odd S&W revolver in 38 S&W

[jugulater]

i was doing some pawnshop shopping yesterday and this strange little gun followed me home. im not much of a handgun guy, but as soon as i picked this thing up i had to have it. luckily the pricetag only read $100. i do have a few questions about it that google isnt really helping me answer. it seems like it is a victory model that has been restored, but some of the markings still remain. theres a flaming bomb marking on the butt with a "W.B" stamped next to it and a "P" next to the "W.B". theres what appears to be proof marks on the barrel. any help would be greatly appreciated 129858

[scattershot]

Congrats! I'd buy that for $100 all day long. The flaming bomb is the US ordnance mark, and the letters are more than likely an inspector's initials.

[leebuilder]

Well it is a S&W. They made piles upon piles of these i think since it is 38S&W cal it can fire 380-200.
I was on the numrich gun parts site, a few pics and tech info that might help. I have seen pics of these pistols on JoeSalters website, try Downeast too.
Hope this helps a bit. I am sure someone with more info will chime in soon.
Have fun shooting it.

[georgerkahn]

It sure looks like a Model 11 World War II lend-lease to the UK S&W revolver in .38/200 -- or, our .38 Smith & Wesson -- caliber to me... I might be wrong, though. Hard to be 100% correct just from this photo. It could be the "Victory" model -- check if the letter "V" is part of serial number. On mine, if you very carefully look/squint on the top, inscribed is, "U S Government Property". You, indeed, got quite the buy if it is one of these. They're "made" for cast boolits, and sure are both an inexpensive and fun revolver to shoot. I had to give a Lewis Lead Remover a real work-out when I acquired mine, but barrel leading has not been an issue for me. I use an old Ideal 360271 180 grain mould.
BEST!
georgerkahn

[Scharfschuetze]

In the early 90s, many of these ex Commonwealth "Victory Models" were imported. I believe that most of the ones I saw at the time were brought in from Australia, or so I was told by the vendors. The finish on them was the same finish as on the US version of the "Victory Model." In addition to the 38/200 calibre, I believe that they were all 5" barrels too. The version for US Forces generally had a 4" barrel.

Hind sight is 20/20 as they say and I sure wish I would have bought one back then. Lucky you to find one going for the price they went for over 20 years ago!

[9.3X62AL]

I get tired of this site's software EATING posts I try to make. Annoys the hell out of me.

2nd attempt......be cognizant that some of these revolvers that came back after the war were converted to 38 Special from their initial manufacture as 38 S&Ws. A check of chamber step depth can confirm both caliber and any conversion status.

[jugulater]

it will NOT chamber a 38 special, its still in original caliber. the serial number does NOT have a prefix. some of the marking were probably scrubbed off when it was reblued. Thanks for all the help so far. seems like ive got an interesting peice of history here.

[9.3X62AL]

Ah, good. I enjoy mine immensely. One of the fun parts is loading a 200 grain bullet .810" long into a case .775" long with 3.0 grains of Unique underneath it and launching them at 700 FPS at target iron. Thumps the iron right smartly, it does.

[Bigslug]

"WB" is for Waldemar Broberg, who was head ordnance inspector of that region for Uncle Sam from about mid '41 to mid '42. The "P" was the final inspection proofmark. 1911 history is more my thing, but on those, these stamps were applied AFTER the gun was finished, assembled, and function-checked. The dead giveaway for a re-finished gun is that the raised edges around these marks and the lighter-colored burnishing inside them is gone.

In .38 S&W, it's likely a Lend-Lease gun for the Brits - almost certainly has a V in front of the serial number. Probably has S&W's usual good attention to detail internally, and looks like it was finished with a 60-grit belt sander externally. That "V" on Smiths and the "WAR FINISH" stamp on British Webleys was their way of saying "Look, we don't usually make stuff this ugly, but there's a war on and we're in kind of a hurry. . ."

[georgerkahn]

From one .38/200 owner to another, I have a box of brand new, primed .38 S&W brass you may be able to get from me if you cannot find any brass or cartridges locally -- assuming you do not have any at present, and DO wish to shoot it. PM me -- they won't be "cheap", but not a nickel more than I paid for them.
geo

[wwmartin]

Star line lists 38 S&W as available.
Question, are those grips real Ivory.

Bill

[jugulater]

the grips are some kind of plastic. im going to get a set of original grips for it. ive got a bunch of brass already. my grandfather used to have a S&W lemon squeezer and he shot the **** out of it. needless to say i got a bunch of brass, some of it is balloon head and those i wont be using

[Ballistics in Scotland]

it will NOT chamber a 38 special, its still in original caliber. the serial number does NOT have a prefix. some of the marking were probably scrubbed off when it was reblued. Thanks for all the help so far. seems like ive got an interesting peice of history here.

That is good news about not being a conversion. The .38S&W part of the new chamber would be oversized, and probably so would the bore. It beats me why, when Smith and Wesson had about as good a cartridge as you could desire for a medium-sized non-magnumised revolver, they went over to one with more airspace inside.

These revolvers generally have the large groove dimensions described. But it was a big order, fulfilled in a hurry, so you shouldn't lay out money on a mould without checking whether a barrel from the .357 stockpile has crept in. Nor should you give up on making .357 bullets work, if they are soft enough to bump up to fill the throat and grooves on firing.

The British believed that the lead .38-200 load would come close enough to the stopping power of the .455 Webley to be justify a revolver the non-speciaiist and non-enthusiast would find easier to shoot well. This was true, but they went over to a hard-jacketed 200gr round-nose to comply with the Geneva Convention, which probably reduced the effect quite considerably. I have only ever recovered these from sandy soil, slightly oval in shape, so I'm not sure of the diameter, but as this bullet was never used in anything but the Webley, Enfield and S&W, they probably got it right.

It seems like quite unnecessary punctiliousness, since a cast revolver bullet expands very little, and the .303 MkVII was very prone to partial breakup. But the great bugaboo of the time was poison gas coming back, and they didn't want to give any excuses to a hypothetical enemy who might hypothetically be Germany.

Changing the grips is a good idea. The originals would have been wooden, probably without checkering or medallion, but a pair which fills the space behind the trigger guard would probably be better for shooting.

[bouncer50]

Leave it the way it is but change the grips. 38 S&W is a good round with a 200 grain bullet should shoot to the point of aim. The 38 specical was rechamber attempt to sell on the American market. Like the Welbey to 45 acp another American market.

[9.3X62AL]

It beats me why, when Smith and Wesson had about as good a cartridge as you could desire for a medium-sized non-magnumised revolver, they went over to one with more airspace inside.

To accomodate more black powder than their 38 S&W could hold, in order to boost ballistics. The 38 Special's length corresponded to its charge weight's space requirement. This weight has been given as ranging from 18 to 21 grains. Though it wasn't a black powder cartridge for very long--and made the transition to smokeless powder very seamlessly--the 38 Special's original fuel was The Holy Black.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

It was indeed loaded with black powder, but only for a very brief period. I have variously seen 1898 and 1902 quoted as its date of introduction, by which time it was known that smokeless, used in virtually all other firearms, was the coming thing for revolvers. Indeed I believe the .38 Long Colt which Smith and Wesson unsuccessfully intended it to replace with the US military, had already been changed to smokeless in military service.

The black powder loads for the .38 Special didn't linger on as they did for the .45 Long Colt. Indeed in the 1930s the black powder load was the most powerful .45 Long Colt commercial loading.

[jugulater]

So far my experimentation with this little gun has left me very satisfied. ive been shooting up some 160 grain SWCs i had left over from reloading for a .38 special revolver. ive sluged my bore and it appears to be ~.361 so i know these .358 diameter bullets wont work the best, but it works.

[bob208]

I have had dealings with 3 of the victory models all three had 358-359 bores. one belonged to a high school teacher he showed me how to slug a bore. the other to a deputy sheriff and the third I have right now.

[9.3X62AL]

The throats in my M&P example span .363", and I size my castings at that spec. I haven't slugged its barrel, but it shoots the NEI #169A castings sized at .363" very accurately--no spitting or lead deposits on/around forcing cone. IOW, it works.

[FergusonTO35]

I think it would be neat to come up with a load for the .38 Special snub nose that duplicates the .38-200 out of the longer barrel. Wasn't there also a 178 grain military load? Thats one of the chief attributes of these cartridges, you can use a much longer and heavier bullet than in an auto.

[Scharfschuetze]

I think it would be neat to come up with a load for the .38 Special snub nose that duplicates the .38-200 out of the longer barrel. Wasn't there also a 178 grain military load? Thats one of the chief attributes of these cartridges, you can use a much longer and heavier bullet than in an auto.

There was a Police Special load for the 38 Special back in the 50s and 60s that had a 200 grain RN lead boolit. Some of the old salts on my PD thought it was a good snub nose load. I was never quite sure of that.

The US Military had the M41 load that used a FMJ RN bullet that was about 145 or 148 grains as I recall. There was also a tracer version of it for signalling purposes. I used to shoot them during night quals on the police range and that always brought more than a few guys over to my firing point to see what was going on.

[jugulater]

ive got another question concerning my new toy. i want to get a bullet mould for it and its for sure going to be a NOE bullet mould. Im not sure if i want to get a mould for 150grn SWCs or for the 200grn MkI style bullet. im really on the fence about it. all advice is greatly appreciated

[Scharfschuetze]

I would imagine that the sights are regulated for the issue 38/200 ball load. I guess I'd try and match that for the best chance at finding a load to shoot to the sights. Might not be necessary though, fixed sight guns have a mind of their own to some extent when it comes to their zero.

My US Victory model shoots my SAECO 145 grain M41 ball duplicate boolit right to the point of aim at 25 yards so I guess I was lucky. We'll look forward to reading your results with whatever you decide on.

[9.3X62AL]

Jugulator--I'm running a 200 grain NEI #169A atop 3.0 grains of Unique or 3.3 grains of Herco in my M&P like yours. These clock around 675-700 FPS, and hit where the sights are looking at 25 yards.

[jugulater]

Sounds like the 200 grain bullet should be perfect. i have a few cans of unique still. i should be able to do alot of shooting with this caliber. thanks for all the help, im sure ill have more questions next time i find something cool/unusual.