for solder? There are lots of hi-temp options at welding shops for brazing.

[ulav8r]

https://www.brownells.com/gunsmith-tools-supplies/general-gunsmith-tools/solders-flux/silvaloy-355-silver-solder-prod584.aspx

[Whiterabbit]

Right, that's the stuff I linked to in post 45. I started with two questions. #1, is silvalloy good enough? And #2 if it is good enough, are there other alloys (that I can source local) that are also strong enough that I can use? There are lots of hi temp brazing alloys out there. But have a different alloy content and it is not clear to me how this affects strength or performance when bonding alloy steel. I figure you guys have some insight.

I should apologize for not being clear enough when I first asked, but I am really interested in what you guys use for this purpose.

[Texas by God]

I'm epoxying a scope base on the chamber today. Might as well see how well I can shoot it.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using TapatalkI dropped an old Simmons 4x on it and dialed it in at 40 yds. The group on the right is Geco 115 fmj. The group on the left is DRT 80gr hp. The other pic is a box at 100 yds. The top left aiming point is on the flap stapled to the backstop. Look close and you can see two shots there and one on the box body. About a 4" group with the Geco. I'm suprised at the flat trajectory!
Time to try reloads!https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171102/92d049bb883b54383868ea10b85f4be7.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171102/2e4fdd97e965365a502db60596622354.jpg

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[John Taylor]

Hi John, I meant in reference to this reply:



It's not a question of a stub or threading, but underlug soldering. Surely you do not thread and install the lug to the barrel or stub like any scope rail or similar?

I can make a lug, I can solder it to a barrel. Sounds like a great plan for my needs. However, where I am weak is understanding how strong the joint needs to be to be reliable and safe.

The plan would be for an SB-1 frame for low pressure pistol cartridges, but it would be interesting to know if it's any different between an SB1 barrel vs SB2.

If I take a barrel blank and chamber it, or a take-off barrel, and I want to carve a lug out of some alloy steel and solder it to the bottom of that barrel, do you have a recommended solder to use? I assume I can't just use a low temp 96-4 tin-silver solder, that I would want ot use something stronger like a silvalloy, correct? Do you have a recommendation for solder? There are lots of hi-temp options at welding shops for brazing.

I use a high strength silver solder that melts around 1100 degrees. The lug can also be welded on. I usually make the lugs from pieces of barrel blanks. I have lots of cut off ends of barrels so it seem a good source of 4140 steel. Problem with welding is if it cools to fast the barrel might be to hard to chamber.
On accuracy, I did have one that seemed to not shoot good and it turned out to be the forearm. With the forearm off it shot great.

[Wolfer]

I ordered an extra 410 barrel for my NEF pardner 410 yesterday. Not sure what caliber it's going to be in yet. It will be 45 colt, 38-40 wcf, 38 special, 32 H&R. Depends on what donor barrel I come up with. Ive long wanted a poor mans rook rifle in 32 H&R but have no real use for one other than fun and cheap. ( just like me )

45 colt would be the most practical for me. It would require little to no work on the extractor. Green mtn has 40 cal gunsmith special blanks right now very reasonable.
Decisions decisions!

[oldred]

Hello Folks, I've heard of boring out the stub and turning the breech end of the barrel to a 2-3 thousandths interference fit, then freeze the barrel and heat the stub and put them together, sort of like putting bearings on an axel shaft.


Thought I would touch on something here since interference fit would certainly work if done properly, however, either heat OR freeze one part but don't do both! While the idea may seem sound, shrink one and expand the other, it usually results in problems due to the rapid chilling of one part with simultaneous rapid heating of the other. While I have never used this method on any gun part I have during the last 45 years used it on countless machine bearings and bushings, from tiny bearings/bushings/shafts to some over 3 ft in diameter and requiring a crane to set in place, we learned many years ago to either heat or freeze but NOT do both with freezing being the better choice usually. Now about freezing, tossing an item in a refrigerator freezer or deep freeze will accomplish almost nothing unless it's aluminum or brass, dry ice will however normally work wonders and should be all you need for a really tight fit

[JohnSmiles]

I want a barrel for my HR in 327 Federal. Is there anyone qualified currently offering to build custom barrels for the HR?

[John Taylor]

I'm doing one now in 32 S&W. I do about one a month. Just got the reamer in to do a 380 auto.

[Texas by God]

I've been thinking of getting another Yildiz folder just to stub. I wish they made a 20 gauge.

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[John Taylor]

latest 32 S&W with a welded lug. Extractor, no ejector.
257391

[1989toddm]

latest 32 S&W with a welded lug. Extractor, no ejector.
257391

Tig or mig welded?

[John Taylor]

Tig or mig welded?

Tig, next time I may use mig.