Looking for ideas, info, pictures of Gemmer rifles

[mazo kid]

I am going to try to build a Trapdoor Gemmer soon and am looking for ideas, info, tips, photos, etc of this classic rifle. I have seen a couple of threads but don't have the time to look for them again. Also, a search here doesn't turn up anything. Interested in stuff like: Trapdoor lock vs Hawken type, poured pewter nose cap or steel one, stuff like that. Thanks.

[waksupi]

https://www.google.com/search?q=gemmer+rifles&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=sQjUVMGYBIzboAS5rYCQCQ&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAg

[mazo kid]

Thanks Ric. Have you ever built a Gemmer type rifle?

[waksupi]

I've had the itch, but never scratched it (yet). A friend of mine used to build a lot of them.

[varsity07840]

Scroll down for pics.

Duane

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?209231-Barrel-break-in

[mazo kid]

Thanks all for the links. I am getting a nice photo gallery put together which is influencing my thinking about what I would like to do. So far, my thoughts are: octagon Green Mountain barrel (I have one in 40 caliber), probably will use the TD lock as the Hawken lock needs an extended nose that (in my eyes) looks ungainly, Hawken furniture, and poured nose cap. I will extend the TD tang so it can be drilled and tapped for a tang/vernier sight. Anyone else have any thoughts or tips?

[Coffeecup]

Having handled about 8-9 of the original Gemmer conversions, and built a couple copies, here are some random thoughts.

Before I'd actually handled one, I had the impression that these were serious functional upgrades, much like the Freund conversions of the Sharps. After seeing a few of them, I think they were more of a way to sporterize common surplus rifles. My reason for thinking this is simple: with the exception of one Spencer conversion, they all used the original (round) factory/military barrel rather than the octagonal barrel we see when we think of one of these.

The (5) original Gemmer trapdoors I've seen shared a number of common factors. All were fit with commercial lock (not the original trapdoor lock), and all had double-set triggers. They all had Hawken-style stocks (in maple) and furniture (including a folded, soldered-on, hollow rib), and a silver front sight blade. All used an iron nosecap and separate entry pipe. Three used the original military rear sight, while two used the Hawken-pattern slide-adjusting rear sight.

Best matches for furniture are (not surprisingly) the late pattern buttplate and triggerguard. The closest-to-matching lock is L&R's "Leman" lock, with a modified hammer from an original back-action lock (or with a bit more work, L&R's back-action lock). The hammer will have to be bent and extended to hit the firing pin, but the back-action hammers will have enough clearance to go around/over the latch so you can open it on half-cock.

L&R's lock will also work well with the set triggers; putting a fly in an original trapdoor lock is a pain. The easiest way is to slot the tumbler and set the fly in the slot, pivoting on a pin. DO NOT USE A BLIND PIN, wasted a weekend's work and a good tumbler when I did that. . . .

The easiest way (for me, at least) to do the breech tang was to file off the original so there was a "step" for the new tang. Then have a good welder (not me) weld on a new tang. Shape the tang to match the ones used on a late Hawken, sort of an elongated beavertail.

To get the stock shape correct, you can use any of the drawing sets of a late Hawken, adjusting to match your hardware. Watch the size of your wiping rod pipes; many sets of Hawken parts are set-up for a 7/16" ramrod--too large for a 45-70.

I did one rifle using a trapdoor lock, wouldn't do it again. The lock is slow, and the size of the plate upsets the lines of the rifle. On the other hand, I used an octagon barrel on that one, and despite not being "correct" or "true to the originals", I really liked the look. The other rifle was done using the barreled action from an H&R, with lock etc from L&R.

If I were doing one today, and wanted a "Gemmer" rather than just a sporter of the period, I'd use the L&R parts and round barrel. If just building a sporter, I'd use a trapdoor lock fitted with a fly, double-set triggers, octagonal barrel, and cast pewter nosecap.

Jim

[mazo kid]

Thanks for your thoughts Jim, I appreciate them. It looks like I am getting more questions than answers and just may end up with a Gemmer/sporter rifle! I was going to use the original TD lock, but after hearing your thoughts, I will probably use the L&R Hawken lock I have. I have several walnut planks that have been air-drying for several years, so my stock will be home grown walnut. I had already decided I want a 3/8" wiping rod as I would like my rifle chambered in 40-50 SBN. Please PM me (or email) with any other tips and/or pictures. Thanks again.

[Coffeecup]

L&R's Hawken lock is a good lock, but the Leman is a better fit for the project. The Hawken lock is cut for a patent breech, and results in a gap in the latch area. The Leman lock is cut for a drum, and is more-easily fit to the latch of the trapdoor action.

I've seen a number of very nice "Gemmerized" trapdoors done using the original lock.

[M-Tecs]

Having handled about 8-9 of the original Gemmer conversions, and built a couple copies, here are some random thoughts.

Before I'd actually handled one, I had the impression that these were serious functional upgrades, much like the Freund conversions of the Sharps. After seeing a few of them, I think they were more of a way to sporterize common surplus rifles. My reason for thinking this is simple: with the exception of one Spencer conversion, they all used the original (round) factory/military barrel rather than the octagonal barrel we see when we think of one of these.

The (5) original Gemmer trapdoors I've seen shared a number of common factors. All were fit with commercial lock (not the original trapdoor lock), and all had double-set triggers. They all had Hawken-style stocks (in maple) and furniture (including a folded, soldered-on, hollow rib), and a silver front sight blade. All used an iron nosecap and separate entry pipe. Three used the original military rear sight, while two used the Hawken-pattern slide-adjusting rear sight.

Best matches for furniture are (not surprisingly) the late pattern buttplate and triggerguard. The closest-to-matching lock is L&R's "Leman" lock, with a modified hammer from an original back-action lock (or with a bit more work, L&R's back-action lock). The hammer will have to be bent and extended to hit the firing pin, but the back-action hammers will have enough clearance to go around/over the latch so you can open it on half-cock.

L&R's lock will also work well with the set triggers; putting a fly in an original trapdoor lock is a pain. The easiest way is to slot the tumbler and set the fly in the slot, pivoting on a pin. DO NOT USE A BLIND PIN, wasted a weekend's work and a good tumbler when I did that. . . .

The easiest way (for me, at least) to do the breech tang was to file off the original so there was a "step" for the new tang. Then have a good welder (not me) weld on a new tang. Shape the tang to match the ones used on a late Hawken, sort of an elongated beavertail.

To get the stock shape correct, you can use any of the drawing sets of a late Hawken, adjusting to match your hardware. Watch the size of your wiping rod pipes; many sets of Hawken parts are set-up for a 7/16" ramrod--too large for a 45-70.

I did one rifle using a trapdoor lock, wouldn't do it again. The lock is slow, and the size of the plate upsets the lines of the rifle. On the other hand, I used an octagon barrel on that one, and despite not being "correct" or "true to the originals", I really liked the look. The other rifle was done using the barreled action from an H&R, with lock etc from L&R.

If I were doing one today, and wanted a "Gemmer" rather than just a sporter of the period, I'd use the L&R parts and round barrel. If just building a sporter, I'd use a trapdoor lock fitted with a fly, double-set triggers, octagonal barrel, and cast pewter nosecap.

Jim

Wow great info. A Gemmer TD is one of my next projects and this info is very timely!!!!!!!

[waksupi]

Keep in mind with the barrel, round or octagon, it should be tapered.

[varsity07840]

One issue with using an L&R or similar lock is that in most cases the bar on the thumb latch will not clear the hammer at half cock. I have a Davis lock on mine with an extended nose and the bar won't clear. Not a big deal. When I open the breech I ease the hammer just past half cock.
I thought about trying to modify the tumbler to three clicks like on a TD but it was not worth the
effort.

Duane

[mazo kid]

Maybe I misspoke when I called the lock I have a Hawken lock. IIRC, I got the lock at Friendship when Sharon Rifle Co. went out of business and was selling their remaining parts. It is not cut for anything and is new. I put a similar lock on a left hand Hawken I was building and had to cut the plate for the snail.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v133/mazokid/Hawkenlock_zpsac253b53.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/mazokid/media/Hawkenlock_zpsac253b53.jpg.html)