Double rifle

[Tatume]

Hello Folks,

I'm looking semi-seriously at a Browning Express Double and a Winchester Grand European XTR Rifle, both in 30-06. I'm more attracted to side-by-side doubles, but these two are an order of magnitude less expensive than the big-name side-by-side guns. But then, there is the Sabatti, which I'd also like to consider.

If you have opinions on these or other similar type guns, please share.

I'm not a rich man, but I have been saving my gun money for a long time (and recently sold some stuff), and could swing one of these. It's a big decision, one that I'm not sure I'm ready to make. But I want to continue learning more.

Do you know of any good sources of information on the relative merits of "beginner" double rifles. I would probably use if for hog hunting, so don't need a dangerous game chambering.

Thanks, Tom

P.s., The single shot forum looked like the best fit for my question.

[dubber123]

Have you considered having a SxS shotgun converted? I have one I need to finish, but have shot a lot. It shoots VERY well, sub 1" groups at 50 yds. for 2 pairs, (4 shots). I chambered it in 50-90, and shoot a paper patch 560 gr. boolit at around 1,900 fps. Should do just fine for hogs.

[dave roelle]

I have no experience in double rifles-----would love to own one. I think that it must be considered a financial INVESTMENT as much as anything else. The branded english pieces seem to only gain value

That said this is the first place i would go visit

http://bradshawgunandrifle.com/Farquharson_Double_Rifle_1B.php


Best of luck in you search

Dave

[elk hunter]

I have some experience with double rifles so will chime in with my two cents worth. The Sabatti was sold by Cabellas and apparently there are no more of them available through them. At least there wasn't last year when I was looking for one in 450-400. I have no experience with them but thought I would like to try one. The Russian Biakal is cheap and ugly but, sturdy. I have one in 45-70 that I just can't bring myself to be seen with at the range. I also have a Chapuis, made in France, which I believe is the best value in the current double rifle market. Last year you could pick up a used one for less than $5,000.00 and they are nice quality, good shooting and great looking rifles. When it comes to panache nothing can beat an English or Irish double but, you will pay for the quality. I have two English BPE doubles and can say they look, feel and shoot the way you want them to.

If you can find a Sabatti you may be pleased with it but there has been some criticism of them in the double gun circles. Muzzles ground to regulate them being the theme.

If you want quality you have to pay for it. If I had to pick what to recommend based on what I've seen and shot I would say save your money and buy a Chapuis, I'm sure you would be pleased.

[Artful]

I'd contact StolzerandSons (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/member.php?20810-StolzerandSons) aka Colin on this board.
https://stolzergunsmithing.wordpress.com/
ask him for opinions and options.
http://www.stolzergunsmithing.com/apps/photos/
start of his 2 bore double project

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dg3XDe791oY
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj75/cstolzer338/2%20Bore%20Double%20Rifle/Finished/LSPistolandAmmo_zpsdf8ac8c1.jpg
http://www.stolzergunsmithing.com/2boredoublerifle.htm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMEXxW-Se5w
and one of his single barrel 2 bore customers
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMEXxW-Se5w

[rockrat]

The Sabatti's from Cabelas were a **** shoot. Some had the muzzles ground for regulation (my 45-70) and some didn't and work just fine. Of course, some weren't ground ,and don't shoot worth a durn. My 45-70 would group well at 50yds, but at 100 yds, the bullet from the ground muzzle would be sideways and about 18" away from the other barrels shot.

There is a double rifle section on accurate reloading forum, that will have alot of info. I think that the browning and winchester guns had problems if shot alot. Don't remember exactly what, so ask there. As said, with a little work, the Baikal doubles were supposed to be great shooting guns, just ugly. The Valmet 412/512 are good guns, a bit heavy if you are carrying them along ways. I have a 412 and a 512 in 9.3 x 74R and did have one for awhile in 30-06, but its long gone. The 412 will be going as I don't need two. You should be able to pick one of those up for about $1,200. Was tempted to get a Chapuis, but my 512 works just fine.

[timspawn]

I had a Chapuis in 470NE for a little while. It was in a nice leather bound case. It had been fired two rounds when I got it. I shot it two rounds. If you can find one for under 5K I would jump on it. I sold mine for 8K in 2009 or 2010. There is also the Petersoli Kodiak in 45-70. I used one that had been converted to one of the British .450 rounds to kill a water buffalo.

[Doc Highwall]

You can take a look at the Baikal MP 221 Side by Side Break Action Rifle made in 30/06.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FDm1H4-yvY

[skeettx]

Do not forget the Baikal IZH-94 express rifle

Not expensive and fun to play with

[Ola]

made in 30/06. Ok, this something that needs to be said:

A double rifle, or any other break-open rifle, works better with a RIMMED case. Because the extractor is simpler and WAY more reliable. The general advice is: do not buy a double in .223, .308, .30-06 etc etc if you have a rimmed option available.

[fouronesix]

Gotta mirror the thoughts about 'you get what you pay for' in this category. If a double is not reliable and is not regulated (correctly) to a single rear sight- it is simply a novelty gun.

[pietro]

The Browning would appeal to me more because it can be fitted with a set of 20ga Superposed shotgun barrels.


.

[Nobade]

What about Merkel? I see those occasionally, and they look pretty nice for the price. Don't know a whole lot about double rifles, though...

-Nobade

[James Wisner]

I used and hunted with a Browning for a number of years. The two barrel set, 30-06, and a 20 gauge F/M barrel set.

The one thing the rifle barrels need first is a good 1/4 rib to place any scope rings onto. I installed the old Kimber QD rings and a Leupold 2x7 compact on the 1/4 rib I fitted to the 30-06 I had.
I also installed a swivel base on the bottom barrel, and one in the butt stock for a sling.
The Browning is on the 20 gauge frame, while the Winchesters I saw years ago were on the 12 gauge frame.

I lucked out, both barrels would over lap at 100 yards, with a moderate load of 4350 and a 165 gr Speer bullet.
Each barrel would shoot a 3 shot group about 2" and a 6 shot group with both barrels would run 3 1/2", more than good enough for deer size targets.

Never has any extraction problems, that system uses a nice sized blade to engage the rim recess.

The only problem I had was it would only kill spikes.
With three spike bucks and a mountain goat taken with it, I really liked it, but just could never find anything bigger.
I killed a LOT of birds with it as well. Finally badly needed some money for bills and sold it about 4 years ago.

Do I miss it, yes, that is why I am in the process of building a 20 gauge on top and a 30-40 Krag barrel on the bottom to fit onto my 20 gauge Browning Citori.

If I had the money and did it again, yes I would by another Browning o/u rifle.

J Wisner

[John Taylor]

I have made several double rifles on shotgun actions. Need to be careful when picking a cartridge that it will not be to much for the action. Most old shotguns use a cast iron frame and are only suitable for black powder cartridges. The last one I built for a customer was on a Winchester 21 which is considered as strong as they get, in 416-500. Recoil and muzzle blast was a bit much. I'm building one for myself on a Sauer 16 gauge, making it an 8X72R ( 32-40 on steroids). Just putting liners in will make a shooter but it will also add a bunch of weight. Regulating the barrels is the most fun. If you plan on making you own it is best to get the book on building doubles.

[groovy mike]

I bought the Baikal in 45-70 and did not care for it. I also picked up a Cape gun (rifle / shotgun side by side combination) but eventually decided to sell it. You can find a lot of double gun info and discussion on www.nitroexpress.com (http://www.nitroexpress.com) Good guys there, but many members are in Europe and Australia which makes shipping parts and ammo etc. a problem, but the advice is free to cross borders!

[Tatume]

Hello Folks,

Thank you all for your thoughtful feedback. The upshot is that I now have more questions, not so much about the particular guns but about what I really want in a gun. I’m going to continue to pursue the idea, if not the actual gun.

Sincerely, Tom

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I have made several double rifles on shotgun actions. Need to be careful when picking a cartridge that it will not be to much for the action. Most old shotguns use a cast iron frame and are only suitable for black powder cartridges. The last one I built for a customer was on a Winchester 21 which is considered as strong as they get, in 416-500. Recoil and muzzle blast was a bit much. I'm building one for myself on a Sauer 16 gauge, making it an 8X72R ( 32-40 on steroids). Just putting liners in will make a shooter but it will also add a bunch of weight. Regulating the barrels is the most fun. If you plan on making you own it is best to get the book on building doubles.

I would be wary of any shotgun, for anything, that I knew had a cast iron receiver. For a long time they have usually been forged, and from steel rather than iron, something like mild steel being quite good enough. I would feel safest with one of this standard which has a top extension with Greener crossbolt (a doll's head isn't nearly as good), or with one which is built of investment cast modern alloy steel. A sidelock is usually stronger than a boxlock, and a back-action sidelock strongest of all. It is hard to make a boxlock without putting a left to right hole through its most vulnerable spot, below the breech face.

There was an article in "Gun Digest" quite a few years ago in which someone converted a Ruger Red Label shotgun. I forget the chambering, but it at least wasn't very different from a .45-70. He found he could get adequate regulation by his choice of bullet weight, and since the shotgun cartridge controls regulation, it might well be the same with other 20ga guns. Just like with vertical impact regulation with a revolver, bullet weight is the way to do it. Higher velocity makes little difference, since it will deliver a stronger recoil impulse, but the bullet will leave the muzzle faster.

Bear in mind, though, that guns are made for their intended purpose. Nobody will ever notice if a shotgun pattern from one barrel is two or three inches higher than the other (in a SxS), but that would be a big disappointment when it has become a rifle. Perhaps you should try some of the most accurate slugs you can find, first.

I expect Hastings still sell rifled 12ga barrel blanks. If you can solder new ribs, these could provide a method of converting a double made in the European monobloc construction, i.e. barrels soldered into a one-piece machined steel block which closely resembles a complete barrel assembly amputated just in front of the hinge pin. In 19th century Africa that would have been considered a good lion gun, and not all hogs are non-dangerous.

There is a lot more information in this thread, including a book which may be the book, although it is now pretty expensive on www.bookfinder.com (http://www.bookfinder.com) .

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/archive/index.php/t-159222.html

A 20ga seems to be the most popular starting point, because it is adequately strong... probably... and yet doesn't produce too heavy a rifle. Quite a few people have done it, and I have heard of nobody meeting with disaster. On the other hand if any of them found they had made a mistake because the gun was loosening up, would you hear about that?

I don't suppose I will ever do this, but here is a gun at which I look wistfully from time to time, my 24ga Anciens Etablissements Pieper double. It has back action locks although the plates don't look like it, the Greener crossbolt, and the unusual feature of chopper lump barrels joined together by a vertical dovetail, and soft solder only. I would be wary of trying even a good deer cartridge, though.


129687

[rockrat]

Forgot to mention, you can get shotgun barrels for the Valmet. Cabelas had one in 243/243 with a set of 12 ga barrels, that I amost bought.

[John Taylor]

price runs from $60 to over $150. I think I paid $40 for mine.
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_c_0_15?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=building%20double%20rifles%20on%20shotgun %20actions&sprefix=building+double%2Caps%2C328 (http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_c_0_15?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=building%20double%20rifles%20on%20shotgun %20actions&sprefix=building+double%2Caps%2C328)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Building-Double-Rifles-on-Shotgun-Actions-W-Ellis-Brown-/391044491566?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5b0c11692e

http://www.bundukipublishing.com/doublerifle.htm

[olafhardt]

I have a Hand rifle in 500 S&W. It has never fired a factory round. I went to a gun show today and saw another one laying on a table. I asked the guy if he had fired it. He said no, he wasn'the stupid. Seems the guy who bought it originally had fired two factory loads and sold it to another guy that fired it twice and traded it to the guy I talked today. If I was making a double rifle I would consider the 500S&W. If you reload and cast the 500 is extremely versatile because you can use all of the 50 caliber muzzle loader projectiles, sabots, balls and even an ounce or so of shot. Strong, durable brass is readily available. Two thin barrel liners and some adjustment to the extractors would be most of the necessary changes. The only hand loading data that could be used would be that for reduced loads. I have loaded a 365 grain hollow base wad cutter over 6.8 grains of Unique. The HBC was a Lee 50 cal modern mini. There is no way I would approach full 500S&W pressures on a shotgun frame. Why should I? I think some of my 50mausenfarten loads would shoot through a hog lengthwise and expand to at least 50 caliber. An advantage the 50MF has over muzzle loaders is that harder, stronger alloys can be used with relatively small cheap loads of smokeless powders.

[Nobade]

I would not recommend chambering any custom gun for a cartridge that is too intense for it in factory form. A 50-70 can do the same thing, but you can't buy 60K PSI factory ammo for it. Plus it works a lot better with black powder if you are so inclined.

I have to keep this in mind when doing gun work for customers. Either not rechamber something to a cartridge it can't hold or don't throat something so short that it can't fire factory ammo without pressure problems. Because sooner or later somebody somewhere is going to fire some full power 500 S&W ammo in that shotgun and possibly take it apart.

-Nobade

[Tatume]

Hi Nobade,

Although I agree with you 100% about chambering guns for cartridges they won't handle safely, the fellow above said his gun is an H&R Handi-Rifle. The 500 S&W is a factory chambering for the H&R. For the same weight bullet, it is comparable to the 45-70 in recoil impulse, although chamber pressure is probably considerably higher. But apparently H&R considers it safe.

He goes on to talk about building a double rifle on a shotgun frame, and here he could get into trouble. As you observed, the 50-70 would do what he wants, but I suspect that 500 S&W ammo will chamber in some 50-70 rifles anyway.

Take care, Tom

[John Taylor]

I get calls often wanting to put cartridge barrels on old shotguns. The one that really got me was a guy wanting a 50 BMG on an old 10 gauge trying to tell me that because some modern H&Rs are made in 308 that it will take the pressure. I did the numbers for him pointing out that the 10 gauge has about 6,000 pounds of bolt thrust and the 308 is about 8,000, when you go to the 50 BMG it has about 25,000 pounds of bolt thrust. I said you might as well hold a hand grenade next to your cheek.

[Huvius]

If you are looking for a great hog gun, take a look at a black powder express rifle.
A 450 or 500 is easy to load with NfB smokeless loads and are of course great fun with black.
Lots of boolit choices and the quality of a double even in the $4-7K range is something you will not even approach in a modern gun of the same price range.
The Sabatti can be put right by cutting the muzzles back and re-regulating. Bought right, that could be a good option if you insist on a full nitro gun. You will find lots of info on that at nitroexpress and accuratereloading.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I get calls often wanting to put cartridge barrels on old shotguns. The one that really got me was a guy wanting a 50 BMG on an old 10 gauge trying to tell me that because some modern H&Rs are made in 308 that it will take the pressure. I did the numbers for him pointing out that the 10 gauge has about 6,000 pounds of bolt thrust and the 308 is about 8,000, when you go to the 50 BMG it has about 25,000 pounds of bolt thrust. I said you might as well hold a hand grenade next to your cheek.

I bet a purpose-built .50 BMG single could be built down to about 10lb weight too. But for some reason people don't.

In general the strength of a modern cartridge case, momentarily expanded tightly into the chamber wall, can much reduce the thrust exerted on the breech face. Several people lately have quoted PO Ackley's experiment with a 94 Winchester in which one of his Improved cases held the pressure with the locking lug removed. A shooter might get away with a lot until he has an oily chamber. But moving from the general to the particular, there is a severe death-wish in hoping for this to be much help with the 50 Browning. It isn't just several times the power before the breech failure. It is several times the power afterwards too.

However the fact that the bolt thrust may not be very different between shotgun and sensible rifle loads, goes part-way to explaining why they often turn out not too badly regulated after the conversion. I think beveled muzzles aren't the best way of completing the regulation. Besides looking odd, the can cause the last-moment jet effect to induce a wobble of the bullet. Changing the bullet weight should be tried first. If that isn't enough, increased convergence can be induced by drilling holes into the barrel after the manner sometimes used as a kind of muzzle brake, slightly further back from the muzzle than the length of the bullet's bearing surface. The ribs being where they are, reduced convergence is difficult to achieve this way.

[olafhardt]

I would not recommend chambering any custom gun for a cartridge that is too intense for it in factory form. A 50-70 can do the same thing, but you can't buy 60K PSI factory ammo for it. Plus it works a lot better with black powder if you are so inclined.

I have to keep this in mind when doing gun work for customers. Either not rechamber something to a cartridge it can't hold or don't throat something so short that it can't fire factory ammo without pressure problems. Because sooner or later somebody somewhere is going to fire some full power 500 S&W ammo in that shotgun and possibly take it apart.

-Nobade

I completely agree with all you say. Something that has come to my mind is to make tthe barrel liners short chambered so they would not chamber factory loads, sort of a reverse of the 38spl/357 principle. You may have to trim say 1/8 inch off the brass but there is extra space for fast powder. The loudest fart my mouse has cut with pistol powder was with 16 grains os Tightgroup and a 440 grain boolit. If my memory is correct John Buhmiller (?) wanted a true 50 caliber rifle so he could shoot short pieces of 1/2 inch copper rod. I don't know if I will ever do this as I am lazy as a man can be.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

If you are looking for a great hog gun, take a look at a black powder express rifle.
A 450 or 500 is easy to load with NfB smokeless loads and are of course great fun with black.
Lots of boolit choices and the quality of a double even in the $4-7K range is something you will not even approach in a modern gun of the same price range.
The Sabatti can be put right by cutting the muzzles back and re-regulating. Bought right, that could be a good option if you insist on a full nitro gun. You will find lots of info on that at nitroexpress and accuratereloading.

This could be good advice, but these, in good condition, aren't cheap either. But even one with a rough bore is worth relining for a cartridge of comparable pressure.

Deaers' eyes often light up at the thought "This is a British double rifle." But in an auction only bidders' eyes lighting up counts. I've had good luck with other items in the auctions of this firm in Australia, who seem honest and well used to exporting. Unless the situation changes they aren't allowed to send guns by Australia post, and must arrange an agent to extract them from bulk freight and forward them to you. But it seems to work out well, and isn't unduly expensive.

http://www.australianarmsauctions.com/

[rbertalotto]

EAA has barrel inserts available for the Baikal 12ga Bounty Hunter Shotgun. I built this 45-70 Double Rifle a few years ago and love it. Weighs about 12 pounds so a big ol' 45-70 has little recoil. Bullet holes are .75" apart at 25yds and cover each other at 50 yds. And still on paper at 100yds! I added sights and replaced the terrible recoil pad it came with. Bought a nice case for it on Amazon. The rifle I bought used for $200 and I believe the barrels weren't much more.

http://eaacorp.com/gun_accessories/index.php/parts/baikal/barrel-inserts.html

http://images20.fotki.com/v681/photos/2/36012/9695081/DSC_2763-vi.jpg

http://images53.fotki.com/v1494/photos/2/36012/9695081/DSC_2679-vi.jpg

http://images15.fotki.com/v792/photos/2/36012/9695081/DSC_2674-vi.jpg

http://images22.fotki.com/v818/photos/2/36012/9695081/DSC_2673-vi.jpg

Lots more pictures here:
http://public.fotki.com/Rbertalotto/things-that-go-bang/eaa-baikal-bounty-h/

[Tatume]

Do the inserts apply tension like the system on Dan Wesson revolvers?

[rbertalotto]

Yes. And turning the knurled extensions sets regulation. Works great. But I hate the look of the extensions. I might do something about that in the future.

[Tatume]

Hmmm. That's interesting. Can one mount a scope on the rifle without great expense?

[waksupi]

Hmmm. That's interesting. Can one mount a scope on the rifle without great expense?

I really dislike a scope on a dangerous game rifle. They are meant for fast close range work. The scope doesn't contribute to this.

[Tatume]

I really dislike a scope on a dangerous game rifle. They are meant for fast close range work. The scope doesn't contribute to this.

There are those who disagree, although I have no opinion. I've read a couple of articles that compared two-shot speed and accuracy with and without and found the scoped gun to be faster or at least as fast.

I'm not planning a dangerous game gun anyway. I'm interested in a hunting gun, but am most attracted to medium calibers (45-70 and 9.3x74mmR are near the top of my list).

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

Hint on Sabbatis: Cabela's refused to let buyers return them. Regulation was haphazard. When returned, after threat of legal action by some buyers, for re-regulation, most I have seen had file marks on the muzzles.
Go to Accurate Reloading and look on the double rifle forum.

For a quality double at a reasonable price, and with a warranty, check out Chapuis. My 9,3x74R made a trip to Africa with me in 2010 and took several head of plains game. They start at about $8K.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I really dislike a scope on a dangerous game rifle. They are meant for fast close range work. The scope doesn't contribute to this.

It isn't just speed of aiming. The scope can be knocked out of adjustment without anything being noticeably wrong, and a smear of mud on a lens can render it useless. Focus is a problem with the higher magnifications, too. At close range identifying the right part to hit can be impossible, and it can take a second or two to be sure whether you are aiming at an animal, or out of focus scenery over its shoulder - and you may not have a second or two.

Of course dirt in the aperture of a peepsight (which I consider far superior to open sights) is a pretty difficult situation too. Most of these disadvantages are much less with low magnification. I used my 1.5x steel Weaver for conventional woodland hunting, and it still had a great advantage over iron sights. It was surprising how well it stacked up against scopes of higher power.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Do the inserts apply tension like the system on Dan Wesson revolvers?

The trouble (even more than with revolvers) is that the tubes will expand and contract quite differently from the outer barrel. I would feel happier if there was some kind of spring tensioning device, rather than just solid nut against solid muzzle. A cup-shaped nut with a stack of Belleville washers ought to do it. These are very slightly conical spring steel washers, which put the maximum amount of spring tension in a small space.

[M-Tecs]

EAA has barrel inserts available for the Baikal 12ga Bounty Hunter Shotgun. I built this 45-70 Double Rifle a few years ago and love it. Weighs about 12 pounds so a big ol' 45-70 has little recoil. Bullet holes are .75" apart at 25yds and cover each other at 50 yds. And still on paper at 100yds! I added sights and replaced the terrible recoil pad it came with. Bought a nice case for it on Amazon. The rifle I bought used for $200 and I believe the barrels weren't much more.

http://eaacorp.com/gun_accessories/index.php/parts/baikal/barrel-inserts.html

http://images20.fotki.com/v681/photos/2/36012/9695081/DSC_2763-vi.jpg

http://images53.fotki.com/v1494/photos/2/36012/9695081/DSC_2679-vi.jpg

http://images15.fotki.com/v792/photos/2/36012/9695081/DSC_2674-vi.jpg

http://images22.fotki.com/v818/photos/2/36012/9695081/DSC_2673-vi.jpg

Lots more pictures here:
http://public.fotki.com/Rbertalotto/things-that-go-bang/eaa-baikal-bounty-h/

Darn!! I see I am going to be spending some money in the future on another toy I don't need.

[Tatume]

The trouble (even more than with revolvers) is that the tubes will expand and contract quite differently from the outer barrel. I would feel happier if there was some kind of spring tensioning device, rather than just solid nut against solid muzzle. A cup-shaped nut with a stack of Belleville washers ought to do it. These are very slightly conical spring steel washers, which put the maximum amount of spring tension in a small space.

It appears that rubber O-rings are between the nut and muzzle, perhaps for just what you suggest.

[rbertalotto]

The trouble (even more than with revolvers) is that the tubes will expand and contract quite differently from the outer barrel. I would feel happier if there was some kind of spring tensioning device, rather than just solid nut against solid muzzle. A cup-shaped nut with a stack of Belleville washers ought to do it. These are very slightly conical spring steel washers, which put the maximum amount of spring tension in a small space.

Proof is in the pudding........It just darn shoots great! I'd feel very comfortable against any charging paper target or water filled milk jugs! :bigsmyl2:

[Doc Highwall]

If the barrel and shroud are both made out of the same material the expansion and contraction will be the same. A thin barrel under tension will have a greater stiffness and accuracy like a heavy barrel but without the added weight. The Dan Wesson revolvers proved that.

[dubber123]

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh83/dubber123/IMG_0014.jpg (http://s254.photobucket.com/user/dubber123/media/IMG_0014.jpg.html)

A few of the last regulation targets shot with my cobbled together 50-90 double.. The one on the right shows it getting adjusted to center, the small target to the left is another right/left pair from the bench, the upper one is a fast pair from off hand at 50 yards. It was still on a clay pigeon at 100 yds. with either barrel, and and hit a 12" plate at 200 meters either barrel easily. Load is a 560 gr. at close to 1,900 fps. Doubles can be made to shoot just fine.

[Bulldogger]

560gr dubber123? Yipes!

[dubber123]

560gr dubber123? Yipes!

Yes, I was shooting for 550 when I made the mold, I took a guess and got 560. Close enough for me. :) I like the roundy round nose profile. You might notice it looks an awful lot like a 1/2" ball end mill.. They make a perfect .501" hole for a paper patch 50-90 boolit. I just re-used an out of spec Lyman .30 cal mold, and ran the end mill down it.

[tazman]

A gun shop near me has a Chapuis chambered for 375H&H Priced something over $7000. I didn't look closely at it since I didn't want to handle it. When I saw this thread it reminded me of it.
It was a nice looking rifle.

[Tatume]

Hi Taz,

That's a cartridge I like too! I have a Ruger No. 1H in 375 H&H, and find it comfortable to shoot and effective on game. Is it new?

Take care, Tom

[groovy mike]

A gun shop near me has a Chapuis chambered for 375H&H Priced something over $7000. I didn't look closely at it since I didn't want to handle it. When I saw this thread it reminded me of it.
It was a nice looking rifle.

That would be a bargain.

[tazman]

Hi Taz,

That's a cartridge I like too! I have a Ruger No. 1H in 375 H&H, and find it comfortable to shoot and effective on game. Is it new?

Take care, Tom

I believe so. He has one shown on his web site that says new.
http://www.simpsonltd.com/
The one shown on the site isn't the one I saw. He probably has more than one. Use the search engine on the left side to look for a particular gun.

[WinMike]

My sole experience was with a vierling that I picked up in Germany. The two rifle barrels were 22 l.r. and 8x57R. It took a while to find a 22 l.r. cartridge that was accurate, and a lot of experimenting with various loads to get the 8x57 barrel correct. The reason I mention it is that I didn't even think of regulating any of the barrels, but instead, concentrated on finding a bullet/powder combination that shot true to the sights. So that's a factor you might think about when you finally get yours.

[Bulldogger]

560gr dubber123? Yipes!
Aha, at first read I thought you meant 560gr of powder. Yes a 560gr projectile is pretty big. I feel a little less threatened.
Bulldogger

[Ballistics in Scotland]

If the barrel and shroud are both made out of the same material the expansion and contraction will be the same. A thin barrel under tension will have a greater stiffness and accuracy like a heavy barrel but without the added weight. The Dan Wesson revolvers proved that.

Spring tension, whether steel or rubber, should avoid any problem by keeping that tension constant. I am not sure that the Dan Wesson revolvers actually proved that to beneficial to accuracy (the patents having expired, the others don't do it), but it is possible that some of the things that people have done with Ruger 10-22s have. Market forces seem to indicate there has to be a snag somewhere, and with the rifles it is probably that a .22 of conventional weight holds steadier.

Barrels or pieces of barrels will expand the same amount for a given temperature difference in each. The inside of any barrel gets much hotter than the outside, and it will be more so when heat has to pass the junction between two pieces of metal. A possible alternative to spring tension would be to secure the barrel only at the rear end, and allow it to slide freely with expansion. This is what the German 1988 Commission rifle did, although in this case the housing was liable to dent or harbor rust.

[AkMike]

Tatume, you've got a PM.

[Tatume]

I am not sure that the Dan Wesson revolvers actually proved that to beneficial to accuracy (the patents having expired, the others don't do it), ...

Actually, S&W now installs barrels this way. They make it a permanent installation, but the basic mechanical arrangement is the same.

Take care, Tom