Sabots

[Muddydogs]

I 'm working on a load for my new Traditions Vortex Strikerfire 50 cal rifle. I'm wanting to shoot this rifle fast so I have been messing around with 120 grain charges of Blackhorn 209. My first round of shooting I had Harvester crushed rib sabots, MMP sabots and HPH/12 sabots on hand to try. I'm shooting a stick on wheel weight 300 gr .452 bullet cast from a Lee mold, bullets are sized to .452. The Harvester sabot loads great but the MMP and HPH sabots load real hard, just about have to stand on the short starter hard and way harder then I would like for hunting purposes. I'm thinking about sizing the .452 bullet down to .450 or 451 as it appears that I can get sizer dies in this size. What do you guys think? Will sizing to .450 a measly .002 smaller make a difference?

In case you want to know, I couldn't get anything close to a group with 120 grains so I dropped down to 110 and things started to come together with the Harvester sabot. Didn't try the other sabots with 110 yet.

[johnson1942]

the most important thing is the twist of your rifle and then you can figure the length of bullet you need for that twist. when you have that they will all go in the center of the black with the right powder charge.

[Rick Hodges]

You can try the mmp HPH/24 Sabots, they are .002 smaller for tight barrels.

[Motor]

I'm not familure with the sabots you are using. Are they made for 45cal. boolits? Its been a while since I used sabots. The ones I had were for 44cal pistol bullets which are actully only .429" IIRC

[Hamish]

Blackhorn's loading data specifically sticks to 70 grain and 100 grain loadings.

I'm shooting the same bullet and sabot combinations at 70 grains of powder and have experimented with 50/50 at .452, which was the devil to get down the barrel. I haven't chronographed, but it was pretty evident that pressure was higher than shooting soft lead.

I cant imagine how high the pressure is with 120 grains,,,,,,,,,,,(hint)

Yes, sizing them down to .451 or .450 will ease loading.

Using 70 grains I am zeroed at 125 yards, with dead on hold to 175. I honestly have to wonder if burning almost 50% more powder each shot is gaining you much, other than recoil and high pressure.

[THBailey]

Just guessing Muddydogs, but I bet the .002 will make a difference. I have one gun that loads easier with .451 than with .452 in the sabot. Also, I worked up a Traditions Buckstalker .50 for hunting last summer and settled on Harvester crush rib with the 300gr Hornady XTP that is .452. The crush ribs loaded much easier, and as you note therefore much quicker, than the Harvester E-Z Load or the MMP and my gun gave the best groups with them. Using Pyrodex RS I started at 85gr volume and went up in 5gr increments to 120gr volume. Mine grouped best with 100gr volume charges.

[Muddydogs]

Blackhorn's loading data specifically sticks to 70 grain and 100 grain loadings.

I'm shooting the same bullet and sabot combinations at 70 grains of powder and have experimented with 50/50 at .452, which was the devil to get down the barrel. I haven't chronographed, but it was pretty evident that pressure was higher than shooting soft lead.

I cant imagine how high the pressure is with 120 grains,,,,,,,,,,,(hint)

Yes, sizing them down to .451 or .450 will ease loading.

Using 70 grains I am zeroed at 125 yards, with dead on hold to 175. I honestly have to wonder if burning almost 50% more powder each shot is gaining you much, other than recoil and high pressure.

My question is why are you spending all the extra money on BH 209 when a $18.00 pound of Pyrodex and a 100 grain load would get you the same velocity as 70 grains of BH? I am messing around with BH because I like the velocity increase over Pyrodex but if I have to load down why bother. So far from my testing a 120 grain charge of BH produces almost 300 fps more velocity then a 120 grain charge of Pyrodex RS. I plan to keep working with my load until I get good groups, once I see where this is I will then make the decision if BH is worth the cost or not.

[Hamish]

Muddy,

I'm shooting BH209 as the load recipe came with the ML, and it shot well as is. The observations on loading hard .452's came from wanting to test on busting deer down in the front shoulders instead of both lungs like normal. That and the fact it cleans up easy are good enough. I don't shoot much of it, so the cost isn't too much of a factor.

i ended up sizing the hard Lees and some MP 452-300's at .450 and was happy with the accuracy.

[OverMax]

.002 smaller sabot would probably be your easiest resolve. Other than that a sabot that carrys a 44 cal bullet is another thought. Personally I've tried MMPs Hornady's & Harvester regular & crush rib and never had much luck with any of them. Now I use prbullet.com for my hunting needs and Thompson/Center Break-o-ways sabot w/ 240 gr. SWC 44 cal cast having a 50/50 mix of CO/WW & soft sheet lead for everything else. As far as powder with the above comb's. I don't have a real need for BH209. Been getting along just fine with Triple 777 loose 3-FFF. But I understand your reasons in wanting to use B/H 209. It certainly is >top shelf powder that offers its user's some very nice benefits.

[Muddydogs]

Just guessing Muddydogs, but I bet the .002 will make a difference. I have one gun that loads easier with .451 than with .452 in the sabot. Also, I worked up a Traditions Buckstalker .50 for hunting last summer and settled on Harvester crush rib with the 300gr Hornady XTP that is .452. The crush ribs loaded much easier, and as you note therefore much quicker, than the Harvester E-Z Load or the MMP and my gun gave the best groups with them. Using Pyrodex RS I started at 85gr volume and went up in 5gr increments to 120gr volume. Mine grouped best with 100gr volume charges.

How are your wound channels with the XTP? I have shot 2 deer with the XTP all within 50 yards and I was just not impressed with the wound channel, just didn't seem like I got the expansion. Last year I switched to the 300 grain cast bullet which performed as I would expect on a cow elk shot at 120 yards. All 3 animals where shot with a .54 knight, 110 grains of RS and the MMP red sabot. When I took the deer I was shooting no 11 caps then switched last season to a 209 breach plug.

[THBailey]

Guess it is all in what you need, or more importantly, what you want. I got the Buckstalker so I could leave it in Wisconsin at my friends farm. We hunt the whitetail each year and I am tired of flying with my other guns. Also, Wisconsin is the only place we hunt with front stuffers where we can scope the muzzleloader. Posting up in raised blinds and tree stands our shots never exceed 200 yards and most are inside 75. Sighted in 3 inches high at 100 yards it is a point blank hold from 20 to 150 yards. The extra 300fps don't mean much here.


We also put in for the Nevada muzzle hunts. Out in the open sage brush mountains we spot and stalk from great distances. That extra 300 fps does mean a lot when you are reaching out 250-300 yards past the last rock you can hide behind. I use a .50 TC Black Mountain Magnum with a reciever sight set-up. I tried the heavier loads with BH 209, Pyrodex, GOEX and 777 but accuracy suffered with them all. If you find a good recipe I hope you will share it and I will surely give it a try!

[THBailey]

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I am guessing at the velocities we are dealing with your lead bullet is the better performer. I went with the XTP for lack of the correct mold. That being said, I have not had any animal go to far after being hit in the boiler room with the XTP. They almost always pass thru but I did recover this one that went stem to stern and stopped just under the skin. The recovered unit weighs 267gr and is pretty fully expanded. I would guess a bullet poked sideways through the ribs and lungs of a deer, and maybe even an elk, doesn't mushroom like this though.

[tomcat388th]

I've been using the 300gn .452 xtp(non mag), hornady black sabot and blackhorn in my optima for a while now. Been pleased with the performance of the bullet so far on our IL whitetails.

[Muddydogs]

THBailey
Is that the XTP Mag or just XTP?

My understanding is the XTP performs best at velocity's up to 1500 fps and the XTP Mag performs best at higher velocity's. I shot the deer with XTP's, muzzle velocity where around 1500 fps. I acquired a box of XTP Mags to try this weekend so I will see how they like to be pushed.

Here in Utah I mostly spot and stock or still hunt in somewhat open country so I would like to try getting this new rifle to shot as flat as possible. I'm not looking for a 300 yard muzzy but I feel the flatter the better even out to 200 yards. As usual my shoot no shoot will come down to my sight picture through the 1x scope as it is the limiting factor.

[Rick Hodges]

I have had great results with 300gr. xtp's. Always entry and exit wounds, even when smashing through shoulders. I start them at 1775 fps with 110gr. of 777.

My hunting partner has had similar results with the 240gr. xtp mag's from his Omega. He uses 2 pellets of 777 (100gr).

[THBailey]

Muddydogs- The exemplar in the photo is an XTP Mag. I am ashamed to admit I am not absolutely sure about the other. I believe it is an XTP, which is my prefered choice, but I did buy some of the Mags when that was all I could find during the shortage. I've seen no difference between them when punching holes in paper at the range, but I speculate at the velocities we have at 100 yards and beyond the XTP might be the better choice.


What part of Utah do you hunt? A group of us went to an area in the northwest corner near Grouse Creek a number of years ago, back when the muzzle season followed modern rifle. We sure saw a lot of deer, but no really big bucks. Pretty obvious the area we were in had been hunted hard, and successfully, by the rifle guys so I figured they got culled out pretty good just before we got there. Sure was a fun trip, though.

[Muddydogs]

My main hunting area is the Spirit Lake area just West of Manila. The Muzzy deer season is now during the end of September before the rifle guys get out there, hunting pressure is very low. The area doesn't have a lot of big bucks but is alright for elk and we usually have a cow tag or two in camp so our main focus is elk and we take what ever deer happens to come along. Our muzzy bull season is after the rifle deer and elk season so bull hunting is tough with the muzzy but I would rather have tough hunting then deal with all the rifle hunters. I have gotten to know the area and hunt it for general season stuff all the while putting in for that good bull or deer tag, maybe this year I will draw something good as my center fire rifles are feeling left out.

[THBailey]

I've been using the 300gn .452 xtp(non mag), hornady black sabot and blackhorn in my optima for a while now. Been pleased with the performance of the bullet so far on our IL whitetails.

tomcat388th- How much blackhorn are you using? How's the accuracy? How easy does that hornady black sabot load?

Thanks,

[Dhammer]

I love the XTP's out of the Savage. I know that bullet is screaming and its still extremely accurate. Also in comparison to who knows how many deer with a 12 gauge slug and a handful with the Savage. Hands down, I love what the xtp's have done at any distance I've used em. But also, not using a black powder substitute so not saying its a fair comparison. My other BP pole just isn't accurate enough where I'd want to hunt with it ever again. Thompson didnt do that one any justice.

[tomcat388th]

tomcat388th- How much blackhorn are you using? How's the accuracy? How easy does that hornady black sabot load?

Thanks,
My gun likes 100 grains volume I do weigh out my charges to be consistent 70 by weight if I remember right. Accuracy off the bench 112 yards I get 1.5 or a touch bigger. The hornady sabot loads fine there's some resistance but your not trying to do a chin up with the ram rod and it doesn't just slip down with finger pressure. I shot this 15 time in a row just to see how it would load with no swabbing the last shot loaded as easy as the first. I was practicing off my bi pod sitting on the ground at the time.My groups opened up a little but the accuracy didn't drop off.
Justin

[ad7kj]

since this looked like the "most recent er-newsest post,"
has anyone tried sabots in a 45-70. just askin......