Problem with new CH4D 101 dies

[andyt53]

Just got my 40 cal 101 swage dies in and immediatly ran into a major problem. I followed the instructions to set up the die. Locked down the die in the press and started to seat my first core. Heard a weird noise. Ejected to first core and measured, still needed a little bit more to be swaged to proper diameter.

So I took the die out to try and figure out what that weird noise was. I grabbed my wrench and started to loosen the lock nut, but it was pretty rough and gritty. Then I noticed little metal shards. Somehow the threads on the die broke. I dont know why how how. But it's enough for me to be an unhappy camper.

I then proceeded to try the point forming die. Again, set up the die acording the the instruction sheet that came in the box. Made a nice hollow point bullet. But no threads were broken on this die.

Does anybody have any clue as to why a few threads snapped on he core seating die? Using pure soft lead to swage with, not wheel weight lead. Also, is there anything I can do to make this die usable or am I out $258?

[goblism]

Contact CH4D they will swap it out for you

[andyt53]

Contacted them. They said Dave will call me when he gets in. Sucks, I really wanted to make up some bullets today.

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

Makes you wonder if any of the internals are heat treated. I am pretty sure there is a thread on this somewhere in here lol. When I get time I will try to dig it up.

[andyt53]

Are you implying that the threads are not heat treated? That would be silly, but not impossible.

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

Yes. Hopefully I am wrong or he may have A LOT of dies to fix.

Here is a thread of interest: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?108066-Any-41-cal-from-9mm-intrest

[andyt53]

Wow. I ready maybe the first 7 posts on that thread. Makes me wonder if I made the wrong choice on getting these dies.

[tiger762]

Soft steel threads wouldn't fail like that. Not on a reloading press anyway. Maybe if you were using a hydraulic press. If anything, it sounds like the metal wasn't tempered after heat treating and is brittle. Still, the force needed would be immense and I don't think a reloading press could do it.

I would take some closeup pictures and email it to them. Oh, I would also measure the major and minor diameters and make sure both are in range.

p.s. Is there a swage die manufacturer that doesn't take their potential customer for granted by making them wait over a year? Just asking rhetorically...

[andyt53]

Just got off the phone with Dave at CH4D. I explained in detail everything I did before and after. Also explained how I used the point form die with the hollow point punch with no problems. The bullet looks nice except it's just a little undersized since I didnt get to swage the core to final diameter before the threads broke. Dave was very surprised to hear what happened to the threads and asked me to send the core seat die back to him. I hope they take care of me.

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

It's not that they are taking advantage of their customers, it is just that good swage dies take time. You know this and so do I. If the die in question were tested it most likely would not have passed QC.


I would also measure the major and minor diameters and make sure both are in range.


This is a good start. Can this be measured with calipers or do you HAVE to have a screw thread mic?

[mckenziedrums]

I've been exchanging emails with Dave today (first I noticed that these are available) and it sounds like the only thing left soft is the punch to basically preserve the die if you screw up. I only own a few CH4D products but from what I've experienced they have excellent customer service.

[newcastter]

Wow, jumped onto the thread before even contacting the manufacturer..... Weird decision.

[andyt53]

Wow, jumped onto the thread before even contacting the manufacturer..... Weird decision.

And, what's the big deal? I see post after post of people doing the same thing. Not only on this site, but two other sites I belong to. Also, talking to them on the phone did no good for me as to what caused the threads to break on a new die. Pretty much all I got was "Send it in." I started this thread mainly to see if somebody could offer some suggestions as to what caused the problem.
ETA: also posted here first because there are WAY more people on this site than CH4D has in their building. And some of the people on this board could possibly give me an idea as to what caused the problem.

[customcutter]

Wow, jumped onto the thread before even contacting the manufacturer..... Weird decision.

Actually post#2 said to contact the mfg. OP stated in post#3 that he already had. OP was probably just trying to find some consolation until mfg contacted back, not trying to de-fame mfg.

Andy sorry you posted while I was typing.

CC

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

It is no different than someone having a problem with any other piece of reloading equipment. This is a place for questions and learning. Possible solutions are put forth by our EXTREMELY knowledgeable members.

I don't think it is a weird decision. My last step is to call the manufacturer, as I try to fix most problems on my own.

[andyt53]

Customcutter and Illinois, thank you. And Illinois, calling the manufacturer is normally my last step if I cant fix something on my own. But in this case, I cant fix broken threads. So I posted on here to find reasons why they broke, from people with more knowledge than me. So to everybody that replied with USEFUL information, thank you.

[newcastter]

And, what's the big deal? I see post after post of people doing the same thing. Not only on this site, but two other sites I belong to. Also, talking to them on the phone did no good for me as to what caused the threads to break on a new die. Pretty much all I got was "Send it in." I started this thread mainly to see if somebody could offer some suggestions as to what caused the problem.
ETA: also posted here first because there are WAY more people on this site than CH4D has in their building. And some of the people on this board could possibly give me an idea as to what caused the problem.
Ah, ok understand from that prospective. Didn't see any post stating it was a big deal though. I also understand how they can't explain to you where the breakdown occurred until they inspect the faulty die. Hence the "Send It In". Well I am waiting on 3 sets so let us know what they say about in case there is another issue.
Thanks
Ben

[newcastter]

I don't think it is a weird decision. My last step is to call the manufacturer, as I try to fix most problems on my own.
That's probably not good advice as that normally voids any manufactures warrenty. But thanks for your input.

[newcastter]

Actually post#2 said to contact the mfg. OP stated in post#3 that he already had. OP was probably just trying to find some consolation until mfg contacted back, not trying to de-fame mfg.

Andy sorry you posted while I was typing.

CC
I can read pretty well but thanks for sharing. Actually the OP agreed that he posted here first before calling the manufacture and that was his normal practice. But I understand where he was coming from now that HE explained it. Thanks for jumping to his defense though. Just thought it was odd fella.

[andyt53]

Newcastter, I will update this thread regarding what they find. Hopefully it's just this one particular die.

[newcastter]

Newcastter, I will update this thread regarding what they find. Hopefully it's just this one particular die.
I know right, im sure well hear if its not, and I imagine I should have mine any day now. For some reason the mail never showed up today. I'll be sure to post my success or issues, I just don't think CH should be bashed because of one bad die.
Ben

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

Well, like you said, hopefully it is just a freak occurrence with your one die.

[andyt53]

Im sure it's a freak occurrence. It has to be. What are the odds that they produce many dies and they all have the same problem on just the core seating die. Like I said, the point form/ hollow punch die is perfectly fine. In fact, I used a 220 Swift die to seat a few cores then point formed with the CH4D die just to get a few done. In total, I made up 25 bullets without the proper seating die. Can't wait until this die body gets replaced so I can use the proper tools.

[tiger762]

I am 100% sure you'll be made whole, although I can understand the PITA it is to have had the die in hand and now have to wait for a replacement. CH4D has been around a l-o-n-g time and I've never heard a bad word about them. I have 50BMG and 20mm Vulcan reloading die sets of theirs. Who the heck even sells 20mm Vulcan dies other than them? LOL...

Now that I think about it, I think there was some cat who went by "Old Western Scrounger" that carried some really wacked out stuff, but I don't think he's in business anymore.

If you have dial calipers, try to at least measure the major thread diameter. I'm thinking someone went a little too far on the lathe and the threads of your press didn't have enough interlock with the threads of the die, and the area that broke was trying to carry too much force in too small an area.

[andyt53]

The dies already boxed up and ready to ship out. I dont wanna open it back up and I didnt even think about getting any measurments off it.

[257]

I have lots of there dies have never had a problem with them. mine are 15 to 20 year's old. I could not imagine them not making it right all of my dealings with them they were always strait forward and took care of the problem

[andyt53]

Still waiting to hear from them. Shipped the die back to them on 2/10/15. Hopefully it will be a quick turnaround. I don't have any doubt that they won't make this right. I've heard nothing but good things about CH4D.

[Sasquatch-1]

Just out of curiosity, what press were you using?

[goblism]

Still waiting to hear from them. Shipped the die back to them on 2/10/15. Hopefully it will be a quick turnaround. I don't have any doubt that they won't make this right. I've heard nothing but good things about CH4D.

I bet you won't hear anything until mid next week, Monday is a holiday.

[andyt53]

Just out of curiosity, what press were you using?

Lee Classic Cast press. The press doesnt have any problems with any other dies. Including using the point form die as a one step die. Also used a 220 Swift die toseat a core with no problem, putting more pressure than I did with the CH4D core seat die.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

It's not that they are taking advantage of their customers, it is just that good swage dies take time. You know this and so do I. If the die in question were tested it most likely would not have passed QC.



This is a good start. Can this be measured with calipers or do you HAVE to have a screw thread mic?

You can measure it over three wires, one in the thread on one side, and two on the other. They should be of a size to touch the flanks, not the crests, of the thread. That will only give you a comparative measurement, but if it is similar to what you get by measuring one or two other dies, or a 7/8-14 tap, it indicates that diameter isn't the problem.

I agree excessive hardness is the most likely reason. Another is threads loose enough for a piece of wire or something to get into them, and throw an unfair load on one side.

I think they all have pretty good CS in such cases. They can't afford not to. Even at current prices they must be taking man-hours, not man-months or worse, to make a die. The alternative to a long waiting list is to pitch the price high enough to slow down demand (nice for them), and perhaps have demand tailing off after selling more of them. With luck, since they have had not just your order but your money, you will jump the queue for a replacement.

[tiger762]

I agree excessive hardness is the most likely reason. Another is threads loose enough for a piece of wire or something to get into them, and throw an unfair load on one side.

I hadn't considered this but that sounds plausible.


With luck, since they have had not just your order but your money, you will jump the queue for a replacement.

I talked with Dave last week. He said they made 50 sets of each type. He was bemused at how many had sold, even though they hadn't advertised any. He was wondering if there's an Internet message board where such dies are discussed and people tell each other who-has-what in stock. I chuckled...

[Cane_man]

maybe heat treated but not properly annealed, someone got in a hurry or was careless

[andyt53]

Well I recieved an email from Dave today. He said he did not have an answer at the moment as to what caused the threads to break. But they shipped me a new die today.

+1 for CH4D's customer service. They really do stand by their products, which is starting to become a thing of the past with a bunch of places in and out of the ammo reloading world.

[tiger762]

But they shipped me a new die today.

They've been around for decades. I had no doubt they'd make it right, although it is still a PITA.

I recently requested from them a HP ejector for a 44cal #101 set I bought 15 years ago that only came with the soft point ejector. They had me ship the die to them so that they can make sure a new manufacture punch will fit snugly to the older die. They take care of their customers and at the moment, they have product in stock.

[andyt53]

This is my first purchase with them, and won't be my last. I already have a few things I want to buy. One of them being the 45 cal 101 swage dies, if they still have them in a week or two.

[andyt53]

Just received my replacement core seat die! Tested it out on 5 cores, so far so good! Happy camper here.

[sly mantis]

ive been fumbling around the ch4d site but cant find the 101 swaging dies. what section of the site are they under?

[andyt53]

They aren't listed on the site. You would need to call them and ask if they still have any.

[DukeInFlorida]

DEAD SOFT LEAD ONLY!!!!!!

Do NOT use wheel weight alloy, or anything harder than dead soft lead.

The tools are not made for swaging really hard lead.

OK, I exaggerated a bit when I said dead soft lead only. But, you get the idea.

If you put a chunk of soft aluminum in the die and try to swage that, all the threads will give up in one crunch!

Softer is better.... And, the adjustments for the over-cam pressure are small, and incremental. You can't make GIANT LEAP adjustments and expect to have any success....