Can you tell me what this rifle round would be?

[mattw]

I am posting here because of the date on the case head... 1887! The brass at the neck measures .465 inches and as you can see it is paper patched. I think it is on it original loading, based on the primer. I am guessing that it may be Brit? My good buddy Google was not much help, I really did not know what to ask him!

129444
129445

[M-Tecs]

Martini-Henry 577/.450?

http://www.thegunner.net/ccp8/Item/450-577_yellow_patch

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.577/450_Martini-Henry

[mattw]

I found it interesting that the head has such an odd shape, it is not flat. Thanks for the ID, that looks like a fun and interesting old series of rifles. But, I do not need to learn paper patching and all of the special stuff that goes with that round.

Thanks Matt

[M-Tecs]

From Wiki --The .577/450 was based upon the same separate steel head used for the .577 Snider (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/wiki/.577_Snider) cartridge (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/wiki/Cartridge_(firearms)), with a wrapped foil body firing a nominally .45 calibre (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/wiki/Caliber) bullet (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/wiki/Bullet), giving the cartridge a "bottle-necked" appearance. Initially, .577/450 cartridges were manufactured of rolled brass (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/wiki/Brass) foil with an iron rim, but later on—shortly after the Anglo-Zulu War (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/wiki/Anglo-Zulu_War)—it was discovered that the rolled foil cartridges were prone to jamming as the barrel heated up, and production was switched to the drawn brass style now commonly used for the manufacture of small arms (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/wiki/Small_arms) ammunition.--

[.22-10-45]

The M.H. case head is alot thinner than that example. The early German ctgs. of that time period had thicker than normal head/rim dimensions. My guess is 11mm Mauser or some foreign varient of it.

[mattw]

Not trying to be a PITA here, I did read the above article. I then ran off and checked it with a good magnet, not magnetic. Looking at many different photos, mine does not appear to be a rolled foil round as it is very solid and smooth. The photos I see in Google images all have a flat head, like a modern round. I am just curious about the odd protruding center of the head, I have not seen that before. I have been reloading and casting for 25+ years, just never have dealt with this round or these rifles. My collection goes back to Enfields and '03's. I have been around and loaded for several 45-70's and things like falling and rolling blocks, but have never been lucky enough to own one.

Thanks matt

[M-Tecs]

The M.H. case head is alot thinner than that example. The early German ctgs. of that time period had thicker than normal head/rim dimensions. My guess is 11mm Mauser or some foreign varient of it.

You might be right. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/11%C3%9760mm_Mauser

http://www.ammo-one.com/11x60RmmMauser.html

[mattw]

You lead me to the correct round! The 11.15x58Rmm Austrian Werndl!

https://www.libertytreecollectors.com/productcart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=2719

Thanks Matt


The M.H. case head is alot thinner than that example. The early German ctgs. of that time period had thicker than normal head/rim dimensions. My guess is 11mm Mauser or some foreign varient of it.

[mattw]

Now, I really need to figure out how to preserve some of my oldest rounds. Just been keeping them cool, dry and dark. I have already lost some factory original Newton rounds, they turned green and split!

[Lead pot]

That looks like a 11x58R Werndl blackpowder cartridges It came in the clips for the M1886 Mannlicher. Military designation "Scharfe Patrone M1886". Made in Wiener Neustadt in 1888.

[ascast]

11x58R Werndl

I have a lot of that ammo, It may split over time. Most of it still shoots, but hang fires not un-common.
To be absolutely sure, you will need to measure it in a few spots, like the base, etc.
It is very close to the French Gras, but slightly shorter ( I think)
very cool

[ascast]

oh yeah, the " VI " is the month of production

[Ballistics in Scotland]

That head shape is what, in Mauser rifles, was called the A base, although it was used by others. The head diameter in front of the rim would be useful. I am practically sure that it is either the 11x50R French Gras at .530in. or the 11.15x60R Mauser at .510. While the lengths are given as 2.34in and 2.37in. by Barnes, they are likely to be indistinguishable in production.

It certainly isn't the .577/.450 or the slightly slimmer Turkish one, as they had a flat head and rather thin rim. The 11.15x58R Austria-Hungarian Werndl, had the thick A base, but was wider in the body.