New Baby In The House: S&W 15-4

[jonp]

Picked up the new handgun yesterday after work and as the seller told me it appears unfired in the box. Came with the cleaning tools and paperwork.
From the SN 84k-xxxx it appears to have been made in 1980. Great shape for a 35yr old gun. My quest for 75,000 WC Begins!

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[osteodoc08]

Good luck on your quest. Nice look shooter you've got there.

[tazman]

Now I'm jealous.[smilie=b:

[Love Life]

Nice shoes!

[Petrol & Powder]

That's a nice one!
A 4", Square-butt, S&W K-frame in 38 Special may be revolver nirvana, or very close to it.

[jonp]

Well, I loaded up 10 with a lee 145gr wc over 2.7grs Promo and it didn't go so well. Major malfunction. The timing was way off. Sometimes it would be fine and sometimes the cylinder would overturn causeing a strike on the side of the primer and a misfire or it wouldn't turn far enough. Ugh.
So, inside it went and I stripped the sideplate off, cleaned it with hoppes and put some oil on everything then put it back together. 30 or 40 pulls of the trigger and it seems fine now. First time I have had to do this but it sat long enough that I guess it was just dry.

[JWFilips]

Super Shooter ...I got one ! I love it!! Most times It is my carry...as long as I'm dressed well:-P
YOU WILL ENJOY THIS!!! Congratulations!

[Petrol & Powder]

If the lock work had old thick grease in it, that failure is possible. The cylinder bolt will hang in the slot and the hand will advance the cylinder too far. Usually some solvent will fix the problem.

[Petrol & Powder]

Any status update?

[Virginia John]

The lesson to be learned here is thoroughly clean any weapon that comes into your possession whether old or new prior to shooting it.

[Char-Gar]

You have a very fine handgun that will give you a lifetime of enjoyment and service. The Smith and Wesson Combat Masterpiece (Model 15) is the highest expression of a 4" S&W K frame. Never, ever sell it! Lots of thought went into the design of this handgun. The taper on the barrel was designed to allow it to slip free of the holster after it had come up just a fraction of an inch eliminating any drag on the leather.

Over the years, I have owned three or four of these including one that was US Air Force surplus. At one time the AF issued these to their security forces. There were many of them out there, and the used ones sold for a very reasonable price. About 2000, I spotted an NIB 1957 vintage version in a local gun store and snapped it up. I paid $350.00 for it, which was at least $100.00 more than a used version would bring. I thought myself a little foolish at the time, but today, I would do it again in a heart beat.

You experience with your pistol giving timing problems due to lack of lubrication and/or dried oil or grease is not uncommon. I have had it several times on handguns that have sat around unused for a couple of decades. When I get a used Smith and Wesson or Colt, the first thing I do is scrub out the old gunk, dirt, hard grease and oil turned to varnish and relube. That keeps me from repeating my frustrations of going to the range and having my new beauty malfunction.

Enjoy and start on your 75,000 wadcutters.

[BruceB]

I might MILDLY disagree with my amigo Chargar (there's a first!) and say that I think the real epitome of the K-frame is the .357 Model 19, which I own, or have owned, in both 4" and 6" versions.

However, for a handloader it's easy to close the performance gap between .38 and .357 to some degree. Back in my more-intrepid (i.e.: daring) days, my K-38 digested many, many "Skeeter loads" rather nicely. These leaned quite heavily on the performance level of then-current .357 ammunition.

A Model 15 would do the same.... but why bother, when the 19 can fill that role so nicely?

A few years ago, just weeks after acquiring my current 4" M19, a friend on this Board offered me an as-new 4" Model 15 for only $325.....like a fool I turned it down, and that decision still haunts me to this day.

This morning I did a bit of a search for S&W .38s on Gunsamerica, and was surprised at how the asking prices have climbed.

[Scharfschuetze]

Nice Model 15! I'm glad you got the timing issue worked out with just a cleaning. When I was a PD firearms training officer, I found all kinds of stuff in the lock works of S&W revolvers: brass brush bristles to dried up grease.

My Model 15 suffered some weight gain along the way, but it still shoots pretty well. :)

Now that my PPC days are long over, I wish it was back in stock "as issued" condition. Still, I console myself with my Model 14.

[Char-Gar]

I might MILDLY disagree with my amigo Chargar (there's a first!) and say that I think the real epitome of the K-frame is the .357 Model 19, which I own, or have owned, in both 4" and 6" versions.

However, for a handloader it's easy to close the performance gap between .38 and .357 to some degree. Back in my more-intrepid (i.e.: daring) days, my K-38 digested many, many "Skeeter loads" rather nicely. These leaned quite heavily on the performance level of then-current .357 ammunition.

A Model 15 would do the same.... but why bother, when the 19 can fill that role so nicely?

A few years ago, just weeks after acquiring my current 4" M19, a friend on this Board offered me an as-new 4" Model 15 for only $325.....like a fool I turned it down, and that decision still haunts me to this day.

This morning I did a bit of a search for S&W .38s on Gunsamerica, and was surprised at how the asking prices have climbed.

Errata: I should have said "Epitome of the 4" Smith and Wesson 38 Special K frame".

I have a 50 years infatuation with the Model 19 as well. My current one is a 1967 4 incher. I don't push it very hard, leaving that for my several N frame 357 Magnums. The Model 19 gets a diet of low end 357 magnums or super hot 38 Special loads, depending on how you look at these things. 10 to 11 grains of 2400 will do it for me over 150 to 160 grain cast bullets.

My favorite load these days is a 150 +- 5 grains full wadcutter over either 10/2400 or 7.5/AA5. My very unscientific minds, judging from recoil and point of impact tell me these are pretty much the same in velocity. Both give sterling accuracy out to 50 yards and hit with considerable authority. They are bad *** 38s on sterioids.

[Petrol & Powder]

Epitome or Highest Expression both work !

[Scharfschuetze]

I kind of like: "Ne plus ultra"

I used a Model 19 for several years as an LEO in the 70s and 80s and virtually wore it every day and virtually wore it out. When returning to the Army, I sold it to a deputy and always regretted it. That being the case, I came across this later production Model 19 and it's the "cat's meow" for accuracy and a smooth double action. It's everything my old service Model 19 wanted to be.

My favorite load for it is the 146 grain 9mm truncated cone boolit sized to .358" loaded over either 231 or Unique for a velocity of right at 1,000 fps over the chronograph.

[Petrol & Powder]

"Ne Plus Ultra"

A Latin phrase meaning no more beyond, used to mean the most perfect example of something
(had to look that one up, my Latin is weak)

Yep, and model 15 or if you want the magnum, a model 19.....fits that description.

[Scharfschuetze]

Bill Jordon of the US Border Patrol once said the Model 19 was "The answer to a law man's dream."

I suspect that he would also agree that it was S&W's "magnum opus." :)

[Char-Gar]

Bill Jordon of the US Border Patrol once said the Model 19 was "The answer to a law man's dream."

I suspect that he would also agree that it was S&W's "magnum opus." :)

Just a couple of thoughts;

1. He is Bill Jordan and not Bill Jordon. Don't worry, I make the same mistake frequently.

2. That picture was taken on the back patio of Jordan's house in Brownsville, Texas. I owned that house at one time.

3. Everybody please note, there is no Weaver stance or "modern technique of the pistol" in the way he shot, but still he wrote the book on gun fighting "No Second Place Winners".

[ballistim]

Just a couple of thoughts;

1. He is Bill Jordan and not Bill Jordon. Don't worry, I make the same mistake frequently.

2. That picture was taken on the back patio of Jordan's house in Brownsville, Texas. I owned that house at one time.

3. Everybody please note, there is no Weaver stance or "modern technique of the pistol" in the way he shot, but still he wrote the book on gun fighting "No Second Place Winners".

I just read that book after years of wanting to, interesting read and opinions from someone who spent a lifetime in his profession using a handgun often with his life on the line. Much of it seems dated today, but it is filled with sound methods & practices without any fluff & it's a breath of fresh air with a lot of the writings by today's "experts".

[Char-Gar]

I just read that book after years of wanting to, interesting read and opinions from someone who spent a lifetime in his profession using a handgun often with his life on the line. Much of it seems dated today, but it is filled with sound methods & practices without any fluff & it's a breath of fresh air with a lot of the writings by today's "experts".

Dated most often means, not popular today. Guns and shooting have fads, styles and trends, just like clothing, music and hair styles.

What is popular today started with Jeff Cooper and others developing some shooting games that tried to mimic gun fighting which paper target shooting did not. The "Modern Technique of the Pistol" was developed to win at these games and continues forward as the "nee plus ultra" (sorry) of combat shooting.

Bill Jordan's way of shooting was developed by being in real gun fights, where life and death were on the line. This "instinctive" or "point shooting" was the way to shave a half second off the time it took to draw and fire, when that half second might mean living or dying. This way of shooting requires far more time, rounds and commitment to become accomplished than the more popular way of today. Jordan would not take home the ribbons and trophies in today's "combat shooting games", but he would go home after a day on the river.

I am not trying to denigrate the shooters of today, just pointing out that "dated" does not mean ineffective or not to be learned and used. If just means, you are not going to win matches if you shoot that way.

[onceabull]

Sometimes that old wheel turns things your way-- The Model 15 that BruceB turned down @ $325 brought me $425 about 6 mo.later locally.(and the gent that bought it still laughs at me every time we meet !!!) Onceabull

[jonp]

The lesson to be learned here is thoroughly clean any weapon that comes into your possession whether old or new prior to shooting it.

You are quite correct. I cleaned the barrel and cylinder of course but it never occured to me to take the sideplate off as I never had a need to do so before. When I opened it up there did not seem to be much gunk, it was bone dry. I cleaned it with Hoppes and put a little Kroil on the pivot points and springs then closed it back up. I let it sit overnight and pulled the trigger as I said and it seemed to work fine so I loaded up 6 pcs of brass with primers only to test and they went bang like they should with the primer strike dead center so I loaded up another 12 145gr WC over 2.7gr Promo to give it another try in the morning. Up to this point it has 10 rounds through it. I'm pretty sure it was NIB as there was no evidence of any use including barrel wear or turn marks on the cylinder. I hated to shoot it but giggled and did it....:bigsmyl2:

BTW: New In Box with the original papers and cleaning kit including screwdriver was about $550

[tazman]

I'm pretty sure it was NIB as there was no evidence of any use including barrel wear or turn marks on the cylinder. I hated to shoot it but giggled and did it....:bigsmyl2:

BTW: New In Box with the original papers and cleaning kit including screwdriver was about $550

I can just see that happening too. I am sitting here giggling thinking about it.:bigsmyl2:
Good deal on the gun! I would love to have one of those to go with the K38 target masterpiece I just bought.

[Petrol & Powder]

jonp - You have a fine gun there and I think it will give you a lifetime of service and then some. And not for nothing - It's about damn time someone shot it! :D
The malfunction you experienced was very likely to be the cylinder bolt hanging up. When you pull the trigger the cylinder bolt is pulled down and disengages from the locking notch on the cylinder. The hand advances the cylinder and the bolt is released shortly after the cylinder starts to turn. The bolt is powered by a small spring and should snap back up so that it can catch the next cylinder notch as it comes around.
A little burr or machining mark might hang the bolt up so that it doesn't return properly but more likely it was just dry from sitting in a box for 20 years. I've also seen old hardened grease cause problems inside of old revolvers. A little cleaning and a little lubrication will permanently fix 99.9% of those issues. Go easy on oil inside of a S&W revolver, a little goes a long way and too much just causes other problems.

That's an OUTSTANDING gun and I'm very envious. Enjoy your new prize!

[jonp]

Update: i now have 36 rounds through this pistol. After removing the side plate and cleaning/oiling it ive had no further problems. I have been using COWW
358145 WC Lee Boolits dropping about 150gr. Ive tried 2.5gr and 2.7 gr Promo both with good luck. The 2.5 gr put 3 into one hole at 10 paces with the other within 3 inches so im going to stay with this loading for a bit and master the trigger.
Next up @ 2.5gr Promo will be 358145 wc but with 20:1 i made up and cast today. They dropped 147-149 with most right on 148gr so ill seperate them out and keep the 148gr to work with.
One thing has become apparent, well 2 things. This pistol does not like R-P brass. Binds it up every time. The rim is just enough wider to do this as its a tight gun. Second is that the Fiocchi primers i tried at first are thicker than others so i switched to Winchest SP and no more problems