When did Smith and Wesson model 14 and 15 revolvers get so hard to find?

[tazman]

I have an interest at the moment for a Smith and Wesson in 38 special. My thought was to find a model 14 with a 6 inch barrel or a 15 with a 4 inch barrel(did they make a 15 with a 6?).
I just called every gun store within 60 miles of my house and could find only one.
What gives with that?
A few years ago you couldn't go into a gun store without tripping over several of them.

[Thumbcocker]

My guess is that they are like Ruger #3"s them that has em keeps em.

[9.3X62AL]

Not sure what S&W is offering in their "Classic" line of revolver re-makes currently. I seem to remember the 14 and either the 15 or 67 being a part of that series. These feature the much-cussed "glory hole" safety and internal/construction re-works that put many purists off. The given MSRP for these re-makes differs little from pricing on used examples I've seen for the past couple years--and there weren't a whole lot of those. I am usually on the prowl for good-quality 38 Specials, and they can be scarce locally. Work Gunbroker or GunsAmerica in concert with your local FFL to increase your range of choices. They are kind of a "where you find them" item these days, and due to this limited number and steady demand they don't last long on a dealer shelf.

FWIW, both the 14 and 15 were "Masterpiece" model revolvers in 38 Special caliber. The 14 was the former "Target Masterpiece", and came with 6" or 8-3/8" barrels. The 15 was the "Combat Masterpiece" model, and came with 2" or 4" barrels. 22 LR variants Models 17 and 18 followed this same design scheme and barrel selections. A very few Model 16/32 S&W Long were made, I have only seen Target variants and all were 6" barrels. 8-3/8" barrels were cataloged, and a very few 4" models were said to have escaped Springfield. Only 1600 or so of these were ever made in all barrel lengths. The Model 48 was made in 4", 6", and 8-3/8" barrel lengths for the 22 Winchester Rimfire Magnum cartridge, to wind up the Masterpiece revolver line. They were marketed as refined versions of their K-frame service sidearms for field use and target competition, but in NRA 2700-series work these models and Colt's counterparts got replaced by self-loading systems as time went on after WWII.

[TCFAN]

I bought this one new in the late 1990's. Simply the best revolver I have ever shot. I like it very much. Model 14-6..Terry

http://i755.photobucket.com/albums/xx200/TCintheOzarks/Cast%20Boolits/DSCN8242.jpg (http://s755.photobucket.com/user/TCintheOzarks/media/Cast%20Boolits/DSCN8242.jpg.html)

[9.3X62AL]

Those late-series 14s can be real tackdrivers. I have a Model 617 like your 14-6 with underlugged barrel, it shoots WONDERFULLY. I would part with some serious Greenspans for a like-new example like yours--they are the scarcest of the Model 14 lineage.

[tazman]

Thanks for the information and history lesson, guy. Quite a bit of information there I didn't know and very useful.
I guess I have to go see if that one I found is still there.

[dubber123]

Quite a few on Gunbroker, and I imagine many other auction sites. The last one I got was a pre model 14 5 screw made in 1952 for less that $400. They made a lot of them, keep looking.

[sw282]

l have a 15-2 2inch snubby.. Theres no barrel taper like a 4'' Model15. My very first revolver was a Model 14 purchased in the late 70s.. l can shoot it better because of the longer barrel..lf they were both bolted in a vise l don't think the 14 would shoot any tighter groups..

[sw282]

The Model 19 .357 Combat Magnum is just a stretched frame/cylinder version of the 14/15. l think its one of the most potent revolvers Smith&Wesson ever built. The frame and cylinder are specially heat treated too. l have never been able to shoot any 14 or 15 more accurately than a used Model 19 4'' l bought years ago..Model 19s got a bad rap from barrel erosion when fed a steady diet of light 357 mag loads.. Abuse they were never designed for. They live forever on 38s for practice and 357s for serious business

[9.3X62AL]

The Model 19 would likely live forever on SAAMI-spec 357 loads using 158 grain bullets. Maybe not the Doug Wesson 46K PSI monsters shipping 158 grainers at 1450 FPS, but run the 158s at 1235-1250 FPS like our old service rounds performed, and they will last longer than their owners. AT LEAST.

My former agency went to the FBI-touted Federal 357B loading about 3 years ago. That is the much-ballyhooed 125 grain load running 1440 FPS; it averages about 1425 out of my 686 x 4". It shows slightly less recoil and significantly less accuracy than the 158 grain loads did; I prefer the 158 grainers, but this isn't a question I get consulted on.......just advised. So, when in Rome I do as the Romans do. But if afield, my 357s carry Lyman #358156 ahead of 14.0 grains of 2400 for about 1275 FPS. (13.5 grains duplicated our old carry load). Truth to tell for felon repellant......there are no poor loads in 357 Magnum for the purpose. That 357B can mess up K-frames, so I house mine in the 686 and call it good. The Shop approved Ruger SP-101s, so that might be an option as well. We'll see.

[rintinglen]

I've a 4 inch M-66 and a 14-6, but I share the frustration with the OP on finding a good clean M-15. What irks me is that I bought a couple of them when the Sheriff's hereabouts went over to semi-autos but was too much of a bone head to keep one. The M-15 is just about the perfect packing pistol for casual hikes. Maybe not where the big bears roam, but for bunny busting, there are darned few things to equal a 38 wadcutter.

[jonp]

Not sure what S&W is offering in their "Classic" line of revolver re-makes currently. I seem to remember the 14 and either the 15 or 67 being a part of that series. These feature the much-cussed "glory hole" safety and internal/construction re-works that put many purists off. The given MSRP for these re-makes differs little from pricing on used examples I've seen for the past couple years--and there weren't a whole lot of those. I am usually on the prowl for good-quality 38 Specials, and they can be scarce locally. Work Gunbroker or GunsAmerica in concert with your local FFL to increase your range of choices. They are kind of a "where you find them" item these days, and due to this limited number and steady demand they don't last long on a dealer shelf.

FWIW, both the 14 and 15 were "Masterpiece" model revolvers in 38 Special caliber. The 14 was the former "Target Masterpiece", and came with 6" or 8-3/8" barrels. The 15 was the "Combat Masterpiece" model, and came with 2" or 4" barrels. 22 LR variants Models 17 and 18 followed this same design scheme and barrel selections. A very few Model 16/32 S&W Long were made, I have only seen Target variants and all were 6" barrels. 8-3/8" barrels were cataloged, and a very few 4" models were said to have escaped Springfield. Only 1600 or so of these were ever made in all barrel lengths. The Model 48 was made in 4", 6", and 8-3/8" barrel lengths for the 22 Winchester Rimfire Magnum cartridge, to wind up the Masterpiece revolver line. They were marketed as refined versions of their K-frame service sidearms for field use and target competition, but in NRA 2700-series work these models and Colt's counterparts got replaced by self-loading systems as time went on after WWII.

Some Model 15's had a 6in barrel but were not common and not offered for very long. I think that if someone was looking for the 6in they either got the 14 (target masterpiece) or stepped up to the Model 19

[Bigslug]

I have an interest at the moment for a Smith and Wesson in 38 special. . .

I just called every gun store within 60 miles of my house and could find only one. What gives with that?

A few years ago you couldn't go into a gun store without tripping over several of them.

The answer is quite simple - the universe hates us and likes to watch us suffer - usually while mocking us.

5.5" Redhawks were all over the place until about two weeks before I decided that I wanted one, then WHOOSH! Nowhere to be found. Nothing to be had for less than a mint for about a year, I finally got one, and then a couple months later, Ruger starts making them again and I see one at Bass Pro Shops.

It's just your turn to suffer. I feel your pain.

[Petrol & Powder]

For the OP, I'll second the advice that Gunbroker and the other on-line sites are your best bet. You're looking for a higher quality, older model gun that is not readily available in most gun stores. There will be exceptions but for the most part, people that have good quality model 14's & 15's - and know what they are; don't sell/trade them off frequently. In your search for one of those models you will probably need to cast a bigger net or be willing to look locally for a long time.
Now, I'm sure someone will chime in and say, " I found a perfect (fill in the blank) at my local gun store". I'm sure it happens occasionally but that doesn't mean it will happen to you tomorrow.
If you use an on-line site don't forget the added costs of shipping and transfer fees when bidding. Having a FFL lined up first is a big help.
Another tactic that I've used successfully is to confine your search to guns available in your state and do a face to face [FTF] purchase. That gives you a bigger search area for a potential gun, allows you to examine the gun in person and saves the shipping & transfer fees (at the cost of some time and fuel).
I'll defer to Al's knowledge but it has always been my belief that a model 15 is basically a model 14 with a 4" or 2" barrel. I believe that LAPD armorers actually shortened some model 14's to 4" and did good work, so there may be some factory looking 4" model 14's out there as well.

[ballistim]

deleted

[Petrol & Powder]

The answer is quite simple - the universe hates us and likes to watch us suffer - usually while mocking us.

5.5" Redhawks were all over the place until about two weeks before I decided that I wanted one, then WHOOSH! Nowhere to be found. Nothing to be had for less than a mint for about a year, I finally got one, and then a couple months later, Ruger starts making them again and I see one at Bass Pro Shops.

It's just your turn to suffer. I feel your pain.

I've provided entertainment to the universe as well. ! ;)

[9.3X62AL]

The LAPD armorers could do some FANTASTIC work. I fired a Beretta 92 that was worked over by that group, and that thing was INCREDIBLE. It shot factory W-W 147 JHPs like a rifle.

The Model 15 was LAPD's issue sideiron for a lot of years. Most of them had their single-action firing ability disabled as a matter of agency policy. I have yet to see a Model 14 with a 4" barrel.......but Springfield--Hartford--and Southport have all disgorged more than a few anomalies in their time. General rules are exactly that.....general in nature. As far as any gunmaker's lineup goes, never say "never", and never say "always". Claiming an absolute THOU SHALT is asking for embarrassment.

[fecmech]

It is really interesting to see the resurgence of .38 spl. revolvers. It wasn't that long ago that they were second class citizens to .357 capable revolvers. Shooters wanted the ability to shoot .357 mags in their guns and not be restricted to the lowly .38 spl. Now they complain about getting the carbon out of their .357 chambers because all they shoot is .38 spls! There is simply no justice in this world. I am fortunate in that I own both a 14 and 15 and they are my favorite revolvers, accurate and pleasant to shoot. I certainly won't be selling mine.

[Petrol & Powder]

fecmech- Bravo!
Countless .357 magnums have been sold so that the owner could shoot .357 magnums if he/she wanted. The same holds true for the 44 special/magnum guns. The magnums have their place and are very useful tools but the availability of the magnums somehow translated into the specials being inferior in the eyes of the consumers.
I have several revolvers that are chambered in 38 special and not .357 magnum, including some GP100s and a few S&W's. I cannot count the number of times I've had someone say, "Why would you want that? You can't shoot magnums in it". When I ask them if they always shoot magnums in their magnum revolvers they inevitably respond, "No but I can if I want to".
If I need to poke holes in something that's trying to hurt me I'll gladly use a magnum cartridge if it's available. If the lowly 38 special is all I have, I think I can put it to good use. I spend far more time poking holes in paper and ringing steel plates than fending off felons.
I have .357 magnum revolvers but the 38 Special guns are by far my favorites.

[9.3X62AL]

No Model 14 nor Model 15 currently in the safe, but they have resided here in the past. In 38 Special, I get by with a very nice Colt Officer's Model Target x 6" and a Model 10 x 5" from another member here that has without doubt the NICEST double-action trigger stroke I have ever felt on a service-grade revolver. I expect at some future time to renew my acquaintances with the 14 and 15, and perhaps a nice Colt or 2 in 38 Special.

The 38 Special seems to be the Rodney Dangerfield of handgun calibers--'it don't get no respect'--and it really deserves much better treatment. The advent of the double-stack mags in 9mm and later 40 S&W did the caliber no favors, and to some extent rendered the system obsolescent. Despite the proliferation of these high-capacity bottom-feeders, the usual dynamic of most citizen and many police handgun fights involve 2 rounds within 2 yards within 2 seconds. This poses no handicap to the 5- or 6-shot wheelgun. The 38 Special is enough cartridge to put a goblin's frame on the pavement when needed, but not so heavy in recoil that most people can't hit well with it. That might be the caliber's stock-in-trade.....that it is wonderfully accurate and that most users can apply that accuracy easily.

[Uncle R.]

I haven't been watching the market closely but I'm not surprised to read that the old K-Frame .38s are climbing in price. Yeah, they made a lot of 'em but they're not making any more - at least not like they used to make them - and they really are a fine example of the gunmaker's art.

I have a 14 and a 15, both bought used years ago. Both are pinned and recessed, both are extremely accurate, both have sweet triggers. I paid a hundred and a half for the 15, and two hundred for the 14. I wouldn't care to sell either today - not for five times what I paid.

I like K frame .357s just as much. I'm convinced Al is exactly right - shoot 158s in them and they'll last longer than you will. There are 158 gr loads that work well for almost any purpose and avoiding the 125s is no great handicap. I have a 6 inch 19 and it's very nice, and a 4 inch 65 that contends with the 1911s as my favorite "under a heavy coat in the winter" carry gun. Next on the K-frame wish list is a 66-1. That would be pretty much the holy grail of K-frame .357s to me. Unfortunately, everyone else thinks the same way and they're not cheap any more. Oh well - I keep hoping to run across one.

Membership in the K-frame club might be getting more expensive, but it's still not to late to enroll.
:bigsmyl2:

Uncle R.

[MarkP]

I recall seeing some M-15 security turn-ins that appeared to be in decent shape on gunbroker a few weeks ago. $339 IIRC.


Do not forget about the SS version of the M15 the M67, these can be found as police turn in's at reasonable prices (sometimes).

[shtur]

I got back into bullseye pistol shooting a few years ago, and learned a distinguished revolver badge was introduced between the time I initaly quite shooting bullseye and when I returned to the sport. I bought a S&W model 14 to shoot in the distinguished revolver matches. I think that is where many are being used today.

[MtGun44]

Folks collect them and do not turn them loose. I have a 6" target bbl Model 15, which
I think is pretty odd (maybe not). Very accurate.

Bill

[tazman]

Folks collect them and do not turn them loose. I have a 6" target bbl Model 15, which
I think is pretty odd (maybe not). Very accurate.

Bill

That's the one I would like to find. Somehow, I doubt I will. However, I will keep looking. Something may turn up.

[9.3X62AL]

I'm more likely to move on a 14 than a 15; I would opt for fixed sights on a 4" 38 Special, though that preference isn't etched into marble. One thing I sure as h--- won't be doing is paying MSRP of $767 for a glory-hole Model 10 x 4". Fo-git dat.

[Shooter6br]

Lucky I found a 25-2 (45 ACP)6 in ...... a 657(6in)....... and a trade in Mod 10 with 4in HB. Love then all

[BruceB]

Watching guns and prices at my wonderful dealer's store here in Reno is interesting.

Two recent S&W examples that really tempted me:

-a 1949-manufacture 6" K-38, excellent condition (like: near-new), for $400 ASKING price, and

- a NEW-in-box four-inch Model 15 of 1975 production for (gulp) $700, again, asking price.

If'n I didn't already have a like-new 1973 Model 19-3, I could have/would have been the new owner of either (or BOTH) of these.

An earlier K-38 of mine survived several thousand "Skeeter loads" without apparent harm; the gun was 'full target' as regards the hammer, trigger and grips....generally a gorgeous piece. A pal offered me too much money for it , and away it went.

Blue-steel Smiths are a major weakness of mine..... I was even sorely tempted by a NIB Model 35, the six-inch .22 J-frame with adjustable sights (the ".22-32 Target")... it was only a matter of the mere $1100 asking price at a gunshow. It was HARD to lay that one back in its box and walk away!

Fortunately,shortly thereafter a certain amigo of mine GAVE me a Beakart-model J-frame .22-32 from about the 1920s. This is the forerunner-model to the M35 mentioned above. It needs standard-velocity ammo ONLY, but what a sweet, sweet revolver it is. Standard-speed Long Rifles are not all that hard to find, even now, and I don't need thousands of rounds for this one anyway. There are several hundred rounds here on the shelf, and I keep my eye open for more.

Yes, blue-steel and S&W dates from say, 1995 and earlier, are a major weakness of mine. I lost my '90s-built M27-6 in my recent divorce and will likely replace it if the chance comes along. Love them blue N-frames, too!

Paying collector prices for guns which I intend to USE can be a dicey question, but the guns are so nice that I still see them as artifacts that have some practicality, even if they ARE beautiful and valuable.

[sw282]

Models 14 and 15 never had recessed cylinders.. ln pinned barrels only the magnums had recessed cylinders... 0f course all 22s have recessed cylinders

[MT Gianni]

I watched 4-5 model 15 revolvers for a few weeks last Oct and bought a good one on gunbroker for $250. I last saw one in a gunshow in 2011 locally.

[Jeff82]

I picked up an S&W Model 14-6 "Classic" last year, and really like it. However, I did have to pay a gunsmith to re-work the action to make it more like the silky smooth feel of yesterday's S&Ws. I have to say that, much as I now love my Models 14 and 36, I believe the current production S&Ws lack something in quality and quality control.

--Jeff

[tazman]

I found a 15-3 today and went to look at it. On the phone, the owner told me it was in good condition.
When I saw it, the last half inch of the bluing on the barrel at the muzzle was gone and the metal was pitted. The inside of the barrel was ok.
When I looked into the cylinders there was rust in every chamber to the point where I believe the chambers were pitted.
I left it there. I am not going to buy some one else's problems if I can avoid it.

[Petrol & Powder]

Good call Tazman!
Take your time, you Will find a good gun and be happier in the end.

[DeadWoodDan]

tazman,
Not sure how close you are to Streator IL, but South Post Guns has a 6" K38 under the glass I looked at today. If you want more info. let me know what I can do to help or I can get you there number / email.
DWD

[tazman]

tazman,
Not sure how close you are to Streator IL, but South Post Guns has a 6" K38 under the glass I looked at today. If you want more info. let me know what I can do to help or I can get you there number / email.
DWD

Thanks for the offer, but I am about 145 miles from there. That's too far to have to make the trip twice.

[DeadWoodDan]

this thread has really gotten me thinking, as I have always wanted to add another revolver to my lonely 3screw BH in .357. I'm going to need an education on as I picked up that K38 last night and now have a desire that most likely will not go away. I have always thought I would get the GP100 or even a M52 ( too expensive for me ) next but seems like I have a huge pile of .38brass and a variety of molds ( no wad cutter...yet)
What are the differences in the model 14? I see 14-4, 14-6, K38 etc.
Any particular thing I should be looking/asking for while shopping? Someone mentioned pinned receiver etc.
Would like to know why you can't shoot the light loads mentioned earlier also.

taz didn't mean to hijack your thread either, sorry buddy

thanks
DWD

[A pause for the COZ]

Here is my recent Gunbroker grab. Model 14-3 its a keeper for sure.

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d66/Kelly2215/100_9675_zps20ab8140.jpg

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d66/Kelly2215/100_9672_zpsdbc8ad9b.jpg

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d66/Kelly2215/100_9670_zpsa1d7d9b3.jpg

[Petrol & Powder]

DWD, The basic Model 14 was a blued, square butt, K-frame, chambered in 38 Special with adjustable sights. The K-38 designation was the "target" model with a few extra features such as a trigger stop installed in the frame to limit over travel in single action, a better front sight blade and generally were fitted with target hammers. Most of the model 14's I've seen have 6" barrels but that's not an absolute rule. Most of the model 14's are the target configuration however the trigger stop was removed by some police departments because if it loosened it could tie up the action.
I believe the dash 6 Model 14 had a full lugged barrel and someone posted a picture of one of those on this thread.
Here's a good link that lists S&W model changes.

http://www.handloads.com/misc/Smith.Model.Changes.asp

[DeadWoodDan]

When looking at the revolver in my local shop, I could not verify the model #, usually its right there when you open up the cyl. stamped inside. I will have to get some pics of it, would like to confirm exactly what it is. His price seems high @ 650 comparing to those on GB

[Ragnarok]

They are out there...in the last couple years I have bought a decent Mod 15-3 for $200(nickel, not my favorite gun-finish)..and a somewhat rougher but good Mod 14(think it's a -4) for $250

You just have to dig the used handguns in the stores or online. Although I bought both of the above revolvers locally in face to face deals

"I have this S&W.38 revolver I never shoot...gimme $200 for it?"...(me)"Let's see it"..this how I got a nickel Mod 15...

The Mod 14 came from a young police officer who just moved to town..somehow I ended-up at Thanksgiving dinner with the new town cop..that conversation went: "I have a mod 14 6" .38 special I need to sell"..(me).."how much"...(young officer) " $275..I'll go get it after desert so you can see it"..anyhow, between my wife and I we could only come-up with $250 cash on Thanksgiving day and he was satisfied with that..and didn't care to wait for Black Friday so I could get him another 25 bucks...(I think he was planning some black Friday shopping and an early start)..


..there are lots of S&W model 14 'Masterpiece' and mod 15 'Combat-Masterpiece' revolvers out there...just have to look and listen...

[Char-Gar]

I have an interest at the moment for a Smith and Wesson in 38 special. My thought was to find a model 14 with a 6 inch barrel or a 15 with a 4 inch barrel(did they make a 15 with a 6?).
I just called every gun store within 60 miles of my house and could find only one.
What gives with that?
A few years ago you couldn't go into a gun store without tripping over several of them.

I have a small stash of DA Smith and Wessons, at least enough to last my lifetime, so I don't really cruise the gun shops and gun shows like I once did looking for them. I will just make a few general observations about where they went.

1. Very few new shooters even consider a DA revolver, opting for the autopistol. This is because this is what the various police departments, militaries, TV good guys and bad guys use. Therefore firearms maker and dealers sell what people buy.

2. S & W charges idiotic prices for their new DA sixguns, forcing those interested into the used market and these are drying up pretty fast. Used S & W DA sixguns are the biggest competitor S & W has for their new over priced stuff. Folks that have these fine revolvers are hanging on to them. Over the past 50 years I have owned a couple of hundred of these revolvers, buying, selling and trading them at will. But these days, I can't be pried loose from those I have, because replacing them will be costly and time consuming. If you got em, hang on to em!

Did anybody say Model 14, 15 and 19? I thought you did. In that order;

[9.3X62AL]

I think Char-Gar described the "market situation" for target-capable S&W 38 Special revolvers pretty succinctly. Think of them like wheelweights--no longer ubiquitous nor are they cheap, but they are still around--they just require hunting for these days.

I had a good time yesterday with my Model 10 x 5" and some Starline brass stuffed with #358429 and 4.0 grains of WW-231. Our shooting site was in the San Diego County backcountry foothills about 2 miles north of the Mexican border. USBP aircraft and vehicles passed by through the day, keeping prospective New Americans away from the Land of the Free Cellphones and Medical Care. Nice area, really--early spring grass popping out, oak-dotted and buckbrush in some density. Just haul aspirations by nightfall. A good day.

[contender1]

There is a model 15 for sale on the Ruger Forum.

[contender1]

Somebody from here may have seen my post, as it got an "I'll take it" post this morning.

[DeadWoodDan]

Thank you sir :oops: guilty as charged. Haven't closed on the deal yet, but waiting on seller.
DWD

[tazman]

I found a dealer who has at least 5 of them in stock about 40 miles from here. I am going there to check it out today.

[DeadWoodDan]

taz,

Let us know what you find please. see if dealer will let you take a couple pics also.

[Petrol & Powder]

GOOD LUCK tazman

[Char-Gar]

I found a dealer who has at least 5 of them in stock about 40 miles from here. I am going there to check it out today.

If you find one in good condition at anything near fair market value, grab it!

[9.3X62AL]

Best of luck, Taz. Don't turn up your nose at holster-wear like that found on police-issue sidearms. As often as not, such a revolver was carried much and shot little through its service life. If chambers are good--bore in good shape--and mechanics in good order, let the aesthetics go and scoop that critter.

Of course, a LNIB example at the right price is never a bad plan, either. :)

[Char-Gar]

BTW..Some years back Finn Aagard wrote an article about his surplus Model 15 in the American Rifleman. He gave a bunch of loads for it and gave it glowing praise.

[DeadWoodDan]

The Model 19 .357 Combat Magnum is just a stretched frame/cylinder version of the 14/15. l think its one of the most potent revolvers Smith&Wesson ever built. The frame and cylinder are specially heat treated too. l have never been able to shoot any 14 or 15 more accurately than a used Model 19 4'' l bought years ago..Model 19s got a bad rap from barrel erosion when fed a steady diet of light 357 mag loads.. Abuse they were never designed for. They live forever on 38s for practice and 357s for serious business

I am curious as too why the M19 had barrel erosion with light loads?
DWD

[M-Tecs]

I am curious as too why the M19 had barrel erosion with light loads?
DWD


Back in the day the 110 & 125 gr 357 mag loads had a bad rep. for increased flame cutting over the 158's.

Interesting discussion here

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-654611.html

http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-revolvers-1961-1980/170450-flame-cutting-normal-wear.html

[DeadWoodDan]

Thank you! always wanting to know more.

[376Steyr]

The Model 19 was plagued with cracked forcing cones when firing 125 gr. jacketed magnums. This coincidentally happened when cops stopped practicing with wadcutters in their duty guns, so the 19's started taking beatings they weren't intended to.

[tazman]

I got one!
I have to wait a couple of days to pick it up, but it is going to get shot this weekend.
The dealer had 14 of them. He must have gotten a batch in from somebody all at once since most of them had the double action disabled on them. He claimed it was for target shooting in Europe. I stayed away from those.
The gun I got was a K38 Target masterpiece. Pre model 14. It shows a little holster wear but no abuse. Cylinder locks up correctly. Cylinder gap looks right. Chambers are clean. The bore looks perfect. The forcing cone looks good. May have had some trigger work as the double action pull is incredibly smooth. I will need to check out how it fires in double action mode to make sure it doesn't need a new spring, but that is easy to replace.
It had a set of Hogue grips on it which fit my hand well so that is a plus.
Now I am looking forward to the weekend.

By the way, the dealer didn't want any pictures being taken in the store. I guess he was a bit paranoid but that's his business. I will take some after I get the gun home.
The dealers location is in Galesburg Illinois. He has a web site and the link is http://www.simpsonltd.com/
The revolver I bought is still listed on the site until they update it. The link for my gun if you wish to see it is http://www.simpsonltd.com/product_info.php?products_id=31798
The search engine on the site works well and he has tons of other guns in the store. Lot of antiques and old military rifles.
He probably has 300 long guns sitting in racks on the floor where anyone can handle them. It has been nearly 20 years since I had been in that store and it had changed a lot.
Everything from a $50 22lr to a $8000 double rifle. The double rifle was in a case behind the counter though. Lots of collectors stuff.

[M-Tecs]

He must have gotten a batch in from somebody all at once since most of them had the double action disabled on them. He claimed it was for target shooting in Europe.

The single action triggers were a stock OEM part. You could order them with it or as a drop in after market part. The belief was you could get a better single action pull. They were popular with the bullseye shooters. I have one in a 14 and one in a K22.

[tazman]

The single action triggers were a stock OEM part. You could order them with it or as a drop in after market part. The belief was your could get a better single action pull. They were popular with the bullseye shooters. I have one in a 14 and one in a K22.

I didn't know that. Thanks for posting. I learned something new today.

[Char-Gar]

The K-38 is a truly wonderful handgun and I think you got a good one. Enjoy it....

[EMC45]

I recently got a Model 67 and Model 10 for $425 OTD locally. Both appear to be PD trade ins and both were dirty and the 67 went back to Smith for the firing pin bushing to be re installed. Both shoot great and are both in real good shape. The 10 is a 4in skinny barrel and the 67is a 4in as well. Not trying to brag, but they are out there if you look.

[Petrol & Powder]

I think you will be very happy with that K38. They are classics. As for the smooth DA pull, that very well may be factory and not the result of trigger work. A lot of those older S&W's had very good actions when made and they only got better with use.
Enjoy your new gun.

[BruceB]

There are plenty of "stories" about the M19's susceptibility to the .357 loads of the 60's and onwards.

By coincidence, I am also a handloader who dates "from the '60s and onwards".

AND, my experience with the Model 19 ALSO dates "from the '60s and onwards".

With utter truth, I can say that I have NEVER bought a single factory-loaded .357 cartridge.... I was/am a HANDLOADER by George! Most of us handloaders aren't bothered by any concerns whatever about factory ammo.

The 19's apparent failing with factory loads was forcing-cone cracks, and possibly some flame-cutting. Bore erosion was not a factor in my recollection, and MOST CERTAINLY not with 'light loads", either in the 19 or other K-frames.

Virtually all of my revolver shooting of any center-fire caliber utilised cast bullets.... and still does. I have worn new barrels in several calibers to where the forcing cones were rounded-off, and rifling origins were visibly flattened. It took many thousands of cast bullets to do that, rest assured.

At no point in almost fifty years of revolver shooting, has any unusual damage....like cracked forcing cones.... ever appeared in my guns.

Even my .38 loads were definitely energetic, and the magnums were...heh... let's just say that they were MAGNUMS. These full-power recipes were fired extensively in my 19s, as well as N-frame 27s. No problems.

Grapevine "facts" can often be dis-proven, or the situations avoided, by an intelligent handloader. Hard-and-fast "rules" in handloading, or in shooting generally, are regularly shown to be in error. Researching with an open mind can pay off in many ways.

[M-Tecs]

http://www.gunblast.com/Butch_MagnumLoads.htm

http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-revolvers-1961-1980/173730-k-frame-cracked-forcing-cone.html

[DeadWoodDan]

I familiar with Simpsons, I was just on his site last couple of weeks looking for a K31. Really never thought about looking for other firearms on his site as I knew it best for retired military long guns. Glad you found one! It looks great.

As far as the single action trigger being factory, I am curious can this be converted back to DA? I'm not familiar with internals of revolvers so wondering if parts are available and something anyone can do or gunsmith friendly?

[M-Tecs]

As far as the single action trigger being factory, I am curious can this be converted back to DA? I'm not familiar with internals of revolvers so wondering if parts are available and something anyone can do or gunsmith friendly?
For the OEM parts its just changing them out. No mods so you can put the original parts back in at anytime. I purchased both of mine in the mid 80's. I don't know if they are currently available as new parts.

For used or old stock I would try http://www.jackfirstgun.com/

[Petrol & Powder]

M-Tecs, Thanks for the article on forcing cone cracking. I've always considered the .357 magnum models of the K-frame (Models 13, 19, 65 & 66) to be 38 Special revolvers that can shoot .357 magnums. When S&W produced the .357 mag K-frames, at the urging of Bill Jordan, I believe their engineering was sound. 125 grain jacketed hollowpoints and the associated problems, came along much later. I believe the cracking issue is real but the tales of it have grown larger than the actual issue itself. There are a lot of factors, including the increasing age of those guns (higher cumulative round counts over a larger number of guns). However, the issue is real and 125 gr JHP's clearly accelerate it. A previous poster, I think it was Al, stated that a model 19 would live a long time on 158 cast lead .357 magnum loads and that is certainly true.
The .357 mag is a very useful cartridge and has its place but I far prefer the 38 Special for most applications. Bill Jordon's concept of a K-frame .357 magnum was a gun that is carried a lot and shot a little. In that capacity the magnum K-frame excels!
The L-frame Smiths, Ruger six series and GP-100's remove all concerns about the use of magnum loads with the Six series probably being the lightest of the bunch.

[Char-Gar]

As the name of Bill Jordon came up in connection with the Model 19, I think a little personal story might fit here and add a little to the discussion.

I was raised in Brownsville, Texas, where I still live. At a teenager, the Border Patrol Academy was located a few miles from here at Bayview Texas. The site is now an ICE detention center. Bill Jordon was stationed down here at the time and was an avid Skeet Shooter. I shot Skeet as well and knew him from the Skeet range where we shot on the same squad a number of times.

The Smith and Wesson Combat Magnum (Model 19) was indeed the brain child of Bill Jordon who dubbed the pistol "The answer to a lawman's prayer.". The Border Patrol did all their practice with 38 Special target wadcutters and those who carried the 357 Magnum practiced with these low end 38 target loads and carried the magnum loads while on the river.

I was at my favorite shooting spot on the Rio Grande River near an old smuggler's crossing named Las Prietas when Jordon and another man rolled up on us in a BP jeep having followed our tracks in the soft dirt. We traded pleasantries and Jordon decided to do a little shooting of his own. He took the 357 Mag loads from his Combat Magnum and got some of the BP issue 38 Wadcutters from the Jeep. We then proceed to "make smoke" and fire at random targets on the soft sandy bank of the Rio Grande on the Mexican side. He offered his pistol to me, where I fired several cylinders of the target wadcutters.

The bottom line is the Combat Magnum as envisioned by Bill Jordan was to be carried with full snort magnum loads and shot in practice with 38 Special loads. As an aside, the 357 Magnum loads Jordon removed and carried 12 more on his belt were handloads of Lyman 358156 GCHP over a red line charge of 2400.

Bill Jordan was a very kindly soft spoken man with a pronounced Louisiana accent. He had time to encourage us kids in shooting and pass on tips and advise without being authoritarian about it. Anyway this is what I know about Bill Jordon and the Smith and Wesson Combat Magnum that was his brain child.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A little more...There were a few, but not to many Border Patrolmen that carried Combat Magnum as they had to purchase them on their own. Most preferred to carry the standard issue Colt Border Patrol Special. This was a special order 4" Official police with a straight tapered barrel in 38 Special. IIRC the INS made a contract purchase from Colt for 500 of these handguns in 1954. The issue ammo for them was the standard 160 grain round nose lead bullet, and again they practiced with the 38 Special target wadcutters. I fired a few of this handguns and really liked the weight and feel of the heavy barrel. When the Smith and Wesson 10 was offered with the heavy barrel option, I snapped one up. They really help the sights to steady down on the target. If I can do it, I will download a pick of such a Colt, now in the Border Patrol Museum in El Paso.

[BruceB]

PLEASE, gentleman.....

It's "Bill JordAN", not"Bill Jordon".

I wholeheartedly agree with the advice that a Model 19 will have a loooong lfe with my normal 358156 bullets and judicious 2400 loads.

Al looked at one of my ammo boxes and commented that the 14.5/2400 was a tetch on the ambitious side, but the guns seemed to enjoy it. In those days I was shooting mostly three N-frame M-27s, but the 19 was doing fine as well.

I'm now fresh out of N-frames and being handicapped have little use for field loads in my 19, so it sees mostly .38-level loads for the range.

[Char-Gar]

Mea Culpa on the misspelling and I most humble ask for your forgiveness. I will say 200 Hail Marys and put $5.00 in the Poor Box.

The standard load of Hercules 2400 under the Lyman 358156, back in the day down here in Texas, was 15.5 grains for the solid point and 16.0 grains for the hollow point. This is the charge weights for those bullets that appear in Lyman Handbook No. 41. I have known folks who fudge those loads by an extra .5 grain under each bullet type. We no longer use these red line loads anymore for good reason, but it was standard practice "back in the day".

These loads were used in Smith and Wesson N frames and a the few Colts around in 357 Magnum. The Combat Magnum was the first K frame in 357 Magnum and folks continued to shoot these fire breathing loads in them as well. I never heard of any handgun or any size failing with them, but who knows what might have happened outside of my line of sight and hearing.

When Winchester 296 came out and the Speer 146 grain half jacked hollow point of soft lead came out, Bill Jordon/Jordan switched to this combination with a blistering amount of powder. A check of my old record books show I loaded this bullet over 16.9/296 sparked by a CCI 550 primer.

[BruceB]

No problemo on the spelling.... I was going back over the thread and noticed that you actually spelled Mr J's name BOTH ways in one of your latest posts.

Was it Mark Twain, who said that anyone spelling a word in only ONE way was showing a lack of imagination?

Looking back (WAY back!) we surely did push the envelope(s) in many and assorted ways, n'est-ce pas?

[Char-Gar]

No problemo on the spelling....

Ahem...The most frequently used Spanish word for problem is "problemA", with the feminine vowel ending. This is fitting because most of my problems in life have feminine origins.
:-)

In 1964 I purchased a new Colt New Frontier (5.5" bbl.) in 357 Magnum. It cost me $125.00 plus tax which was a high end handgun in those days. Not wanting to abuse my new toy, I used 13.5/2400 under a 150-160 cast SWC. I found this to be highly satisfactory and killed my first Texas Whitetail deer with a handgun with this load. I don't believe I have shot any much hotter 2400 loads in a 357 Mag handgun since that time.

Not being a true single action fan, I swapped that New Frontier for a good Model 27 a few years later.

[BruceB]

OUCH.... ya got me!

My"knowledge" of Espanol is derived from reading Louis L'Amour novels over three-plus decades in the Canadian Arctic.... and the occasional muttered cuss-words from 9.3 Al on the scattered occasions when we get together.

Therefore..... mea culpa (to quote some guy I know here).

[Char-Gar]

OUCH.... ya got me!

My"knowledge" of Espanol is derived from reading Louis L'Amour novels over three-plus decades in the Canadian Arctic.... and the occasional muttered cuss-words from 9.3 Al on the scattered occasions when we get together.

Therefore..... mea culpa (to quote some guy I know here).

That is all right, being a Border Rat, I don't speeeek no pinche Frog (freench), like you folks do up in the deep freeze. All I know is that "boo coo" and "bastante" mean the same thing. :-). BTW...I am fluent in Spanish and Mexican profanity.

[ballistim]

That is all right, being a Border Rat, I don't speeeek no pinche Frog (freench), like you folks do up in the deep freeze. All I know is that "boo coo" and "bastante" mean the same thing. :-). BTW...I am fluent in Spanish and Mexican profanity.

I worked doing utility trenching in AZ in the 80's and I learned 95% profanity and maybe 5% of the rest in Spanish from my south of the border co-workers.

[Char-Gar]

I worked doing utility trenching in AZ in the 80's and I learned 95% profanity and maybe 5% of the rest in Spanish from my south of the border co-workers.

Growing up Gringo on the border, made the learning of Mexican profanity a necessity. You need to know what 97% of the population was calling you. Sometimes that can be real important!

[Petrol & Powder]

I take full responsiblity for the misspelled name and no disrespect was intended.

[onceabull]

Talking languages,I must admit,that growing up in the Sacramento Valley,it was considered common knowledge that the only Spanish one ever needed was--"comprende Smeeth 'n Wesson":kidding::kidding: Onceabull

[soldierbilly1]

I have an interest at the moment for a Smith and Wesson in 38 special. My thought was to find a model 14 with a 6 inch barrel or a 15 with a 4 inch barrel(did they make a 15 with a 6?).
I just called every gun store within 60 miles of my house and could find only one.
What gives with that?
A few years ago you couldn't go into a gun store without tripping over several of them.
Funny you should say this. I got my mod 15 4 inch combat mstr about 8 yrs ago. I bought it for nothing. In Cabelas in Hamburg PA you cant find them or any revolvrrs for that matter, new or used. Once throwaways, now hard to get. The gun market is nuts, inexplicable. Btw, the 15 is very accurate.
I am thinking of buying the Diamondback 38 clone by Taurus.
Good luck in your search.
Billyboy

[Ilwil]

The revolver I find to be really scarce is the Model 13. I've got, or had all the others. 15s seem plentiful here; I picked up two just before Washington voters were suckered into banning all private firearm sales. I'd like to find a 13 because I carried a 65 when a cop, but I love a blued finish best.

[robertbank]

BruceB you will appreciate this more than most. Last fall I managed a US Customs Service 686 no dash with a 105.14`` barrel. I t cost me $1,100Cdn on a trade for my STI Trojan. The Cdn dollar at the time was near par with the US. Our dollar has since gone south with the price of oil. Just legal 105mm barreled guns are rarer than hens teeth. Good score but at a price. I am currently on the hunt for a 5`Model 10 which if in near new condition should run me about $400.Cdn. FYI the prohibitive guns (less than 105mm run around $250. No market up here for them anymore.

Times have changed thanks to a former Liberal Gov`t.

Take Care

Bob

[Petrol & Powder]

Drifting the thread a little here, sorry.
I'm vaguely familiar with Canada's restrictions on revolver barrel lengths. I've always assumed that Ruger's 4.2" GP-100 had that peculiar 2/10" extra to allow sales in Canada. Considering that the U.S. uses that silly English system of measurement and 4" seems to be a nice round number for the length of a revolver barrel.....a 105mm limit seems a bit odd. One might assume that the real purpose of that legislation was to ban a large number of U.S. made revolvers but they didn't count on those cleaver Yankees making the barrel just a wee bit longer?

[robertbank]

Drifting the thread a little here, sorry.
I'm vaguely familiar with Canada's restrictions on revolver barrel lengths. I've always assumed that Ruger's 4.2" GP-100 had that peculiar 2/10" extra to allow sales in Canada. Considering that the U.S. uses that silly English system of measurement and 4" seems to be a nice round number for the length of a revolver barrel.....a 105mm limit seems a bit odd. One might assume that the real purpose of that legislation was to ban a large number of U.S. made revolvers but they didn't count on those cleaver Yankees making the barrel just a wee bit longer?

It was not aimed at US made products it was aimed at removing as many handguns as politically possible by the then Liberal Government. The 4.2`Ruger GP-100 and the later S&W ``Canadian Edition`` 686 are both made with 4.2`` barrels to just exceeed the minimum requirement for handguns in Canada. Ruger was the first to do it and made huge inroads into the handgun market up here forcing S&W to follow suit. As it turns out US manufacturing being what it is there are some, not a lot, of 4`` guns with barrel lengths exceeding 4`` by a bit or using the metric 105mm. I have one of the US Custom 686`s that does and there is another I know of as well. Most of the guns were simply registered as four inch prohibitive guns BUT if measured closely and you have a gun like mine with a measurement equal to or in excess of 105mm the gun can be re-registered as a restricted firearm and sold to anyone with a firearms license.

I would love to pick up a K Frame four inch with a barrel length of 105+mm. I suspect they are out there it is just a matter of finding one. I really have not applied myself to the hunt. I suspect sourcing one in the US would be easier than arranging the guns export and import paper work. It can be done, just takes time and of course money.

Just for interest sake those who read this thread who have four inch S&W`s measure the barrels with a set of calipers. The measurement is from the rear of the forcing cone to the muzzle crown. A gun like that in decent shape sell up here for around $1,100 cdn or more.

Take Care

Bob

[tazman]

I picked up my new to me Smith & Wesson K38 Target Masterpiece and fired some rounds through it.
It is an excellent shooter and has the potential(when I get better) to be a great gun.
The trigger is as smooth and light as any handgun I have fired. Even the double action pull is smooth and light.
That last worried me that the springs might have been lightened up but it turned out not to be a problem. I fired 3 cylinders full in double action using CCI and Winchester primers and all fired with no light hits.
It is going to take me a bit to get used to the light trigger.
I didn't save any targets because I was having an off day, but I can say the gun shoots slightly better than my other revolver even on a bad day.
Since nothing happens without pictures, here is a picture of my revolver.
130746

[robertbank]

Very nice. There is something special about a Smith.

Take Care

Bob

[DeadWoodDan]

taz,

did you take the time to look at the other 14's? I am not to far from Simpsons and may take a Saturday drive with the wife and "accidentally" stop in. I've checked out his stock on line and from what others have said, wouldn't be afraid of purchasing one of the single action revolvers and converting it back to DA.

[tazman]

They mostly looked pretty good. I didn't know about the trigger being a simple thing like that or I might have purchased one of the others.
I really only looked at 3 of them but they all looked good. The one I purchased was only slightly better than the others.

[tazman]

I did a bit more checking on the K38 since I have it home. The cylinder throats are all a tight but passable fit for a .358 cast boolit. The forcing cone looks reasonably smooth. Doesn't appear to be any off center strikes on the forcing cone due to cylinder being out of line. No off center hits with the firing pin. I fired about 200 rounds through it without any leading that I could see. No shiny flakes when I cleaned it.
My double action groups were roughly the same size as my single action groups due to the nice trigger pull.
I think I may have hit the jackpot here.

[M-Tecs]

A single action only on GB http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=467505244

[tazman]

That's a pretty steep price he wants for that one. $1295 for a buy it now. And you know his reserve is going to be close to that.

[9.3X62AL]

Agreed, ESPECIALLY since it isn't fully original Model 14-4 condition. Its stock set is post-1981, which is incorrect for a pinned-barrel Model 14 (1980 or newer). The S&W factory-set single-action-only feature is indeed a scarce variation, and would add value to an unfired NIB example. But this item already has swapped stocks and is likely fired, so the seller needs to get off his high horse and figure out that his "scarce" feature makes the item LESS attractive--not more so--and set a price accordingly. It isn't a "collector grade" firearm by any stretch of imagination short of feverish or unhinged. I'm a little peeved by gougers trying to force NIB pricing on used/fired/reblued examples this week. As I told a correspondent recently, I may have been born at night--but it wasn't LAST NIGHT.

[DeadWoodDan]

I had bid on a few of his 14's and I or others never did hit his reserve, so he must think hes sitting on a gold mine.

[9.3X62AL]

He isn't alone in that regard, Dan. We have all seen similar madness prevailing over 22 LR ammo prices for 3+ years now. If not for some of the members here, I might have thought that the entire firearms hobby world had lost its mind. My response to the contagion has been to retire from the field almost entirely, and this week's experience told me I returned to action a bit too soon. %$&^#@ gougers!

[onceabull]

Allen,Sir, I take it from comments above,that you will NOT be providing competition for the NID field grade 28 G he currently has listed.!!!! "probably re-case colored""--really,really.... Onceabull

[9.3X62AL]

When pigs fly, Onceabull--and not until then.

[M-Tecs]

At this price I think I need two!!!!!!!!! http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=467918389

[robertbank]

$10K for a Colt, ummm maybe if it was NIB and had only been out of it only to attend the Battle of the Little Big Horn or climbed Vimy Ridge back in the day. But then it is in .357Mag likely missed both of those events.

Take Care

Bob

[onceabull]

That sellers' rationale is a bit tough to follow....For example he has listed at GB, #468769815. with a "buy it now" only 20-25 % above what I would be marking it on one of my "value priced" gunshow tables...Onceabull

[Der Gebirgsjager]

131164I like this one. .357 Mag., .38 Spec. capable, increased corrosion resistance, adjustable sight, great grips.

[robertbank]

131164I like this one. .357 Mag., .38 Spec. capable, increased corrosion resistance, adjustable sight, great grips.

Looks like my 686 Customs Service issue gun. If he measures the barrel and it 105.14mm it would sell up here for >$1,100 Cdn. Just saying.

Take Care

Bob

[Der Gebirgsjager]

131173Bob, that's a good guess, but in keeping with the overall K-frame theme of the thread, the one above is actually a Mod. 66. Here's another one for you, but an N-frame .45 ACP. I did measure the barrels on both, and both are 4 3/32". But I'm keeping them!

[robertbank]

You are killing me. The 4 3/32 is just a tad to short. It must convert out to =>105mm to be legal up here. Get there and you have my attention.

Nice handguns BTW.

Bob

[youngmman]

The Model 48 was made in 4", 6", and 8-3/8" barrel lengths for the 22 Winchester Rimfire Magnum cartridge, to wind up the Masterpiece revolver line. They were marketed as refined versions of their K-frame service sidearms for field use and target competition, but in NRA 2700-series work these models and Colt's counterparts got replaced by self-loading systems as time went on after WWII.[/QUOTE]

I bought a Mo. 48 in about 1974, sent it back to the factory and they fitted a 22lr cylindar, target hammer, target trigger & target grips. They also replaced the crane screw with an allen head screw so the cylinders could be changed without damaging the original slotted head screw.

Sweet shooting gun

[9.3X62AL]

A VERY worthwhile modification, Youngman. I'm not enamored enough with the 22 WinMag to chase down a 2nd cylinder for my 6" 617, or to hunt up an M-48.

[youngmman]

A VERY worthwhile modification, Youngman. I'm not enamored enough with the 22 WinMag to chase down a 2nd cylinder for my 6" 617, or to hunt up an M-48.

I'm not sure they would do it now anyway.

[BruceB]

There was a new-condition M48 (.22 WMR) at a recent Big Reno Show. I hadn't seen one in a long time, so it was a surprise.

Don't recall the asking price now, but then I wasn't really interested in buying it, either.

[Frank46]

You asked about the model 14's and 15's. Bought my model 14 K38 at cabela's of all places. Was reduced in price down to $350 and while it won't win any beauty contests cleaned up nice and shoots nicely. The model 15 or combat masterpiece I got at a local gun show some years back. $300 if I remember right. Most of the shooters who have either one aren't turning them loose anytime soon. Couple of the guys at our range swear by them and don't even ask if they are for sale. Frank

[tazman]

Given the issues I have had locating a model 15, I can understand them wanting to hang on. I haven't had my K38 long enough to know a lot about it's capabilities yet other than it shoots as well or better than the revolver I had been using. I am looking forward to a long and happy relationship with it.

[DeadWoodDan]

do you plan on casting for it and what mold? I have various .357 molds, but never had one in a full WC or have even loaded with them. I have a few different SWC's , RN's ect. For some reason always wanted to add the WC, and try it.

[tazman]

I will most probably never shoot a jacketed round through it. I have molds in WFN, SWC, and full wadcutter to use. I have already fired WFN and SWC through it with promising results.
I am going to try some wadcutters this weekend.
I don't currently have any really light loads set up but I think I my need to do that.

[Petrol & Powder]

Other than making nice neat holes in paper with a little less lead & powder; the 158gr SWC loads shoot just as well as wadcutters in my K-38. That K-frame S&W is a work of mechanical art. WC's save a little recoil, lead and powder and do have a real attraction.

[Leadforbrains]

131321My model 67

[tazman]

Other than making nice neat holes in paper with a little less lead & powder; the 158gr SWC loads shoot just as well as wadcutters in my K-38. That K-frame S&W is a work of mechanical art. WC's save a little recoil, lead and powder and do have a real attraction.

I found I didn't have any wadcutters that weren't loaded already with heavier charges so I loaded some semiwadcutters with light loads of Bullseye. I will try both loads either tomorrow or over the weekend depending on time.

Leadforbrains---- That is a sweet gun.

[9.3X62AL]

Perusing the Smith & Wesson website for new revolvers, a number of Classic (their sobriquet) K-frames still are listed in 38 Special. I don't know how close to MSRP they are priced in the Real World, but a good used model will likely run a bit less coin to capture and it will lack the not-so-classic features like Glory Hole, short-cut construction, and MIM parts. Mind you, I've had a case of hungries for a 4" N-frame for some time, and I have considered going to this Dark Side to scratch that itch. But not yet. And other less costly holes in the arsenal beckon, and I nearly always have time to peruse a nice K-frame at a gun shop. One of those aforementioned gaps is a 6" Model 14 At The Right Price. It will happen.

[Char-Gar]

Ah... 4 inch N frames. Here is a 38/44 Heavy Duty and a Model 28. I have some more, but they are 44s and 45s.

Give in and scratch that itch. You will feel so much better.

[9.3X62AL]

Ah, Charles' Roller Porn. Delightful. My appetite in 4" runs to the 44 or 45 side of the cabinet, but a good-shape 38/44 would always be welcome.

[TCFAN]

Well I just dropped my 14-6 [see post 4 above] off at FedX to be sent back to S&W to be checked over.It went from being able to keep 10 rounds in the 10 ring at 50 yards to not being able to keep 6 shots on a 2 foot piece of paper at 25 yards.Happen overnight. Have know idea.Just started spitting lead and throwing shots all over the country side.
S&W sent a shipping label right out so its on its way.Hope they can find out what wrong..........Terry

[tazman]

I took the K38 to the range today with some light loaded SWC ans WFN ammo. It shot really well. Easily controlled and accurate.
For some reason I was shooting better with one hand than with two today. So I just stuck my off hand in my pocket and proceeded to practice in classic target form. By the end of the practice session I was actually doing a good trigger squeeze and didn't know when the gun would fire. If I can continue this well, all I have to do is get steadier at holding.
I may actually have had a breakthrough today.
Only a couple of really good groups and I didn't save the targets. Nothing most on this site can't better in any case. I am just glad I am seeing progress.

[BruceB]

Okay, okay dagnabit. STOP this thread, STOP IT I say, STOP IT, STO.......ooops. Too late.

A couple hours ago, I stopped at my utmost favorite Reno funshop (yes I said "funshop").

On a shelf was a..... Model 15-4 from 1981, 4" pinned barrel.

The previous owner had taken the NEW gun and shipped it off to be Duracoated. The finish is now a lovely matte silver, and is completely unmarred. There's not even a turn line.

The trigger pulls are good enough that I wonder if some gunsmith has worked on them.

The revolver is wearing Pachmayr "Presentation" grips, which feel fine but are sadly lacking in pizazz. Fortunately, I have a set of K-frame Goncalo Alves grips from my M19....very nicely colored and grained. They will really spice up the appearance.

Many years ago, I bought a Safariland left-handed duty holster for the 4" K-frame, in the absolute certainty that I would own such a gun in the future. The brilliant blue on the Model 19 is too nice to use it in this tight-fitting holster, but this new M-15 should do fine in the leather.

THIS THREAD has lowered my sales resistance to the point that I was a sitting duck for this revolver. Thanks a lot guys (Actually, I MEAN that.... you fellers have led me to water.... and I drank.)

So, there's another beautiful Smith in my safe. Happy, happy, happy......

[tazman]

Congratulations on the new gun. I wonder if anybody else has been seduced by the thread?

[onceabull]

Hoping to preempt any bidding war,Bruce, I'll offer 349.00 greenspans for your new prize...:veryconfu Onceabull

[Love Life]

Did somebody say 4 inch N Frame?

[9.3X62AL]

Congratulations on the new gun. I wonder if anybody else has been seduced by the thread?

Seduced? Not quite, but ENTICED--most assuredly. Most of my time is being spent re-configuring the shop, so the temptation exposure time has been reduced.

[DeadWoodDan]

Congratulations on the new gun. I wonder if anybody else has been seduced by the thread?

Post #45 back on page 3(?) didn't take me long, was looking for a Mod.14, but after email exchanges felt the deal was better than a GB buy. Still wanting to take a trip to Simpsons to look theirs over.

[Petrol & Powder]

I was seduced by DA revolvers years ago. That affliction is only held in check by my limited funds.

[BrianL]

Roughly 30 years ago I overheard a conversation between two family friends about a relative dying and of a bunch of guns that had to be sold and the house cleared out.
Long story short I got two S&W revolvers of the same vintage, both 5-screws. One is a pre-model 15, the other a pre-model 17 in 6". They insisted on only $145 for the 38 and $175 for the 22.
I got a call about two weeks later and was told that they had found another one. That one was a nearly new 17-3 with the 8 3/8 barrel. They must have been talking to someone cause the soaked me $275 for that one.
I felt guilty but they insisted. I ended up helping them move all of his stuff to storage and other odd jobs.

What is sad is that now it is cheaper to load for the 38 than find and buy 22lr ammunition

[Char-Gar]

Roughly 30 years ago I overheard a conversation between two family friends about a relative dying and of a bunch of guns that had to be sold and the house cleared out.
Long story short I got two S&W revolvers of the same vintage, both 5-screws. One is a pre-model 15, the other a pre-model 17 in 6". They insisted on only $145 for the 38 and $175 for the 22.
I got a call about two weeks later and was told that they had found another one. That one was a nearly new 17-3 with the 8 3/8 barrel. They must have been talking to someone cause the soaked me $275 for that one.
I felt guilty but they insisted. I ended up helping them move all of his stuff to storage and other odd jobs.

What is sad is that now it is cheaper to load for the 38 than find and buy 22lr ammunition

While low, what you paid for those pistols 30 years ago was not highway robbery. I think you did well and no guilt should attach to the purchase. You did not make a low ball offer, but paid what they asked. This is commerce 101. It is the responsibility of the seller to know the value of his item before putting a price on it. Besides they got enough free labor out of you to make up the difference.

Even 50 years ago, it was as cheap to cast and load for the 38 Special, if you used free scrap lead, as it was to buy 22 LR ammo. That is what got me into casting in the first place. I could shoot the 38 for the same price as the 22 and it was allot more fun.

[tazman]

While low, what you paid for those pistols 30 years ago was not highway robbery. I think you did well and no guilt should attach to the purchase. You did not make a low ball offer, but paid what they asked. This is commerce 101. It is the responsibility of the seller to know the value of his item before putting a price on it. Besides they got enough free labor out of you to make up the difference.

Even 50 years ago, it was as cheap to cast and load for the 38 Special, if you used free scrap lead, as it was to buy 22 LR ammo. That is what got me into casting in the first place. I could shoot the 38 for the same price as the 22 and it was allot more fun.

I agree completely.

[BrianL]

You know, I hadn't looked at it that way. I just looked at the 5-screws as being a steal.
I had forgotten that my brand new 19-3 had not cost much more that the 17-3 at the time.

[Char-Gar]

You know, I hadn't looked at it that way. I just looked at the 5-screws as being a steal.
I had forgotten that my brand new 19-3 had not cost much more that the 17-3 at the time.

30 years ago old 5 screw Smiths didn't bring a premium. They were just older guns and most often cost a little less. Collector's create these distinctions and not any form of reality.

People ooh and ahaa over older Smiths, but in reality there are not any better than latter production. Smith did hit a rough patch in the earlys 80's during it's Bangor Punta days, but even then, their customer service fixed any problems. There are only two kinds of sixguns, good ones and bad ones and they can be found in any period of production.

This is coming from a Smith and Wesson DA nut with the company logo tattooed on his ankle. During one period of time, I think it was me and the French government that kept Smith and Wesson in business. :-)

At any rate just enjoy the handguns and don't look back. An old man once told me that hindsight is like foreskin, and both of them have no use.

Here are pair of 5 screw M&Ps I bought some years back. The 1913 vintage with much blue wear cost me $100.00 in 1985 and the 1931 with very little blue wear cost me $190.00 in 1993. Both were full price at the time in honest to gosh gun shops in Texas.

When shooting these old gents, keep the loads on the low side, if you don't want to turn them into junk.

[GLL]

Although I prefer my N-frame .38 Special revolvers the Model 14 is an exceptionally accurate gun !

Model14
http://www.fototime.com/45AEDF4F01AB411/large.jpg

Model 15
http://www.fototime.com/9273C7A928B5C90/large.jpg

Jerry

[Char-Gar]

The barrel on that 15 is a long sum-buck. In a pinch you could use it as a jack handle. :-)

[GLL]

Although I enjoy shooting the K-frame Model 14's my preferred platform for .38 Special is the .38/44 N-frame !
I love the pre-1950 long-action versions ! :)

http://www.fototime.com/EB5787BE2D4883A/medium800.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/D1C1E88A3D3343A/medium800.jpg


Thirty years ago nobody wanted the .38/44 Outdoorsman or Heavy-Duty revolvers and prices were dirt cheap.
How times have changed !

Jerry

[Petrol & Powder]

OK, I have to ask.. What is the difference between a model 14 with a 6" barrel and a long barreled model 15?
They look like long barreled, K-framed, blued, adjustable sighted, 38 Special revolvers to me.
I always thought the model 15 was the 4" model 10 with adjustable sights and the model 14 was the same gun with a 6" (or longer) barrel and trigger stop?

[tazman]

OK, I have to ask.. What is the difference between a model 14 with a 6" barrel and a long barreled model 15?
They look like long barreled, K-framed, blued, adjustable sighted, 38 Special revolvers to me.
I always thought the model 15 was the 4" model 10 with adjustable sights and the model 14 was the same gun with a 6" (or longer) barrel and trigger stop?

As I understand it your thoughts were correct.
That being said, a number of variations have appeared over the years and I am not certain which came from the factory and which were done by enterprising gunsmiths. I have seen model 14 guns with a variety of barrel lengths as well as model 15 guns. I am not certain where it all ended up or how it came to be.

[GLL]

OK, I have to ask.. What is the difference between a model 14 with a 6" barrel and a long barreled model 15?
They look like long barreled, K-framed, blued, adjustable sighted, 38 Special revolvers to me.
I always thought the model 15 was the 4" model 10 with adjustable sights and the model 14 was the same gun with a 6" (or longer) barrel and trigger stop?

Actually a very good question !

The Model 14 (Target Masterpiece) was mainly offered with the 6" ribbed barrel and patridge front (target) sight (other barrel lengths are rare). My 6" happens to be a factory single-action-only variation.

The Model 15 (Combat Masterpiece) was mainly offered with shorter 4" and 2" narrow ribbed barrels with a Baughman front sight on a plain ramp. My 8 3/8" gun along with similar 6" versions were only offered for a short time post 1986 and had the patridge sight.

Trying to understand S&W reasoning for all of this sometimes produces headaches ! ;)

Jerry

[Petrol & Powder]

Thank You Jerry
Most (if not all) of the model 15's I've seen had barrels between 2" & 4" and ramp front sights. Basically Model 10's with adjustable sights. I think they were all square butt style frames.
Most of the Model 14's (including mine) have 6" barrels, patridge front sights, a factory installed trigger stop and target hammers & triggers. A long barreled "Combat Masterpiece" seems like a misnomer to me but I don't work for S&W :shock:

[robertbank]

Jerry I have a copy of Jeff Cooper's book, "The Complete Book of Modern Handgunning" published 1961 and it has a list of handguns available at the time of writing. FYI the most expensive gun listed is the Sig 210 at $130US and in 2nd place the Colt SAA at $125.US. The Model 14 K38 Masterpiece is listed as having a 6"barrel with a notation "(83/8" on special order)". The Model 16 in .32 cal was listed as the K-32 Masterpiece with a 6" barrel and the Combat Masterpiece in 38spl with a 4" barrel. The Model 19 has the 4" barrel.

Another model of note the Model 27 is listed with barrels of 31/2",5",6" & 83/8" for the sum of $120US.

1961 would put in Grade 11 at the time with hardly a dime in my pocket!

Take care

Bob

[BruceB]

In '61 I was in the Canadian Army. Our service pistol was the Canadian-made (Inglis-produced) Browning High-Power. A brand-new commercial High Power at that time was $74.50, in EITHER the USA or Canada.... I bought an Inglis-made pistol for $60.... too high, looking back.

I met a gent at the range a couple days ago. He was shooting a K-22 with the 8.375" barrel...... as-new condition. Didn't want to part with it (this was an hour or so before I tripped over the siren-calling Model 15 at my dealer's.)

I do love the blue-steel S&Ws, but this "new" M15 I just bought looks positively sensuous in silver Duracoat, and the Goncalo Alves M19 grips I bolted on set it off perfectly. NICE revolver!

[tazman]

In 1961 I was 9 years old and just about to acquire my first firearm.
Model 72A Winchester bolt action 22LR. I still have it and it will still shoot squirrels in the head. It did so this past season.
Paid the grand sum of $18 for it. I got it from my brother who really didn't care for guns. I was buying 22 shells from the local hardware store for 40 cents a box of 50.
I collected a lot of pop bottles and mowed lawns for that gun.

[robertbank]

Well since we we are down memory lane in 1956, age 12, I rode my bike down to Simpson Sears with a note from my mom which said she gave the store permission to sell me a Sure Shot 22 S, L, LR marked rifle made by Lakefield Arms located in Lafefield, ON or Cooey down the road in Cobourg, ON. I suspect every kid in Canada wound up with or trained on either a Cooey or Lakefield 22. The gun cost me $22.00 along with 2 boxes of CIL Whiz Bang LR for 25 cents each. Rode the bike home with the gun resting on my "spreads" aka bike handles. Do that today and the parents would likely be reported to Social Services and the local SWAT/ERT group we called in to deal with a suspected sniper. The kid on the bike would be lucky to survive. The local police public relations type would report several officers were forced to shoot when they feared for their lives as the bike sped towards them. CBC would interview the local Liberal hack who would blame the demise of the Long Gun Registry for the whole incident.

Some things have changed in the last 60 odd years.

Take Care

Bob

[justashooter]

Back to S&W target guns, my preference goes to the model 67, but I do have a few model 15 that were bought as "police trade ins" for less than $200 some years ago in 95% condition. A few of them are heavy barrel variants, and glassy smooth, but the best trigger I ever had on a S&W was on a late 20's pre-10 6" gun that I foolishly sold.

[justashooter]

I would love to pick up a K Frame four inch with a barrel length of 105+mm. I suspect they are out there it is just a matter of finding one. I really have not applied myself to the hunt. I suspect sourcing one in the US would be easier than arranging the guns export and import paper work. It can be done, just takes time and of course money.

Just for interest sake those who read this thread who have four inch S&W`s measure the barrels with a set of calipers. The measurement is from the rear of the forcing cone to the muzzle crown. A gun like that in decent shape sell up here for around $1,100 cdn or more.

Take Care

Bob

wondering if canadian laws in re this have loopholes that could be exploited by, say, silver brasing a short extension to the end of barrel, thereby making it "legal length"? in USA we can consider any silver soldered extension a "permanently attached" extension of the barrel as long as solder temp exceeds 1100*F.

[robertbank]

wondering if canadian laws in re this have loopholes that could be exploited by, say, silver brasing a short extension to the end of barrel, thereby making it "legal length"? in USA we can consider any silver soldered extension a "permanently attached" extension of the barrel as long as solder temp exceeds 1100*F.

I doubt it. Tehy are pretty fuzzy about the measurement. There are 4È S&W K frames out there with 105MM barrels. My 686 UC Customs gun measured 105.14MM which got it registered as restricted vs prohibitive. It really is just a case of finding one. I would think a Model 10 would be a good place to start. Little J Frames come up for sale to those who were grandfathered in for $250 - $350. My 686 I got for $1,100 mostly due to its barrel length.

Take Care

Bob

[tazman]

I doubt it. Tehy are pretty fuzzy about the measurement. There are 4È S&W K frames out there with 105MM barrels. My 686 UC Customs gun measured 105.14MM which got it registered as restricted vs prohibitive. It really is just a case of finding one. I would think a Model 10 would be a good place to start. Little J Frames come up for sale to those who were grandfathered in for $250 - $350. My 686 I got for $1,100 mostly due to its barrel length.

Take Care

Bob

I'm glad I don't have to deal with your restrictions on barrel length. We have enough regulations without any more. Illinois is not a particularly gun friendly state(Chicago is terrible) but there are others that are worse.

[BruceB]

It would seem that the cursed bureaucrats and lawyers knew what they were doing when they selected 105mm as the cut-off point between "restricted" and "prohibited" handguns.

Measuring four S&W 4-inch revolvers a few minutes ago, all four came up just a "silly millimeter"or so short of the magic 105mm. For at least a while, there was a small cottage industry, making barrels that were just over that 105mm length.

The gun laws, new and old, were a major factor in our decision to get the hell out of Canada in '97. We crossed the border into the USA with seventy-odd guns in a big Ryder truck, WITH correct ATF paperwork.... the US border officials didn't even open the truck.

As we were leaving the border station, one agent said, "Welcome to the US. We hope you'll be very happy here."

I find it difficult to imagine the Canadian reaction, if we had been moving into Canada with seventy guns.

[robertbank]

Bruce if your paper work is in order it would be the same thing oddly enough coming back assuming your guns are not prohibitive firearms under the act. Arrive today at the US border with 70 guns and the guns would be inspected. Things changed after 911. It has only been the last few years I have been sent to secondary going into the US. Mostly because the guys in the booth are young and frankly either are uncomfortable in dealing with the paper or do not know how to deal with it. I suspect the Northern Border is used as a training ground before heading south. I always get a more experienced officer inside who knows what to look for and we always end up talking about our guns we shoot. Since the Canada Customs were armed I have never been sent to secondary. A lot of them are members of local gun clubs and seem to realize we are all not a bunch of bandits. They also are more familiar with the required paperwork than they used to be.

One thing I will point out to anyone sought of the 49th reading this. If you have a criminal record (A DUI in the US is a federal crime in Canada), and you do not get in. Same is true going south. AFIK the five nations (Australia, Canada, New Zealand, UK and the US are now all linked together with access to each others crime records. You pop up on the grid and you go home. If it is a criminal offense in the country you are visiting you are on the next flight home.

Take Care

Bob

[BruceB]

Bob, all of that makes perfect sense.

Things certainly do change over time, and there have been some real game-changers since I came south.... like 9/11, the DHS in the States, and the arming of the Canadian border service.

It sounds like you are getting a friendly reception when coming south as well, and I'm glad to hear it. We don't need officialdom to complicate our lives more than they already are. Our hunting party crossed into Canada back in November with a bunch of rifles in the truck, and we did get a reasonable group of officers. If the paperwork was correct, there wasn't much hassle. That likely applies going either North or South.

Permanent change of residence (immigration) adds another layer of complication, though. The long list of forbidden firearms in Canada needs careful study before anyone from the USA approaches the border, because such guns are subject to seizure.

[robertbank]

Bob, all of that makes perfect sense.

Things certainly do change over time, and there have been some real game-changers since I came south.... like 9/11, the DHS in the States, and the arming of the Canadian border service.

It sounds like you are getting a friendly reception when coming south as well, and I'm glad to hear it. We don't need officialdom to complicate our lives more than they already are. Our hunting party crossed into Canada back in November with a bunch of rifles in the truck, and we did get a reasonable group of officers. If the paperwork was correct, there wasn't much hassle. That likely applies going either North or South.

Permanent change of residence (immigration) adds another layer of complication, though. The long list of forbidden firearms in Canada needs careful study before anyone from the USA approaches the border, because such guns are subject to seizure.

As long as the guns are declared prohibs would be returned to the owners if found legal in the US on the provision the owners agree to return to the US voluntarily. Things get ugly if the guns are not declared. What usually happens is there is a fine involved, guns are seized and a court date set. The TV show Border Services had a Texas judge who assumed his carry permit was valid in Canada. IIRC he was quite understanding about the situation, agreed to return for a court date and returned to the US.

Under the law Border Services can seize the car, toss you in jail until your court appearance and the individual could do jail time. I doubt it happens often but the laws are there. Pretty much the same as in the US as it applies to Canadians. As long as you respect the laws of the country you are visiting there are seldom any problems. My advice is always be honest when crossing the border. In todays world you just have to be. The stakes are to high for them to tolerate much nonsense.

Take Care

Bob

[wv109323]

The NRA introduced the Distinguished Revolver competition. It requires a .38 Special with a 158 SWC or RN bullet.
The demand for a suitable revolver dried up the supply of 6" Model 14, 15,19, 27 ,28 and such.

[tazman]

This K38 target masterpiece I acquired is a little bit of a picky bird. I have been loading my 38 specials with a set of Lee dies. The crimp die has what Lee describes as a modified taper crimp in it.
On a whim I changed out the crimp/seater for an RCBS crimp seater that puts a good strong roll crimp on the cases.
After substantial testing yesterday, I found this revolver likes the roll crimp a lot better than the Lee crimp. Even with light loads of Bullseye(2.7grains). I would have thought that case tension would be enough to get consistent ignition. With the roll crimp my group size dropped by nearly half. These were shot from a rest so I took as much of me out of the equation as I could.
I guess now I get to go through the rounds I have loaded up and run them all through the new crimp die.

[jonp]

"I find it difficult to imagine the Canadian reaction, if we had been moving into Canada with seventy guns."

I can't

[jonp]

This K38 target masterpiece I acquired is a little bit of a picky bird. I have been loading my 38 specials with a set of Lee dies. The crimp die has what Lee describes as a modified taper crimp in it.
On a whim I changed out the crimp/seater for an RCBS crimp seater that puts a good strong roll crimp on the cases.
After substantial testing yesterday, I found this revolver likes the roll crimp a lot better than the Lee crimp. Even with light loads of Bullseye(2.7grains). I would have thought that case tension would be enough to get consistent ignition. With the roll crimp my group size dropped by nearly half. These were shot from a rest so I took as much of me out of the equation as I could.
I guess now I get to go through the rounds I have loaded up and run them all through the new crimp die.

I've been putting a good roll on my rounds for the Combat Masterpiece I picked up. Up near 3gr Promo the leading has almost disappeared but I'm using the last of the sized .358 rounds up. Next will be unsized WC and SWC's. I think I'll have good luck. At that loading its a tack driver. All black which is pretty good for me.

I almost pulled the trigger on a Heavy Target yesterday on another sight. Good price on it too.

[tazman]

I have put over 400 rounds through the barrel on this revolver and have yet to clean the barrel. It is still shiny and clean as it can be.
The cylinder on the other hand, I need to clean every time I get done with a shooting session. Usually near the end of a session I can feel a little grit in the chambers when I insert the cartridges. This is all powder residue. I am loading with Bullseye currently and it is known to be a somewhat dirty powder. It is quite accurate and consistent though, and that counts for a lot.
I will gladly clean powder residue after shooting if the powder gives me good accuracy.

[fecmech]

I have put over 400 rounds through the barrel on this revolver and have yet to clean the barrel. It is still shiny and clean as it can be.

Taz I haven't cleaned the barrel in my Model 14 in years, no reason to. The cylinder gets cleaned periodically to remove lube & powder fouling and the gun gets wiped down but that's it. I shoot many thousands of rds per year and they're 99% Bullseye powered behind the 120 LeeTC and H&G 158 RN. It's an excellent powder in the .38 spl. for target and service loads.

[DeadWoodDan]

Just picked my M15 tonight, will post some pictures tomorrow.

[tazman]

Just picked my M15 tonight, will post some pictures tomorrow.

Looking forward to the pics.

[tonyjones]

For those of you shooting deep seated wadcutters try Accurate Arms Solo 1000. This is one of the cleanest burning powders I've ever used. Depending on the lube you use you may still have to deal with that issue. TJ

[robertbank]

"I find it difficult to imagine the Canadian reaction, if we had been moving into Canada with seventy guns."

I can't

Have your paper work in order and fill your boots. Don't and it would be about the same as if I hit the US Border without my paper work in order. Nothing special about owning guns. Like in the US you just learn the laws and follow them.

Take Care

Bob

[jonp]

Just picked my M15 tonight, will post some pictures tomorrow.

Me too. The barrel on my 15 with Promo is as clean as a whistle too. Leading just near the start of the rifling. Maybe it's something with this model?

[DeadWoodDan]

Will be awhile before I put some down range, hoping to slug and check the Cyl dimension over the weekend. Have everything on hand to feed her though.


132870132871

[tazman]

Very nice. Lovely gun.
Not sure the gas checks are needed for 38 special though, unless you are using really soft lead in those hollow points.
I have been shooting everything from light target to +P in mine without a trace of leading using plain base boolits.
I have been sizing mine at .358.

[DeadWoodDan]

Your correct, on the GC's not needed, they were just part of the photo op. :Fire:
Gave mine a good cleaning last night, previous owner must have taken care of that as I must say its been the cleanest used weapon I've ever purchased. End of barrel must have what appears to be holster wear, couldn't get a good picture of it.

I could get a .358" gage pin to enter on all of the cyl.'s from the entry side; the pin would stop just before flush on most on go through on at least one. The barrel slugged at .355-.356"; almost thought about doing it agian as I thought that on the low side. Decided to load some up and see what it will eat.

Besides the MP Thompson GC mold and a few NOE mold the only other non GC mold I have is the LEE 358-105. It will have to do for now, looking at a WC design always wanted one anyway.

DWD

[tazman]

There are many good shooting wadcutter designs out there. I have tried Lyman 358091, 358063, 358432, and Lee regular and TL versions. The ones that shot the best for me were the Lee TL and the Lyman 358432. The others were very close though and might work better in a particular gun.
Since your barrel slugs smaller than your cylinder throats, size to fit the throats. From your measurements, anything sized .3575-.358 should work perfectly.

[DeadWoodDan]

Yea, I'm thinking this should be a good tack driver, or I hope as my 20yr old daughter may start shooting. There is an 8cavity Cranmer 140GR in the S&S classifieds but I think I'm going to put money towards a NOE, I think the 8C will be overkill for me. I may even get a LEE TL, my C358-156SWC 6cavity is one of my favorite molds, it just drops nice boolits every time. I am going to try some without GC's to see how it groups first.

tazman,
This has been a very good thread, and thank you.

[tazman]

I didn't slug the barrel on my K38. I just measured the cylinder throats to see what they would take. I loaded for the cylinder throats and shot the rounds to see if there were any problems. Turned out that approach worked perfectly. The older Smith's were well made guns and seem to be sized properly for cast.

[TCFAN]

I shoot a lot of different wadcutters. The Lee TLWC is a very nice boolit. Shoots good in my 14-6 and drops from my 6 cavity mold at .358+. A little 45-45-10 or now some of Bens Liquid lube and they are ready to shoot. And they do shoot very well for me..............Terry

[dubber123]

You may find as I did, there is very little difference at 50 yards between the various wadcutters. You may also find other designs will out shoot wadcutters. I still shoot a fair amount of WC's, and at the shorter distances, they are very accurate, and typically eat a bit less lead and powder. They aren't always the ultimate in accuracy though.

[tazman]

You may find as I did, there is very little difference at 50 yards between the various wadcutters. You may also find other designs will out shoot wadcutters. I still shoot a fair amount of WC's, and at the shorter distances, they are very accurate, and typically eat a bit less lead and powder. They aren't always the ultimate in accuracy though.

Very true. While I get good accuracy with wadcutters, I get better accuracy with other designs. Particularly at the longer distances.
Right now I have 2 that are somewhat similar in design, that give the best accuracy in my 38/357 guns.
Noe 360-160-WFN is one the other is Lee 358-158 RF. Both of these shoot with identical accuracy with both my revolvers.
The NOE boolit cuts a hole as cleanly as any wadcutter.

[Petrol & Powder]

I've shot bushels of wadcutters over the years but a vast majority off those have been "store bought". The Speer 148 gr HBWC being a particular favorite. I now cast solid WC's but I generally shoot SWC's. I agree with tazman, WC's are very good but other designs are often better. A Keith style SWC in the 150-160 gr range is very hard to beat. They use a bit more lead and powder than a wadcutter but not much and are more versatile.
Now, a good WC is an excellent bullet when starting a new shooter on a centerfire revolver. The recoil is low, they make nice clean holes in targets and they conserve powder & lead. If I was going to start a young shooter on 38 Special, I might consider buying a 1000 factory HBWC bullets and then transitioning to a SWC mold.
If I was going to confine myself to one 38 Special bullet it would be a Keith style 158 gr SWC but if I could have two - I would add a decent solid WC.

[tazman]

I put another 150 or so rounds through my K38 today. The more I shoot this gun the better it gets. It has increased my confidence to the point that I am shooting longer distances(for me) now.
At 10 yards it is boringly accurate. At 20-25 yards I am now shooting groups instead of patterns. I am grouping at 20 yards the way I used to at 10 yards 6 months ago.
Still haven't needed to clean the barrel. Still shiny as can be with no leading at all. The cylinder gets cleaned after every session.
Needless to say, I am very pleased with this revolver.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

133364Here are two Mod. 14s. Both are 6" barrels and the same size, but the camera makes the nearest one appear larger. The top one was issued to me by a law enforcement agency way back in 1969 and became my property after two years of service. Originally it had grips like the bottom one, but I changed them out for some Herrett Shooting Star grips which I then modified to accept speedloaders when they came into use. I reblued it in 1982, and it's seen almost no use since. The bottom revolver is really the nicer of the two. I purchased it used in 1966, and it came with target trigger and hammer, but had the Magna-style grips, which I replaced with the target grips. Both are very accurate, with exceptionally smooth actions. I used to shoot PPC with them back when that was in style and both could shoot one large ragged hole at 25 yards. They probably still can---but I can't! Best load was a 148 gr. hollow base or double end wadcutter over 2.5 gr. of Bullseye.

Tazman--what on earth are you holding in that photo? Some sort of snake or fishing lure?

[tazman]

Tazman--what on earth are you holding in that photo? Some sort of snake or fishing lure?

That is my world record channel catfish I caught a couple of years ago. Possibly the smallest ever caught on hook and line. He is almost as big as the dip bait worm. I still have no idea how he got the hook in his mouth.
I had the devil's own time getting it out without hurting him.
133373

Those are a couple of very nice revolver you have there.

[robertbank]

That is my world record channel catfish I caught a couple of years ago. Possibly the smallest ever caught on hook and line. He is almost as big as the dip bait worm. I still have no idea how he got the hook in his mouth.
I had the devil's own time getting it out without hurting him.
133373

Those are a couple of very nice revolver you have there.

You have to admire his tenacity. I caught a baby Muskie back in Ontario while fishing for Bass. The little begger was no bigger than a pencil. I remember he looked at me and his eyes said, "make one mistake and I'll take you on too".


Bob

[mtgrs737]

My first revolver purchase was a 4" model 14, it was a police trade in. I still have it today, I learned to cast and reload because of that revolver, it was a hoot to shoot.

[BrianL]

My first revolver purchase was a 4" model 14, it was a police trade in. I still have it today, I learned to cast and reload because of that revolver, it was a hoot to shoot.
That brings back memories. My first was a model 10 police trade in.

[waco]

This is my 14-2
I've had it about five years now.

[tazman]

Sweet. I have a set of grips like those that I can put on my K38 but they don't work well for me. My finger gets a pinched feeling in between the trigger guard and the grip. I do better with the Pachmeyer grips I have on it now.

[Petrol & Powder]

134311
The Model 14 was a classic. S&W got it right.