S&W M-1917 Rebuild Problem

[Ed in North Texas]

I bought a rebuilt S&W M-1917 shooter. !917 frame, new .45 ACP 6.5" barrel, cylinder with a different SN than the frame and reblued.

Single .45 ACP are stopped in the cylinder by the case mouth headspacing in the chambers. No problems with "full moon" clips, but I decided to go with Starline .45 AR brass and HKS 25-M loader. The HKS loader aligns the cartridges OK, though it doesn't insert them very far at all as the ejector center stops it with the boolits just entering the cylinder.

But the biggest problem is trying to load all 6 .45 AR cartridges. The cylinder will close with 4 rounds loaded 2-blank-2-blank. As soon as a fifth or all six are attempted, those cartridge cases stand out far enough from seated to prevent the cylinder from closing.

Could there be enough difference between the 1917 cylinder and the 1955 cylinder? I can't see the 1955 cylinder not working with Auto Rim cases. The cases lock into the HKS, so the rims wouldn't seem to be that far off (if at all). And I've used lots of Starline cases and have never had a problem with them - certainly not enough of a problem to see this sort of issue. I guess it could be another "N" frame cylinder rechambered to .45 ACP, but that seems like a dumb thing to do.

Any bright ideas on what the cause might be? Right now it looks like I'll have some new .45 Auto Rim cases for sale soon.

[bhn22]

Are you getting a consistent taper crimp on the cases? Will the loaded cartridges chamber okay individually without the speedloader?

[DuaneH]

Ed:

I once had a model 25-2 that would not close if using .45 AR cases. The problem turned out to be the extractor. It was machined with a generous radius at the base of the ratchet boss. Large enough that it would hold a .45 AR case rim up off the back of the cylinder.

[Ed in North Texas]

Are you getting a consistent taper crimp on the cases? Will the loaded cartridges chamber okay individually without the speedloader?

With ACP and a "full moon", no problems at all. With the Auto Rim I can get 4 cartridges to work fine - loaded 2 cartridges - an empty chamber - two cartridges and an empty chamber. But when I try to get 6 AR cartridges to load, 2 in opposing chambers (those two empties above) will stick up far enough to prevent the cylinder closing. Doesn't matter which cartridges I choose to load, the same thing will happen.

Oh, and it doesn't matter which chambers I choose to load, the same pattern holds true.

The info on the speedloader might have been a clue to the problem if someone recognized the clue, but hand loading the cartridges produces the same results.

[Ed in North Texas]

Ed:

I once had a model 25-2 that would not close if using .45 AR cases. The problem turned out to be the extractor. It was machined with a generous radius at the base of the ratchet boss. Large enough that it would hold a .45 AR case rim up off the back of the cylinder.

Would it load as I described (2 plus 2 with two empty chambers separating the pairs of loaded chambers), or would it hold off even a single cartridge in any chamber? Did it work OK with "full moon" clips? This might be promising.


Thanks to you both. Still up for anyone with other ideas. I've been reloading for half a century plus and this has me flummoxed. It has to be either something with the cylinder or the case rims. I thought maybe they were oversize. Checked a couple @ .509, a Lee diagram shows a rim diameter of .516 (I don't think that is correct).

[dragonrider]

Just a thought but are your moons bent?? Probably not, but worth a look, why did you replace the cylinder?, is the other one serviceable at all?. If so do the cartridges chamber in that one?

[DuaneH]

My gun would not close with even one .45 AR case loaded. It worked fine with .45 ACP cases either with or without half moon clips. I never tried full moon clips.

Have you tried grinding a flat on one side of the case rim, then loading with the flat side to the center? If it works, then you would know you have an interference.

[Ed in North Texas]

Just a thought but are your moons bent?? Probably not, but worth a look, why did you replace the cylinder?, is the other one serviceable at all?. If so do the cartridges chamber in that one?

I'm sorry, I guess I didn't make it clear that the APC/moon combos work perfectly, the problem is with the Auto Rim cases. I bought the revolver as it is today, I didn't change the cylinder. Wish I knew who did the work so I could have a better shot at figuring out the source of the problem. Nice reblue job though.

[Ed in North Texas]

My gun would not close with even one .45 AR case loaded. It worked fine with .45 ACP cases either with or without half moon clips. I never tried full moon clips.

Have you tried grinding a flat on one side of the case rim, then loading with the flat side to the center? If it works, then you would know you have an interference.

Because 4 of the AR cases work fine, I can guarantee that the single case would load fine, no matter where the flat was located on loading. I might do that with two cases and see if I can get six to load. I considered reducing the diameter of the AR case rims a tad (a flat or two would be less trouble than turning them). But I question whether that is less work than simply using the full moon clips. In the longer term it would be, but I tend to shoot my .45 pistols more than this revolver. Maybe I should just have the cylinder bored out for .45 Colt and have a tight bored revolver to go with my Marlin carbine and be done with it. Gads, another potential decision! [smilie=b:

[MattOrgan]

From your description I am assuming that the rims on the Auto Rim cases are interfering with each other? What make and vintage are your cases. I'm using new Remington cases and a bunch of old Peters balloon head cases in my M1917 without issues. If you think you have some over size diameter rimmed cases I can measure my stock to compare to yours, let me know.

[Ed in North Texas]

Problem solved!

I decided that it would be best to take a picture of the loaded cylinder to illustrate what I'm writing. I used new cases and all slid in slick as a whistle. So I then went to the loaded cartridges - and most of them stood off a little bit. The OAL was correct, in fact a hair short. But the boolit design was such that most of the boolits hung in the chamber so OAL didn't matter. Apparently the chamber diameter past the ACP case area is a bit tighter than the ID of a loaded case. After a bit over half a century I still can learn something new in reloading. All the loaded ammo will be run back through the seater to put the boolit deeper in the case.

Thanks to all who replied and good shooting to y'all.

Oh, while I have the camera out, here's a picture:

129634



Yes, the replacement barrel is a longer 6.5 inch bbl. The original GI grips were replaced with regular S&W grips, so they are now in a drawer and replaced with the Hogue Monogrip.

[Ed in North Texas]

From your description I am assuming that the rims on the Auto Rim cases are interfering with each other? What make and vintage are your cases. I'm using new Remington cases and a bunch of old Peters balloon head cases in my M1917 without issues. If you think you have some over size diameter rimmed cases I can measure my stock to compare to yours, let me know.

Thanks for the input. They are new Starline cases. I'm sure you've read the answer by now too. Thanks again.

[rintinglen]

If you have a file and a drill press, you can turn the case heads enough to clear the troublesome overlay. turn one until it will drop in without binding then take a piece of scrap binding strap metal and cut or file a notch that will just barely fit over the head of the case you trimmed. Use that as a gauge to measure the rest as you do them. It is a one time deal, but it takes a minute or two each case. I wish I could see a picture of the problem. You mention Starline Brass, could you try a half dozen R-P and see if the fault lies not in our gun but in our brass (to paraphrase Shakespeare)?

[EDK]

Back during the SMITH & WESSON GUN OF THE WEEK period of the late 80s, I bought two S&W 625-2 revolvers. I used full moons with 45 ACP brass and H&G 68 boolits. After the second or third cylinder full fired, I'd have misfires or chambering issues. I spent a lot of time scratching my "ear" and then found the solution from a S&W factory guy at the Masters' Shoot in Il. It seems S&W had to make new chambering reamers when they produced the NEW MODEL 625 45 ACP revolvers. The old gentleman who had ground reamers by hand for years had retired long before. The new guy didn't know that you put a VERY gentle radius on the reamers. The square edge on the chambers shaved some lead and it built up enough to cause problems with the tightly chambered Smiths. They had beat their heads on the wall and somebody finally called the retiree. He laughed and told them what to do. So they made a bunch of reamers to break the square edge and sent them out to various factory warranty stations/gun shops. They did both of mine while I waited and corrected the problem at the factory on future guns. I bought a 3 inch 625 later and it was good to go from the start.

I don't know how much is true beyond my involvement, but it's a good story. RUGER had some similar issues with 44/40 Original Size VAQUEROS IIRC.

[Snow ninja]

Thanks for the update Ed, this had me flummoxed, I had both of my '17s out trying to figure this out! Glad it's fixed.

[The Virginian]

Did you find out how to fix it?

[StrawHat]

Did you find out how to fix it?

See post #11.

Kevin

[The Virginian]

So it seems in the end it was the ammo.

[captaint]

I realize I'm late to the party - but, I have a pre mod 25 model 1955 45ACP only. It uses the Starline 45Auto Rim brass no problem.