Rule of thumb for weight?

[Knarley]

Is there a rule of thumb for how far and how heavey? I have moulds for 405, 485 and 500. When do I use what?
Regards,
Knarley

[WBH]

Are we talking .458 in a 45/70 or 45/90???
The 405gr should do you well out to 200-300 yards. The 500 well out to 1000.

[twotrees]

For hunting the 405 will do quite nicely, on anything that needs sunshine thru it.
If your going to Africa or after Bison then the 500 would be the choice.

My Uberti Hi Wall in 45-70 really likes the Lee 457-500R for target out to a standard Creedmore Buff target at 1000 Meters (1137 yards). Sights are 3"'s up from 100 meter zero and thats about 47 FT (!!!!) of lob at that range.

I love it and the challange that shooting these old Big Boomers give.

Good Shooting,

TwoTrees

[Knarley]

I'm Shooting a Pedersoli NRA "Sharps" in 45-70 and have the vernier tang sight on the back end. Which one of these days I'm gonna have to learn how to read. But "'Bout there 'll do"Has been workin' for me so far.
Regards,
Knarley

[Black Prince]

Well now fellas, ya'll know that a bullet with a higher SD (i.e., one of high weight for its caliber, ) takes more spin to stabilize it, especially the further down range it goes and thus looses both linear and rotational spin velocity. (Stabilization) Since rotational spin velocity is a function of lenear velocity ( and rifling pitch) ya might wanna consider that the more a bullet weighs, the more it's gonna recoil given equal linear velocity, but the higher the bullet SD, the better it'll hold it's kinetic energy and both linear and rotational velocity once it gets going, all other things being equal.

While it's true that you can have accuracy without much linear velocity, you can not have accuracy without sufficient rotational velocity (spin) to cause bullet stablilzation. So the answer to tha question is heee, heee, it all depends on what ya are shooting, and how far away it is, and how much powder ya got in that case, and what the rifling pitch rate is, and if it rained yesterday after the owl hooted three times, and if . . . awwwwww, jiss forgit it dang it! Ya probably gonna miss anyway.

[felix]

Incorrect, BP! The heavier the projectile per given length, the LESS twist is required. ... felix

[montana_charlie]

Felix, he said 'weight per caliber'...not length.
To make a bullet of a given caliber heavier, that pretty much requires more length.
CM

[felix]

True, but he was speaking about SG, not weight specifically. ... felix

[Black Prince]

You rite Montana. Again. Some more. But that ain't no big surprise. I dun went and figered out that this ain't yer furss rodeo and ya knows a little somethin' about shootin' these here rifalguns.

Felix, that dern owl ain't crowed yet, but if it hadda, you'd ah been rite about them short, fat bullets an tha spin required to stabilize'em. I usually jiss spit on'em before I shoot'em and that takes care of that business. Course, I usually miss so . . .

[405]

Well, the longer the bullet the faster the rifling twist rate necessary to stabilize at any given velocity.

Which weight for which range???
An interesting test on the subject dates back ohhh about 129 years. Google "Sandy Hook rifle test 1879"

The best way for your rifle... is to do the testing yourself. Find some accurate loads for the different bullet weights you want to try. Then set up large targets at the longer ranges. Use decent target paper so you can tell how perpendicular the bullet impact is to the target. You can check accuracy, trajectory, required sight picture clarity and of course the stability of the bullet both in the accuracy at the longer ranges and by the shape of the bullet holes.

[felix]

Nah, ol' friend, you can out shoot me any day. My shots have been relegated to this keyboard for the last three years. ... felix

[felix]

405, the boolit holes in the target will be elliptical, with the major axis parallel with the direction of the wind. If no wind, or the distance way too short for the boolit to orient itself against the wind because of the lack of time, then the holes will be exactly round for all practical purposes. The longer the boolit, the more pronounced the ellipse, assuming a constant wind. Of course, no wind and obvious out-of-round the shots indicate more twist is needed. ... felix

[405]

Honestly, don't know about the wind? Arrows do it for sure but gyroscopically stabilized bullets.... dunno.... a little trickier to fully figure :)

But I do know that a perfectly round hole or better yet a group of perfectly round holes indicates good stability at that range. A random orientation of elliptical holes from several shots indicates instability with the bullet yawing around its axis.... at that range. And yes at shorter ranges this can sometimes but not always indicate either too high a spin rate or something imperfect happening right at exit from muzzle where the perfect, zero yaw, flight may begin a little farther down range. Any instability between muzzle and target can show two symptoms 1) basic inaccuracy 2) poorer aerodynamic flight/poorer flight "ballistics".

[Black Prince]

Well Knarley, have we dun answered yer question er whut?

I thank yew is makin' this a lotsa more complicated than it needs to be. If ya goes to shootin' all them different bullet weights, ya gonna hafta remember a lotta different ways to adjust yer sight and ya gonna hafta cast up a buncha different bullets with different moulds and make thangs more difficult fer yerownself. Since I can't remember what I had fer breakfast no more, I jiss shoot one bullet in my rifalguns and that way, I sorta know how it'll shoot if I can remember to put the right ammo in whatever gun I got. Did I mention that a 40-65 Win. will not fit in a . 338 Win. mag? THAT little detail has kept me outta trouble a buncha times.

I use a heavy bullet and it doan matter if it's my .338 Win. Mag. or my 45-70 Shraps. I figer that a 250 grain Nosler outta the .338 will kill a dear, or an elk, or a squirrel fer that matter, and ain't none of'em is gonna know the difference what they wuz shot with any how cause they gonna be graveyard daid. Same goes for the 45-70 shooting a 535 grain bullet, or the 40-65 Winchester shooting a 440 grain bullet. Them big ole heavy bullets has gotta bad habit ah killin' what they hit, an makin' nice round holes in targets, so why mess wiff them little baby bullets inna furss place?

Doan pay no never mind to us old farts talkin' about SD's and BC's an wind an such. We probably got'em confused with some kinda medicine we gotta take every day anyhow, er maybe that wind ain't gonna blow yer bullet cause it is jiss a fart? Sometimes I can't tell. So jiss shoot yer rifalgun and observe how it does at various ranges. Shoot it until you KNOW what it is gonna do at a certain range. Shoot it until it becomes second nature and you don't have to think about it and then you'll be a sho-nuff rifleman.

Until then, eat yer dang Wheaties, and send alla us ole guys that tried to hep give ya advice a bottle of good burboun snake bite medicine. Them dern snakes will be ah commin' out pretty soon around here now that spring is on tha way.

[NickSS]

It depends upon what you are shooting at. If its game any of them will go completely through deer, elk and even buffalo out to 150 yards or so. If its long range targets stick with the heafiest bullet your gun will shoot well. If you want to have fun in your back yard load up some 457 round balls (lubed with LLA) over about 5 gr of red dot and you can plink all day long and never feel any recoil and get great 25 yard accuracy to boot.

[Black Prince]

Actually, a 550 grain 45-70 bullet will go through a buffalo bull standing broadside at 535 yards or so and kill a cow buffalo on the other side, but doan ast me how I know that. Did I mention that them ranch owner fellers charge for them buffalo cows even if ya didn't intend to kill one?

[Boz330]

ROTFLMAO. Had plenty of meat to get you through the winter though, along with the rest of the neighborhood.

Bob

[Knarley]

You pards be a 1/2 bubble off'n plum, that's for sure and for certain. I ain't worried 'bout when the rooster bellerd last, or if'n the goat farted yesterday. BUT the part 'bout all them different boolits and loads made sense, I'm thinkin' I'll pick one out of the middle and run with that one fer a spell. Bullets spin,huh, learn somethin every day[smilie=1:
Thanks,
Knarley

[Black Prince]

Whutcha mean a half bubble off plumb? We can't see that little spirit level thingie on the front sight no more boy. Whatinhell is plumb anyway and do any of us ole farts really care? All yew gotta do is align tha sights and make the trigger break when they is alighned, then follow through with the shot.

Ain't nuthin' to it ya whipper snapper. http://i32.tinypic.com/w7xw28.gif

Plumb my AXX!!!

Yew jiss send that snake bite medicine along now dang it and doan take too long doin' it cause you know that stuff'll go bad if it sits too long.
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[OldBob]

Knarley, yew be kerful listin' to that BP feller, he's been know ta lead folks astray an' drank their whisky. But its a generally accepted fact that he knows which end of the gun the bullet comes outa. :mrgreen:

[Black Prince]

Bob

Does your parole officer know you are out here unsupervised? You know that the provisions of your parole say that you are not supposed to hang around "unsavory" types, especially those who play with guns and drink whiskey.

So whatinhell are you doing here?

http://i31.tinypic.com/10iigjk.jpg
AND I'LL TELL YOU ONE DAM THING, YOU ARE GONNA GET IN TROUBLE HANGIN' AROUND HERE WITH THIS BUNCHA RASCALS!!!

[sundog]

Nice "white man's fire". :mrgreen:

[Black Prince]

That was the "friendship" fire at the Eighth annual meeting of the Church of the Painful Truth last year. Indian build small fire--sit close. White man build big fire--sit way back. But even then it wasn't far enough back because somebody was passing a bottle or three of fire water around that fire and some people managed to fall in the fire. We are going to do it again the last weekend in March this year.

We shoot black powder BPCR's, and cap and ball pistol guns, and cannons and mortars, and bowling ball mortars, and have a blast. Nobody has been killed yet, but several times I woke up and my head hurt so bad that I wished I was dead.

It was all Old Bob's fault.

He was not there to keep the firewater away.

Actually, it was Two Trees fault. He brought the fire water!!! AGAIN.

[Knarley]

Well me beein a yankeee and all, I ain't ever heard of whiskey goin' bad. Course up heer in Minnersota it don't sit in the jug long anyhoo. Sittin' on the ice whist we be fishin' keeps it nice and fresh. Don't you be worryed nun bout them snakes, we use'm fer bait round heer. Sides that a shot of shnapps and a beer is mighty fine too!!:drinks:
Later,
Knarley

[OldBob]

I'll jist amble on back to my cage now.................

[Black Prince]

Wal Knarley, it's gonna be 68 to 70 degrees up here on the mountain tomorrow and 72 down in Atlanter. It's been beautiful weather for the past four days. We're having blue bird days with no clouds, and nice warm weather with little or no wind. I'm headed to the range tomorrow to chronograph some BP loads fer my 40-65. Gonna take my cooler wiff sum Barq's root beer and a peanut butter and jelly sandwich anna Moon Pie fer lunch.

Ice fishing my AXX!!!!

Bob, I shore feel fer you fellers thar in NY state. You hadda scumbag fer govenor that resigned and you STILL gotta scumbag fer govenor, and you got two of the most knuckleheaded, scumbag, liars for senators that ever served in the US Senate.

I'm plumb sorry I picked on you. You got all the problems you need right now.
I'll send you a bottle of good bourbon snake bite medicine. Better yet, I'll take it to the ninth annual and you come and get it. If ya doan, you know the Exhaulted Doo Dah is gonna drank it.

This is the weather we are having down here now, and this is what we are doing.
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http://i25.tinypic.com/10p907n.jpg
Note bowling ball mortar at left fore ground

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[Knarley]

NEW YORK????????? I'm tellin' ya you best git an updated map. MINNERSOTA!!
The Vice queens, the twinkies, the timber pups, land of 10,000 puddles AARRGG! If'n you can't hit nuthin at the end of the range you aint gonna figger this one out.
So, the boolit really spins? wood that be nort and sout or east and west? I gotta think bout this, tequila, that 'll hep. They spin, huh,wooped agin Josey
Knarley Bawb

[twotrees]

I'll make sure Red brings a good B I G Bottle of Aqua Velva, Jest for you. And to make sure you drink some of it, We'll propose a toast that you'll have to drink to.

TwoTrees did it Hummmfp............. My patootie TwoTrees did it.

You and Mark and Dub did it.

P.S. Bring your lime slicin' glove.

Threre might be some blood spilled, but it don't have to be yourn again.

In the Dark

Alone ...with lime juice in your cut.


Hehehehehe

Have fun at the range and give us a report.

TwoTrees (Who Didn't do it) and RedFoxy

[Black Prince]

NEW YORK????????? I'm tellin' ya you best git an updated map. MINNERSOTA!! Wal actually thar Knarley guy, I was talkin' to Old Bob when I said
Bob, I shore feel fer you fellers thar in NY state.

Looks like you mighta confused yerself with Old Bob. Have yew been drinkin' some more? I understand the winter has been ruff up thar whur yew is at and that it's still goin' on. I probably oughta send yew a bottle of good bourbon snake bite medicine and I would but since yew use snakes fer bait, I figer ya doan need nun ah it no.

Now Two Trees dang it, (I'm talkin' to Two Trees now Knarley) me an Dub wuz down to tha worm in the second bottle of tequila when I got stobed through tha hand while attemptin' to cut them dern limes and if he hadna poured that tequila on tha stob wound, I'd ah probably died ah blood poison. Venator wuz jiss playin' like he wuz drinkin' wiff us jiss to git us drunk, tha sumbitcx. So from now on, BEFORE we start in on the tequila, I ALWAYS make sure we got enough limes fer tha night cause after tha furss bottle, I git sorta dangerous wiff a knife.

I'm jiss tryin' out some 40-65 loads at tha range fer tha Church of the Painful Truth annual shootin' match comin' up soon. Ya know Blackwater is gonna come primed and shootin' gud and so is Doo Dah, and Sixgun, and Sweet Pea, so I gotta git my dern act somewhut together fer them guys an gals. I figer you and Redd are probaly gonna make thangs interestin' on tha farin' line too, but if yawl think yew is gonna git me drunk tha night before tha match, FORGIT IT!!!. Yawl soundin' like doin' dirty tricks like Old Bob's former governor and his present junior US Senator, the wife of tha former scumbag in chief.