Pewter or lead ?

[paralaska]

We don't have a lot of pewter up here . . . I'm not sure what pewter looks or feels like . . .
Anyway . . . I found a candle holder in a thrift shop . . . It looked promising, so I took it home. It was fairly heavy, and I remember seeing in the pewter thread where a lot of the stuff was pewter with a interior filler to give it weight . . . So I started breaking it apart. It was soft and solid all the way thru. If I had to guess, I would say it was all solid soft lead . . . But . . . Having never seen pewter . . . I don't know for sure.
Do they make candle holders out of lead?
There were no makers marks anywhere on it.

[bangerjim]

I have NEVER seen a candle holder made of pure Pb. It rubs off on your hands REAL bad (black), is VERY toxic, and is waaaaay too soft.

Pewter (newer) is mostly Sn and much lighter than Pb. It could be home-made by someone out of lead becuase it is so easy to cast. Everything I have ever found/bought/own has a hallmark on the bottom. Even modern foodware is marked "pewter".

Many candlesticks (Sn and Ag) have lead weights in the bottom because the stuff is just too light and tends to be top-heavy with a candle in it.

[Yodogsandman]

If you have a way to melt it down and know the temperature when it does melt, tin will melt at a much lower temp than lead. I think tin melts at about 488*F and lead is about 580*F+.

Keep your eyes out for more! Good luck!

[Deadpool]

You could measure the displacement and weigh it, come up with a density.. That could give you an idea before attempting to destroy it with a torch to test the melting temperature. If pewter it should melt pretty easily.

[Retumbo]

There are a lot of silver plated lead candle holders out there.

[Beesdad]

There are a lot of silver plated lead candle holders out there.

How are they marked... Do you have any photos ?

[Retumbo]

I don't recall, next time i am in a thrift store I will snap a pic.

[bangerjim]

Most of those siverplate pieces that I have seen many times are either brass or pot metal (various alloys of zinc), not lead, as the base metal. If you are really lucky, you will find silver plated pewter, but you may be getting into collectable antiques then! READ UP......B4 you melt!!!!!!

[Retumbo]

I have seen a lot of silver plated candle holders and plated lead salt and pepper shakers on Ebay too

[Beesdad]

Most of those siverplate pieces that I have seen many times are either brass or pot metal (various alloys of zinc), not lead, as the base metal. If you are really lucky, you will find silver plated pewter, but you may be getting into collectable antiques then! READ UP......B4 you melt!!!!!!

yes I see the silver plate over the pewter base metal frequently.. But I must be missing the lead ones..

[bangerjim]

I have seen a lot of silver plated candle holders and plated lead salt and pepper shakers on Ebay too

And you trust the idiot sellers on ebay to know the difference between lead, zinc, and brass?

I sure don't.

And who would use salt out of a lead shaker??????????? Oh....mabe that's the sellers on ebay!

HA........ha.

[Retumbo]

Glad one of us thinks he knows it all! I bow to your supremacy.

[imashooter2]

I've never seen or heard of silver plated lead until you pronounced it so. Do you have any examples to show us?

[bangerjim]

Glad one of us thinks he knows it all! I bow to your supremacy.

Where on God's green earth did I ever say I knew it all. You must be reading waaaaaay too much into my post above!!!!!!!

I DO know there are a lot of idiots on ebay that try to sell anything they can get their hands on to turn a buck. They see something that looks sorta kinda like what they have and.......BoOM........up it goes for auction. With the wrong description. Buyer Beware!

I deal in antiques all the time and have a pretty good handle on how things were made. You may find some Chicom carp out there that is plated lead. Remember life is cheap over there. They do not worry about lead poisoning.

Brass and pot metal seem to be the common base metals for silver and gold plating. I have seen some plated pewter stuff, but not that often. I prefer the bare olde antique pewterware myself. I do NOT melt it down!!!!! Most of the modern food service and other stuff is not really worth anything but the Sn metal content. Unless it is a signed artist piece ( some are highly collectable).

Good luck in the search for Sn! (at a reasonable $$)

bangerjim

[jonp]

And you trust the idiot sellers on ebay to know the difference between lead, zinc, and brass?

I sure don't.

And who would use salt out of a lead shaker??????????? Oh....mabe that's the sellers on ebay!

HA........ha.
What do you think you shake lead salt out of???;)

[bangerjim]

What do you think you shake lead salt out of???;)


Last time I checked, none of my chef's cookbook recipes call for "lead salt"! YUUUUCK!

I know the Romans made a sweet drink out of lead.....look where they ended up!! And I have been to Bath, England and the Roman baths that were heavily laden with Pb and other elemental metals that created mental disorders.

Many heavy metals (Pb, Hg, etc) were widely used in the olden daze in medical treatments and scientific experiments without any regard to human safety.

Thanks.........but I will dispense my table salt from my antique solid silver shakers. ( the wife likes the sea salt grinders she gets at Costco!)

Remember, the human body requires 1500-2300 mg of NaCl per day per the medical community experts.....minus the Pb! Ha....ha!

And the reason pewter (poor man's silver) became popular in the past is poorer people got "trench mouth" from eating out of unsanitary wooden "trenchers", wooden food bowls and platters that held all kinds of disease. If they could even afford metalware, it was generally pewter.


banger

[Deadpool]

I know the Romans made a sweet drink out of lead.....look where they ended up!!

They used a lead coin to "sweeten" wine in homes.

Columella describes boiling of grapes in a lead vessel, though, to impart sweetness. But they also sometimes blended the sweet unfermented grape must with wine for sweetness, or added honey.

What was the drink, if not wine?

[Beesdad]

I've never seen or heard of silver plated lead until you pronounced it so. Do you have any examples to show us?


I requested a photo in post #6..,,..

[paralaska]

Well . . . I got my lee hardness tester in the mail and tested the candle holder that started this thread. As stated in my origional post, it feels, looks and cuts like lead. It tested @ 12 bhn which is the same as my CWWs that I also tested. Since Pewter should be somewhere around 23 bhn . . . I' m guessing that the candle holder is very similar to CWW alloy. BTW . . . I also tested some "Cast Performance" 325 grain, hard cast, gas checked bullets, . . . And they came in at 15 bhn. . .

[bangerjim]

There are several compositions of pewter. The ratios of Sb and Cu vary the hardness.

One example:
Composition: 92% Tin (Sn); 6% Antimony (Sb); 2% Copper (Cu)
Density: 0.263 lb / in3
Casting Temperature Range: 525-600F
Hardness, as cast (Bhn): 23
It sounds like your stick is made from some "mystery" metal. Does it look commercial cast or maybe homemade in a shop class from WW's?

In one of the shop classes I had in HS, we learned sand casting and used WW's to cast objects that the instructor had molds for. Could be a possibility?

bangerjim

[RogerDat]

I would still guess toward high tin lead alloy if not pewter. Have heard that a hardness tester has a hard time being accurate on thin metal. Hardness is only one data point. How does it melt is another, high tin melts at a lower temp. and tends to go to a liquid very fast once it hits melt temp. WW's can have chunk sitting in a puddle of molten WW, tin tends to go fast when it does go liquid. If you have a thermometer the temp it solidifies at from its molten state is another data point.

Banger Jim is correct lead on its own would turn black and turn ones hands black from touching it. Would take a fair amount of tin to overcome that.

Pewter is typically over 85% tin with some copper and fair amount of antimony giving an alloy that is very hard. 60% to 50% tin with lead would also have a BHN of around 13 - 15 and might be enough tin to overcome the "black" effect of plain lead.

[paralaska]

No . . . It was very nicely done with top, bottom and middle having brass rims. It definitely did not look homemade. But . . . There were no makers marks anywhere on it and I bent, then cut the stem very easily with a pair of dikes. I first put a torch to the base and it immediately melted a hole thru it. The piece I hardness tested was about 1" diameter and solid all the way through.

130472130473130474

[Cowboy_Dan]

I don't know how to check or if it even is a possibility, but maybe bismuth?

[big bore 99]

Might be zinc die cast?

[jsizemore]

It looks like a thin layer over a base metal. Can you peel the outer "skin" off the base metal? It would make sense that somebody cast a base form from lead or pot metal and then dipped in tin/pewter for a finish. Tin/pewter has a lower melt temp then the lead so you don't have to worry about messing the base form. Add the flared base and candle holder with a little solder and heat and you have a candlestick. I'd see if the outer "skin" will peel off then a specific gravity test of the "skin" and a chunk of the base metal.

[Deadpool]

Might be zinc die cast?

Zinc won't melt like that. And if it did melt that fast, there'd be white smoke billowing.

[bangerjim]

That is why we run our casting pots at a lower temp......to keep Zn weights from meltihg. Zn does NOT melt that easy.

banger

[bangerjim]

Not being able to touch and feel it, I cannot tell for sure, but you many have, in your desparate quest for a little Sn, destroyed a potentially collectable piece of metal ware worth far more than the little Sn you will derive from it. I deal in antiques and metal ware on a regular basis and always research pieces in-depth. The lack of markings and hallmarks is definitely puzzling.

It it hard to tell exactly what is WAS worth.

bangerjim

[jsizemore]

OH NO! He destroyed the gold mine.

[bangerjim]

.......and poisoned the well and shot the pack animals!!!!!!


:bigsmyl2:

[paralaska]

I think it was 2 bucks . . . And I'm pretty sure it wasn't a lost treasure. There was no "outer skin", but it may have some varnish or something . . . I can scratch it with a fingernail and reveal the silver color metal. I'm going to melt it down and cast an ingot . . . When I do so . . . I'll try to determine the melting temperature . . .

[RogerDat]

That is pretty thick. I would be surprised if propane torch applied to lead that thick would "immediately melt a hole in it".

When you melt it and make your ingot if it seems to melt like a tin alloy (as prev. described) and at a temp consistent with having tin here is what I would do.

Save out some "splats" or small dollops that you can weigh. Take a small batch of WW/Lead bullet alloy put in a measured weight of dollops or splats into the pot. Download the lead alloy calculator application if you have not already. You will use that to plug in your normal casting lead and the tin content of the unknown to try an experiment.

Start with an amount of unknown that IF this unknown is say 80% tin would give you about 2% tin in the pot according to the alloy calculator. Cast a few as normal. Does it appear to have better mold fill out than normal? Nice crisp lube grooves and sharper base edges?
IF NOT
Throw the already cast back in and let the pot reach casting temp again then add enough dollops or splats of unknown to give 2% tin if the unknown is 60% tin. Repeat casting, check for better fill out.

REPEAT until the percentage of tin you use for the unknown in the alloy calculator that should yield 2% tin in the cast boolit seems to be having the effect that 2% tin would have.

Once you can see better fill out in the cast boolits set them aside and hardness test them in a week. If the hardness is good for your purpose you now know what amount of the unknown to add per pound to get a better cast at a known hardness. After all is that not the point of adding pewter or tin in general? The results, it is just easier if you start with a known alloy. Even then one might work down a bit to use the least amount of expensive alloy to get acceptable results. Lots of folks go with 1% tin or 1.5% tin.

Once you have a fairly good idea that the unknown metal has tin in it all you really care about is how much of it to add to how many pounds of bullet lead yields a nicer fill out with crisper edges. Unless you can get it gunned to know the exact alloy all you can do is figure out how to use it to improve your casting.

Hopefully what you have is some sort of cheap "soft" pewter that was made without much antimony or copper but a good amount of tin. I think Banger Jim has messed around with bismuth more than most so maybe he can advise on how likely this is and how to determine or address that.

Do have to say not having a mark is not common but people have reported it in items that turned out to be pewter or close to it. Not sure how one goes about figuring out the antique value of something without being able to determine origin from hallmark. Would have to find an expert on styles and periods I guess.

From the pictures it currently looks like scrap rather than an antique, I don't know antiques but me I would not bother to list it on eBay with that picture. Make more sense to shoot it. Decided long ago the only two values scrounged pewter has is either in the pot or the wife wants to keep it. Might try and track down something with a little research if it seemed unusual.

[bangerjim]

Hallmarks and maker's marks are key in ID'ing collectables and antiques. Design is also very useful. I have several books that I use. And there is a wealth of photographic information on the net about hallmarks and markings. Forget EvilBay. Most on there know absolutely nothing and are just trying to land a sucker and turn a quick buck.

[RogerDat]

Hallmarks and maker's marks are key in ID'ing collectables and antiques. Design is also very useful. I have several books that I use. And there is a wealth of photographic information on the net about hallmarks and markings. Forget EvilBay. Most on there know absolutely nothing and are just trying to land a sucker and turn a quick buck.

Lot of information on hallmark and markings but finding information on stuff without that would be a challenge. Then you really have to know what to ask Google about form, materials etc. to have any hope of locating confirmation that an item is one thing or another. I like watching Antiques Roadshow but those experts often identify the age and origin of items by things I did not know existed or had no idea what they were called.

Oh yes Evilbay where every dented, battered, hallmarked piece of pewter is worth at least twice what it costs at the local antique store. Even if it is a $4 mug inscribe deeply with "Congratulation Joe Smith 1978" it still must be worth at least $20 because it is English Pewter and in such good shape.

[bangerjim]

Knowing antiques is a learned skill involvoing MANY years of scrounging, studying, reading, feeling, touching. I have been in the antiques market venue since 1965 and have a wealth of personal knowledge about many types of collectables and antiques. I am NOT talking guns here.

My library is full of reference books on just about every branch and type of item from the bye-gone daze. In recent decades the internet has proven a good 2nd source for info. NOT EBAY. Or those other idiot auction sites that make you pay a fee to see pricies and info. I only use one of those for antique clocks. That site and the over 5 dozen antique clock books give me a ready reference to go to when I do not know from memory. Same with glassware, lamps, figurines, tools, china plates, flatware.

Metalware is the same way. The piece the OP has probably was not worth much, but one never knows. The goal of this discussion is to alert people on here not familiar with antiques (besides guns) and to go slow when considering melting down some unknown vintage item just fo a bit of silly tin.

Good luck in your search for tin. You may just find a "goldmine" in antiques someday!!!!!! I have.

banger

[RogerDat]

Well Banger all the OP needs to do is....
put in about 50 years of study and build up a library of reference books and they will be all set.:kidding:

It is good to consider a quick search when you find an unusual piece of pewter or totally new hallmark. Much better to sell that 1# of pewter for $100 or even $50 than melt it down. Even eBay can give you a clue. If you find some item there with a Buy It Now button for a fairly substantial price it might be worth following up with other sources to find out the actual value. eBay is more a yellow caution flag than a source for values.

The post you made on the high value of type metal made to stamp decorative border having a much higher collector value than letters and being worth a good deal more than the alloy value is another heads up worth remembering.

[bangerjim]

Yes, "printer's orniments" as they are called, were fewer and farther between than the many different fonts of type a typical shop would have. Since they were not used nearly as much as the "bread and "butter" letters, many shops did not even have them. Shops that printed fancy handbills, labels, and stationary used them. Not so much a newspaper shop.

[Retumbo]

Hmmmmmm?

E.P. LEAD
133562

Hmmmmm? Salt & Pepper shaker

133561

[RogerDat]

Hmmmmmm?

E.P. LEAD


Hmmmmm? Salt & Pepper shaker



At least according to this article that "EP Lead" stands for Electro Plated...... lead weighted but the lead is someplace within the metal that is plated and encapsulated, not itself plated. Just using lead someplace instead of petrified yak dung to keep it upright.

http://www.smpub.com/ubb/Forum20/HTML/000094.html

Normally written as "EP, Lead Weighted". I guess so you don't think it has all that weight from being silver or something.

[Retumbo]

http://pottery.yobunny.com/index.php?topic=10355.0


... it seems that lead can be electroplated. I found some patents for the process and some modern firms who do it for various things so I imagine it was done for fancy goods as well.

http://home.golden.net/~eloker/birds.htm


...My shakers are silver-plated over lead. I don't know how safe it would be to actually put salt and pepper in them, but I'm not going to take the chance. It looks like there's no plating on the inside, so it would be salt and pepper touching lead.

[RogerDat]

http://pottery.yobunny.com/index.php?topic=10355.0



http://home.golden.net/~eloker/birds.htm

You left out part of the quote in that first bit, the end which is sort of significant
.... I imagine it was done for fancy goods as well. I wish I could find a reference that proved it though. http://pottery.yobunny.com/Smileys/classic/undecided.gif I'll keep looking. Seems a long way from definitive.

Second I have to point out that the "birds" in your one link are the same shakers described in the article I found. The one described as electro plated and weighted with lead. Based on pictures of the hallmark and stamping. As opposed to the link you provided which has no such information, only a dead link to an auction site of what one person says they look like the same item.

The presumed lead salt & pepper shakers have an opinion expressed that the EP means electro plated, but the OP only thinks they are lead, found what looked like the same thing on an auction site where they were described as lead. We all know those action site descriptions are at least as accurate as published load data from powder manufactures. <-purple font but in a nice grinning really more tongue in cheek purple than sarcastic purple.

There is one post where they "think" they plated lead BUT the links provided on plating in following post do not support that. They state that lead was used as the anode because it was not consumed in a process where the electroplating solution contains the plating material. The link to plating lead mentions "lead" one time (3rd paragraph) and not in the context of being itself plated. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electroplating

The antique forums seem to have opinions expressed just as they are here.

I was wondering -- isn't lead dangerous, as you hear about lead in paint?


Lead is extremely toxic

....I have put the lead Salt & Pepper shakers in a plastic baggie ir order to handle...
So, since lead is toxic -- and they use to make these....I guess it is a sort of weird collectible.....for looking at, not touching...

Reminds me an awful lot of some discussions of homemade bullet lube recipes. :bigsmyl2:

Greatest thing for shooting since gunpowder! I can't wait to try it!

So bad it makes bullets come out sideways, I had a buddies cousin that tried it. He is a certified redneck so there can be no doubt!


I am fairly sure (an opinion) that there is some older salt & pepper or sugar & cream pewter items out there with lead, my guess is those would be worth more as antiques than as alloy because they would be older. But so far I have seen no such items presented, or an example from an authority so have nothing to compare against as a known exemplar.

[konsole]

I skimmed this thread so I don't know whats happened to the candlestick. Melt it down and pour an ingot with it. Then weigh it in pounds, and measure its volume in cubic inches. Then divide its weight in pounds by its volume in cubic inches, and if the result is close to 0.41 then its probably lead, if close to 0.26 then its probably pewter. Let us know what number you come up with.

[paralaska]

Thanks . . . I'll do that . . . Probably be at least another month to 6 weeks or so because it's too cold to go outside and start smelting stuff. I have about 150 lbs of COWW, 30 to 40 lbs of pure lead, and this candle stick to ingotize . . . I wish we had an indoor range, then I'd be more motivated to shoot, reload, and do my new (yet to be tried) hobby of bullet casting . . .