Expansion Industries

[Ravenhawk57]

This company has a powder ETR7 for sale at 16.50 lb. They say it loads everything from 380 thru 45. Anyone know about this company. Wondering myself?:!::!:

[twc1964]

Ive looked at their website but im still on the fence. Id also like to hear from any folks using it.

[Freightman]

It will still be $25 a # by the time you add haz matt and shipping. Here is the link http://www.expansion-industries.com/

[texassako]

They relabeled Maxam CSB-1 powder. There has been some discussion on that powder. I have recently seen that there are at least 2 or 3 types of CSB-1 with some adding an M or a P on the end marking it as slightly different in speed. These guys show all three types: https://www.buffalocartridge.com/maxam

[jonp]

$85/4lbs shipped or so. About $22/lb give or take. Thats not bad if you need it

[twc1964]

I thought about ordering some for 9mm loads , but with my tc boolit and seating depth, i dont think i can get the speeds im looking for. Still on the back burner though if i cant find what i really need.

[Trinidad Bill]

It will still be $25 a # by the time you add haz matt and shipping. Here is the link http://www.expansion-industries.com/

Mine came to less than $20/lbs shipped and hazzmat to Colorado! I have not found powder for less than $20/lbs in years.

[jonp]

They relabeled Maxam CSB-1 powder. There has been some discussion on that powder. I have recently seen that there are at least 2 or 3 types of CSB-1 with some adding an M or a P on the end marking it as slightly different in speed. These guys show all three types: https://www.buffalocartridge.com/maxam

Not different speed but different cut. CSB-1M is a finer cut.

[kfarm]

Got 8lbs in FedEx limbo, 3rd attempt to deliver now re-scheduled for Monday. The reviews I've seen are mixed. Some like it, some complain about cost and some hate the whole repackage idea. Don't know how good it is but I'll use it in something as for price all the stores around here are at $25-$30 a pound so it was a little cheaper for me. With the powder shortage glad I stockpiled, like a lot of folks I still got powder I got from Jeff in the 80's.
Hoping for the best hope its clean shooting and great metering. Well I guess I really hope FedEx just gets it here.

[sargenv]

I've used it for 9mm and 40 cal S&W and it seems to work fine for me.. It was initially quoted as "Use Universal data", but some who have used it in shotguns have noticed in the lower pressure region of shotshells, it is actually closer to International Clays. I have load data worked up with Hi-tech's Lot of CSB-1 on another thread in the powder forum.. I have some of the CSB-1M from hi-tech but I have not yet worked up any data with it.. I've been told that CSB-1M is closer to Titegroup, we shall see when I do my load workups in 9, 38 spl, and 40. I might even do some in 41 magnum.

[kfarm]

After a week delay at FedEx it was delivered today, soon as we get some global warming I'll get to my work shop and try it.

[tward]

Got 8 lbs on Tuesday and loaded some 38 specials, just have to get to the range. Cost worked out to $20.85/lb. Tim

[abqcaster]

Other forums and people speaking to the (i presume ) owner, Lucas, say its not CSB-1. What I see about CSB-1 suggests using Universal data, but the Expansion Ind. website says ETR7 is more like Titegroup, and other foroum discussions say CSP-1 isn't as clean burning as people using ETR7 say the ETR7 is. Universal and Titegroup are pretty far apart on burn rate charts. I'm not trying to be pedantic, just trying to help folks keep their fingers. ;)

[Ravenhawk57]

Since I posted this thread I have located another site. Buffalo Cartridge Co. Sells this powder in 55 lb drums for 659.95 which works out to about 11.90 a lb. Also an explaination of the powder as to the cut of the powder. Maybe this will help. :redneck:

[kfarm]

Guys take a look does this look like the CSB-1 that others are getting?

[9w1911]

I want a 55gal drum!!!!!!!

[NewbieDave007]

I want a 55gal drum!!!!!!!

55 POUNDS ... lol

NOT 55 gal

[9w1911]

ah tad smaller I was thinking a 55 gal drum

[retread]

I figured a little over $20 with hazmat and shipping on 16 lb. Been a week and have not seen it yet. What has the delivery time been for others?

[kfarm]

If you talking about ETR-7? I placed the order on Wednesday evening and got shipping notice that Friday from FedEx. Delivery was to be the next Wednesday but FedUp could not find my address on Wed., Thur. and Fri. Add the bad weather we've had and an email or two it was delivered last Friday. Baring FedUp it would have been a week from order to door.

[retread]

Yeah, ERT7. Hope FedEx doesn't screw it up. Thanks for the info.

[Trinidad Bill]

Ordered 8lbs on 2/11/15, received the tracking information on 2/23/15, Fedx ground.

I received my 8 lbs yesterday, 2/25/15. Very nice box and packaging. They did not spare the cost on packaging. I hope the powder performs as well.

[abqcaster]

I placed my order on 2/13 got my tracking info on 3/2. Waiting to get it on3/5. Seems consistent with Trinidad.

[retread]

Place my order on 2/12, got an email from them saying they were waiting on container labels but the jugs were ready for shipment as soon as the labels arrive. No tracking number as of today.

[Geraldo]

I bought 4# after reading some reviews and chrono data on Brian Enos' forum. Mine was delayed a few days by the weather in VA, but once shipped it got here OK.

[abqcaster]

Mine came in yesterday as expected. I worked with it as soon as I could. It's VERY bulky, so a double charge was easily noticed in the .380s I was loading. It's a very light, grayish-brown color also easy to observe in the case. Like other flake powders it did not meter well in my Autodisk, with an adjustable charge bar, at least not with small, 2-2.5grn charges. It seemed like it might meter well with larger charges. I'll be looking at 9mm tonight. It metered very consistently though, through my Perfect Powder Measure. That's good enough for me for loading my .380s and .32 Longs. I'll post my 9mm findings and range reports as I get to them.

[tward]

i loaded up some 38 specials 158 gr and 125 gr using Titegroup data and also some 44 Special 240 gr and 200 gr. The powder seems to meter well and all the loads went bang. it seems very clean burning and as accurate as the Unique and Bullseye I am used to I will try some loads in the Universal range next. I am a happy camper!:bigsmyl2: Tim

[abqcaster]

i loaded up some 38 specials 158 gr and 125 gr using Titegroup data and also some 44 Special 240 gr and 200 gr. The powder seems to meter well and all the loads went bang. it seems very clean burning and as accurate as the Unique and Bullseye I am used to I will try some loads in the Universal range next. I am a happy camper!:bigsmyl2: Tim

What were you charging with, Tward?

[9w1911]

looks like csb-1 to me

[John Boy]

If it is the Spanish CSB-1 powder - many reloaders are looking for CSB-1 recipes ... and the Expansion website has plenty of data for various handgun calibers

[tward]

abqcaster, I tried my old hornady pistol measure as well as my Lee autodisc measure. I set the meter threw 10 or 15 charges to settle the powder then checked one charge got 3.7 gr then threw 10 charges and got 37.8 gr so not bad. when working up loads I always weigh all charges.
Tim :bigsmyl2:

[jonp]

"one charge got 3.7 gr then threw 10 charges and got 37.8 gr". 37.8gr each? Are you comfortable with that? Must be a compressed charge in the 38sp. I bet 37.8gr went bang, lol

[Screwbolts]

Jonp, IMHO, you should have used the purple font, or re read the quote. In a nut shell, he dropped 10 charges in the pan and they combined weighed 37.8 gr for a total of ten. But you already knew that right. [smilie=l:

Ken

[Artful]

wow, looks like it jumped from 60 to 66 per 4 pounds since this morning! :shock:

[retread]

Place my order on 2/12, got an email from them saying they were waiting on container labels but the jugs were ready for shipment as soon as the labels arrive. No tracking number as of today.

Mine arrived on Friday. Hope to try some out soon.

[dragon813gt]

wow, looks like it jumped from 60 to 66 per 4 pounds since this morning! :shock:

It's been $66 for at least a week now. I know I looked either early last week or the week before and it was $66.

[John Boy]

Email reply re: "If I stop in at your store in April, will you have ETR7 powder in stock for purchase?"

We have 4lb and 1lb containers in stock

[Rhou45]

After reading about this powder on this thread, I ordered a 4lb container. I ordered it on a Friday 27 Feb, it was at my house the next Thursday, 5 March at 09:16am.

The circular flake powder is light gray/tan/greenish in color and resembles a picture of CSB-1 I seen on another website. It is in between STEEL and Unique in flake size.

I compared the load data on expansion industries webpage with the data in Hodgdon's 2013 Annual Load manual. Fourteen of Expansion Industries (EI) Min/Max loads match Hodgdon's grain weight exactly for the loads using Universal with the same bullet weight in 9mm, 38SPC, 357 MAG, 40 SW, 45 ACP and 44 MAG.

I loaded up 30 38SPC loads with 158grain LSWC using EI's 158 FMJ load of 3.0-3.4 gr.

The 3.0 gr loads didn't even lift the barrel of my Ruger BH 6 1/2 barrel off the 20 yard target. No recoil. Same POI as POA.
Next was a 3.2 gr load, same as above. No recoil, same POI as POA
The last set of 10 were the 3.4 gr loads. Minimal recoil, no change to POI from POA. The 3.4 loads were noticeably loader than the muffled (probably subsonic) reports of the first two tests. Yet the 3.4 gr loads were still quieter than normal 38 SPC loads.

The spent cases were all very clean as other reports have indicated they would be. Only the 3.4 gr loads appeared to have any discoloration and then that was minimal compared to rounds I recently loaded with Titegroup.

No signs of pressure at all. All primers were lightly marked and still very rounded on the edges. No flattening at all. No sticking cases, minimal recoil, all signs spoke of low power/pressure loads.

This was my first use of this powder and from my observations I plan on uping the loads from 3.4 to 3.6, 3.8, 4.0 and test over my chrono. I do not suspect 4.0 to show any signs of excess. The 3.0 loads will probably become my round ball loads for this powder.


Based on my finding of similar gr weight to caliber/bullet combinations in the Hodgdon 2013 annual loading manual, I plan on working loads up for my 45c starting with the 200 gr round nose at 6.4gr and work up to 8.8gr, and the 255 LSWC between 6.5-7.8. If the reports I have read about this powder are accurate, the universal load data will be about 10% under powder using this powder and their numbers. If that is so I expect my final loads to be just above 9 gr of ETR-7 in the 45c.

[bangerjim]

I too have some on the way and look forward to trying it. I am mainly interested in 45LC loads and 38SPL. My main powder is TiteGroup and it appears to be very similar.

Will post my findings once I load up some and try 'em.

banger-j

[Screwbolts]

I also have some on the way, 24 pounds to split amongst 3 fellow shooters. At least it was ordered on the 3rd, no tracking as of this morning, 3-11-15. I understand they might have gotten a little bit of snow. I will be loading 9mm, 38 Spec, 357, and 44 spec/mag loads. I do hope to be posting actual cronied loads results.

I will be miking cases for pressure as explained in Ken Waters Book, "Pet Loads" .

Ken

[wgr]

what are theses loads light are heavy loads(target are hunting)?

[bangerjim]

what are theses loads light are heavy loads(target are hunting)?

I think you are asking if these are light OR heavy loads?

He, as I, when playing with newly acquired unknown powders with "sketchy" (not full pressure data) load data, start out low and work up. From what I have read, this powder acts and loads very similar to others such as TiteGroup. But you can do the comparison for yourself by looking at the EI load data sheets and the published data for other powders in all the standard books. EI should know their own powder and I will trust their charts for starters.

What are you hunting? Light loads for small stuff.....full loads for big stuff?

But I as others on this thread will not really know until we actually get the shipments and play around with loads. Will post some info once I have it loaded up.

banger-j

[Rhou45]

what are theses loads light are heavy loads(target are hunting)?

Yes, as bangerjim stated, since this is a new powder with minimal load data, I started out light, using EI's published data to become familiar with their powder.

As loaded, the 38 SPC loads I used were intended for target/familiarity. If need be I could use them for small game (squrriel/rabbit) out to 25 yards or so. But would not want to use them as a hunting or self defense load.

Cross referencing one or more loading manuals to the manufacturers recommended load lists can give you an indication of how it will compare to other powders. I happened to luck out and found the 2013 Hodgdon annual update was grain for grain with numerous Universal loads. That is not a guarantee that it will load and perform as Universal, but gives me a reference for other loads that EI does not list, such as 45c loads.

Whenever I am working with a powder new to me, I always start light and work up, looking for signs of pressure. I normally chrono all first time uses as well, this time I was not able to do so.

[Screwbolts]

what are theses loads light are heavy loads(target are hunting)?

Not sure who you were asking but I would have to say for myself, it should be self evident. Loads will be for my personal pleasure and enjoyment.

Ken

[Screwbolts]

Just checked ETR7 website, it now shows the powder to be "Out of Stock"

I am a little concerned. Placed and order for 6 - 4 pound containers (24 pounds total) on the 3-3-15, @ 8:39 AM EST, they withdrew the money from my CC account on the 4th (transaction completed) and as of today no shipment, or tracking number have been received. Powder was listed as, In Stock, when I ordered. I have made 4 phone calls and left 3 messages, EI, has not returned any calls. We are in the same time zone.

I did get a returned email from one, Lucus Smissen, 3 days ago stating that I would receive tracking info "very soon".

Looks like my personal pleasure and enjoyment working up loads, is not going to happen "very soon".

Ken

[bangerjim]

"tonite, tonite......it's commin' tonite! (from A Christmas Story)

Got the FEDEX number on my shipment and I will have the powder next week. Only took the 3 days to ship.

banger-j

[abqcaster]

I used it to load up some 9mm with Lee 356-125 2R, and I still got binding/bridging in my Lee Autodisk dispenser (charge bar), with 3.8gr charges. It works really well in my Perfect Powder measure though. I guess that's the route I'll be taking from now on with this powder, as I bought it almost exclusively for .380 and 9mm. If anybody has any tips to prevent binding, I'm all ears.

[John Boy]

Just checked ETR7 website, it now shows the powder to be "Out of Stock"
Just got off the phone - talked with their retail store ... the powder was put 'Out of Stock' because they are in the middle of inventory. Per the lady ... will be "Put back Up" in a few days

I called because am planning on a trip to the NRA Museum last week of April and want to purchase the powder at their store ... told " Not to Worry the powder will be in stock"

[bangerjim]

Just got off the phone - talked with their retail store ... the powder was put 'Out of Stock' because they are in the middle of inventory. Per the lady ... will be "Put back Up" in a few days

I called because am planning on a trip to the NRA Museum last week of April and want to purchase the powder at their store ... told " Not to Worry the powder will be in stock"

GOOD!

According to thier site, this is the samenpowder they use for ALL thier commercial ammo and I would think they would have it. Pleanty of it!

banger-j

[Screwbolts]

I am glad many of you have received powder from Expansion industries. I can not even get an email response now or a return phone call.

I believe it to be very poor business practices to take someones money 9 days ago and not ship a product. Not to mention not returning phone calls. I have left 4 messages now, the last was after reading post #48 I called at 4:15 PM EST. and left another message.

I will defiantly be calling my Credit card company no later than Monday morning to file a complaint and work to getting my money back. I would have to say at this time buyer beware. Expansion Industries state on the ETR7 webpage orders shipped in 1 to 2 business days. But they fail to define what they consider a business day.



Ken

[kfarm]

Been in your shoes and not that it really matters to you at this time but I received shipping info the next day and would have received the powder 1 week after order except for global warming shutting down the country for a week. Hang in there hope it works out for you.

[retread]

Had a bit of a wait for mine but it arrived safely. Loaded some 9mm and tested them out. Metered nicely in the Dillon. Charged the 120 TC with the same load that I use for Bullseye. Performance and report were pretty close to the Bullseye loads. Loaded some 40 S&W's but haven't tried them out yet.

[Geraldo]

I am glad many of you have received powder from Expansion industries. I can not even get an email response now or a return phone call.

I believe it to be very poor business practices to take someones money 9 days ago and not ship a product. Not to mention not returning phone calls. I have left 4 messages now, the last was after reading post #48 I called at 4:15 PM EST. and left another message.

I will defiantly be calling my Credit card company no later than Monday morning to file a complaint and work to getting my money back. I would have to say at this time buyer beware. Expansion Industries state on the ETR7 webpage orders shipped in 1 to 2 business days. But they fail to define what they consider a business day.



Ken

Good luck with that. What they state is "usually ships in 2-3 days" which is hardly a guarantee. Second, they state that all sales are final. Third, your CC company probably won't take immediate action, and by the time you get paperwork and send it back, you'll have the powder you ordered. My limited experience with CC complaints is that the process favors the vendor, not the cardholder. You wanted the powder, hold out for it.

[Screwbolts]

Geraldo: Thank you for the kind words. are you a rep for E. I. ?

Copied and pasted directly from their ETR7 page: "Availability:: Usually Ships in 1 to 2 Business Days"

Without shipping and delivery, no sale has occured, only thievery! They weren't bashful in taking my $450.25 10 days ago.

Ken

[Geraldo]

Nope, just a satisfied customer.

[Rhou45]

Made it out to the range here today. The weather was anice 49 degrees with a southernly wind ranging from 15-20 mph. That would beleft to right across the range. I had loaded up the ETR-7 powder in the 38 SPCand 45 Colt to run over my chrony.

While researching this powder I compared the load lists provided on the Expansion Industries (EI) website to the load data in several of my loading manuals. I compared the caliber, bullet weight, bullet type, and min/maxloads of the EI data. In the Hodgdon's 2013 Annual Manual Reloading(magazine) I found 14 loads using Universal that matched caliber, bulletweight, bullet type and min/max loads for ETR-7 from EI. I loaded the 38SPC using the recommended min/max from EI. Then I used the Hodgdon's 2013list for Universal as a guide for the 45 colt rounds, since EI offered no loadsfor this caliber.

The loads were:

In the 38 SPC: 158gr LSWC with 3.0, 3.2, and 3.4gr of ETR-7 as well as 158grLSWC with 4.4gr of unique.
In the 45c: 247gr LSWC with 6.5gr, 7.0, 7.5 (w/JFP), 8.0gr, 8.2gr, and 8.4grall with the ETR-7.

The weapons were:
Ruger Blackhawk with 6" barrel
Ruger Super Blackhawk with 4 5/8" barrel. (This gun has been tuned andcylinders/cone worked by Hamilton Bowen)

38 Results with ETR-7, the 3.0-3.4 gr 38 SPC loads with ETR-7 turned out to be"gallery/plinking" class loads.

3.0gr ETR-7 w 158gr LSWC Hi: 141.8/ Lo: 91.32/ AV 121/ ES 50.4
3.2gr ETR-7 w 158gr LSWC Hi: 183.9/ Lo: 143.3/ AV 163.6/ ES 40.6
3.4gr ETR-7 w 158gr LSWC Hi: 212.6/ Lo: 169.9/ AV 196.5/ ES 42.7

4.4gr Unquie w 158gr LSWC Hi: 339/ Lo: 200.7/ AV 250.8/ ES 139.7 (16 shotstotal with 3 unusually low)
Not counting the 3 low rounds the 13 shot average changed to- Hi: 339/ Lo:239.8/ AV 261.7/ ES 100. These rounds may have been caused when I was adjustingmy crimp. Could have been too light of crimp.

All the above 38 SPC rounds were very mild with no to minimum recoil, noflattening of primers, or excessive fouling. Most cases were free of fowlingand fell easily from the cylinder.

45 Colt rounds: 247gr LSWC with 6.5gr, 7.0, 7.5 (w/JFP), 8.0gr, 8.2gr, and8.4gr all with the ETR-7. The bullets were bought at a gun show as dropped froma 250gr LSWC mold, yet weighed an average of 247gr after lubing.

The Hodgdon 2013 Annual manual lists between 6.5 and 7.8 gr for a standard(not-ruger only load) for a 250gr cast LRNFP. Speed and pressure should be742/9,200 cup and 941/ 13,000 cup, respectively. The same manual lists a 300grJFP with min/max of 6.6 and 7.3 to range between 593/11,200 cup and 700/13,700cup, respectively.

The reports I was able to find online stated that ETR-7 was performing about10% less than Universal load data. With that in mind, I worked the loads upfrom the bottom of the recommended Universal 45c loads, and increasing grainincrements until I reached 8.4gr.

For instance the Hodgdon 2013 load recommended a max of 7.8gr of universal. 7.8x .10= .78, 7.8+.78= 8.58 max of ETR-7 to reach the estimated 941 fps load.

6.5 gr ETR-7 w 247gr LSWC Hi: 233.2/ Lo: 175.4/ AV 205.4/ ES 57.8
7.0 gr ETR-7 w 247gr LSWC Hi: 963/ Lo: 950.2/ AV 956.3/ES 12.8
7.5gr ETR-7 w 300gr JFP Hi: 208.3/ Lo: 186.7/AV 193/ ES 21.6 This load was overthe Hodgdon 2013 load by .2 gr and greatly underperformed to my expected velocities.
8.0gr ETR-7 w 247gr LSWC Hi: 965/ Lo: 945.2/ AV 957.5/ ES 19.8
8.2gr ETR-7 w 247gr LSWC Hi: 951.2/ Lo: 946.2/ AV 947/ ES 5 Very odd string!Consistent, yet lower velocities than the 8.0 and 8.4 gr loads.
8.4gr ETR-7 w 247gr LSWC Hi: 962.9/ Lo: 950.8/ AV 958.8/ ES 12.1

None of the 45c loads had flattened primers, all primers still had roundededges. Mild to moderate powder fowling on the cases. These cases were muchcleaner than my Titegroup loads. All cases easily came out of the cylinder,although none dropped out on their own, I normally have to push them out withthe cartridge extractor then pull them the rest of the way by hand. Which isnormal for all my 45 rounds both hand loaded and factory.
While this test was limited in depth of weapons andvolume of rounds, the end results of today's test:


1. Left me confident in the 8.0 to 8.4 gr weight behind a 250 class cast boolitin the mid 900 fps range. I will work with these gr weights more to furtherdefine the results.

2. I feel the EI recommended load of 3.0-3.4 gr is too light to maximize thepotential of the 158gr LSWC, I will try the hodgdon 2013 data usingUniversal from 3.5gr to 4.5gr next in the 38 SPC I believe this will performmuch better.

3. Increasing beyond the Hodgdon's Universal load data up to 10% showedsome truth to the reports I found online about the ETR-7's performance. Theuniversal 7.8gr should have a velocity of 941, with the ETR-7 I reached thatrange using between 8.0 - 8.4 gr.(actually less than 10% increase)

4. The JFP rounds need further developing, the hodgdon manual has a max ofUniversal of 7.3gr. The ETR-7 using 7.5 gr only pushed the bullet a max of208fps. Something was not right here. Some one help me here, heavier bullets +copper jacket should require more powder than a lighter cast bullet,right? Shouldn't I expect to be able to push this bullet using the same 8.0-8.4gr with less velocity and somewhat more pressure than the before mentioned247gr LSWC?

Disclaimer- I am not associated with EI nor a am I a paid spokesman, just a satisfied customer who is happy to have some "new" pistol powder to test. Nor do I recommend my load data for the use of others, I am simply sharing my results. Use with caution at your own risk and discretion, your results may vary.

For those waiting their shipments, global warming and the mail always suck. I hope you get your powder soon.

Ralph

[dragon813gt]

My limited experience with CC complaints is that the process favors the vendor, not the cardholder.
You have a poor credit card company and I would drop them immediately. Mine have issued a refund immediately and then the review happened. They have always ruled in my favor. In this case if the CC company issued a refund you'd be on the hook after the review. As soon as the CC company finds that you received the product, which is non refundable, you will be charged for it.

[bangerjim]

Good luck with that. What they state is "usually ships in 2-3 days" which is hardly a guarantee. Second, they state that all sales are final. Third, your CC company probably won't take immediate action, and by the time you get paperwork and send it back, you'll have the powder you ordered. My limited experience with CC complaints is that the process favors the vendor, not the cardholder. You wanted the powder, hold out for it.



The CC company is on YOUR side.....that is if you are a long-time good customer. I have had many "disputed" amounts on my several cards and each and every on (totalling well over $3k) have ALAWAYS settled in my favor with the funds in my account in a short time. A couple vendors raised a stink, but the CC came to my defense and vendors shut up.

Get a good card and keep your balance in check with ZERO balance carried forward...no interest $$. I have never paid one dime of interest in over 35 years on three cards.

banger-j

[Geraldo]

Thanks for the review of my credit. I have no balances and pay no interest. Yes, the card (Cabelas) took the amount off my bill immediately, then reinstated it when the vendor said "no refund policy" in their response. After an appeal I still ended up paying it. The process took at least two months. When I argued with the local company prior to the dispute, the guy told me exactly how it would play out and he was absolutely right. This lead me to believe that the CC is not on your side, and that if the vendor fights they will win.

My point to Screwbolts is that he'll have the powder before he'll have resolution in the dispute process.

Back on the topic, thanks Rhou45 for the data and review.

[tward]

Rhou45, I have been trying the ETR 7 in the 38 special and 44 Special and 45 Colt, unfortunately I do not have a chrono. I got up to 4.5 gr with the Lee 105 gr SWC and also with the Lee 125 gr RNFP and the Lee 158 gr SWC. In the Colt 45 I stopped at 7.5 gr not for pressure but because I was shooting a Contender with a paper thin octogon bbl and it got uncomfortable. Thanks for your great efforts, keep the data comming Tim:bigsmyl2:

[Rhou45]

Thanks Tward,

Your note on using 4.5 gr is reassuring.

Had I not used the chrony on the loads yesterday, I would have guessed the 3.0 loads were going in the 450-600 range. I often hear comments about "gallery" style loads being mild, with no recoil, with an estimated speed of 450-600, "moving so slow you could almost see them in the air", with occasional slugs stuck in the cylinder. My eyes aren't as good as they used to be, but I couldn't see the 100-200fps bullets in the air.

In the past I had always guestimated these loads to be in the above mentioned velocity range due to others guestimation. Using the chrony and seeing just how slow these loads were, made me double, then triple check the chrony for accuracy. I thought it was not working right.

I tried my rifles over it, good reading, then some factory ammo in the rugers, normal reading again.

In the past using the chrony I have always used powders with known min/max recommendations, and had never chrony'ed any of the gallery rounds. I was not concerned with them being slower with less pressure. Lesson learned. I will use it more from now on.

Once I bought the chrony about five years ago, it really changed the way I load. I am able to see how the grain variations affect my loads. One of the best pieces of gear I take to the range for testing purposes now.

[fotog54]

I just wanted to say I ordered 8# on March 10, I was notified it shipped on March 13 and it arrived today. There was a slight mess up on my address but I was able to track down the FedEx guy!

They seem to have good service, I guess every once in a while an order gets lost!

Now if I can only find some good .45 ACP recipes with coated 200 grn bullets!

Looks like I need to buy a Cronograph!

[Screwbolts]

I am still waiting for the order I placed 3-3-15 @ 8:39 AM to arrive.

You need to get a Micrometer if you don't already have one, a crony is great. But pressure is far more important to read than FPS if safety is consideration. Ken Waters in his book "pet loads" will teach you how.

Ken

[bangerjim]

It has arrived! A day early even!

Loaded up about 25ea) 38SPL with 138gn NLG slugs powder coated with Smoke's blue. Used 3.3 and 3.8 gn for testing. The powder is light weight and brownish (about the color of TrailBoss), but feeds in my SAECO measure just fine. I will have to compare the look to the other powders I have "in stock". Looks NOTHING like TiteGroup. Weight per volume is NOTHING like TiteGroup. Much bulkier. (the only reason I mention it is because they reference TG on their website.)

Shot VERY clean. No smoke that I could see. Recoil on those lighter loads was nothing in the S&W 357.

Next - to load some 357 MAG's with full load and FMJ slugs and let 'em rip.

Then develop some nice lighter plinking loads for 45LC's.

I think I will be liking this powder.....especially at the price!!!!!!

banger-j

[Rhou45]

Congratulations Bangerjim.

I look forward to reading your results with this powder as well. You are right, it looks nothing like TG at all and definitely measures different as well.

You mentioned the 3.3 loads was nothing, which reflects my own results, but you did not mention the 3.8 recoil. Was it more in line with normal 38SPL loads? Did you notice? I expect they would be around the normal 38SPL recoil range but without any signs of excessive pressure. Is that right?

So far I am liking this powder as well.

On another note, I received an email from Expansion Industries (EI) today stating they have Sellier & Bellot large and small primers in stock for 114.95 per 5k for those interested.

[bangerjim]

Congratulations Bangerjim.

I look forward to reading your results with this powder as well. You are right, it looks nothing like TG at all and definitely measures different as well.

You mentioned the 3.3 loads was nothing, which reflects my own results, but you did not mention the 3.8 recoil. Was it more in line with normal 38SPL loads? Did you notice? I expect they would be around the normal 38SPL recoil range but without any signs of excessive pressure. Is that right?

So far I am liking this powder as well.

On another note, I received an email from Expansion Industries (EI) today stating they have Sellier & Bellot large and small primers in stock for 114.95 per 5k for those interested.

The 3.8 load was very comfortable and somewhat close to a standard 38 comm load. I can't quote speeds because I do not do the "chrony dance". But they are good 'nuff for my humble plinking tasks! Lots of shooting for little $$.

No signs of excess pressure. Just excess signs of fun and games to come!

It was a quick load-up this afternoon and I plan to do more this week for 38's, 45LC's and probably 40 S&W.

As more people get their hands on this, I hope the list thier results.

banger-j

[FLINTNFIRE]

I ordered on 2-11 arrived around 2-26 have not had a chance as am using up the last of powderi have been loading for 9mm and 40 s&w when done shooting that I will load and chrono this powder , I was waiting for quite awhile to I only called after tracking number did not work , they found the error and gave me correct number , am pleased , some things do take time , hope all get what they ordered and like it , now back to casting as I ran out of 40 and am low on 9mm , time to fire up the pot...

[Screwbolts]

Congratulations Bangerjim. I am glad that everyone has gotten there orders.

My order is now on the truck that is supposed to deliver it today. being it is going to a business, it should show up today.

I look forward to your 40 S&W results, If you were closer you could use my crony. I find the Micrometer is more important than a crony when working with somewhat unknown powders.

Fire a few factory loaded rounds in a gun, use those cases only, and that gun only, to work up loads with unknown powder until you get the same amount of case expansion as the factory loads read/indicate. You will then be at or very close to the same pressure that the factory loaded, that were deemed safe. A Crony will only tell you FPS, not that you may be surpassing safe pressure or have not gotten to same level of pressure as factory loads. Kinda self evident.

Ken

[Screwbolts]

My order arrived today.

Ken

[Black Powder Bill]

I had a box arrive a week after ordering. Shoots very! Clean out of the 32.20 rifle. Loaded a few 38's but have not fired them. I was hoping to sell some here locally.? But it seems their is this new zombie hoard of reloaders that have popped up in the last 3 years.

They're just are not as creative as some of us are.

I loaded using 3 then 3.5 and now I'm up to 4gr. Under a 100 gr boolit.

Used the same load data I had for titegroup and bullseye.
I
If any of you are close and want to try this powder give me a call. I have 1lb jugs available.

[bangerjim]

I had a box arrive a week after ordering. Shoots very! Clean out of the 32.20 rifle. Loaded a few 38's but have not fired them. I was hoping to sell some here locally.? But it seems their is this new zombie hoard of reloaders that have popped up in the last 3 years.

They just are not as creative as some of us are.

I loaded using 3 then 3.5 and now I'm up to 4gr. Under a 100 gr boolit.

Used the same load data I had for titegroup and bullseye.
I
If any of you are close and want to try this powder give me a call. I have 1lb jugs available.

I am studying the charts and agree that I will probably use the published TiteGroup data (as their site claims), as almost EVERYTHING I cast and shoot has TG data. TG is my go-to powder right now and I like it a whole bunch. Will be interested to see if ETR7 is position sensitive......TG does not seem to be. ETR7 is a bulkier powder than TG. Guess that is good if you worry about 2x charging of powder. You can definitely see 2X in a 38SPL case.

The 25 carts I shot yesterday were clean and virtually smoke-free!

Good stuff.

banger

[bangerjim]

My order arrived today.

Ken

Praise the Lord and pass (er....make) the ammunition!!!!!!!!!!! :drinks:

Congrats.

banger

[Rhou45]

Congratulations Screwbolts! I look forward to your findings with this powder. I agree with your thoughts/recommendations on the micrometer testing of the cases, a very valuable tool.


Ralph

[tward]

screw bolts, [smilie=p: :bigsmyl2: [smilie=l: Finally! Tim

[Screwbolts]

Thank you for the kind words and thoughts.:cbpour::lovebooli:cast_boolits::Luvcastb oolits::guntootsmiley: Ken

[Artful]

Congratulations Screwbolts!

Did you find out what happened for the delay
- your order just fell between the cracks or something else?

Hope your happy with the powder - I got mine today - (Thank You Jim) so am going to load some up and try tomorrow.

[kfarm]

I put in an order for 10k of the S&B small pistol primers been using Wolf but since the government knows best, I'll try the S&B primers.

[Geraldo]

I had a small amount of TiteGroup left, so I loaded three test batches of .45acp with starting loads of Unique, TiteGroup, and ETR7 respectively. I should be able to get out and chrono them this week.

[Trinidad Bill]

I loaded up some .45ACP, 4.8-9gr, 230gr LFP. Ran them through my Glock and S&W M1917. Both performed flawlessly and accurately. I will run them through the chronograph tomorrow to get a velocity check and compare them against a 4.5 gr Bullseye load.

Meters quite well in my Lee ProPowder through the adjustable charge bar on my Pro 1000. Bulkier than Unique, and easy to handle. Fills the .45 ACP case about 2/3s.

[Screwbolts]

The data listed on EI page seems to be very good.

Ken

[abqcaster]

I got to the range yesterday and shot the .380s and 9mm I loaded up with the ETR7. I compared the ETR7 to 700X, because Titegroup (data recommended by Exp Ind) and 700X data were identical in the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook. The bullet for the 380s was a lee .356-102-1R and for the 9mm was a lee 356-125-2R, and both used Tula SPPs and WIN brass in their respective caliber.

I did not get to measure the 700X loaded 9mm, because I was trying a new lube method and leaded the heck out of my barrel with just the ETR7 9mm Loads. Generally speaking though, the powder burns super clean and completely, much cleaner than the 700X. Also, there were no high pressure signs but the ETR7 felt "snappier," for what its worth. The ETR7 loads we all very consistent; charges were dispensed from a Lee Perfect Powder Measure. I plan on increasing my charges of ETR7 by 0.1grn and be good with it.

Data summaries below:



String:
1






Date:
03/22/15






Bullet Grains:
95






Caliber:
380






Powder Grains:
2.2






Data Source:
Lyman Cast Bullet Handboook












Hi-Skor 700X







Velocity
Power Factor
Ft/Lbs
avg velocity
extreme spread
Std dev


681
64.695
97.818
706.9
79
28.77



680
64.6
97.531





749
71.155
118.328





716
68.02
108.131





698
66.31
102.763





725
68.875
110.867





743
70.585
116.44





727
69.065
111.479





670
63.65
94.684





680
64.6
97.531













ETR7
(using Titegroup data)





Velocity
Power Factor
Ft/Lbs

avg velocity

extreme spread

Std dev


638
60.61
85.855
648.8
71
27.34



625
59.375
82.392





670
63.65
94.684





611
58.045
78.742





617
58.615
80.296





660
62.7
91.878





680
64.6
97.531





682
64.79
98.106





674
64.03
95.818





631
59.945
83.982













% diference between avg velocites

8.95%





9mm with 3.9gr ETR7



String:
6



Date:
3/22/2015



Time:
9:12:18 PM



Grains:
125



Hi Vel:
998



Low Vel:
922



Ave Vel:
962



Ext Spread:
76



Std Dev:
24





9mm 125 lee




Velocity
Power Factor
Ft/Lbs



978
122.25
265.454



967
120.875
259.516


978
122.25
265.454


922
115.25
235.925


992
124
273.108


942
117.75
246.271


998
124.75
276.422


962
120.25
256.839


943
117.875
246.794


947
118.375
248.892

[Geraldo]

I didn't realize my 35P printer wasn't feeding correctly until after I had fired one group, so data is limited to average and SD.

Colt 1911 5" barrel. Bullet is a 230gr cast TC, sized .452 and lubed with Alox. All rounds were loaded on the same day, all charges measured using an RCBS Chargemaster. Ten rounds of each were fired over an Oehler 35P.

Group 1: 4.5gr TiteGroup Velocity 802fps SD 13

Group 2: 5.5gr Unique Velocity 760fps SD 22

Group 3: 4.5gr ETR7 Velocity 679fps SD 31

[fotog54]

I didn't realize my 35P printer wasn't feeding correctly until after I had fired one group, so data is limited to average and SD.

Colt 1911 5" barrel. Bullet is a 230gr cast TC, sized .452 and lubed with Alox. All rounds were loaded on the same day, all charges measured using an RCBS Chargemaster. Ten rounds of each were fired over an Oehler 35P.

Group 1: 4.5gr TiteGroup Velocity 802fps SD 13

Group 2: 5.5gr Unique Velocity 760fps SD 22

Group 3: 4.5gr ETR7 Velocity 679fps SD 31

Your data shows what I have seen from others who have chronographed their loads, that ETR7 is closer to Universal (but not quite) at least in .45 ACP loads. It looks like for the .45 ACP a good starting point will be Universal loads -10%.

[Artful]

Today's test @ Rainbow
Colt 1911A1 with Threaded Barrel 5.8" - no suppressor attached
Detonic's double spring guided assembly - all loads functioned
Temp 80 F
Mixed Nickled Cases - Federal Large Pistol primers - Berry Plated 230gn RN 1.265" OAL
Not shot for group (shooting on steel) just Velocity 10 each loaded not all hit both chrono screens
Grains-Velocity
4.5 - 677,715,710,716,685,697,683,678,697 - ES 39 - Av 695
4.7 - 704,724,740,732,663,713,703,742,715,697 - ES 79 - Av 713
4.9 - 776,775,745,723,786,778,765,697 - ES 89 - Av 755
5.1 - 750,754,785,760,821,796,791,817,815,816 - ES 71 - Av 790
5.3 - 819,803,825,832,827,755,817,833,817,808 - ES 78 - Av 813
5.5 - 855,872,856,859,861,836,852,854,836 - ES 36 - Av - 863
Unique
6.0 - 910,911

[Artful]

going to run 3 mag's of 45 ACP for accuracy in various upper end loads, but thought I'd give it a try for a 45-70 load - so loaded up 20 with 10.0 grn under 300 FP (307 w/ lube) - anyone else try as plinker load powder?

[bangerjim]

going to run 3 mag's of 45 ACP for accuracy in various upper end loads, but thought I'd give it a try for a 45-70 load - so loaded up 20 with 10.0 grn under 300 FP (307 w/ lube) - anyone else try as plinker load powder?

I use TiteGroup in my 223's, 30-30's and 30-06's all the time in plinking loads. No reason why ET would not work with approx. the same load data from the books.

banger-j

[hollywood63]

Where on their site is load data?

[Brad Cayton]

Where on their site is load data?

They will email the load data to you.
mailto:LoadingData@etr7.Expansion-Industries.com (LoadingData@etr7.Expansion-Industries.com)

I ordered some last night myself

[Screwbolts]

Where on their site is load data?

On the page for ETR7, the powder in question.

[Artful]

Well, 10 grains in 45-70 with 300 cast was pleasant to shoot - didn't notice position sensitivity but as just shooting dirt - didn't seal the brass so a little smokey - best grouping of 45 acp in my 1911 was 5.1 grains and 5.5 grains - conditions were windy as heck and had to set up the target stand multiple times even with two sand bags on it. May need to chrono the 45-70 and try it on paper. And am happy that my mauser that was having issue with firing pin was fixed by replacing the cocking piece. Overall a great day up in Prescott!

[SeabeeMan]

I loaded some 9mm with 4.4 gr the other day and everything shot well. This was backyard, check for signs of pressure and function kind of stuff. I did notice that the cases looked like they had a light layer of soot on them, but it might also have been from the Ben's LL on the boolits I was testing with. I know I had too much on there and this was just with a Hi-point, which is blowback operated.

[Screwbolts]

rick kildow, And what was the projectile weight, was it cast, from what mold that you loaded the 4.4 gr under?

Ken

[Walla2]

I ordered the ETR-7 powder from them and it shipped almost immediately. I haven't had a lot of clear weather to sort it out though. I also ordered primers from them on March 18. Just yesterday I got notice that all primers orders would ship on Friday. Quite a lag in time for primers I think.

[SeabeeMan]

It was a Lee 356-102-2R mold cast from COWW, sized to .358 and lubed with Scarlet Ceresin and Ben's LL. I came up with 4.4gr based on the loads like Titegroup statement and Titegroup going from 4.2 to 4.7 with this boolit in the Lyman cast manuals and the little Lyman load data book (which I'm pretty sure is just snippets from the full book, anyways.) I started at 4.2 but it wouldn't cycle my one of my pistols so I worked up to 4.4 with absolutely no signs of pressure.

[Screwbolts]

rich kildow: thanks for listing the boolit and weight. The lightest I have loaded is a 125gr boolit with etr7 .

Ken

[SeabeeMan]

Absolutely. That load worked well in 4 different guns: Hi-point pistol, Hi-point carbine, LC9, and a S&W 3913, so I'm going to call it good.

[hollywood63]

Emailed for the load data and asked a couple questions on Sunday. Must be busy haven't heard back. Can someone post the data?

[SeabeeMan]

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb389/rich_kildow/Reloading/ETR7%20Powder%20Loading%20Data-page-001_zps3dks0v2f.jpg (http://s1203.photobucket.com/user/rich_kildow/media/Reloading/ETR7%20Powder%20Loading%20Data-page-001_zps3dks0v2f.jpg.html)

http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb389/rich_kildow/Reloading/ETR7%20Powder%20Loading%20Data-page-002_zpsg8apeqzn.jpg (http://s1203.photobucket.com/user/rich_kildow/media/Reloading/ETR7%20Powder%20Loading%20Data-page-002_zpsg8apeqzn.jpg.html)

[SeabeeMan]

Wow, this might be the first thing I've actually contributed back to this forum. Feels pretty good!

[jonp]

Jonp, IMHO, you should have used the purple font, or re read the quote. In a nut shell, he dropped 10 charges in the pan and they combined weighed 37.8 gr for a total of ten. But you already knew that right. [smilie=l:

Ken

Purple font! That is what I should have used, hehe. Yes, I knew what he meant but I couldn't help it.

The price for the S&B is a couple of bucks cheaper than Graf's. I went to Graf's because I wanted to try Vectan out.

[hollywood63]

Thank You

[Screwbolts]

Purple font! That is what I should have used, hehe. Yes, I knew what he meant but I couldn't help it.

The price for the S&B is a couple of bucks cheaper than Graf's. I went to Graf's because I wanted to try Vectan out.

I did like your sense of humor, and I agree it would have been one heck of a bang. :cbpour:I to would like to try the Vectan powders, also like Graf and sons.

Ken

[chumly2071]

Finally got a chance to get some stuff loaded, and take to a friend's to test on his home range. (I'm pretty noobie with this, so bear with me)

Loaded 30 rounds ea of 4.1, 4.3, and 4.5 grains of the ETR7 behind a Berry's plated 115 grain projectile with Tula small pistol primers, 1.125 COAL. Shot 10 of each of those loads in an XDM 3.8, XDM 5.25, and a Beretta 92FS. Also loaded 10 rounds to 4.4 grains and shot in the XDM 5.25

I shot 10 rounds out of the XDM 5.25 with Winchester White Box 115 grain FMJ for comparison.

AT 4.5 grains, I was seeing pressure signs with the primers starting to extrude around the firing pin on the 92FS.

The Winchester was very smokey in comparison to the ETR7 stuff. Very little smoke noticeable with the ETR7.

Used a Shooting Chrony Beta Master for velocity, and Excel for the stats.

[Screwbolts]

Chumly2071, you did great! Your velocity readings parallel mine in barrel lengths. Good work.

Ken

[chumly2071]

Chumly2071, you did great! Your velocity readings parallel mine in barrel lengths. Good work.

Ken


I have a long, long way to go. Been collecting equipment and components since 2008/9 to play in this stuff, and life getting in the way plus laziness plus being hesitant, I finally got to doing something with all of it. Hoping to do a lot more of it.

[Black Powder Bill]

223 cast boolit gas checked
Ideal 225462
.2263 dia
OAL 2.040 'ish
5.0 gr ETR7 @ 50 yards .
Primers Winchester and Federal SRP.
Cost to load maybe .15c ea.

See the 3 holes in the body , the spread is my wobbly *** .
The two above the head are 55fmj loads and I'd tell you the info on those but I can't find it.
No chrony, shot cleaner than the FMJ. Barrel clean, no lead! Sounded like a 22rf & no recoil at all.
So with 3 cartridges fired , I'm happy and will tweak the load.

I took an old Lyman manual Cast Bullets from 1958 and found references to the boolit above which listed a 5.0 gr Unique load for small game.

The boolits were ones I got off of one of the guys here, Lee Forsberg.:grin:

FYI the phone number is the old one from New Yorkisstan, no longer mine.

[Artful]

Squirrel !

[Black Powder Bill]

Here are 2 pages from the Lyman Cast bullet hand book circa 1958 on the 225462 .22cal

[xacex]

So, this looks like it might be an answer to my worries about Universal no longer being produced after next year. I have a load that absolutely works great with the Mihec 200 grain H/P 45ACP boolit in any 1911 or Glock I have tried it in, but I have used up all my Universal. Nothing else has come close to that load. I wish I could just try out a little of the stuff without being put out for several pounds. Like a quarter pound sample pack. It is all I need to see if it is the answer.

[Black Powder Bill]

Universal? Impicked up a 8#er last fall from my local wholesaler. I took the etr7 in to offer customers. Sold 2 # so far. A lot of new reloaders now days all fixated on mall ninja fast gun shoot em up games.

Don't know about those guys. I figure one day soon well be flooded in components from people looking to cash out fast.

[SeabeeMan]

So, this looks like it might be an answer to my worries about Universal no longer being produced after next year. I have a load that absolutely works great with the Mihec 200 grain H/P 45ACP boolit in any 1911 or Glock I have tried it in, but I have used up all my Universal. Nothing else has come close to that load. I wish I could just try out a little of the stuff without being put out for several pounds. Like a quarter pound sample pack. It is all I need to see if it is the answer.

Wish you were closer, I'd gladly hook you up in the name of load development!

[chumly2071]

Was just on their website, and they have XTR7 back down to $60/4#.

Also are taking pre-orders on what they are calling EMC77 rifle powder at $79.99/4#. Claims to be a ball powder that loads like H335.

[Black Powder Bill]

I'd hold off on their pre orders. They shorted me as a dealer~ IMO you don't offer your dealers a deal then make the same offer to the public and expect a dealer to sell a product. OR have the dealer sitting and waiting on ammunition that could have been sold the day it arrived.
Good powder BUT~ but my cartridge order should have been here 4 weeks ago. So far the 380 & 9mm arrived but not the other 4,000 rounds.

BAD FOR BUSINESS I may have to recall my credit card charge if the order does not arrive soon.
Also while I'm on a wholesale rant.
Fricken CDNN is offering Remington 22lr bucket at $149.99 & bricks at $49.99 WTH !! I see guys flipping the same buckets for $80.00 to $100.00

Ya know I'll start a new thread for this...Flipping the dealers on prices and orders!

[xacex]

Wish you were closer, I'd gladly hook you up in the name of load development!
You're a good man.

[xacex]

I'd hold off on their pre orders. They shorted me as a dealer~ IMO you don't offer your dealers a deal then make the same offer to the public and expect a dealer to sell a product. OR have the dealer sitting and waiting on ammunition that could have been sold the day it arrived.
Good powder BUT~ but my cartridge order should have been here 4 weeks ago. So far the 380 & 9mm arrived but not the other 4,000 rounds.

BAD FOR BUSINESS I may have to recall my credit card charge if the order does not arrive soon.
Also while I'm on a wholesale rant.
Fricken CDNN is offering Remington 22lr bucket at $149.99 & bricks at $49.99 WTH !! I see guys flipping the same buckets for $80.00 to $100.00

Ya know I'll start a new thread for this...Flipping the dealers on prices and orders!

I noticed the CDNN offer was on the Thunder duds too. Worst .22lr out there in my opinion. I have good luck with the Golden Bullets, but those thunderbolts are garbage. I am hoping to spy some 8#'s of Universal before they stop offering it next year. I figure 16-24 pounds should get me through till I find something else. I am certainly hoping they change their mind on the continued production.

[dragon813gt]

While Universal(AP70N) is going away there will be a replacement for it. I'm expecting this w/ all powders from all manufacturers. Environmental regs, especially in Europe, seem to be the driving force behind this. If the new powders perform well then it's not a big deal. But it's looking like this is the way it's headed.

[DanOH]

What's the word on the S&B primers they sell. $114.95 per 5000 large and small pistol seems like a decent price (available!)
Are they considered a hard/soft cup as in ok for striker fired pistols that may be finicky?

[Artful]

What's the word on the S&B primers they sell. $114.95 per 5000 large and small pistol seems like a decent price (available!)
Are they considered a hard/soft cup as in ok for striker fired pistols that may be finicky?

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?176901-S-amp-B-brand-primers-BIG-DISAPPOINTMENT!!!

[abqcaster]

FWIW Powder Valley has a slightly better price on the S&B primers. Also FWIW, the last time I tried to place an order with EI, they charged separate hazmat fees for primers and powder, while PV did not. Needless to say, I placed my last order through PV, with lower prices and one hazmat fee. Having said that, EI still has very competitive prices and are my back up "go-to" vendor. I'm very pleased with their powder, and they have very personable and helpful customer service. They get a hat tip from me.

[DanOH]

OK I guess I'll pass on the S&B's.

[bangerjim]

Refering to the company load data, I started working on some 9mm's yesterday and noted reeeeeeeeeeel fast that using those loads, the case is almost full and could/will create a compressed load once the boolit is stuffed in to correct OAL. I really do not like compressed loads in those teeny weeny cases.

I scuttled the ETR7 on these 9mm's and went back to my ole' standard TiteGroup, since is it a fast dense powder and does not fill the case way up. And shoots great!

Any thoughts or experience out there so far on 9mm?

This bulky stuff works great in all my 223/38SPL/45LC loads. Haven't done any 40SW yet.

banger-j :2gunsfiring_v1:

[abqcaster]

Here is what I got: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?268571-Expansion-Industries&p=3189763&viewfull=1#post3189763

About 960fps with a 125gr boolit on top of 3.9gr of ETR7. Seems reasonable to me. I used Titegroup data as well and it seems to be in agreement with the CSB1 data in this Italian article that Baladel45 posted here: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?244087-CSB1-powder&p=3201770&viewfull=1#post3201770

Someone else linked to a forum that very well confirms that ETR7 is CSB1.
-ABQ

[shooterg]

I talked a couple friends into buying this stuff. Me, I'm good with 5.4 gr. pushing the H&G 68 out of 1911's at steel plates.

Carson is more meticulous than me and owns a chronograph, I'm posting his results below. So far all I know that use this are happy campers - I'm going to get some more myself !

April 21, 2015 Range Tests
61-64 deg. F, Breezy, Scattered Clouds

.45 ACP Remington R1, Enhanced w/5” bbl.

Winchester Brass, Federal GM150M Primer
5.0 grs. Expansion Industries ETR7 Powder *
.452”, Oregon Trail 200 gr. SWC
O.A.L. 1.240”, Taper Crimped to .470”

1. 846 fps
2. 846 “
3. 831 “
4. 854 “
5. 848 “

Extreme Spread 23, Average Velocity 845 fps, Standard Deviation 8
1.875” group at 25 yds.

.45 ACP Remington R1, Enhanced w/5” bbl.

Winchester Brass, Federal GM150M Primer
5.0 grs. Expansion Industries ETR7 Powder *
.452”, Oregon Trail 200 gr. SWC
O.A.L. 1.240”, Taper Crimped to .470”

1. 834 fps
2. 846 “
3. 838 “
4. 817 “
5. 848 “

Extreme Spread 31, Average Velocity 836 fps, Standard Deviation 12
Very good grouping at 25 yds.

.45 ACP Remington R1, Enhanced w/5” bbl.

Winchester Brass, Federal GM150M Primer
5.0 grs. Expansion Industries ETR7 Powder *
.452”, RCBS 45-201-SWC, Pure Linotype
O.A.L. 1.240”, Taper Crimped to .470”

1. 879 fps
2. 863 “
3. 865 “
4. 845 “
5. 883 “

Extreme Spread 38, Average Velocity 867 fps, Standard Deviation 15
2.125” group at 25 yds. (4 inside 1.067”)




.45 ACP Remington R1, Enhanced w/5” bbl.

Winchester Brass, Federal GM150M Primer
5.0 grs. Expansion Industries ETR7 Powder *
.452”, RCBS 45-201-SWC, Pure Linotype
O.A.L. 1.240”, Taper Crimped to .470”

1. 845 fps
2. 841 “
3. 836 “
4. 862 “
5. 875 “

Extreme Spread 40 , Average Velocity 852 fps, Standard Deviation 16
2.250” group at 25 yds.


.45 ACP Remington R1, Enhanced w/5” bbl.

Winchester Brass, Federal GM150M Primer
5.0 grs. Expansion Industries ETR7 Powder *
.452”, RCBS 45-200-SWC, Pure Linotype
O.A.L. 1.190”, Taper Crimped to .470” (Two grease grooves)

1. 901 fps
2. 924 “
3. 903 “
4. 900 “
5. 908 “

Extreme Spread 24, Average Velocity 907 fps, Standard Deviation 19 2.875” group at 25 yds. (3 inside .813”)


.45 ACP Remington R1, Enhanced w/5” bbl.

Winchester Brass, Federal GM150M Primer
5.0 grs. Expansion Industries ETR7 Powder *
.452”, RCBS 45-200-SWC, Pure Linotype
O.A.L. 1.190”, Taper Crimped to .470” (Two grease grooves)

1. 906 fps
2. 905 “
3. 913 “
4. 916 “
5. 904 “

Extreme Spread 12, Average Velocity 908 fps, Standard Deviation 5
Grouping not real good, blame shooter






Ruger New Model, Blackhawk .44 S&W Special w/5.5” bbl.

Starline Brass, Federal #150 Primer
6.8 grs. Expansion Industries ETR7 Powder *
.430”, RCBS 245 gr. KT SWC, 1-Tin / 15 Lead

1. 922 fps
2. 919 “
3. 916 “
4. 908 “
5. 921 “

Extreme Spread 14, Average Velocity 917 fps, Standard Deviation 5
2.75” group at 25 yds. (3 inside .813”.


Ruger New Model, Blackhawk .44 S&W Special w/5.5” bbl.

Starline Brass, Federal #150 Primer
6.8 grs. Expansion Industries ETR7 Powder *
.430”, RCBS 245 gr. KT SWC, 1-Tin / 15 Lead

1. 919 fps
2. 910 “
3. 922 “
4. 932 “
5. 928 “

Extreme Spread 22, Average Velocity 922 fps, Standard Deviation 8
Grouping not real good, blame shooter


Ruger New Model, Blackhawk .44 S&W Special w/5.5” bbl.

Starline Brass, Federal #150 Primer
7.0 grs. Expansion Industries ETR7 Powder *
.430”, RCBS 245 gr. KT SWC, 1-Tin / 15 Lead

1. 964 fps
2. 960 “
3. 976 “
4. 966 “
5. 963 “

Extreme Spread 16, Average Velocity 965 fps, Standard Deviation 6
2.438” group at 25 yds. Strung vertically, had to be shooter









Ruger New Model, Blackhawk .44 S&W Special w/5.5” bbl.

Starline Brass, Federal #150 Primer
7.0 grs. Expansion Industries ETR7 Powder *
430”, RCBS 245 gr. KT SWC, 1-Tin / 15 Lead

1. 961 fps
2. 956 “
3. 968 “
4. 962 “
5. 957 “

Extreme Spread 12, Average Velocity 960 fps, Standard Deviation 4
Groups well at 25 yds.


Ruger New Model, Blackhawk .44 S&W Special w/5.5” bbl.

Hornady Brass, Federal #150 Primer
7.5 grs. Alliant Power Pistol
.430”, RCBS 245 gr. KT SWC, 1-Tin / 15 Lead

1. 962 fps
2. 982 “
3. 954 “
4. 972 “
5. 962 “

Extreme Spread 28, Average Velocity 966 fps, Standard Deviation 10
Decent grouping


* Expansion Industries ETR7 Powder burns as clean as or cleaner than any other powder I’ve ever used.

[abqcaster]

I got it to meter properly, now. I upgraded to Lee ProAutodisk. I cant get it to meter well with the adjustable charge bar, but it perfectly dispenses 3.9gr with the .53 orifice disk. This gets me a nice 960fps average velocity with Lee 356-125-2R boolits. Thanks for all of your info guys! I love this thread!
-ABQ

I used it to load up some 9mm with Lee 356-125 2R, and I still got binding/bridging in my Lee Autodisk dispenser (charge bar), with 3.8gr charges. It works really well in my Perfect Powder measure though. I guess that's the route I'll be taking from now on with this powder, as I bought it almost exclusively for .380 and 9mm. If anybody has any tips to prevent binding, I'm all ears.

[shooterg]

For you Texas guys, apparently the Spanish company loading Rio shotshells is building a manufacturing site there. Maybe you can slide by the factory and pick up a barrel of powder !!

[9w1911]

I am going to get 4 or 8 pounds of this soon :)

[bangerjim]

It is out of stock now.

[9w1911]

wow really I did not check

[Artful]

Looks like it's back




http://www.expansion-industries.com/v/vspfiles/templates/steel/images/clear1x1.gif



http://www.expansion-industries.com/v/vspfiles/templates/steel/images/clear1x1.gif




Our Price: $72.00






Quantity in Stock:68
Availability:: Usually Ships in 3 to 5 Business Days

Product Code: ETR7-4LB





And looks like they are offering a 7% discount code


1. Enclosed in this email is a coupon code for a one-time 7% discount. Real Money straight off the top. Thank you for supporting our year of growth.

2. As of July 4th, 2015, Expansion Industries is proud to announce our rewards program for ammunition purchases. Full details will be on our new website soon. Here are the basics. For every $ 400.00 spent on ammunition sales you will receive a retail coupon by email for $ 10.00 off your next order. Simple and Easy. Real Money straight off the top.

3. We also will be offering a similar program to earn points when you refer your friends. Another thank you for sharing our brand and values program with the shooting community. Details for this program will be on our web site soon so keep checking back for updates.

We are committed to you our valued customers. Thank you standing by us, and thank you for all of your feedback during this time. You are all a blessing to us. We believe in the future of our relationship and will continue to exercise our God given right of freedom to manufacture value priced quality target ammunition now and into the foreseeable future.




www.expansion-industries.com (http://emarketing.techadvantage.co/link.php?M=560&N=32&L=18&F=H)
Coupon Code: "THX2015"


https://cdn3.bigcommerce.com/s-p2wkzv/product_images/uploaded_images/coupon-code-apology-email-exp-ind.jpg?t=1436543226 (http://emarketing.techadvantage.co/link.php?M=560&N=32&L=23&F=H)

[bangerjim]

Yes......got that coupon by email today also. Looks like they are in it for the long haul.

I really like the stuff.

banger

[kfarm]

Yep I got their email as well but its almost a little to late for me.
After the what they pulled on the rifle powder, that is taking peoples money on a pre order before they had a product in stock hoping to get it in before folks got mad, without any follow up notification got me upset. After a couple of months of emails to them with no response I did get an excuse email. However a couple of weeks later I did get a better response from an email I sent. With a follow up several weeks later stating that they would send pistol powder as a substitute if I liked. Shortly thereafter I got 8 lbs of pistol an a thousand primer's as a substitute for 8 lbs of the nonexistent rifle powder. I'm hoping that they can get their stuff together and become a viable company competing with the big guys. Will I order from them again, yes I will but it will only be for items in stock. I'm hoping my experience with them was not the norm but an exception.

[Black Powder Bill]

Yea I like the powder, etr7 but having to wait four months for my ammo is BS! I lost a sale and finally ,again it is suppose to ship Monday?

Then EI goes out offering everyone the same pricing as the dealers.

Not me ,Not again!


And I better get more 223 to replace the 5.56 62 gr I paid extra for too!

All is promised... But EI really screwed up!taking orders on not in stock product Heck! I could do that too!

FYI I was at the LGS last week and they had more powders that most of my wholesale houses.

[csatrustburg]

I live twenty minutes from them seem like good people I did buy a pound of it but have not loaded any yet a friend is buying a noe HTC mold and we are going to try it in 9mm Pc. Will update when we try it if you look on vaguntrader there was a group of guys that ran a pile of tests and out of the pistols said 9mm was the best! But that was with berry's plated!

[Black Powder Bill]

1200 rounds of green tip and 250 223 arrived last week. More to come.

That's since March

2 emails back and forth it's now August 26th.
I called again today to see what I'm getting. I had requested the rest of the order in 9mm. They seem to be selling out the door local and at gun shows. You'd think they would take care of the dealers first. IMO seems many distributors have gone to over the counter sales and the LGS discount isn't all that great in ammo prices.