357 mag vs. 44 mag for hunting deer size game

[vmathias]

Ok, before I start I know the 357 vs. 44 mag has been debated to death. I am asking this question as I want to pick up a new Ruger Super Blackhawk in either on of the calibers. I plan on using this solely for whitetail/ coyote hunting. I do know the 357 with the right loads in plenty ample for the above game out to 70 yards. I would like to hear opinions from actual users of said calibers and success they have had for game. Obviously being on this site i would like info of Boolits used for said game. Info is greatly appreciated.

[M-Tecs]

I am a 44/45 fan but the 357 with good load and reasonable yardage will get the job done. A good friend loves to hunt coyotes with a handgun. For him the 357 is to much for him too shot well. With his 32 H&R or 327 Fed. he is deadly accurate. If you can shoot them equally as well go with the 44 but if you shoot the 357 better go with that.

[vmathias]

I am a pretty athletic guy (so I'd like to think haha) so shooting either wouldn't be an issue. I just want to ensure a clean humane kill on said game. I have no doubt it would be plenty for coyotes. Whitetail deer is my main concern. I am the type of hunter that would rather get very close than far away from my game so 70 yards would be my max.

[kenyerian]

Both will work. I have both calibers but prefer the 44 mag for deer. But I'd never get rid of my 357 either. I like to have it with me when I'm on my tractor working around the farm. The 44 definitely hits harder. I really like the Lee C430-310-RF . It really hits hard. I emailed Mihec to see if he had any extras from the group buy pm the 429640 2 cavity GC. Looking forward to working with that boolit.

[NSB]

I've shot and killed over fifty deer with handguns. The vast majority were with the 357mag. That being said, I own and used the 44mag on several deer also. I've been hunting almost exclusively with handguns for over forty years. All things being equal, the 44mag will do more than the 357mag will do. The practical difference isn't in which one kills the best, they both do well in that area. The difference is in how well the individual shooter can shoot either handgun. I've found that a lot of shooters don't shoot big bore handguns as well as rimfires. When you get into the guns that have some recoil and lots of noise, the dreaded "flinch" reflex comes in to play. It is definately more pronounced with the 44mag than the 357mag. If you are not recoil sensitive, the 44mag logically would have a theoretical advantage simply due to having the ability to penetrate better and leave a larger wound channel. All this being said, the only deer I've ever lost with a handgun was with a 44mag. I simply made a bad shot and the deer was not recovered. A bad hit with a 44mag is far less lethal than a good hit with the 357mag. It really all comes down to bullet placement and which one you can shoot best.

[43PU]

I've killed 3 deer a year for the past 3 years with a 7.5" super black hawk 44 mag with the Lee 310 modified to plain base, powder coated with 19.5grn of 296. The point of the story
....a 357 May expand but a 44 mag will not shrink

The sound that bullet makes when it hits a deer is sickening

43pu

[gtgeorge]

Given the choice I would go for the 44. I had many successful seasons with nothing but a 4" .357 and managed to do very well. Since adding a 41 mag to the mix the .357 has stayed home for some reason LOL. Either will do the job but the 44 will increase the range and shot opportunities IMO.

[vmathias]

I've killed 3 deer a year for the past 3 years with a 7.5" super black hawk 44 mag with the Lee 310 modified to plain base, powder coated with 19.5grn of 296. The point of the story
....a 357 May expand but a 44 mag will not shrink

The sound that bullet makes when it hits a deer is sickening

43pu

Haha, Nice quote.

[vmathias]

I've shot and killed over fifty deer with handguns. The vast majority were with the 357mag. That being said, I own and used the 44mag on several deer also. I've been hunting almost exclusively with handguns for over forty years. All things being equal, the 44mag will do more than the 357mag will do. The practical difference isn't in which one kills the best, they both do well in that area. The difference is in how well the individual shooter can shoot either handgun. I've found that a lot of shooters don't shoot big bore handguns as well as rimfires. When you get into the guns that have some recoil and lots of noise, the dreaded "flinch" reflex comes in to play. It is definately more pronounced with the 44mag than the 357mag. If you are not recoil sensitive, the 44mag logically would have a theoretical advantage simply due to having the ability to penetrate better and leave a larger wound channel. All this being said, the only deer I've ever lost with a handgun was with a 44mag. I simply made a bad shot and the deer was not recovered. A bad hit with a 44mag is far less lethal than a good hit with the 357mag. It really all comes down to bullet placement and which one you can shoot best.

The flinch factor is not an issue, I am a firearms instructor and teach this very thing. I have shot full load 454 casull's very accurate out to 50 yards. These are just the type of replies I am looking for from experienced users. GREATLY appreciated.

[Slow Elk 45/70]

+1 for ya gotta be able to shoot the weapon with out flinching etc.etc. I use 44's , have used 44 spl,357,41mag.....but I have an affair with the 44 , shoot what ever you can handle best:bigsmyl2:

[shoot-n-lead]

I have used both and both will work....but the 44 trumps the 357...though, I still find myself walking out the door about a third of the time with that 7.5" .357 Bisley Blawkhawk...it is sweet and deadly with that 358429.

[Thumbcocker]

I cannot speak to hunting deer with a .357. I would bear in mind that PA. whitetails can get to be pretty big. I have been hunting deer with .44 magnums since the 1990's here in Illinois. What I love about the .44 is it's versatility. .45 Colt level loads on up. I usually use low end magnum level loads. Some that have taken deer for me are as follows, all with Keith boolits: 18.5 2400, 20.0 2400, 22.0 IMR 4227, and mlst recently 22.0 of H110/296. Standard disclaimers about load data. None of those loads are hot but all have shot accurately in my guns. I have used solid boolits cast from ACWW and hp's from an original Ideal single cavity that were 50/50 pbww. All have put venison in the freezer. All I do is visualize the soccer ball in the ribs and shoot for the exit hole.


My longest shot at a deer has been 65 yards. I practice at 50 and shoot out to 100 yards. Most of my shots are 30-45 yards. I normally take two Illinois white tails per year with whichever one of my .44's fits my hand best that year. I have also take 2 coyotes with .44's both at a lazered 50 yards. Not coyote hunting just wrong place and time for ole Wiley during deer season.

Some of the best advice I ever got was on this forum from .44 man and others. Develop your load and check with paper then put the paper targets away and shoot at stuff. Soda cans shot shells etc. until you know in your bones that the weak link in the shooting system of gun, ammo, and shooter is you. Then all you have to do is shootup to your gun and load.

[tigweldit]

Split the difference. .41 Mag and you'll never look back!

[vmathias]

Split the difference. .41 Mag and you'll never look back!

Its funny you mention that cause I am looking at the .41 as well. For some reason they come quite a bit cheaper in the Super Blackhawk than the 44 mag.

[45 2.1]

Both will do fine, provided you can do your part and place a proper boolit where it needs to go (those two things are more important than caliber). I've killed a load of handgun deer in Illinois since the season started in 1991 with about all the allowed calibers at distances from 4 yards to 140 yards....... all of them will kill deer dead, but given a choice the middle 41 magnum is better than either of your choices.

[shoot-n-lead]

Soda cans shot shells etc. until you know in your bones that the weak link in the shooting system of gun, ammo, and shooter is you. Then all you have to do is shootup to your gun and load.

That is, indeed, GREAT advice...will make you a much better shooter in hunting situations. Actually, never seen it said anywhere, but I do this, also.

[freebullet]

One or more of each is the only clear answer.

[vmathias]

Both will do fine, provided you can do your part and place a proper boolit where it needs to go (those two things are more important than caliber). I've killed a load of handgun deer in Illinois since the season started in 1991 with about all the allowed calibers at distances from 4 yards to 140 yards....... all of them will kill deer dead, but given a choice the middle 41 magnum is better than either of your choices.

Are you basing this statement on ballistics/energy vs. recoil?

[shoot-n-lead]

the middle 41 magnum is better than either of your choices.

There are two calibers that for some reason, seem to demand that their fanciers promote them with statements similar to this...41mag and 45 colt.

You just don't hear 44 guys proclaiming " it will out do a 41 mag or it will do everything a 45 colt will do"...must be some kind of syndrome.IDK

[Digital Dan]

The practical difference isn't in which one kills the best, they both do well in that area. The difference is in how well the individual shooter can shoot either handgun.

Truth is where you find it, but accepting it might be another story.

[45 2.1]

Are you basing this statement on ballistics/energy vs. recoil?

No........... just practical field experience actually killing many deer, with many different boolit designs. As a matter of interest, the 41 has a flatter trajectory than the 44. Keith was one of the first to note that.

[45 2.1]

There are two calibers that for some reason, seem to demand that their fanciers promote them with statements similar to this...41mag and 45 colt.

You just don't hear 44 guys proclaiming " it will out do a 41 mag or it will do everything a 45 colt will do"...must be some kind of syndrome.IDK

I don't have a favorite caliber in a handgun, I use most all of them at times. I just know which are easy to use with great effectiveness. I usually see the 44 guys as Dirty Harry copies though.

[shoot-n-lead]

I know 45 2.1, I know...

What really confuses me though, is, with all of the virtues you point out, why has the 41 mag been relegated to what can best be described as a "niche" caliber that has always struggled under the threat of obscurity. In case you have not noticed, the shooting/hunting world has, for the most part, left the 41 mag to languish on the vine. Please tell us how and why this "best of class" cartridge has been left for dead.

[cbrick]

I know 45 2.1, I know...

What really confuses me though, is, with all of the virtues you point out, why has the 41 mag been relegated to what can best be described as a "niche" caliber that has always struggled under the threat of obscurity. In case you have not noticed, the shooting/hunting world has, for the most part, left the 41 mag to languish on the vine. Please tell us how and why this "best of class" cartridge has been left for dead.

I would say it's mostly a matter of bad press over the years. I've worked up numerous long range revolver accuracy loads in 357, 41 and 44 mags. The 41 has been the most accurate and easiest to find a good load for. Why? Probably the bullet selection used but between these calibers if I were given the choice I would take the 41 for flat trajectory and down range energy. Fewer bullet choices in 41 but today with NOE, MP and accurate molds this isn't really an issue.

So with the OP's choice between 357 and 44 . . . Yeah, I would take a 41 first.

Rick

[Hickok]

I have used both, and both will work, but I prefer the .44 magnum.

[45 2.1]

What really confuses me though, is, with all of the virtues you point out, why has the 41 mag been relegated to what can best be described as a "niche" caliber that has always struggled under the threat of obscurity. In case you have not noticed, the shooting/hunting world has, for the most part, left the 41 mag to languish on the vine. Please tell us how and why this "best of class" cartridge has been left for dead.

Ignorance mostly.... and a rather poor choice of factory loads with little distribution....... kinda like the 16 gauge. Rick's reply is spot on also.

[M-Tecs]

Lots of discussion and opinions here on the 41 vs 44

http://smith-wessonforum.com/reloading/232834-41mag-vs-44mag.html

http://americanhandgunner.com/the-14-magnum-turns-gold/

[Jeff Michel]

I used a .357 (rifle) with 180 HP Milhec this fall. Shoulder shot at 90 yards. She covered about thirty yards. Plenty of penetration. Pick your shots and keep them on the close side and you'll be just fine.

[HABCAN]

Back in the day when I was shooting them all, I ended up most often with the .44 Mag because>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>if I wanted one of the others I could load DOWN to it.:-P

[1Shirt]

Either works with the right load, within range limitations of the shooter.
1Shirt!

[vmathias]

Although I am pretty new to casting my buddy is teaching me. He is a freaking genius when it comes to all things firearms related. Eats, sleeps and well you know. I know with regular jacketed bullets a 357 will def get the job done. My purpose for the original question is the fact that whatever I buy I only want to shoot cast boolits out of it. I have done a ton of research But know there is no better place than right here to learn. Again I know that most of you hear these questions over and over and probably think they are pretty redundant. Although I like to hear what loads are used I will play with what works best for me, it would be no fun otherwise. Your hunting experience with cast Boolits in said calibers with "clean" kills is what I am interested in. Again thank guys, your time means A LOT.

[gtgeorge]

Well with all said just roll the dice and put meat in the freezer. Almost sorry I mention 41 now because it doesn't need to be a caliber fued. They all work but I do prefer more energy usually. I only added 41 last year and have been very pleased but can assure you a 44 will come home at some point as well. So pick one for now and add to it as you can never have too many choices?!?

[RMc]

Another perspective on the .357 as a deer and hog gun:

http://www.dixieslugs.com/images/357_and_hard_cast_bullets.pdf

[rondog]

I'm really wanting to take my latest adoptee deer hunting.....

<edit> Sorry, a 6" S&W 586 in .357mag. Just realized the photo could be mistaken for several models.... .357/.41/.44, etc.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b150/rinselman/guns/my%20handguns/DSC_0003.jpg

[44man]

Any are good and the only reason I never hunted deer with the .357 or .41 was the poor choice of bullets/boolits for them. Both take more care for big game while the .44 is just-well, easier.
Yet the .357 does work but long ago when the .44 mag came out, they made a survey among handgun hunters and the .357 had a 50% deer loss. I blame the bullets used. I do not think a .41 is that much better in that regard. I feel the .41 just looks up to the .44 with wonder. I was never taken with it and actually do not like shooting a friends. Never got the accuracy and the lighter gun is SHARP.
Then I stepped up to the .475 BFR and things changed. Even though velocity with the 420 gr boolit is the same as my .44, it drops almost every deer in it's tracks. My rifle hunting friends are amazed.
I went up again to the .500 JRH and it did not work as good, deer ran farther because it was my boolit. I made half the nose softer and 4 out of five last season hit the ground and one made 20 yards.
Don't matter what gun you choose, it is still the boolit/bullet.
You can make the .357 work like a charm or fail as fast. I was never taken with the .41. Not when the .44 works so well.
My first choice with recoil anyone can get used to will always be a .44. It needs no expansion or HP's. A Lee 310 cast hard will put deer in the freezer every time. While you fiddle with the other guns, I fill my freezer and get deer for the landowners where I hunt.

[quilbilly]

I've shot and killed over fifty deer with handguns. The vast majority were with the 357mag. That being said, I own and used the 44mag on several deer also. I've been hunting almost exclusively with handguns for over forty years. All things being equal, the 44mag will do more than the 357mag will do. The practical difference isn't in which one kills the best, they both do well in that area. The difference is in how well the individual shooter can shoot either handgun. I've found that a lot of shooters don't shoot big bore handguns as well as rimfires. When you get into the guns that have some recoil and lots of noise, the dreaded "flinch" reflex comes in to play. It is definately more pronounced with the 44mag than the 357mag. If you are not recoil sensitive, the 44mag logically would have a theoretical advantage simply due to having the ability to penetrate better and leave a larger wound channel. All this being said, the only deer I've ever lost with a handgun was with a 44mag. I simply made a bad shot and the deer was not recovered. A bad hit with a 44mag is far less lethal than a good hit with the 357mag. It really all comes down to bullet placement and which one you can shoot best. What he said!!

[44man]

I gave up rifle hunting long ago and have hunted here with revolvers for 29 years. I get 5 to 7 deer a season, subtract a few archery kills and average 6 with revolvers. That comes to 174 deer. Give or take a few. Guess what caliber has taken most of them? Yep, the .44!
Usually what I do is take a different caliber after each deer since I got other calibers. However, nothing has done as well as the .500 JRH with the proper boolit so last season I stayed with it. I don't know if I will ever take the .44 out again. I trust it 100%. But nothing beats a deer belly up at the shot. No meat loss to speak of. You might sell me a .41 cheap but I will hunt with other.
I made the .44 work with huge blood trails and a 30 yard run. But nothing is better then one down without a step. No CNS hits either. Get the boolit ahead of the diaphragm only.
A few seasons back I shot a large doe with the .44, she ran under me and I heard her crash. Made a mistake walking to the sound, could not find her. I came back and picked up blood to trail. I found her behind a big log. I was looking over the log at first. So even if you hear, you still need a trail.

[Hickok]

vmathias, reading your backround, I have no doubt that a .44 magnum would be an easy transition for you. I see you live in PA., and I know you have some big black bears like we do here in WV, and the .44 with a good cast boolit is always nice to have, "just in case."

[vmathias]

I gave up rifle hunting long ago and have hunted here with revolvers for 29 years. I get 5 to 7 deer a season, subtract a few archery kills and average 6 with revolvers. That comes to 174 deer. Give or take a few. Guess what caliber has taken most of them? Yep, the .44!
Usually what I do is take a different caliber after each deer since I got other calibers. However, nothing has done as well as the .500 JRH with the proper boolit so last season I stayed with it. I don't know if I will ever take the .44 out again. I trust it 100%. But nothing beats a deer belly up at the shot. No meat loss to speak of. You might sell me a .41 cheap but I will hunt with other.
I made the .44 work with huge blood trails and a 30 yard run. But nothing is better then one down without a step. No CNS hits either. Get the boolit ahead of the diaphragm only.
A few seasons back I shot a large doe with the .44, she ran under me and I heard her crash. Made a mistake walking to the sound, could not find her. I came back and picked up blood to trail. I found her behind a big log. I was looking over the log at first. So even if you hear, you still need a trail.

I did the same exact thing in archery this year using a x bow (torn rotator cuff). Shot an eight. He ran off like a bat out of hell into some thickets. Heard him crash very hard approx 30 yards and thought I'll sit here for a while and then go get him. NOT... I walked where I thought he had crashed. I ended up walking aimlessly for 45 minutes until I went back to find the blood trail. I know better to do this but was certain I knew right where he fell. To make a long story short I got on the blood trail and found him 15 minutes later. I realized after finding him I walked within 5 feet many times the first time looking for him. Morale of the story, NEVER, EVER assume you know where your game falls unless you see it do so. ALWAYS stay on the blood. I know better...:!::!::!:

[44man]

Yeah, you can be feet from them. Once I had two deer down and gutted one not 20 yards from the other. Got the Polaris close, went right to the first one but we could not find the other, got dark on us. I knew it was close but we could not see it. I had set her on her belly to drain so there was no white. I tripped on her!

[dale2242]

I have shot several black tail deer with a 44mag. With well placed shots they are DRT.
I tired the 357 and felt it was under powered.
I never took a shot over 50yds.
I had to track 2 with well placed shots but the 44 knocked them right down.
I was using 240 gr jacketed HPs in the 44 and 158 jacketed HPs in the 357.
With cast, I feel the 44 has the advantage....dale

[fredj338]

I'ld be happy to hunt coyotes with a 357mag, or other vermin for that matter. For deer & hogs, I like the 44mag or heavy 45colt. I don't have nearly the number of kills some of these guys do but as 44man notes, the 44mag is just easier to get it right.

[vmathias]

I'm really wanting to take my latest adoptee deer hunting.....

<edit> Sorry, a 6" S&W 586 in .357mag. Just realized the photo could be mistaken for several models.... .357/.41/.44, etc.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b150/rinselman/guns/my%20handguns/DSC_0003.jpg

That is one hell of a sweet gun!

[vmathias]

vmathias, reading your backround, I have no doubt that a .44 magnum would be an easy transition for you. I see you live in PA., and I know you have some big black bears like we do here in WV, and the .44 with a good cast boolit is always nice to have, "just in case."

Hunting black Bears is something I am yet to try. Have only ever seen one in the wild during archery so I figured I'd be wasting my time hunting a ghost. You are correct in the size thing. The one Bear that I did see while hunting archery a few years ago was a giant. He was in a corn field 30 yards from my stand. He was a foot higher than the corn while standing. He was a Biggin for sure.

[jmort]

I will never understand the notion that the .357 magnum is inadequate for deer. And I agree, that is a real nice gun.

[white eagle]

I have both cals but I always seem to grab my 44 when out for deer
my farthest with it was 79 yds.a MP 431-640 hp and 260 gr.cast with 16-1

[44man]

I will never understand the notion that the .357 magnum is inadequate for deer. And I agree, that is a real nice gun.
Not too small, it is bullet choice and even the .44 can fail with the wrong one. Soft, quick expanding bullets that will not penetrate and leave a trail can be a hard lesson.

[Lucky Joe]

I have a pair of redhawks .357 Mag and .44 Mag. the .357 is my favorite caliber because of it's versatility. Deer I will use the .44, I have had .41's but got tired of trying to find ammo, although it is the only caliber I never did cast for and with the availability of moulds today I may get another, probably not as the .357 and .44 do everything I need to do. The .41 is an excellent round. My favorite shotgun is an Ithaca 16 ga. double.

129817

[bhn22]

I know 45 2.1, I know...

What really confuses me though, is, with all of the virtues you point out, why has the 41 mag been relegated to what can best be described as a "niche" caliber that has always struggled under the threat of obscurity. In case you have not noticed, the shooting/hunting world has, for the most part, left the 41 mag to languish on the vine. Please tell us how and why this "best of class" cartridge has been left for dead.

Easy. The 41 mag is less powerful than the 44, requires use of the exact same gun size, which is slightly heavier than the 44 versions, and never really had any big name gun writers drop everything else to use it exclusively. This doesn't mean it doesn't have any value, it just never got the proper support from the beginning.

[DougGuy]

Take the .44 and run with it. Shot placement is KEY, with any caliber, but for flat out knock them down and kill them like NOW, the .44 has the edge over the .357 every which way from Sunday.

[Lonegun1894]

I know you said mostly deer, but this may help you anyway, even though most of my experience is with hogs. I have taken a lot more hogs than deer, but never kept notes as to numbers of each. Mostly, this is due to having a set season and bag limit for deer, while hogs there are no closed seasons, bag limits, or weapons limitations to speak of here. Anyway, consider it as 1-4 deer per year for me and at least one hog per month. I don't like buying meat when we are over run with hogs and I prefer wild hog over most store bought meat anyway. I use .22LR, .357 Mag, .44 Mag, and .45 Colt for hogs, and the same minus the .22LR for deer (no rimfire allowed). All work great for me, and I have equal faith in all of them. To be fair, I tend to use the .357 for archery-type shots in terms of placement, and have been avoiding the shoulder on hogs just in case until a few months ago thinking it may not have adequate penetration. I shot a 250ish pound hog that a friend had wounded. Now, I would not regularly even consider this shot, but with a wounded and suffering animal, I made an exception. Anyway, the shot was taken with a Rossi 92 .357Mag with a 20" barrel, at a bit over 200 yds, broke both shoulders, and exited, dropping the hog in it's tracks. Before this, I used to see the .44 and .45 as more likely to break heavy bones and exit, and still feel the same way just due to the size and weight of the projectiles, but am thinking I have been selling the .357 short for many years. I almost hate to say it, but I would be tempted to say find a gun that just feels good to you in either caliber, and use it. And when you find one that feels really good to you in the other caliber, buy it too! You'll end up with both in the long run, and both are great calibers, so the choice isn't really which one to get, but rather which one to get first.

[vmathias]

I know you said mostly deer, but this may help you anyway, even though most of my experience is with hogs. I have taken a lot more hogs than deer, but never kept notes as to numbers of each. Mostly, this is due to having a set season and bag limit for deer, while hogs there are no closed seasons, bag limits, or weapons limitations to speak of here. Anyway, consider it as 1-4 deer per year for me and at least one hog per month. I don't like buying meat when we are over run with hogs and I prefer wild hog over most store bought meat anyway. I use .22LR, .357 Mag, .44 Mag, and .45 Colt for hogs, and the same minus the .22LR for deer (no rimfire allowed). All work great for me, and I have equal faith in all of them. To be fair, I tend to use the .357 for archery-type shots in terms of placement, and have been avoiding the shoulder on hogs just in case until a few months ago thinking it may not have adequate penetration. I shot a 250ish pound hog that a friend had wounded. Now, I would not regularly even consider this shot, but with a wounded and suffering animal, I made an exception. Anyway, the shot was taken with a Rossi 92 .357Mag with a 20" barrel, at a bit over 200 yds, broke both shoulders, and exited, dropping the hog in it's tracks. Before this, I used to see the .44 and .45 as more likely to break heavy bones and exit, and still feel the same way just due to the size and weight of the projectiles, but am thinking I have been selling the .357 short for many years. I almost hate to say it, but I would be tempted to say find a gun that just feels good to you in either caliber, and use it. And when you find one that feels really good to you in the other caliber, buy it too! You'll end up with both in the long run, and both are great calibers, so the choice isn't really which one to get, but rather which one to get first.

This shot was taken with a cast boolit?

[Lonegun1894]

Yes, Sir. 158gr SWCGC. I'd have to check my notes if it was the Lee 158 SWCGC or the Lyman 358156, but I get equal performance out of both so it probably doesn't matter. It was better performance than I was expecting. I was hoping to break one shoulder so we could catch up and finish the hog, but it did a lot more than I would have believed if I hadn't seen it.

[jmort]

Makes sense.

[Motor]

Its funny you mention that cause I am looking at the .41 as well. For some reason they come quite a bit cheaper in the Super Blackhawk than the 44 mag.

I have a Blackhawk in .41mag. I've never killed a deer with it but loaned it to a good friend who hunts deer with handguns and he fell in love with it.

This is off topic, sorry, but I hand load for my brother's .500 S&W If I was looking for a "hunting" handgun (and didn't mind the cost) this is where I'd look. This thing is so versatile it's unreal.

I load a 250gr Lee REAL muzzleloader boolit sized to .501" for his at around 1100f/s. Even this light load is effective on deer. At first I was a skeptic of the big Smith but I've seen it in action over the past 5 years or so and its a winner.

Motor

[Lonegun1894]

I forgot. For what it's worth, I don't think my bullet was going fast enough to really expand once it got to that hog, as there was no meat loss at all. So I think it was a matter of the lack of expansion allowed the bullet to pencil right through and break bones, instead of expanding and limiting penetration somewhat. I usually get full penetration on broadside shots anyway, but it was really unexpected at that range, and less meat loss. But I still try to keep my shots as close as possible, regardless of what I am hunting with.

[vmathias]

I forgot. For what it's worth, I don't think my bullet was going fast enough to really expand once it got to that hog, as there was no meat loss at all. So I think it was a matter of the lack of expansion allowed the bullet to pencil right through and break bones, instead of expanding and limiting penetration somewhat. I usually get full penetration on broadside shots anyway, but it was really unexpected at that range, and less meat loss. But I still try to keep my shots as close as possible, regardless of what I am hunting with.

Yeah, I dont see a 357 retaining much energy at 200 yards. Especially not enough to mushroom out a bullet.

[vmathias]

I have a Blackhawk in .41mag. I've never killed a deer with it but loaned it to a good friend who hunts deer with handguns and he fell in love with it.

This is off topic, sorry, but I hand load for my brother's .500 S&W If I was looking for a "hunting" handgun (and didn't mind the cost) this is where I'd look. This thing is so versatile it's unreal.

I load a 250gr Lee REAL muzzleloader boolit sized to .501" for his at around 1100f/s. Even this light load is effective on deer. At first I was a skeptic of the big Smith but I've seen it in action over the past 5 years or so and its a winner.

Motor

They are about $300.00 over my budget with two kids in college. haha.

[fastdadio]

In the words of one of our most honored mentors. "big boolits make big holes and leave lots of blood" Need we say more?

[45 2.1]

In the words of one of our most honored mentors. "big boolits make big holes and leave lots of blood" Need we say more?

That guy shoots bone...... You shoot a fat deer in a softer part and that fat can plug both in and out holes allowing it to run a LONG ways...... usually beyond being able to find it. BTDT.... twice.... and will never use a solid on a deer again.

[Doggonekid]

I have only shot 2 deer with handguns. 1st one with a .41 mag and 2nd with a .44mag. Both deer are just as dead. Visually the .44 mag hit a lot harder. This year I am doing the same thing as .44man, I'm going to carry .475 Linebaugh with a 400 gr cast boolit.

I think most people that diff the .41 mag don't own one. I really love mine. To answer the question .357 mag or .44 mag. I vote .44 mag.

[44man]

Not in some calibers! I use very hard WLN in the .44 and a hard WFN in the .475, both work but when I started with the .44 I used 240 XTP's and recovered all three from the rib cages, they all stopped and backtracking showed no blood trail at all. I was lucky to see them fall. 60 yard runs from all. Good internal damage BUT! I went to the 320 LBT and that junk stopped right quick. Massive blood trails and a 20 to 30 yard recovery. Some DRT.
Going to the .475 has 99.9% of deer on the ground before recoil is over.
Then I thought the .500 JRH would be as good, not to be with deer going 120 yards with no blood trails. Just making half the nose softer solved that with most deer instant drops. No way I would use a HP.
You must make energy work inside and still have the boolit exit without grinding meat to mush.
Even a real hard boolit in the .44 can be nasty. No HP's for me with it.129938This is a .44 with a HARD boolit, WLN. 129939Same hit with a .475 hard boolit. 129940Then a buck shot under the chin with the .475 hard boolit, exit through the ham, no meat damage. These are two calibers I would never use a HP or soft boolit in. The .44 can ruin more meat then the .475.
I lost no meat with the .500 JRH last season, butchered to the holes. 4 out of 5 dropped DRT and the last made 20 yards with a fire hose of a blood trail, just enough boolit work and no more.
Want a 50-50 HP in the .44, better have tracking shoes on. Knee pads help. Deer are my game and I figure I have 174 with revolvers, had to subtract some from archery and a couple with rifles. I do a necropsy on every one to see what went on with a boolit. Pink lungs from a poked hole or exploded meat has been a good teacher. I now know what each revolver will do.

[45 2.1]

Want a 50-50 HP in the .44, better have tracking shoes on.

Yeh.... for all of 10 yards...................... Seriously Jim, I tried it your way for two deer.... lost 'em both....never again. My hollow point design in the heart area...... not one loss, could've toss the revolver on them from the place hit with 44's. The problem you're having is the wrong choice of alloy and HP configuration.

[cbrick]

Yeh.... for all of 10 yards...................... Seriously Jim, I tried it your way for two deer.... lost 'em both....never again. My hollow point design in the heart area...... not one loss, could've toss the revolver on them from the place hit with 44's. The problem you're having is the wrong choice of alloy and HP configuration.

Yes and velocity. HP velocity needs to be matched with the alloy and HP configuration. Too slow and no penetration, the HP expands and stops forward movement. Too fast and the bullet comes apart with less than desirable results. Penetration comes from momentum which comes from bullet weight, loose 1/3 or more of the weight on contact because it came apart and you've lost a lot of momentum.

My preferred HP in the 44 mag is a HP cavity of .150" diameter at the mouth, cavity with 7 degree taper and extended .250" into the bullet with a rounded tip. This was worked out by Glen Fryxell, a devout HP cast bullet handgun hunter and I've never seen a reason to doubt it's effectiveness. My loading notes refer to it as "The Fryxell HP pin".

This leaves plenty of meat around the cavity but a large enough cavity to open up. The rounded tip goes a long way in keeping the nose on the bullet. Many Lyman pins have a flat pin that leaves a sharp cornered bottom to the cavity that aids in the nose breaking off.

The pigs I've shot with this HP all seem to agree with Glen.

Rick

[white eagle]

Yeh.... for all of 10 yards...................... Seriously Jim, I tried it your way for two deer.... lost 'em both....never again. My hollow point design in the heart area...... not one loss, could've toss the revolver on them from the place hit with 44's. The problem you're having is the wrong choice of alloy and HP configuration.

I agree
alloy and velocity are key with a hp
I use hp's for deer either a 250 Keith or a MP 431-640 design in ether 260 gr or 300 gr

[44man]

I have no problems with the .44 at all, never lost a deer. But I gave up super fast with it. No 1400 to 1500 fps. My fastest kills are with heavy boolits at around 1300 fps. I would not use a hard 240 at over 1400. The heavy, slower boolit ensures penetration while being slow enough for DWELL TIME inside.
Your problem was a light boolit too fast.
Now the .500 JRH gave me fits at 1350 fps with a 440 gr boolit. Too heavy and hard along with too fast. Softening a little of the nose slowed it in deer. I can not slow it because of accuracy loss and it does not like lighter boolits. But to HP it would be a disaster. The weight can't be stopped but I still want meat.
I have not shot at deer with my 45-70 BFR with hard boolits for a few years. 1630 fps makes a hole punch so I need to work with a softer nose. Babore's 50-50 HP destroyed a deer. TOO much.
Velocity can be an enemy.
I can't make the whole boolit softer and expect accuracy either. A softer nose cast will allow accuracy along with results on deer. My .45 Colt with a 335 gr at 1160 fps kills fine and fast and is why I do not like the .454. New can of worms to find the right boolit.
I am willing to bet you shot a light, hard boolit to max for the lost deer. paper punch!

[45 2.1]

Yes and velocity. HP velocity needs to be matched with the alloy and HP configuration. Too slow and no penetration, the HP expands and stops forward movement. Too fast and the bullet comes apart with less than desirable results. Penetration comes from momentum which comes from bullet weight, loose 1/3 or more of the weight on contact because it came apart and you've lost a lot of momentum. Rick

Not everything works like you and Glen say Rick. And momentum isn't the agency killing the animal either...... momentum carries the boolit thru to the other side and out. From what I've seen in print, not very many people understand what needs to happen to kill an animal. My hollow points are designed to blow the nose off to the base of the hollow point leaving a ragged blunt full caliber nose (which is bigger than most meplats) to continue on and out of the animal..... no problem with penetration there. 44man relies on blunt force trauma...a big meplat boolit hammering thru. A nice umbrella shaped expanded HP usually only happens at low velocity with cast or a jacketed bullet.

[45 2.1]

Babore's 50-50 HP destroyed a deer. TOO much.
Velocity can be an enemy.

Not understanding how it was meant to be used caused the problem. Shooting shoulders isn't it's intended use.


I am willing to bet you shot a light, hard boolit to max for the lost deer. paper punch!

You would be dead wrong on that....................................

[44man]

Get what works for you. I don't like to butt heads with 45 2.1 because he does make things work. Nothing is cut and dried with hunting, only what works. I might do different but are either of us wrong?

[jmort]

"I might do different but are either of us wrong?"

No

[44man]

[QUOTE=45 2.1;3127938]Not understanding how it was meant to be used caused the problem. Shooting shoulders isn't it's intended use.
I know but the angle of the deer was not easy to see so exit was the off shoulder. I shot behind the shoulder. A few degrees of a deers angle just can't be detected at range, maybe at 20 yards or so.
I am not good enough to predict exit on a deer 65 to 120 yards. I will never say I shoot the CNS every shot either unless the deer is 10'. I wish I could say my boolit placement is perfect but I can't. I refuse to go down that route.

[monge]

Shot my first deer with a 357mag 50 yards hollow point double lung deer did not flinch. I was so surprized that I did not get off another shot . My dad knocked it down with a 12 gauge slug as it ran by him 100yards away. When we dressed it we found two small holes in and out were the 357 passed though like a hot poker. No blood my Dad now passed told me to get rid of that gun! !

[birddog]

Either choice with the 357Mag or 44Mag would do what you want. It really is a preference that you will come to. I've had a 44Mag and gave it to the son-in-law. Presently own the 2 41Mag and a 480 Ruger, love em both
Charlie

[Motor]

Shot my first deer with a 357mag 50 yards hollow point double lung deer did not flinch. I was so surprized that I did not get off another shot . My dad knocked it down with a 12 gauge slug as it ran by him 100yards away. When we dressed it we found two small holes in and out were the 357 passed though like a hot poker. No blood my Dad now passed told me to get rid of that gun! !

A double lung shot with a bow or anything else is one of the best shots to kill a deer. I've double lunged them with a 150gr 30-06 and they went 100 yards. That is not unusual at all.

Blood trails don't kill a deer either. Most double lung hits don't leave much if any blood trail anyway. All the bleeding is internal. The deer's chest cavity fills with blood and it dies.

I shot a buck this past season at 30 yards with a 7.62x54R using a 170gr RN Jword. It didn't flinch either. I found it dead with no blood trail 65 yards away. I found this to be very normal.

Motor

[monge]

This is true motor but a larger cal at slower vol will kill faster. I have shot deer with a 44sp at 800fps with a solid boolit in the lungs and dropped them in 40yards with a lot of blood and to big holes!

[Motor]

Deer and most likely any other animal re-act differently when shot. I liver shot deer with a bow and watched them go back to feeding, then drop dead.

I've also lung shot them and had their legs melt out from under them. The point is they can and often do things that people don't expect. It's not like they think "Oh my God I've been shot" and lay down to die.

A deer can go 100 yards eaisly with no heart at all. Or just simply fall over dead. The only way to insure a stopping kill it to dissable the animal from moving. Most good shots, that is shots that don't damage meat are not that kind of shot and a head shot in my opinion is too risky.


I really don't know in what context you are speaking when you say " a larger cal at slower vol will kill faster" Maybe within a certain class firearm.


Nothing kills faster than something that delivers very high impact energy. Hydrostatic shock does as much or more damage than the bullet itself. I have a 22-6mm Ackly Improved. You shold see how velocity kills. Even with 75gr A-Max at 200 yards. I quit using it for deer because even nice double lung hits cause so much brusing because of hydrostatic shock that most of the meat in the front of the deer need to be thrown away.

Oh yeah, you should see how a "normal" loaded .500 S&W impacts a deer. Can you say shock and awe !!!

Motor

Sorry. I slid off topic. Again. :(

[M-Tecs]

I really don't know in what context you are speaking when you say " a larger cal at slower vol will kill faster" Maybe within a certain class firearm.


One school of thought is that HV bullets are not in the animal long enough so they don't kill as well.

Some discussion here http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?115334-Veral-at-LBT-s-ideas-on-hunting-bullets

[vmathias]

If I buy the 44 mag my buddy has the Lyman 240 grain cast. So I would be shooting the 240g between 1100-1300fps depending on what is most accurate slower or faster. Like I said before my shots would be 70 yards or less.

[vmathias]

Deer and most likely any other animal re-act differently when shot. I liver shot deer with a bow and watched them go back to feeding, then drop dead.

I've also lung shot them and had their legs melt out from under them. The point is they can and often do things that people don't expect. It's not like they think "Oh my God I've been shot" and lay down to die.

A deer can go 100 yards eaisly with no heart at all. Or just simply fall over dead. The only way to insure a stopping kill it to dissable the animal from moving. Most good shots, that is shots that don't damage meat are not that kind of shot and a head shot in my opinion is too risky.


I really don't know in what context you are speaking when you say " a larger cal at slower vol will kill faster" Maybe within a certain class firearm.


Nothing kills faster than something that delivers very high impact energy. Hydrostatic shock does as much or more damage than the bullet itself. I have a 22-6mm Ackly Improved. You shold see how velocity kills. Even with 75gr A-Max at 200 yards. I quit using it for deer because even nice double lung hits cause so much brusing because of hydrostatic shock that most of the meat in the front of the deer need to be thrown away.

Oh yeah, you should see how a "normal" loaded .500 S&W impacts a deer. Can you say shock and awe !!!

Motor

Sorry. I slid off topic. Again. :(

It kills me when I hear people say things like "a 243 is to small for deer". Hmm??? a hundred grain bullet traveling at 3000fps... Funny I have shot many with my trusty 243 and haven't had one yet go more than 30 yards. Most expired right in their tracks.

[Motor]

If I buy the 44 mag my buddy has the Lyman 240 grain cast. So I would be shooting the 240g between 1100-1300fps depending on what is most accurate slower or faster. Like I said before my shots would be 70 yards or less.

The 240 cast wil work good. You just need to get some good hardness feedback from people here that have used it to take deer. Even shot at 1100-1300f/s if it is too hard it will simply shoot through without expanding. I think you would want at least some expantion. It helps deliver the energy to the target and of course causes a larger wound.

Motor

[shoot-n-lead]

The 240 cast wil work good. You just need to get some good hardness feedback from people here that have used it to take deer. Even shot at 1100-1300f/s if it is too hard it will simply shoot through without expanding. I think you would want at least some expantion. It helps deliver the energy to the target and of course causes a larger wound.

Motor

It doesn't have to expand to work.

[vmathias]

The 240 cast wil work good. You just need to get some good hardness feedback from people here that have used it to take deer. Even shot at 1100-1300f/s if it is too hard it will simply shoot through without expanding. I think you would want at least some expantion. It helps deliver the energy to the target and of course causes a larger wound.

Motor

I pretty much just cast standard wheel weights. I dont water quench or heat treat. I will do extensive testing on water containers and soaked wood to see how they perform.

[Motor]

I pretty much just cast standard wheel weights. I dont water quench or heat treat. I will do extensive testing on water containers and soaked wood to see how they perform.

Sounds like a good plan. It's amazing how stout a hard cast can be. I have some Penn Bullets hard cast 210gr that I bought a long time ago before I started casting. They are 18bhn. I've shot concrete blocks with them at 90% max magnum loads from my 41 Blackhawk and found some of them in the rubble nearly 100% intact. I'm sure they would act like FMJs on deer.

Motor

[shoot-n-lead]

Sounds like a good plan. It's amazing how stout a hard cast can be. I have some Penn Bullets hard cast 210gr that I bought a long time ago before I started casting. They are 18bhn. I've shot concrete blocks with them at 90% max magnum loads from my 41 Blackhawk and found some of them in the rubble nearly 100% intact. I'm sure they would act like FMJs on deer.

Motor

They would NOT act like FMJ's...

Do you understand that meplat is the killing part of a cast bullet. They do not have to expand to work.

[vmathias]

Sounds like a good plan. It's amazing how stout a hard cast can be. I have some Penn Bullets hard cast 210gr that I bought a long time ago before I started casting. They are 18bhn. I've shot concrete blocks with them at 90% max magnum loads from my 41 Blackhawk and found some of them in the rubble nearly 100% intact. I'm sure they would act like FMJs on deer.

Motor

Yes I have noticed that they do harden up quite a bit over time. Like it was said before, A 44 mag expanding or not is making a pretty nasty wound channel. Shot placement is KEY. With a boolit like that I am aiming right on the front shoulder.

[Motor]

They would NOT act like FMJ's...

Do you understand that meplat is the killing part of a cast bullet. They do not have to expand to work.

Oh. I'm sorry I thought it was the wound and the loss of blood.:roll:

[shoot-n-lead]

Oh. I'm sorry I thought it was the wound and the loss of blood.:roll:

The meplat creates the wound channel and loss of blood. FMJ's do not have any wound channel to speak of...unlike a flatnosed cast bullet.

Here is a very good read on the effectiveness of the meplat on non-expanding bullets. This should help you understand the mechanism at play with cast hunting bullets.

http://www.ballisticstudies.com/Knowledgebase/The+Effects+Of+The+Meplat+On+Terminal+Ballistics.h tml

[vmathias]

They would NOT act like FMJ's...

Do you understand that meplat is the killing part of a cast bullet. They do not have to expand to work.

Meplat or not the deer would have a slim chance of survival with a 44 mag. The main difference would most likely be how far you had to track it. Fluid trauma would be there regardless but the meplat is def causing more damage.

[shoot-n-lead]

Meplat or not the deer would have a slim chance of survival with a 44 mag. The main difference would most likely be how far you had to track it. Fluid trauma would be there regardless but the meplat is def causing more damage.

Read that link...

The meplat multiplies the fluid damage over any ordinary FMJ bullet, thereby creating that large wound channel.

[waksupi]

Oh. I'm sorry I thought it was the wound and the loss of blood.:roll:

You need to understand how you are creating that wound. Meplate is of prime importance for hunting with cast.

[cbrick]

You need to understand how you are creating that wound. Meplate is of prime importance for hunting with cast.

Precisely!

Rick

[44man]

The situation here is it can be so thick, a deer is out of sight in one bound. If you are there after dark and turn a light on, you will not find your way out, like a fog bank! Then add the amount of tracks so one deer can't be tracked. Means blood on the ground is needed.
The WLN and Lee 310 will put down so much I can run a trail. (If I could still run!) The .44 just plain works.
But something many will not agree with is as distance gets farther and velocity has slowed, deer will go farther so one hit at 100+ yards will not leave blood trails as fast and will go farther but I still find blood good enough to find them.
I figure if I shot slower, closer deer might go farther too so I stay at around 1300 fps. Mine are actually 1316 fps. If I shot slower, I would be changing my alloy and might even move to a shallow HP.
Another problem crops up in that my heavy boolits can't be shot less then 1300 and hit anything so I would also have to use a lighter boolit. Then more work needs done and I hate to change what works to test more. A real hard, lighter boolit is just not going to do the same at 1100- fps or shot very fast.
Everything you change will alter your boolit performance and is why we can be far apart. Only if you exactly use what I do will you see the same. My best load with the Lee 310 is 21.5 gr of 296, Fed 150 primer. BHN is 22 average. No, I will not stick Unique behind that boolit.
If you try my way with a 240 or 250 gr, you can fail.
My 330 gr NEEDS 21 gr of 296 and a Fed 150 primer, shot a 1-5/16" group at 200 yards. I have showed what it does shot slow with Unique.130083Would you hunt with this? 130084Same boolit shot proper at 200 yards.
First you find accuracy, then work the alloy, etc for results on game. You like a 240 gr, fine, but you can't do the same unless you change something. It sure might mean a HP. Just make two holes and a blood trail. Save meat. Can a revolver ruin as much meat as a rifle? Better believe it.

[vmathias]

Read that link...

The meplat multiplies the fluid damage over any ordinary FMJ bullet, thereby creating that large wound channel.

Shoot-n-Lead... Thanks for the link, that was a very informative read. I should clarify my last statement. I am not trying to say it is ok to hunt with round nose or full metal jacket. I absolutely would never do so. I was merely trying to state that with a well placed shot at close ranges a 44 mag RN will kill a deer most of the time. It obviously is a poor choice. I have lost 2 deer (both in archery) over the years. I do realize it happens but when I lost the second deer just this past season I was ready to give it up. Both deer that I shot were very well placed shots just behind the shoulder and the recent one had a huge blood trail. Tracked that deer for 8 hours over the course of two days. Not trying to get off subject here but the morale is to be as humane as possible and to use the CORRECT tools of the trade. I have never used a cast Boolit for hunting and this was the main reason for my original question. Your link cleared a lot up for me. Thanks again!

[44man]

Meplat alone is not the Holy Grail. It can fail if shot wrong because of the pressure wave off the meplat that moves tissue out of the way in a secondary wound channel.
Moving from A WLN to an 82% meplat has had no change at all with killing power, maybe worse.
There is still a relationship to the velocity. Done that, seen that.

[SSGOldfart]

I pretty much just cast standard wheel weights. I dont water quench or heat treat. I will do extensive testing on water containers and soaked wood to see how they perform.
I think you just answered your own question,you also said"your pretty athletic guy" but remember things come up that we never plan for.. like your shoulder and the one point most have sidestepped here we don't really want to talk about it but AGE has to be a factor.
I've shot the 357 for over 50 years love the round my nick name was "soupcan" growing up,yep I started casting very young with what we had to use. but I've got a 44 in the safe too. I was planning to use it on elk!!! not really going to happen tied to a wheelchair now but that's a long story...again factor in AGE. I'd say go for both and do your own testing to find which fits your needs the best you can always sell the one your not happy with???????????????????

[44man]

No test media will equal the animal, not even close.
Sorry about you ssgoldfart, I know about AGE, I am 77. Can't hold still anymore. Just a few years since I could blow up a water bottle at 100 off hand. The downward slope is getting real slippery.
Trying to pass on knowledge to the younger guys is proving very hard.

[Lefty Red]

If I buy the 44 mag my buddy has the Lyman 240 grain cast. So I would be shooting the 240g between 1100-1300fps depending on what is most accurate slower or faster. Like I said before my shots would be 70 yards or less.

There you go! Problem solved. Now just ask which barrel length for your pistol for another 10 page thread! :)

Seriously, I like the 357 in a rifle. Or a T/C, that 10-12" barrel is an awesome platform for the 357 Magnum. But the 44 in a SBH is a great one too. I like a longer barrel, say the 10" model, but killed a few deer with my 44 special BH and it has a 4.75"ish barrel. But shots with it was from 25-75 yards. Load was a heavy dose of 2400 and a 180 grain XTP. Not my first choice for load, but it was what I had in it at the time. I shot just behind shoulder and got the lungs and top of or part of the heart each time. Five or six steps then they go down. In fact, I have killed more deer with the 44 caliber than the 35 caliber. I find that the 44 has a better off the shelf selection of bullets and brass and powders. Seems like I can use allot different powders in my 44s and they still work just as well. I find the 357 or 41 a bit more finicky. And with my hit or miss on powder selection, I just go boring and use the 44. Now what do I think it the all time killer of deer and what would I have if I made the money my ex and her lawyer think I make, then the 41 magnum! Loaded with Hornady or Sierra HP at 170-195 grain for best (IMHO) trajectory and velocity for deer out to 100 yards.

I also like the roll of the 44 over the snap of the 357.

Sorry to hear about the shoulder, rotor cuff. Mine is jacked up too, so handguns only for hunting and shooting mostly. Not wanting to get surgery, so some Aleeve twice a day and go on. Some days good, some bad.

Jerry

[jhalcott]

IF (big IF) you can keep from shooting that Booner buck at 125+ that suddenly pops up in front of you, the 357 will do fine. When the deer is standing at an awkward angle, or a bit farther than you are used to is when the 44 comes into its own.

[vmathias]

No test media will equal the animal, not even close.
Sorry about you ssgoldfart, I know about AGE, I am 77. Can't hold still anymore. Just a few years since I could blow up a water bottle at 100 off hand. The downward slope is getting real slippery.
Trying to pass on knowledge to the younger guys is proving very hard.

Yes I do understand this, I will use different tests just to set a guideline. I do like water testing as I feel this gives a rough guideline of hardness. I do want the Boolit to mushroom somewhat. More surface equals bigger wound channel.

[vmathias]

There you go! Problem solved. Now just ask which barrel length for your pistol for another 10 page thread! :)

Seriously, I like the 357 in a rifle. Or a T/C, that 10-12" barrel is an awesome platform for the 357 Magnum. But the 44 in a SBH is a great one too. I like a longer barrel, say the 10" model, but killed a few deer with my 44 special BH and it has a 4.75"ish barrel. But shots with it was from 25-75 yards. Load was a heavy dose of 2400 and a 180 grain XTP. Not my first choice for load, but it was what I had in it at the time. I shot just behind shoulder and got the lungs and top of or part of the heart each time. Five or six steps then they go down. In fact, I have killed more deer with the 44 caliber than the 35 caliber. I find that the 44 has a better off the shelf selection of bullets and brass and powders. Seems like I can use allot different powders in my 44s and they still work just as well. I find the 357 or 41 a bit more finicky. And with my hit or miss on powder selection, I just go boring and use the 44. Now what do I think it the all time killer of deer and what would I have if I made the money my ex and her lawyer think I make, then the 41 magnum! Loaded with Hornady or Sierra HP at 170-195 grain for best (IMHO) trajectory and velocity for deer out to 100 yards.


I also like the roll of the 44 over the snap of the 357.

Sorry to hear about the shoulder, rotor cuff. Mine is jacked up too, so handguns only for hunting and shooting mostly. Not wanting to get surgery, so some Aleeve twice a day and go on. Some days good, some bad.

Jerry

I am looking at the Super black hawk in the 5.5" barrel. Where I hunt in PA I dont get more than 60 yards tops. You are correct. That will probably open up a whole new can of worms. Lol.

[shoot-n-lead]

Meplat alone is not the Holy Grail. It can fail if shot wrong because of the pressure wave off the meplat that moves tissue out of the way in a secondary wound channel.
Moving from A WLN to an 82% meplat has had no change at all with killing power, maybe worse.
There is still a relationship to the velocity. Done that, seen that.

I agree with what you are saying...but the fundamentals still apply...the meplat is the most significant part of a cast hunting bullet...it is what makes it a hunting bullet.

[jeff223]

got to love threads like this one:holysheep

[44man]

On my last few days at work before I retired I had a tendon snap off my right shoulder and go down in my bicep. I told the boss I will work with my left arm and refused to go to the quack. It got better and I still shot my heavy bows.
Just before last deer season I tripped on junk in my barn, landed on my left forearm, jammed my shoulder bad, getting better but I could not lift my arm at the time.
Due to the work we did at the airline, torn rotator cuffs were common and every single person that had surgery was not able to work and lost their jobs. Both my daughters included. The quacks shave bone and wire tendons, Kim had wires poke out of her bicep. More surgery. She will never be right. I refuse to let them touch me.
Shoulders were made to hold gun stocks and lift bows and revolvers. Quacks will take that away.
Knees are the same, had my share of injuries but it went away, all those I know that had surgery are still not right. Some had total knee replacements after surgery messed them up and they can't kneel down at all.
There are times you need a doc but the less you do, the better off you are. Watch them, they are quick to force pills on you that will ruin you.
They tried to give me pills for high cholesterol but my good was twice as high as the bad. I love bacon and 1/2# at a time is nothing, eat only real butter, sour cream, whipped cream and more cheese in a day then some eat in a year. I love smoked meat and fish. Big steaks and a venison steak, rare, Slop with bacon fat or butter.
I hate going out to eat and get two strips of bacon on my plate. I don't want it to break when I bite it either. I want it thick and chewy.
A little off topic that I am good at but if you want to shoot all your life, take advice from an old codger. Enjoy every minute and eat what you want.
My friend takes 20 pills at a time and he has been in the hospital about 50 times since I have known him. I sit here with no pain anywhere and BIG revolvers do not bother me.
Mr Arthur-itis has not been here either.
Get a sweet, loving dog and hug her all the time.130224This is mine. She could eat a whole deer at one time! :bigsmyl2:

[44man]

I agree with what you are saying...but the fundamentals still apply...the meplat is the most significant part of a cast hunting bullet...it is what makes it a hunting bullet.
It sure is and I can't deny that. Yet it might need to expand some too.

[Char-Gar]

Ok, before I start I know the 357 vs. 44 mag has been debated to death. I am asking this question as I want to pick up a new Ruger Super Blackhawk in either on of the calibers. I plan on using this solely for whitetail/ coyote hunting. I do know the 357 with the right loads in plenty ample for the above game out to 70 yards. I would like to hear opinions from actual users of said calibers and success they have had for game. Obviously being on this site i would like info of Boolits used for said game. Info is greatly appreciated.

"A good big man, will beat a good little man every time."

[SSGOldfart]

got to love threads like this one:holysheep

yes Sir lots of years talking in this one might even learn something if it's studied alittle

[vmathias]

On my last few days at work before I retired I had a tendon snap off my right shoulder and go down in my bicep. I told the boss I will work with my left arm and refused to go to the quack. It got better and I still shot my heavy bows.
Just before last deer season I tripped on junk in my barn, landed on my left forearm, jammed my shoulder bad, getting better but I could not lift my arm at the time.
Due to the work we did at the airline, torn rotator cuffs were common and every single person that had surgery was not able to work and lost their jobs. Both my daughters included. The quacks shave bone and wire tendons, Kim had wires poke out of her bicep. More surgery. She will never be right. I refuse to let them touch me.
Shoulders were made to hold gun stocks and lift bows and revolvers. Quacks will take that away.
Knees are the same, had my share of injuries but it went away, all those I know that had surgery are still not right. Some had total knee replacements after surgery messed them up and they can't kneel down at all.
There are times you need a doc but the less you do, the better off you are. Watch them, they are quick to force pills on you that will ruin you.
They tried to give me pills for high cholesterol but my good was twice as high as the bad. I love bacon and 1/2# at a time is nothing, eat only real butter, sour cream, whipped cream and more cheese in a day then some eat in a year. I love smoked meat and fish. Big steaks and a venison steak, rare, Slop with bacon fat or butter.
I hate going out to eat and get two strips of bacon on my plate. I don't want it to break when I bite it either. I want it thick and chewy.
A little off topic that I am good at but if you want to shoot all your life, take advice from an old codger. Enjoy every minute and eat what you want.
My friend takes 20 pills at a time and he has been in the hospital about 50 times since I have known him. I sit here with no pain anywhere and BIG revolvers do not bother me.
Mr Arthur-itis has not been here either.
Get a sweet, loving dog and hug her all the time.130224This is mine. She could eat a whole deer at one time! :bigsmyl2:

44 Man, I hear what you are saying, I absolutely did not want surgery. I went to Physical Therapy for 4 months trying to get my shoulder better. With the seriousness of tears I did have my shoulder would have never healed. My rotatory was torn clean off the socket as well as another tendon being completely shredded. I am an active person and at 43 years old I still lift weights 4-5 days a week. If not for the surgery I would have had to give all that up. I wasn't ready to as I feel I still have another 10-15 years of lifting in me. All I can hope for now is that the doctors did the job right the first time. :-).

[vmathias]

"A good big man, will beat a good little man every time."

My question wasnt really meant to ask what caliber is more effective. A 44mag is bigger in diameter and will obviously make the bigger wound channel. My question was more directed towards experiences people had with each caliber. There is a lot of misinformation on the web. Some say you absolutely should not use a 357 mag. Others say that it is very effective. I wanted actual documented uses with each caliber and how they performed with cast Boolits.

[Char-Gar]

My question wasnt really meant to ask what caliber is more effective. A 44mag is bigger in diameter and will obviously make the bigger wound channel. My question was more directed towards experiences people had with each caliber. There is a lot of misinformation on the web. Some say you absolutely should not use a 357 mag. Others say that it is very effective. I wanted actual documented uses with each caliber and how they performed with cast Boolits.

I understood and answered your question, from experience with cast bullets. I have never shot a deer with a handgun with anything but cast bullets. I would never choose a 357 Magnum for such use, if a 44 Magnum was available to me. I have no documents to prove that, just some dead deer, long gone and eaten.

I have owned and currently own many revolvers in those calibers and as well as most others. I have used those two calibers and others to kill deer. Anything I say or post is not theory, or something I have read, but personal experience over the last half century.

[vmathias]

I understood and answered your question, from experience with cast bullets. I have never shot a deer with a handgun with anything but cast bullets. I would never choose a 357 Magnum for such use, if a 44 Magnum was available to me. I have no documents to prove that, just some dead deer, long gone and eaten.

I have owned and currently own many revolvers in those calibers and as well as most others. I have used those two calibers and others to kill deer. Anything I say or post is not theory, or something I have read, but personal experience over the last half century.

Your input is greatly appreciated.

[jmort]

"The Hunter/Shooter that says a properly loaded .357 Magnum is not a viable hunting
cartridge for medium game is either uninformed or has never used one...JCG"

"I can only hope that I have cleared the air concerning the use of the .357 Magnum on
medium game. There are other considerations like controllability. If you can't shoot well,
you can't hit well! Even with a full power heavy cast
bullet loads, the .357 Magnum's recoil can be controlled well. Is it better than larger
caliber? Maybe and maybe not! Again the controllability factor comes into play! Is it
capable of use on wild hogs and deer? Absolutely!
James C Gates - Dixie Slugs "

Now we know for sure that Mr. Gates has been there and done that. More so that most. Lot of hot air and blather here in this thread.

[shoot-n-lead]

It sure is and I can't deny that. Yet it might need to expand some too.

There are exceptions to everything...however, as a general rule (meaning the vast majority of the time) cast bullets WILL kill reliably and acceptably quick, whether it expands or not. This has been proven over the last 100+ years. It is possible to make anything complex...but it is not necessary.

[44man]

"The Hunter/Shooter that says a properly loaded .357 Magnum is not a viable hunting
cartridge for medium game is either uninformed or has never used one...JCG"

"I can only hope that I have cleared the air concerning the use of the .357 Magnum on
medium game. There are other considerations like controllability. If you can't shoot well,
you can't hit well! Even with a full power heavy cast
bullet loads, the .357 Magnum's recoil can be controlled well. Is it better than larger
caliber? Maybe and maybe not! Again the controllability factor comes into play! Is it
capable of use on wild hogs and deer? Absolutely!
James C Gates - Dixie Slugs "

Now we know for sure that Mr. Gates has been there and done that. More so that most. Lot of hot air and blather here in this thread.
I know Jim and he knows boolits and does the work. He understands the boolit. Yet I will choose the .44 first. I know the .44. I do not understand the .357 because I gave it up long ago.
Never said it does not work but there is better. I now use better then the .44 but can't say anything bad about a .44. I can't hold my breath long enough to tell you a .357 is top dog. It takes more expertise to use then most have.
I love the "placement" thing best of all. Most can't hit a litter bottle of water at 50 yards let alone a deer with buck fever.
Just read about a homeowner in Texas where two creeps broke in. The owner grabbed his gun and a gunfight ensued. The house was shot up, windows and door frames but nobody was hit. Average shooter, don't try it here, you need a meat wagon.
Some here can shoot but some have one or two deer and know all there is to know. I call it luck.
Some say a .22 will kill deer, true but look at this.130261I found a fully expanded .22 bullet in the neck of this deer. Just broke the skin and stuck right there. Turning green around it.
Use enough gun, don't hunt with a toy.

[LAH]

Shoulders were made to hold gun stocks and lift bows and revolvers. Quacks will take that away.
Knees are the same, had my share of injuries but it went away, all those I know that had surgery are still not right. Some had total knee replacements after surgery messed them up and they can't kneel down at all.

My wife worked the O.R. as a R.N. for about 40 years & she will disagree I know. A lot depends on the Dr. & a lot on the patient. I'm at the age many of my friends have new knees & shoulders & I've seen very, very few failures.

I will say I passed on a surgery for a torn bicep. We had a huge oak on the ground & I was cutting the butt log. The log had to be under cut as the saw was binding. I stuck the Stihl 066 Mag under the log but not far enough as the tip hit first at close to 10,000 rpms with a full chisel chain. When the saw kicked it tore my bicep on my right arm. Those who have done it knows how it feels. I finished the day only because I could hold the saw with my left hand. Wife told the surgeon who said he could probably fix it if I came within 4 days which I didn't.

But as for shoulders & knees I wouldn't hesitate to have those done at least not with the Doctors I know.

[Char-Gar]

There are days I marvel that some subjects, topics, questions are still around after generations have asked and answered the same questions. The 357 Mag. vs. 44 Mag is one such question.

The 357 Magnum is a very good all around round for the camper, brush bum, cowboy, law officers and the like. It will do 99.5 percent of what we want a handgun to do and can be pressed into service against deer and similar sized animals. But when it reaches flesh and blood above 150 -200 pounds, it starts to punch over it's weight class. With the high end velocity 125 grain JHP loads it is as close to a death ray against mean humans as we are likely to have with current technology.

A 44 Magnum properly loaded for the required task will do everything the 357 will do, plus some things it won't. It will kill more reliably with less than perfect shot placement on deer sized game and still be in their punching on larger game when the 357 has rolled snake eyes.

Both are very fine revolver rounds, but really are not comparable when it comes to hunting animals larger than small game. This is one of the things, like water runs down hill, that should not still be in debate. The 357 Mag, came out in 1935 (I think) and the 44 Magnum in 1955 (again I think). That gives us 60 years of experience with them both and the issue has been long since settled in the minds of those who have used them both in the field.

I can't imagine anybody with actual experience advocating the use of the smaller over the larger for deer size game. I am aware than in this cyberspace thing folks stake out positions for all kinds of reasons and cling to them like flotsam from the Titanic. But really now, does anybody, without some kind of agenda, think and recommend the 357 Magnum is comparable to the 44 Magnum for deer and larger game?

For the record, jacketed bullets that actually expand for handgun rounds are fairly new to the scene. The first ones came along in the 60's and it took a decade or so before they figured out how to make them work. Before that we all used cast bullets of the SWC style. Many of us still do.

[45 2.1]

It astounds me that people always go to the "bigger is better" route. It is also true that your choice is between an adequate (if you can shoot well under pressure) and a touted "it can blow your head clean off" caliber. Bigger is better ???? then lets end the debate and go with the 500 S&W Mag. I've got a friend that hunts with one.... standing double action shots..... proper placement and clean kills at normal woods distances (30 yards and 45 yards) that I've witnessed. Did it kill any faster than a 357 Mag (or you pick something)...... No, it didn't. I've killed them with a 357 in less traveled distance. Hit properly in the right place they all basically die in the same amount of time. The main part of the equation is the shooter and his ability to place a boolit suitable for the game/power level used to kill that game cleanly............. That is the difference.

[jmort]

"It astounds me that people always go to the "bigger is better" route."

Completely agree. Dead is dead, enough is enough. As noted, any less than a .500 S&W is not enough, right? The .44 mag is great, but just because it is great, does not mean it eclipses the .357 into oblivion. Given the choice of following advice between James Gates and ...well, I would listen to James Gates.

[vmathias]

It astounds me that people always go to the "bigger is better" route. It is also true that your choice is between an adequate (if you can shoot well under pressure) and a touted "it can blow your head clean off" caliber. Bigger is better ???? then lets end the debate and go with the 500 S&W Mag. I've got a friend that hunts with one.... standing double action shots..... proper placement and clean kills at normal woods distances (30 yards and 45 yards) that I've witnessed. Did it kill any faster than a 357 Mag (or you pick something)...... No, it didn't. I've killed them with a 357 in less traveled distance. Hit properly in the right place they all basically die in the same amount of time. The main part of the equation is the shooter and his ability to place a boolit suitable for the game/power level used to kill that game cleanly............. That is the difference.

I have been in some pretty debated conversations about caliber size and energy. As I stated in a previous post caliber size doesnt always matter. A guy I work with uses a 30-06 every year. He is one of the best marksman I have ever seen. Every year he shoots his deer with his 30-06. Every year he bitches because he ends up tracking them for hundreds of yards. He uses Remington cor lokts 180g. I use Remington Cor Lokt 100g for my 243. I am yet to track a deer Long shots or short more than 30 yards. Now there could be many arguments for shot placement etc... But as he states many of his shots are right were he wanted them, behind the shoulder. I think it comes down to the will to live in the animal. Every animal is different in that respect. Many may argue but I strongly believe this to be true.

[45 2.1]

I think it comes down to the will to live in the animal. Every animal is different in that respect. Many may argue but I strongly believe this to be true.

That is true, but it is also true that mans bullet was meant for bigger game. Had he have chosen a boolit that would open easier... and at less velocity (a 30-30 150 gr. or 170 gr. jacketed loaded to 2,400 fps) he would not be tracking his deer very far at all. The energy (whatever you want to call it) needs to be delivered inside the animal (not just a pass thru), not in the hillside beyond. That is what 44man refers to as dwell time, important in smaller/thinner game and less so as the game is heavier/thicker. One point that you need to realize is what the boolit is meant to do (whether SWC/LBTWFN solid or hollow point) and where the animal needs to be shot with it. That knowledge will ensure success if you do your part.

[vmathias]

That is true, but it is also true that mans bullet was meant for bigger game. Had he have chosen a boolit that would open easier... and at less velocity (a 30-30 150 gr. or 170 gr. jacketed loaded to 2,400 fps) he would not be tracking his deer very far at all. The energy (whatever you want to call it) needs to be delivered inside the animal (not just a pass thru), not in the hillside beyond. That is what 44man refers to as dwell time, important in smaller/thinner game and less so as the game is heavier/thicker. One point that you need to realize is what the boolit is meant to do (whether SWC/LBTWFN solid or hollow point) and where the animal needs to be shot with it. That knowledge will ensure success if you do your part.

Very true. I believe a lot of hunters especially the ones that hunt multiple game animals Deer, Bear etc have the one size fits all mentality when they purchase ammunition. With that being said Pennsylvania whitetail can get VERY big. A recent kill this year was a whitetail harvested 10 miles from my home. The behemoth dressed out at 234lbs. Many recorded tipping the scale at 300lbs plus.

[44man]

Seen the same in PA when a guy shot a small buck 6 times with a 30-06 and 180 gr Silvertips. Snow let him track and I helped him drag it. I could cover the 6 holes behind the shoulder with my hand. Just the wrong bullet! Seen a small doe hit 11 times badly with 12 ga slugs before she gave it up.
I have shot 3 doe over 200# and seen a few Ohio bucks that dressed at 420#. Both were 18 points.
A neighbor loses half his deer with a .308 and my friend has deer go 4X farther with his .270 then mine from a .44. He is an expert shot and places shots perfect or he does not shoot. I find him by the blood trail and ask him how the hell did the little thing go that far? The tank was empty long ago!

[rking22]

"The tank was empty long ago! "

Last year I clipped a sappling with a 50 RB. eflected enough to hit the doe in the neck. It must have nicked the artery, as there was no blood trail for almost 100 yards, then the artery burst and there was blood every 5 or 6 feet. I was on my farm and trailed the deer into a bean field after dark. The blood stopped, I circled for quite a while looking for the blood trail. Finally decided to go back to the house for a bigger light and a son to help. As I walked back toward the house, I saw the deer in the bean field. She was over 60 yards from where he blood stopped and there was NO blood where she fell. She had been completely bled out and still covered over 60 yards! When I field dressed her there was hardly any blood inside. Amazing that she could cover that distance with basically no blood supply. I do not think deer are especially hard to kill, but they can be very tenacious once "dead". I like big holes and 2 holes per bullet please.

[waksupi]

Very true. I believe a lot of hunters especially the ones that hunt multiple game animals Deer, Bear etc have the one size fits all mentality when they purchase ammunition. With that being said Pennsylvania whitetail can get VERY big. A recent kill this year was a whitetail harvested 10 miles from my home. The behemoth dressed out at 234lbs. Many recorded tipping the scale at 300lbs plus.

That is true. I use pretty much the same boolit weight for deer, bear, elk, and bison. Kills them all deader than hell, as long as they are inserted correctly. Can't remember any of them going more than 30 yards, either.

[Digital Dan]

Watching this debate...have to smile, best of luck settling the split of fine hairs. Having offed over 100 hogs in the wild with CB shorts, 98%+ with one shot, I'm left to wonder what would be possible with a .357. Or pretty much anything else.

Carry on.

[vmathias]

Watching this debate...have to smile, best of luck settling the split of fine hairs. Having offed over 100 hogs in the wild with CB shorts, 98%+ with one shot, I'm left to wonder what would be possible with a .357. Or pretty much anything else.

Carry on.

What caliber are you using on hogs?

[LAH]

What caliber are you using on hogs?

He said: CB shorts. Something like this only probably a solid. Some call it barn yard medicine. http://www.cci-ammunition.com/products/detail.aspx?use=3&loadNo=0028

[44man]

What caliber are you using on hogs?
I wonder too??? Are they .22 CB's with only the primer with no powder? I assure you they will not penetrate a boar skull. A Pellet rifle is more deadly. The CB is like a BB from a Red Ryder.
CB shorts might have a few flakes of powder. You are looking at a about an 18 gr bullet at around 350 fps. Might bust a pig eyeball but would stop in it.
I have shot thousands for fun and a starling is a tough bird for them. I want to be the first to say a BB gun is good enough for deer and elk.

[historicfirearms]

Seen the same in PA when a guy shot a small buck 6 times with a 30-06 and 180 gr Silvertips. Snow let him track and I helped him drag it. I could cover the 6 holes behind the shoulder with my hand. Just the wrong bullet! Seen a small doe hit 11 times badly with 12 ga slugs before she gave it up.
I have shot 3 doe over 200# and seen a few Ohio bucks that dressed at 420#. Both were 18 points.
A neighbor loses half his deer with a .308 and my friend has deer go 4X farther with his .270 then mine from a .44. He is an expert shot and places shots perfect or he does not shoot. I find him by the blood trail and ask him how the hell did the little thing go that far? The tank was empty long ago!
Your neighbor with the 308 is a bad rifleman if he loses half the deer he shoots. If he hunted with your 44, I wonder what his success rate would be.

[44man]

Your neighbor with the 308 is a bad rifleman if he loses half the deer he shoots. If he hunted with your 44, I wonder what his success rate would be.
Zero of course. Yes it takes "placement" but also the right bullet and he does not listen.

[Omega]

Your neighbor with the 308 is a bad rifleman if he loses half the deer he shoots. If he hunted with your 44, I wonder what his success rate would be.
I have hunted with .270 for the last 30 years or so and have never lost one. In the last 5 years or so I started using a .308 as well and they too don't go far with that one either.


Zero of course. Yes it takes "placement" but also the right bullet and he does not listen.
Placement and an expanding bullet will drop them every time, If you don't put it in a vital area there is a good likelihood it will run far; it may succumb but you may not know where. I just acquired a SBH in .44 for an area on my land that is just right for a short barrel and figured 7" was short enough. I do have an AR in 300Blk w/10.5" barrel which will be put to use there as well but I plan on using cast only in that area so may go subsonic with the 300Blk. I have hunted with many hunters in public areas and it amazed me the number of shots I heard them take at deer. I loose quite a bit of meat with my one shot in .270, I can't imagine what's left after so many shots.

[Digital Dan]

I wonder too??? Are they .22 CB's with only the primer with no powder? I assure you they will not penetrate a boar skull. A Pellet rifle is more deadly. The CB is like a BB from a Red Ryder.
CB shorts might have a few flakes of powder. You are looking at a about an 18 gr bullet at around 350 fps. Might bust a pig eyeball but would stop in it.
I have shot thousands for fun and a starling is a tough bird for them. I want to be the first to say a BB gun is good enough for deer and elk.

Here ya go, grab a clue:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/pig%20pen/DSCN2968_zpse097a38d.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/muddler/media/pig%20pen/DSCN2968_zpse097a38d.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/pig%20pen/Tidbit003_zpsfbbcc745.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/muddler/media/pig%20pen/Tidbit003_zpsfbbcc745.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/pig%20pen/DSCN0550_zps4461c968.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/muddler/media/pig%20pen/DSCN0550_zps4461c968.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/pig%20pen/DSCN3596_zps474ade2b.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/muddler/media/pig%20pen/DSCN3596_zps474ade2b.jpg.html)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/pig%20pen/EarAche2_zpsb9dae647.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/muddler/media/pig%20pen/EarAche2_zpsb9dae647.jpg.html)

http://www.cci-ammunition.com/products/detail.aspx?use=1&loadNo=0026

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/Guns/target1_zps0ff4e212.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/muddler/media/Guns/target1_zps0ff4e212.jpg.html)

[Lonegun1894]

Now THAT's the way to take hogs, Digital Dan! Way to go. People question my sanity when I go after them with a .22LR, so I thank you for making me look more normal. :)

[Digital Dan]

You are welcome sir. I admit to having used the LR myself in the form of a 10/22 and CCI SV on three occasions. It works as well but is a bit noisy.

I'm not afraid of voices in my head.

DD

[historicfirearms]

Awesome job with the CBs digital dan! In my younger days we were dirt poor. Just to survive, we had to kill deer with our 22s, and never more than one shot to the head as that was expensive ammo to be wasting. My dad and I probably killed a hundred deer that way. I am not advocating shooting deer with a 22, I wouldn't do it again unless I had to in order to survive, just saying it can be done. If you lose a deer with a 357, 44, or bow and arrow, its your own fault and shame on you.

[cbrick]

Probably as many deer killed each year with 22 rf as anything else. Why? Because it is the caliber of choice of poachers. It is quieter than any center fire and many rifles can be had on the cheap, if caught they will confiscate your rifle so . . .

Poaching and 22 rf for deer are both profoundly wrong of course but it does prove that 22 rf will certainly kill deer.

Rick

[jeff223]

Dan I like your Contender rifle.
I have been thinking about a rifle barrel and stock set for one of my Contenders

[44man]

OK, you changed my mind! I would not expect that. I see they are CCI's and I don't know that round. Stuff I shot was very bad with soft copper cases that needed pried out. BB caps the worst.

[Digital Dan]

Differentiate between CB/BB Caps and CB Shorts. They are different pots of poison.

I would not not advocate such things for large game myself, but in the course if participation in a state run feral hog erradication program I am restricted to RF ammo. It works.

[gtgeorge]

Hi Dan, How close were you to the hogs and were they being baited in? My experience using a 22 pistol to finish a 180# sow was point blank and almost got me shot. Bullet hit the skull and turned coming back at me but did not come out. That was with a LR solid. Never saw a pig holding still enough hunting them to shoot for the head with a 22 RF. Watching videos it seems it can be done over bait though.

[truckjohn]

Generally, you gotta be pretty close when you bean them with a short... Then - you gotta know what you are doing and pick your shots carefully to put it in at the right angle - more or less 90 degrees to the skull will easily do the trick... parallel ends up bouncing it right off.... sticking one behind the shoulder is a gut-shot and ends up with a lost animal...

On the subject of Starlings... I was out shooting them the other weekend with CCI "Quiet 22's" - 40 grain LRN at 710 FPS... Had no issues what-so-ever making holes through them - even at 50 yards...

But... On the subject of the OP... Why everybody knows that you GOTTA have enough gun... and a 44-mag is HARDLY enough gun for mosquitoes and sparrows, much less ground hogs... I would suggest nothing smaller than a full house 45/70 to start with on Ground hogs - and then move up to "Bigger" stuff like the 577 Peabody or a 500 Jefferys for deer size game - for does.... I would move up to 50 BMG or 20mm for Buck hunting - in the pistol at least....

;)

[Digital Dan]

They aren't baited in the main, still hunting is the game. Cover is very close here in the swamps. Typical shots run 10-25 yards. Given patience they will pose for the shot, bu there have been many times I did not shoot. Haven't lost one yet.

[truckjohn]

Your neighbor with the 308 is a bad rifleman if he loses half the deer he shoots. If he hunted with your 44, I wonder what his success rate would be.

LOL, no better.... I have friends and family who do things like that.... For example - "High lung" shots can end up with run off animals... I have helped track several high-lung shot deer that didn't really go that far, but were hard to find because all the blood ended up *Inside* - because the holes were so high up... We found the deer - 3 hours later... Still alive.... He put a "Kill shot" right into the same hole as the first one went.... Deer gets up and runs off again.... I am thinking - Hey, Man - the first one went there and it's still alive... Why would you put ANOTHER one into the same hole? Shoot a little lower this time....

*sigh*

[M-Tecs]

LOL, no better.... I have friends and family who do things like that.... For example - "High lung" shots can end up with run off animals... I have helped track several high-lung shot deer that didn't really go that far, but were hard to find because all the blood ended up *Inside* - because the holes were so high up... We found the deer - 3 hours later... Still alive.... He put a "Kill shot" right into the same hole as the first one went.... Deer gets up and runs off again.... I am thinking - Hey, Man - the first one went there and it's still alive... Why would you put ANOTHER one into the same hole? Shoot a little lower this time....

*sigh*

I agree 100%. It is surprising how little some "hunters" know about game anatomy and proper shot placement.

[tward]

Digital Dan, I was confused by your 22cb comments but I see you are using one of those Contender elephant guns, no wonder they work so well!:bigsmyl2:

[Digital Dan]

An observation, perhaps pertinent to the over arching inquiry in this thread, but I'm of a mind that most folks will rise to the level of performance required in most any endeavor. Should one face a creature that can inflict harm with a single shot rifle, and is well beyond the years where running or climbing trees is a distant memory, they tend to be more discriminating and thoughtful about just how, where and when they jerk the trigger. It matters not if it is a snake, hog, bear, ol' cranky bull buffalo or an elk.

Roger Miller said something on topic years ago in his song "The Ballad of Waterhole #3".

The code of the west ain't some words on a page, You just naturally know it when you come of age
You eat when you're hungry, you drink when you're dry, You look every man in the eye
It's the code of the west when the boys talk of women, The code of the west what you know you don't tell
The code of the west a man soaps his own saddle, Brands his own cattle and some of his neighbour's as well


If you're buildin' fences then I ain't for hire, You get me for nothin' and I'll bring the wire
You patch up my windows, I'll plumb up your doors, If you scratch my back I'll scratch yours
It's the code of the west you must honour your neighbour, The code of the west to your own self be true
The code of the west you must do unto others, Do unto others before them others do ït unto you!

Lyrics from: http://www.lyricsforsong.net/

[Swede44mag]

Split the difference. .41 Mag and you'll never look back!

Now you done it went and made me want a .41 Mag

[Make my day]

I am an avid handgun hunter for 20b years. I hunt with a 44 Magnum and have had excellent results with 240 grain JHP's, but I am currently working on a heavy bullet cast load in a different thread here. I do not hunt with a 357, but a friend I hunt with has taken several deer over the years with his. I think either caliber is fine and it comes down to what everybody is talking about here. What are you most comfortable shooting and shooting well. Shot placement being as or more important than performance.