What is the "best" powder for cast loads ???.....

[bcp477]

Now that I have gotten some success with the cast bullets I have been trying, I am trying to refine/ optimize my load. I have decided to make my old, ragged M48 carbine (barrel shortened to 18.9") into a cast-only or almost cast-only shooter. The bullets I am using are 170 grain, flat-nose, plain base ones, RCBS mold 32-170-??-RN...sized .324, made from the Lyman #2 alloy....BHN of 15. The next time I buy bullets (I am not in a position to cast my own)...I will try to get the same bullet (or a similar one) sized to .325", if this is possible. Anyway, I have now gotten good accuracy from these bullets with 8.1-8.2 grains of Unique, which produces just a bit less than 1200 fps and sub 2" accuracy at 50 yards....and excellent consistency. This is actually odd, because checking back through my notes, I tried this load some time ago - with very poor results. I have concluded that my barrel was probably not clean enough (before)...and/or shortening it by 4.3" has made an improvement. (As an aside, this shortened barrel is actually more accurate and consistent with my jacketed loads that it was (before), at full-length.) In my search for an accurate load, I also tried 2400, based on the C.E. Harris article. Results weren't good then, either....but maybe they will be better, now that I have "fixed" whatever was wrong before (I wish I knew exactly what that was).

Anyway, I have a contact at the range that swears that SR-4759 is the "best" all-round powder for cast bullets. I have completed a rather exhaustive mathematical study of different powders (namely, Unique, 2400, Reloder 7, IMR-3031 and SR-4759)...with the idea to find a powder that will give the highest possible velocity, with suitably low chamber pressure (according to what I've read , for a BHN of 15, I need c.p. to be at or below 21,000 PSI, with the best accuracy generally at 90% of this....about 19,000). So, it looks to me as if Reloder 7, IMR-3031, or perhaps 2400 will be the best candidates from my list. Of course, whether I will get good accuracy at higher velocities is an open question, answerable only with testing. I am looking for about 1500- 1600 fps, if possible (any faster, I think, won't be possible with accuracy and no barrel leading, with these plain-based bullets). According to an article I read from the net a few days ago....this should be "no problem". The person who wrote it says that he has been shooting cast bullets at 2000-plus fps for 30 years, with no leading problems. Of course, above about 1600, a gas-checked bullet would be required. I am only trying to get to 1500 or 1600, maximum. His take on things is that velocity is NOT the issue...but chamber pressure IS. In other words, if one can find a load combination that allows whatever velocity to be produced one wants.... it will not be a problem, if one can keep chamber pressures at or below the maximum rating for that bullet. (In my case, a BHN of 15 x 1422 = 21,330 PSI. 90 % of that is about 19,100 PSI).

Sorry for the looong post, but I would be keenly interested in the opinions of you learned gentlemen, on this subject. I am trying to gather all of the information that I can....and learn as much as I can on this subject....as I am becoming more enthusiastic about cast bullet shooting, the more time passes. As I alluded above, my goal is to turn my old M48 into basically a cast bullet rifle, at least most of the time. If I can find a good, all-round cast load for this rifle, I will likely start shooting cast bullets exclusively. The prospect of saving money on bullets AND powder, while still having a fully effective load, really gets me going.

Thanks very much.

[Ben]

In .30 cal rifle, my " go to " powders are IMR 4198, Unique, SR-4759, IMR 4895.

Of the 4 listed, if I was forced to go to a single powder it would have to be Unique.

Thanks,
Ben

[mroliver77]

Looks as though you have a grasp of the situation. Unique, 2400 and 3031are some of my favorites. Bulls Eye for squibs and H414for medium bore.
J

[Larry Gibson]

You will find that somwhere 5.5-6.5 gr of Bullseye at around 1050-1100 fps will give you excellent accuracy as will Unique up to around 1400 fps (given the short barrel. Both will give better accuracy than 4759 as to burn efficiently it will drive your PB bullet too fast for accuracy.

Larry Gibson

[quickshot]

so far 2400 and blue dot have worked very well for me. Haven't gotten around to trying Bulls eye for squibs yet.

[EMC45]

Unique

[MtJerry]

I have lots of success with 5744 and cast

[bcp477]

Thank you all for the replies. I am taking note of all comments on this matter.

I went to the range last evening....to carry out some further testing with my new batch of bullets. Interestingly enough, the 8.1 grain load of Unique that worked so well last time (only 10 shots....first tested less than 2 weeks ago)....now absolutely sucks, through my rifle. The strange thing is - nothing has changed. Nothing about the rifle or loads (yes, the barrel is absolutely clean, just as last time, no changes in components, etc.) was changed. The only thing different was the ambient temperature. On the first test, the temperature in the range (it is an indoor facility) was in the high 50's or low 60's. Last evening it was in the mid to low 40's (the facility is not heated or cooled). So, the Unique load that I thought was a good one - apparently is not. I also tried 8.2 thru 9.0 grains of Unique - with no good results. I previously tested 10 thru 12 grains of this powder - with no good results. If the ambient temperature has THAT much effect on Unique...then I will find another powder. I am perplexed as to the Unique "situation", at this point.

I also tested a variety of loads, using 2400, with the same bullet. This was my first testing session with 2400 (with cast bullets). Well, the so-called (by Mr. C. E. Harris) "standard" 2400 load - 16.0 grains - doesn't work for my rifle. I tested from 12.0 grains....thru 20.0 grains. 14.0 was the best load of the lot - but still not particularly good. The rest were not anything like acceptable. As well, I must say, 2400 is the stinkiest and dirtiest powder I have ever tried ! That alone may cause me to dump the rest of the pound I have on hand. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/icons/icon8.gif

Lastly, just for the heck of it, I tested 10 rounds (5 each) , charged with 18.0 and 19.0 grains, resp., of IMR-4064, with dacron filler added. 4064 is certainly TOO SLOW for this application....and loads below about 26 grains are NOT safe without filler - so, I DO NOT RECOMMEND THIS TO ANYONE ELSE. Both loads left a good bit of unburned powder in the cases, proving that 4064 is too slow for this use. Oddly enough though, the 19.0 grain load was pretty accurate (a bit less than 2", at 50 yards). Just my luck - an accurate load with an unsuitable powder! Because of the safety issue and the unburned powder....I do not intend to try 4064 again for this purpose. Again, I DO NOT recommend this to anyone else (a powder like 4064 is dangerous in severely reduced loads) ....I am simply relating MY experiences.

So, obviously, I am "back to square one". I am not discouraged, though - I will see this effort through (I see too much of a "payoff", if I am successful...and I am too enthusiastic about cast bullets, to turn back now). After I returned from the range, I spent several hours doing my version of what I call "load analysis"....including some heavy-duty number crunching...trying to determine where to go from here. My research and my experiences lead me to believe that Unique is really too fast for my particular rifle. 4064 is obviously too slow. I know that lots of people use 4895....in the rough vicinity of 25 grains.....but analysis leads me to believe that it would be too slow for my plain-base bullets (it is fairly close to 4064, anyway). SR4759 has been recommended to me as "stellar" for cast bullets - but it isn't that much slower than 2400. So, after hours of work, I have come to the conclusion that the logical thing to do is try something in the IMR-3031 or Reloder 7 range. Perhaps my finicky M48 ("crotchity" may be more like it - the rifle IS more than 50 years old ! http://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/icons/icon10.gif ) will "like" a powder in that range. So, off to the store to get some 3031, I go today. More testing tomorrow.

If that doesn't work, then I suppose there will be no alternative but Bullseye (one of the fastest powders)...and very low velocity.

Oh and just as before, there was NO sign of any leading in my barrel, with any of the loads I tried.



Hah ! I love a good challenge. I shall defeat this enemy yet ! http://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Wish me luck, gentlemen (I probably NEED it).....


Anyone have any thoughts on this ???? Is my rifle just trying to drive me crazy (silly old bugger !) ? Anyone have any similar experiences ? Thanks to all. I'll report back on what I find.

[Ricochet]

As for that load working at one temperature and not at another: I'd wonder if that's not a problem with the lube you're using?

[Larry Gibson]

bcp477

Let reiterate; you are using a PB bullet. What others get with GC'd bullets is not what you will get. You are pushing that bullet to fast with all but the 8.1 gr Unique load. You don't say what lube you are using? The wrong lube at colder temps (below 40) usually spells inaccuracy. I still suggest you try 5.5, 6, 6.5 and 7 gr of Bullseye with that bullet using Javelina lube. It works for me with the PB bullets I've been using.

Larry Gibson

[RU shooter]

I second the Bullseye loads that Larry speaks of ! These work wonderfully for me with plain base and non GC'ed boolits . I have also had good results with W231 in 7.0-8.0 range , Maybe up your Unique load to 10-10.5 grs. Mine didnt shoot well till I hit 9.0 and 10.1 is my sweet spot.

[bcp477]

I am listening, fellas. I am making notes of all the advice I receive. I do hear you, Larry...and thanks for all the advice. Perhaps I AM hanging on to some forlorn hope that I can get 1500 fps out of these bullets, without exceeding their maximum permissible pressure. The numbers indicate that this is possible, with something in the 3031/ R7 range....and the info I have found indicates that others do this all the time, with PB bullets of a BHN of around 15. Certainly, that does not guarantee anything though. Sorry if it seems that I am not taking your advice. I am trying to learn - not be a pain in the a## (I guess that some things I must learn the hard way). I shall try the 3031 (I bought a pound of it today, so what the heck). If that doesn't work, then Bullseye it will be...and loads well under 1200 fps. If that transpires, I shall be happy to hear a plethora of loud "I told you so, you dummy !" comments, from all concerned....and will consider myself properly chastized.

Ah, the bullet lube !!! THAT could perhaps be the issue with the ambient temperature. DUH. I didn't think of it (growing embarrasment...face getting red). I am using Lee Liquid Alox. So, if anyone has had temperature-related issues with that lube, I'd love to hear about it.

It is supposed to be warmer here tomorrow, so I will make up more test loads tonight, using the 3031 and Unique. I will try the 8.1 grain Unique load again....and smaller charges, as well. As for the 3031, I intend to start at 18 or 19 grains and go no higher than 24 grains. What the heck, it's all in the interest of learning, right ?

Thanks again, gentlemen.

[35remington]

3031 is not gonna be cleaner, or a whole lot "safer" than 4064. Not sure if you can correctly label either as "safe" or "unsafe" with what you're doing, but you can do more to determine load suitability otherwise. At low temps and much lower pressure than it was intended to run the 3031 is as slow or slower than what I'd chance for reliability at low velocities with a plainbase bullet in that cartridge. I can't see 3031 as being suitable for very mild loads. It may be worth a try in the 1400+ fps range but I'd absolutely stay away from it at 11-1200.

One range session isn't enough to judge the value of a load, nor is a second that gives radically different results with the same powder. Such dramatically different results warrant more investigation, not rejection on the basis of two tests that needs a tiebreaker.

Given that your results the second time were bad with everything, I wouldn't reject 2400 either. Consider that something else was wrong and try again. Sounds like you intend to, but I would still throw in 2400 for another go.

I would also second the notion of a faster powder at low plainbase velocities, but 2400 should also work well too; if anything, slightly better.

To really determine what's going on, you've really got to shoot that musket. Right now, it doesn't sound like you've got enough information to draw any real conclusions yet.

I like RL7 for reduced loads but I must confess I liked the US made version better.

[Bullshop junior x2]

Unique or bullseye works good for my pitol with Boolits
Tony

[Ben]

It hasn't been mentioned yet, but how do we know the bullets are sized properly for the particular rifle that they are being fired out of ?

Ben

[bcp477]

35 Remington,

Very insightful comments - and several good points. You are certainly right in that I cannot consider that I have covered the field as regards testing any of these loads. The bad results I experienced in the second test could well, I suppose, just be due to the low temperatures (and the lube I use)....as pointed out by another poster. In any case, lots and lots of additional testing is needed. Thanks for the reality check.

As to the 3031, I do not intend to try it for very small charges....nothing smaller than 18 or 19 grains (actually, I think that I will start at 20). I am aware that it (3031) is not in the same class as faster powders such as Bullseye, Unique, or even 2400. Trying 3031 is predicated only on the hope, possibly unrealistic, that I can push these bullets to perhaps 1500 fps or so. An analysis of burn rates and the relative speed of 3031 indicates that it is safe down to charge weights of about 17.5 grains, in the 8 x 57 cartridge, without filler. As we all know, a slower powder will produce a more gentle pressure curve, less "abrupt" launch of the bullet - and may offer a chance to get 1500 fps from these PB's, without exceeding the approx. 19,000 PSI that the numbers tell me is 90 % of the maximum for a BHN 15 bullet. I don't know, it may be a dismal failure, but all I can do is try (with due care, of course). My M48 is somewhat unique in terms of it's likes and dislikes (than others I have seen).... I am not sure of what will happen.

You are also right that I shouldn't discard the 2400 (I really didn't intend to do so - I think I was just speaking from frustration). I will regroup and continue with this powder, as well. I really had hopes that 2400 would be the "perfect" powder for my situation - it seemed from the numbers to be just about right. More testing to follow.

Ben,

As for bullet size, again, a valid point. My barrel slugged to just over .323"....about .3233" to be exact, with good consistency from throat to muzzle (especially now that I have discarded the last 1.5 - 2" toward the muzzle - and then some - which was pretty badly worn). .324" is the best I have been able to find in cast bullets, without paying prices close to that of jacketed ones (what would be the point then ?)....but I am working on finding someone to do them at .325" for me. I am also looking for GC bullets, sized at .325" and of suitable weight, as well....but these seem not to be available. I am in no position to set up my own casting facility, so this is not an option.

Again, thanks a ton for the help.

[EMC45]

How about Herco or 296? I have a bunch of both. Just curious.

[Ben]

I'll bet that with a .325 gas checked bullet, you'd see a dramatic difference in everything. Maybe someone would sell you 50 or so .325 dia. gas checked to test ?

You mention above " Shooting jacketed and shooting cast". Those two statements go together about like oil and water go together.

My experience has been that your rifle's bore must be 101% super clean & free of any trace of copper deposits before any decent accuracy can be expected with cast bullets.

As we are looking for and discussing potential trouble areas for your particular rifle, I'd clean the bore with a quality copper removal bore cleaning solvent ( follow directions on the bottle ! ! ) until no greenish / blue was found on my patches. Just might make a big difference ?

My friend has a Turkish Mauser that we mounted a Williams 5 D rear aperture peep sight on. It has been glass bedded and has a very nice bore ( not new - - but slick and smooth ), I think you can see that a gas checked .325 dia bullet @ 50 yards shoots real well out of his rifle:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v494/haysb/PICT0001-8.jpg


Ben

[Three44s]

Like Ben asked ...... what about boolit fitament?

Powder is but one variable.


http://www.beartoothbullets.com/bulletselect/index.htm


On the left side bar click on book ........ the best $14 piece of postage paid reading I have found!

Three 44s

[Larry Gibson]

1500 fps eh? Well if you insist......as mentioned 3031 and slower powders are not going to be clean burners and will not give consistant ignition with this bullet/velocity. Try 4759, 4227 or 4198 with a 1 gr dacron filler. Start at 16 gr with any of them and work up in 1/2 gr increments. Also as mentioned try more Unique without the dacron as you should get up into 1400+ fps with it. Good luck.

Larry Gibson

[Shiloh]

There are too many best powders to list. Many work well for the particular application that they are used for. IMR 4198, 4759 clone, AA5744 are a few that I have used fine results. There are many others with practical applications and fine results.

Shiloh

[bcp477]

Thank you all (again) for taking the time to reply....and all of the advice.

I have an update, as I went to the range this afternoon. On this trip, I worked on loads with Unique, 2400 and 3031. Ambient temperature today is in the upper 50's.
All conditions are the same as before - i.e., the barrel was cleaned to a spotless condition before the range session...in addition, I re-cleaned the rifle thoroughly between each type of powder used....so I started each series (with each of the three powders with a clean barrel). The bullets were lubed just as before. As an aside, I mis-spoke about the bullet lube - the bullets actually are pre-lubed with a 50% Alox/ 50% beeswax lube when they come to me (I confirmed this with the manufacturer)....then I apply 1 thin coat of Liquid Alox myself. All shooting was done in the indoor range, at 50 yards. I fired many more examples of each load (a minimum of 10 for each charge weight) than before - with some of the loads, 20 per charge weight.

With Unique, I tried:

7.0, 8.0, 9.0 and 10.0 grains, no filler. Results universally sucked. I am starting to believe that Unique may be too fast for MY particular rifle - though it is TOO early to draw any firm conclusions. I will continue testing with Unique - next I will try lesser loads - probably 5 - 7 grains. This seems almost a waste of time, though...as one could probably throw the bullets faster. With this in mind, I am not at all sure that going to an even faster powder, such as Bullseye, is a good idea.

With 2400, I tried:

10.0, 11.0, 14.0, 15.0 and 16.0 grains, with no filler. 10.0 and 11.0 grains actually produced a pretty good result, the other loads sucked. I am now of the opinion that 16.0 grains is NOT the universal powder, for MY rifle, anyway. I don't think that 2400 is wrong for my rifle....but it is becoming more clear that loads (with 2400) which approach 1500 fps (16.0 grains is supposed to be that load) are in fact OVER-pressure for the bullet I am using - in MY rifle. If that is true, then 2400 is marginally too fast, for MY "picky" rifle. A light charge of 2400 seems to be OK, but I don't know what velocity 10-11 grains will produce (so what ? - that's not really important....especially for a target load). I will try loads in the vicinity of 9 to 13 grains next, possibly with some dacron filler added. I have already tested above 16 grains, with lousy results, so no need to re-visit there. Clearly, the pressure curve with 2400 exceeds the capacity of this bullet, at charges above 16 grains (and very possibly, below that, until one gets down to around 11 grains).

With 3031, I tried:

20.0, 21.0, 22.0, 23.0 grains, with no filler. Pretty good results with all, not great, but encouraging. I fired a total of 60 rounds (15 each), with these 4 charges, starting with a clean barrel. All of these 60 rounds went into an area about 5" above the target bull, centred (so windage is spot-on with no sight adjustments) - approximately 4.5 - 5" in diameter. There was a small amount of unburned powder left in the cases with the 20 and 21 grain loads - this disappeared at 22 and 23 grains. Obviously, 3031 is not too slow to make for a (possibly) suitable cast bullet powder - at least in MY rifle. Clearly, the pressure curve did not exceed the maximum for these BHN 15 bullets, and an estimation of the velocity of these loads, based on all of the information I have collected, is that I am certainly in the rough vicinity of 1200 fps....but probably not near 1500. Next, I will try 23-26 grains of this powder, possibly with a bit of dacron filler....and I may well re-visit 20-21 grains, but with filler added. The goal will be to find the upper (pressure) limit with this powder, as well as to determine if I can find a "sweet spot" as regards accuracy. I am encouraged about the 3031. No final conclusions as of yet, though, of course.

In summary, I don't think that faster powders (faster than 2400) are a good idea for MY particular rifle, in these circumstances. With another bullet, perhaps so. 2400 seems like it may be as fast as I need to go, for light target loads, but perhaps too fast for my 1500 fps goal. 3031 seems not a bad possibility at all, especially if I can find a "sweet spot" load.

Some powder between 2400 and 3031 in burn rate, I have a feeling, will turn out to be the best choice for my M48, with these bullets. So, I will look into that, as well.

The jury is still out....but I am encouraged.

[Ben]

I along with many others here on Castboolits have found that certain cast bullet designs fired from a particular rifle just WON'T SHOOT ! A different design, a different weight, a different dia., and BINGO !, it is a new day at the range and the rifle and new load combination is shooting great.

You're almost at a point where you can also say that about this particular bullet paired with this particular rifle. Maybe it is time to head in a different direction with all this..............

Maybe it is time to solicit a few gas checked bullets of a different weight, shape, dia. and design and try in your M 48 rifle. To coin a phrase from my old Grandaddy......You just might be " barking up the wrong tree " with this particular combination.

Ben

[Bear Claw]

I along with many others here on Castboolits have found that certain cast bullet designs fired from a particular rifle just WON'T SHOOT ! A different design, a different weight, a different dia., and BINGO !, it is a new day at the range and the rifle and new load combination is shooting great.

You're almost at a point where you can also say that about this particular bullet paired with this particular rifle. Maybe it is time to head in a different direction with all this..............

Maybe it is time to solicit a few gas checked bullets of a different weight, shape, dia. and design and try in your M 48 rifle. To coin a phrase from my old Grandaddy......You just might be " barking up the wrong tree " with this particular combination.

Ben

DITTO,,,,,,,,,

This is sound advice as I have found it to be true with several different guns,

It has been written in several loading manuals that you you should only change ONE variable at a time, I think you have wrung out the powders pretty well.......... " my personal fav. is 2400 btw" So a change to a GC boolit or a different design or a filler of some sort would be in order.

Question:: Do you sort your case"s , boolits , by weight, manufact. etc.
do you have access to a chrony? "they do help"
do you neck size or FL size, As to the Lee Alox I have used it for years with no trouble so far.

If it were me I would want to try a bore riding design boolit w/GC over 18 to 23 gr of 2400 with either a Dacron or cream of wheat filler... just my .02
:drinks:

[Larry Gibson]

For S&Gs just try 6.5 gr of Bullseye.

Larry Gibson

[runfiverun]

13 gr unique will get you about 1500 with that pb boolit and if you are buying your boolits
the lube will kill you at lower temps, you will also want to run some boolits down your bore
to kinda condition it then check what you have.
iwas shooting my boys 7.5x55 with 165,s at 1533 yes over the chrono
p/b 13 unique temp 23 degrees

my mix is just a bit harder than #2, and my lube is just a bit softer than what most comercial
casters use

[bcp477]

I just came from the range. This discussion is fascinating to me...and I think that the results that I have just gotten really reinforce that there is a HUGE variation in rifles of the same make and model. I think that I may have the weirdest M48 of all. Anyway, as this (finding an accurate load with these bullets, in my rifle) has become almost an obsession for me (not really, I'm just really enjoying the process)....I prepared some more loads last night....from information I gleaned from yesterday's shooting session. Same range (an indoor one)...temperatures in the high 50's, just like yesterday, spotlessly clean barrel, same lube, etc. etc., etc.

I loaded a bunch of rounds using 10.0 and 11.0 grains of 2400, with cotton wool filler. The results were worse than without any filler. I stated in one of my previous posts, that I thought that 2400 might be marginally too fast for my rifle, with these bullets. I am pretty SURE that Unique (and powders faster still) are too fast, now. Well, 10.0-11.0 grains of 2400 produced not too bad results without filler. With the filler added, accuracy definitely went away. So, it seems pretty obvious that the filler versions of these loads are over-pressure for this bullet. All previous LARGER loads of 2400 were no good, regardless - so I am pretty confident that I was right - 2400 IS marginally too fast for my rifle - with these bullets. It probably would be fine with other bullets, I don't know.

OK, the crux of today's testing.... I thought that 3031 might offer a good chance of success...but others have almost universally poo-pooed the idea. My results from today speak for themselves. About 25 grains of IMR-3031, with about .75 grains of cotton wool added as a filler, gave consistent (20 shots, in 5 shot strings) results of 2" or smaller groups, at 50 yards. The groups were all in the form of a nice little horizontal string...2" or less long, but no more than 0.5" tall. They were even pretty close to the bull, once I lowered my rear sight a bit (about 1.5" high and an inch or so to the right of centre). The only exceptions were 2 flyers total, which I think were due to the operator (me) - I am sure that one of them was as such. The cases came out of the rifle pretty clean, indicating that the pressure is enough to seal the bore fairly effectively (all other weaker cast loads I've tried have produced dirty/ sooty case necks). There was NO unburned powder left in the cases, whereas at 20-21-22 grains of this powder, without filler, there was a bit. The report and the felt recoil of this load were definitely greater than with around 8 grains of Unique, which chrono'd at about 1200 fps in this rifle (also with these bullets). The smell was much less objectionable than with the dacron filler (an aquaintance at the range suggested I switch to cotton - and he was right). So, I feel safe in saying that this load produces roughly 1400 or 1500 fps....as a guess. I will test with a chronograph, once I have settled on a final load - that will tell the tale. I have not yet cleaned the barrel, so I cannot say as to whether there is any leading....however, the loads I shot yesterday with the 3031 (as well as the other powders) did not produce any.

What can be concluded ? 3031 is NOT too slow or unsuitable for cast loads, at least not in my weirdo rifle. This bullet is NOT unsuitable for my rifle, even sized .324"....and plain-based as it is. Finally, it apparently IS possible to drive a plain-based bullet of a BHN of about 15 faster than about 1200 fps, with pretty good results.

The "moral of the story", if there is one, is that every rifle is different....and clearly MY particular rifle is VERY different. I have decided, as I write this, that it's official name shall be WEIRDO. I've never named a gun before....but I think this one fits.

As for the other powders I have tried..... Unique ain't happenin'....I'll find someone who wants what I have left. I'm glad I haven't bought any Bullseye - it probably wouldn't work for me, either. SR4759 - I might try some, at some point. 2400 I will probably forego - it doesn't seem to be happenin', either. I might try something else between 2400 and 3031, such as IMR-4227. Right now, I will concentrate at 24.5 - 26.0 grains of IMR-3031, with cotton filler, to see if I can refine my load, while considering all of the options.

To politely answer those who keep suggesting that I try many different designs and weights of bullets, with gas checks....DUH. I have been all along (and am continuing to do so) looking for just such a variety of bullets to try - but they AIN'T out there. Cast bullets for the 8 x 57 are few and far between. Since I cannot set up my own casting facility (and don't really care to, anyway)..that is not an option. I do intend to try other bullets, such as the Lee 175 grain one, if/ when I manage to find them at the right size (.324" seems OK, now....but, I'd like to try .325"). I will try others if/ when I can find suitable ones...but I see NO logic in paying upwards of $20.00 per hundred for them, when I can get the jacketed ones that do VERY well for me...for only about $4.00 more. So, please stop casually flipping off the suggestion that I should simply try the broad selection of 8mm bullets out there - because there is NO such broad selection, not pre-cast, anyway.

Finally, I wish to again thank everyone who has taken the time and interest to reply - and to attempt to help me with this. I have now a rather thick notebook, full of notes on this subject....and I have made note of ALL suggestions given by you guys, even the ones that haven't panned out for me. I put the perhaps atypical results I have gotten down to my odd-ball rifle. I have no doubt that everyone's suggestions are/ were valid - they just don't seem to work with my gun. Oh well, we all knew they are unique, didn't we ? I will continue to post my results and observations - and no doubt I will have lots and lots more questions. In the meantime, I will come back to this website as often as possible - it's a great place.

Thanks again !!!!

[felix]

If you like cotton, use the lint from the dryer. Chances are good that the staple length is quite short when compared to the medical balls. ... felix

[Ben]

bcp477

Your first post states :

" I would be keenly interested in the opinions of you learned gentlemen, on this subject."

I'm not certain who has implied that there is a wide variety of availability of different diameters and different styles of 8 mm cast bullets for you to pick from. I don't believe that I did in my replies to your seemingly " keen interest " in some of our thoughts on your accuracy problems with your rifle.

I did state that people on this board might be willing to give you 50 or so bullets of a different style to test. Many of us suggested viable alternatives that we felt would allow you to achieve accuracy with your rifle with cast bullets.

As far as me " casually flipping off any suggestions" to you from this point forward.... , I don't think you'll have to be concerned about that .

[bcp477]

Ben,

I, in NO way, intended to insult anyone, suggest that their advice was nonsense, etc. etc. etc....and I don't believe that anything I said can be reasonably taken that way. I merely made a valid point. Why would that be something that would provoke anger ? Obviously, you take umbrage at my comment regarding "casual advice". That was NOT directed at you, because YOU clearly did not throw out suggestions without reading my posts, as some others did. I am grateful for ALL of the suggestions, as I stated several times, including yours and even including those that were made without reading my posts. I certainly can't make use of all of the suggestions, because some of them are not applicable to my particular situation, or in fact have been covered already. I am still grateful, nevertheless, that someone took the time and interest to make them - as I HAVE said. So what ? All I did was clarify that, as regards the bullet availability situation. As for your suggestion about some kind souls offering me a few bullets to test - a great idea, which I would be happy to accept (though I would insist on reimbursing the donor for all expenses incurred) - but no one has come forward. So be it, no problem.

Yet you are, if I understand the tone of your last post, as well as your last comment....essentially "writing me off".....or, to put it another way.... telling me to f&%k off. Very nice. SORRY if I offended you (though I don't see how).... but, have it your way. For the record, I have NO " problem with you - or anyone else here.

[Hipshot]

Tried C.E. Harris's load of 16 gr. (alot closer to 17 gr. in my Lyman Pistol Powder measure with drums) in (2) different rifles---#1 Pre 64 M70 Win. FWT. in .30-06 and a custom .358 Win. on a mauser action.

The 06 used Lee 180 gr. cast (mold# ?) I cast them years ago from a borrowed mold.

.358----Grungy, wrinkled GC 240 gr. Lyman bullets SOMEONE elso cast, got/found them years ago.

50 yd. groups with the 17 gr. 2400, Rem LR primers gave me 1 hole groups with both loads----not every group but BY FAR the majority,
Previous attemps with other powders ran 1 1/2-2" at 50 yds.

Hipshot

[Ben]

bcp477

I took the time to go back and read all 31 post on this one.
Not one person said anything ( other than yourself ) about there being a broad wide easily available selection of 8 mm cast bullets easily available to you.

But then you make the statement:

" So, please stop casually flipping off the suggestion that I should simply try the broad selection of 8mm bullets out there - because there is NO such broad selection, not pre-cast, anyway."

As to your irritation that people haven't read your post thoroughly, I've made 547 post on this board, I don't expect everyone to read my post thoroughly before they make any replies to any of my post, some responses to my post are to the point, accurate, and meaningful, some aren't ...that is part of this process , their comments including yours are what ever they choose them to be.

Most of us on this board however wouldn't respond back to another board member with f&%k off." .

No, I haven't written you off.

To go one step further & prove that I haven't written you off, I'd be glad to send you 50 ea., .325 gas checked , 8 mm cast bullets. You'll owe me nothing.

Send me an address ( via. PM )to ship to.

Ben

[runfiverun]

good job ben
and i believe that most everyone also advised him to use a bit more
of the powders he was using.
he did basically what was advised just his own way

lets not mention attitude

[SaMerch666]

bcp477
I read the posts and it looks like you never tried AA5744. That is a shame, great powder as of last count There are 25 National Records held with AA5744 in the CastBullet Military Classes.
Just My Take Scott

[Bear Claw]

Ya know guy"s he said the bbl had been shortened, I wonder if it could be the crown? Was the front sight put back on straight? Bent BBL? Loose stock or stock screw"s???

Really,,, It could be some or all or none of the above, Hell I have not seen or shot the gun and don't know him so it could be anything!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I once saw a guy who couldn't hit anything w/his m1 garand, everyone else who shot it had no problems,, turns out he was looking at one of the sight EARS instead of the sight blade!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! some people jeeez!!!!!:roll:

[Ben]

I wondered about the barrel crown also ? ?

Ben

[mroliver77]

Even though he states the barrel is .324 the "throat" could be huge. I am glad he stuck to heis guns so to speak and pursued the 3031 angle. Looks like it might pay off for him. It does look like fillers might have saved a sad combination. I understand finding a cheap boolit and then being frustrated that it dont shoot and wanting badly to use it because of price. I was frustrated just reading through the topic at his eagerness to write off tried and true powders. I did think the one comment was made with the attitude of "Thanks,for nothing" but mebbe I read bpc wrong. I find it hard to make myself clear sometimes on the written forum. I was rooting for the 3031 powder as it is one of my favorites. ;)
J

[Bear Claw]

Even though he states the barrel is .324 the "throat" could be huge. I am glad he stuck to heis guns so to speak and pursued the 3031 angle. Looks like it might pay off for him. It does look like fillers might have saved a sad combination. I understand finding a cheap boolit and then being frustrated that it dont shoot and wanting badly to use it because of price. I was frustrated just reading through the topic at his eagerness to write off tried and true powders. I did think the one comment was made with the attitude of "Thanks,for nothing" but mebbe I read bpc wrong. I find it hard to make myself clear sometimes on the written forum. I was rooting for the 3031 powder as it is one of my favorites. ;)
J

Well said and quite correct,,, It is hard sometimes to determine a person"s frame of mind by the written word, and we all know hasty words get in here all the time.
3031 is a very good powder but imho on a PB boolit it wont work as well as unique, red dot , 2400 and the like, for example wc860 is a very good powder but it is very SLOWWWWW burning leaving unburnt powder in the bore
will it work? yes work well? depends on what you are willing to put up with
IE: unburnt powder in the bore that = waste,,, extra cleaning time = less shooting time,,,so on and so-forth........

He say"s he can not cast,, I respect that,, I am sure he has his reason"s
However he could save himself a lot of grief if he would, If it is because of money I really respect that, but he has spent some cash on all the powder boolits and primers + gas to and from the range etc:

So with this in mind and not wanting to pi$$ anyone off,,, To bpc477 you are on the right track but perhaps a read through lyman"s cast boolit book or Lee"s reloading book is in order for you, Lee"s has a very good chapter on cast + velocity + pressure + powder selection + burn rates for powder"s

Also if you are taking the time to re lube the boolits why not put on GC"s using a lee boolit sizer and then you could pump up the volume w/3031 , 4759 , or whatever ya want.

There is a lot more but I want to see if some others will chime in...

:castmine::drinks:

[bcp477]

Again, thanks guys. I try to get back to this site (and thread) daily, so I can make more notes of all the good suggestions.

I assure all, there was absolutely no intended "attitude" in my previous posts. I do concede that it may have looked that way, however. Regardless, my apologies to ALL, in this regard.

As to other aspects, such as the rifle's throat and crown....I have considered those items. Both are OK, the crown especially. I carefully re-crowned the barrel when I shortened it...and the rifle shoots my jacketed loads better than it did before - no joke. So, it isn't that. The throat has the expected amount of wear for an old barrel, but doesn't look too bad. I have always used relatively mild loads, usually loaded to the lower end of the listings, rather than the upper. The results from slugging the barrel have never changed (at least, not that I can tell with my micometer). So, I am of the opinion that I just happen to have one of the more "unusual" M48 floating around.

As for discounting powders that do work well for others....this is only because they don't work for my rifle, at least not with the bullets I am trying. No "attitude" intended there, either.

Some or all of the difficulties I have been having may soon be moot, anyway...as I have in hand a really pristine take-off barrel...and I will likely rebarrel the rifle within a few month's time, anyway. This "new" barrel slugs at just under .322" (and looks as if it has never been mounted before) ....so it MAY be a much better prospect for cast loads...or any loads.

[jim4065]

bcp477,

I suppose that we're all interested in why you can't (or won't) cast your own? It seems somewhat limiting, and I (for one) get at least as much enjoyment from casting as shooting. (God help me - never thought I'd say that.) Don't have an 8mm so I can't give you any samples, but as far as availability and variety goes you might want to contact The Bullshop, http://bullshop.gunloads.com/ one of our sponsers. I'd be willing to bet he could help out with some choices of boolits - and all sized to .325 for you.

You obviously have a carefully planned testing program with lots of documentation - so there's no doubt you'll get there somehow. Hope the new barrel pans out. I'd appreciate hearing how it turns out - kinda like a soap opera - but no offense intended. :drinks:

[bcp477]

OK....why am I not in a position to get into casting my own bullets ? Since people are curious...... (remember, YOU asked).....

First, I had a stroke about 4 years ago...and I am partially disabled. So, mucking about with melted lead probably wouldn't be the safest idea for me. I do not, even today, have all of my strength back, as well as full coordination (truth is, that will never improve). A fact I have to face.

Second, as I was self-employed at the time (I still am, sort of)...I happened to have NO health insurance. Consequently, my health problems and long rehabilitation cost me everything I owned (everything of consequence, anyway). So, at this point, I am reduced to living in a small apartment - not a good place to start a bullet foundry.

Third, my "means" are limited - and my earning power ain't what it used to be.



Are you sorry you asked ?

It's OK - I am NOT looking for any sympathy.

Those are the facts, however.

[jim4065]

Thanks for the response. Not sorry I asked as long as it doesn't bother you to answer. More power to ya if you can keep shooting after that. I have a mold that I bought for the 32 Special that casts kinda big - if you'd like to try some of the boolits I'll be happy to mail them out - gratis. Send a PM if interested. :-D

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

I've had good luck with Red Dot.
It is intentionally "bulky".

10 gns in .30-30 behind 170 gn FP GC Lee was real nice.

10 was not enough in .303 British to seal the case tight and I got smoked cases.

[chevyiron420]

guy's, i have never been one for fillers, but, i bet cream of wheet may do well here. what do you'all think? i dont know why but there is something about cotton in a boolited round that scares me. i have used a tuft of it in fireforming loads, but not boolited ones. maybe its fine?? i have never used COW before, but have read alot here about its accuracy improving possibilitys and how it acts like a gas check. i bet it would let him bring that load of 3031 to the speed he wants and protect the base of the boolit. what say you?-phil:castmine:

[stillhunter]

For me, 3031 has been a consistantly good performer in 30-06, 30-30, and 30-40. No magnum primers, either. Did you clean your bore between strings? It's best to do this when testing. Eliminates another variable.

[kjg]

Ah, bcp477, hey partner not to rub ya wrong here, but casting the projectilies, is nothing really to worry about as you take proper precations, I for one like you have absolutly no insurance, I am only 40 years of age and have a 8 year old daughter, and have had 2 hear attacks, cancer, two complete knee replacements, and a wife who has just come hom from a two month stay in icu and just got that bill well needless to say casting has helped keep my sanity, and helps me teach our daughter how to add subtract multiplt and divid ( my spelling sucks), so in what ever you do remember the advise givin by us has been hard won through trial and error, I am not flaming you or jumping down your neck, just showing you the possibliities, and the fun casting is and the rewards also gained. kjg

[Kuato]

Hiya fellas. IMR 3031, 4064, W860 & 5010 have all worked for me with cast pills. The W860 can be a lil dirty but has given me really nice groups in the 8mm Mauser & 7.62x54 Russian.

I'm not a fan of pistol powders in a rifle cartridge so I like to use bulky powders to get load density without fillers..

[stocker]

I have the RCBS 32-170 Gas Check version of that mould. It is really designed as a 32 special mould and that is what I got it for originally but I use it in my 8mm Brno M21. I'm wondering how deep you are seating the bullet in the case. Perhaps it was mentioned but I don't recall it. I seat mine in 8 mm cases to the the top of the lube groove not to the crimp groove. There is still quite a bit of throat left that is unfilled but it is a major improvement over seating to the crimp groove. Running a similar alloy to yours I can maintain quite decent 100 yard accuracy to about 1800-1850. It deteriorates beyond that speed. The gas check makes quite a difference however and I am sizing at .324. The BHN of mine is usually 14 after a weeks aging.

There are probably better mould choices than this one for the 8mm, the trick for you will be finding someone who is casting them commercially. You may have to look for other suppliers. Try Wayne Doudna (Customcastbullets). He sometimes has moulds that are out of the mainstream casting companies line. Perhaps some one else here can give you better contact info for him.

One other comment. I saw you referred to a load as being over pressure for your rifle. I tend to think it's over velocity which of course is a product of pressure but you probably have not reached the pressure limit of your rifle. Different contexts probably. I'm sure the result is the same as far as the bullet goes.

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

No such thing as "best" anything. Just different. Different applications require different powders.

[clodhopper]

guy's, i have never been one for fillers, but, i bet cream of wheet may do well here. what do you'all think? i dont know why but there is something about cotton in a boolited round that scares me. i have used a tuft of it in fireforming loads, but not boolited ones. maybe its fine?? i have never used COW before, but have read alot here about its accuracy improving possibilitys and how it acts like a gas check. i bet it would let him bring that load of 3031 to the speed he wants and protect the base of the boolit. what say you?-phil:castmine:

My limited experience with fillers left me with the idea never shoot up wind. All that cream of wheat gets airborne and gets in your eyes. Coffee grounds smelled kinda good. Dacron melted and left goopy deposits in the bore, perhaps more powder would fix that problem.
Just easyer to do with out

[Andy_P]

If I could only choose one powder it would be Unique.

Can work in every cartridge imaginable - won't necessarily give the highest velocity, nor the best accuracy, but would be good in anything. Not position sensitive, needs no fillers, the list goes on.

[stocker]

Check out Beartooth Bullets for a gas checked 170 grain.

[Uncle Jaque]

My Dad used to swear by IMR 4759 (I guess it's something else now?) for cast bullets. He left me a couple of cans of it, too.
It's probably a good 40 years old anyway, but been kept dry and sealed in can.

I have seen 4759 mentioned here in passing, but not much in the way of suggested loads or results which I would like to see.

Just loaded up a bunch of 185 gr. cast GC Spitzers in 7.62X54R over 20 gr. of it, extrapolating data from 7.7 Jap.
I don't see a lot of cast bullet data out there (or in my loading data collection) for the Russian so had to kind of wing it.

Got a good deal on a Century Arms "Threefer" of "Good Cracked" M-24/47 Yugo Mausers, which I'd like to feed; would like to play around to see what they can do with cast 8mm boolits.

Pappy left me a couple of cigar boxes of them, too.
I imagine that after about 40 years they're pretty well hardened up by now, wouldn't you think?

One of those rifles was really cherry:

....http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v53/UncleJaque/ARMS/RIFLE%20-%20MAUSER/M24X47/M2447bench-cropd.jpg

Fully refurbed with a brand new barrel.

Can you break in a new barrel with cast Boolits with the same number of rounds as it would take using jacketed? I've got about 250 more rounds to go on this musket before it settles in, I reckon. Shows really good potential just as it is though.

bcp - I wouldn't pitch the Unique just yet; it's the cat's pajamas for cast pistol loads all the way from .32ACP right up to the big .44 Magnum and possibly beyond. Don't know how many people load for those .50 cal. hand cannon but just looking at one makes my wrist hurt!

Unique was my Pappy's favorite pistol powder and it remains as mine too.