I need another safe.

[wallenba]

My thirty year old Browning Pro-steel is full, and I'd like to make a little room inside so the rifles aren't touching each other. The newer safes I see in Dunham's and Gander Mountain don't seem to be as heavily constructed as mine. Is that the norm today? Also, do the big box stores deliver to your door? And who there (driver, sales people) have the combo and your address? Will they deliver just to the door? Or will they take it inside for you. My back can't take a lot of that. I can shuffle it into position once it is stood up.

I also have concerns about the electronic locks, eventually electronic stuff goes bad.
I found this outfit on the internet http://www.snapsafe.com/safe-features These come in kit form. The door seems tuff, but the rest is just bolted together sheet metal. Opinions?

I want a 'safe', not a security cabinet too. In Michigan, safe cracking carries up to life in prison. Savvy burglars might not want to risk it if they aren't sure what's in it.

I just need a small one to take the overflow from my main one. Should have capacity for at least fifteen long guns, a combination lock preferred, and around $500. Any recommendations?

[jcameron996]

Speaking from painful experience, stay a way from the electronic locks. I had to pay to have one drilled and a new lock installed after stupidly changing the battery with the door closed. My father had one replaced after changing the battery luckily with the door open after my experience. I have heard of an outfit locally(Kansas City area) that will pick up your safe at whatever store you buy it from and deliver it to your house and install it where you want it for a fee. Seems like it was about $300. Not cheap, but after moving several and nearly smashing my hand the last time it doesn't sound so bad.

[MaryB]

I looked at Snap Safes, some of the reviews were not so good. Then someone in town was giving away a security cabinet for free so i grabbed it. All 300 pounds of it, took 4 people to get it in the door and stood up.

[Ehaver]

Most places have the option for delivery to your home, on the main floor. (Dicks sporting, Sports Authority and bass pro had display signs stating so) IF you move it yourself, take the door off. That alone cuts down the weight significantly. Most just slide off the hinges, in an upward manner. I was looking at safes the other day, the place didn’t have batteries in them, they had long keys that can open the safe by taking off the digital panel. The sales person said that the safe came with a key... dunno if it’s true, but something to look at if you go digital.

[Dhammer]

Company called Pendelton looks to have some pretty sweet safes. Im still doing my research so won't say yes or no as to weather I want one yet or will go another route.

[NavyVet1959]

There are some safes that have both a digital and dial combination. That way, if the battery goes out, you have a manual backup. A digital safe is quicker to get into in an emergency than a dial one.

Go with a Sargent and Greenleaf lock at the very least.

If you don't have any steps, even a 1500 lb safe is not that difficult for a single person to move as long as you take it slow. Screw up though and you can have some seriously mashed fingers. Pipe for rollers or golf balls underneath the bottom of the safe and you can move a safe around fairly easily. When you get it to where you want it, bolt it to the floor though. If you can put it in a closet so that a thief won't have room to attack it, that will help also. If you are really concerned about theft, look at what the jewelry companies use and consider something made by one of those manufacturers.

In the end, the best safe is one that no one knows you have and no one can find if they are searching for it.

[Dhammer]

I always heard grade 5 bolts into concrete floor, big metal bracket behind into studs and concrete wall with about 50lbs of gun powder will be a big deterrent if they try cutting into safe after all esle fails. ;) may or may not know someone that crazy.

[shoot-n-lead]

If you don't have any steps, even a 1500 lb safe is not that difficult for a single person to move as long as you take it slow. Screw up though and you can have some seriously mashed fingers. Pipe for rollers or golf balls underneath the bottom of the safe and you can move a safe around fairly easily.

It is pretty apparent that you have never worked in a business that required you move these things around. Pipes and golf balls on carpet are a PROBLEM...negotiating doors and corners...don't even mention it. It is one thing to move heavy objects around in a business...and quite something else to move them around in a typical residence. And, it is very easy for you to say that a 1500 safe is easy for one person to move... Yeah, right.

Anything can be stolen by prepared thieves...but how many gun safes do you hear of being stolen? Before you come up with all of the times it has been done...let's just acknowledge the fact that it is RARE.

[CastingFool]

I see you live in S.E. Michigan, Wallenba, have you checked with Hoogerhyde's in Grand Rapids?

[NavyVet1959]

It is pretty apparent that you have never worked in a business that required you move these things around. Pipes and golf balls on carpet are a PROBLEM...negotiating doors and corners...don't even mention it. It is one thing to move heavy objects around in a business...and quite something else to move them around in a typical residence. And, it is very easy for you to say that a 1500 safe is easy for one person to move... Yeah, right.

Anything can be stolen by prepared thieves...but how many gun safes do you hear of being stolen? Before you come up with all of the times it has been done...let's just acknowledge the fact that it is RARE.

Well, my safe is around 1500 lbs and I can move it around with pipe and golf balls. I moved it into the house via the back door and that was the most difficult part since there were a few inches that I needed to raise it. A few concrete blocks of varying thicknesses so that the slope was gradual and various diameter pieces of PVC and steel pipe so that I could work it up the mini-steps of the blocks and eventually I got it done. Sure, it helps if you have another person to lay the pipe in front of your direction of travel and pick up the pieces that are behind you, but it's not absolutely necessary. You just take it a few inches at a time. My house is a single story and other than small tile area in the kitchen / breakfast area where the back door is located, the house is carpeted on a concrete slab foundation. The golf balls make it very easy to negotiate corners. Using pipes as rollers, it takes a bit more effort to do it, but it's not something that you need a tremendous amount of strength to do. It's all about technique.

Now, the commercial safe movers have motorized stair climbing hand trucks that allow them to do it with even less effort.

If you have the safe in the back of your pickup, it would be quite a bit more difficult to get it down to ground level with just a single person. I moved mine the last time on a utility trailer and with the height of my truck, it caused the rear of the trailer to be fairly low to the ground, which I combined with backing the rear wheels of my truck onto some concrete pavers to make the rear of the trailer even lower. This combined with some blocks on the concrete allowed me to have a gradual slope to get the safe off the trailer and not have to be that concerned with the safe falling over on me.

[texaswoodworker]

about 50lbs of gun powder will be a big deterrent if they try cutting into safe after all esle fails. ;) may or may not know someone that crazy.

The only problem with that I see is that should your home ever catch fire, you now have a very large, very powerful bomb that threatens not only your family's life, but also the lives of all the first responders and people in the immediate area.

[freebullet]

Last I checked Browning still sold very nice heavy safes. Find a dealer and get one to match your current safe.

I would stay away from the s&g keypad lock. I've been disappointed with mine from day one. If I did it again I'd go combo. It's a time tested & proven reliable system that don't need a battery.

[Plate plinker]

I see you live in S.E. Michigan, Wallenba, have you checked with Hoogerhyde's in Grand Rapids?
Also On Target in Kalamazoo they have a yearly scratch and dent safe sale or at least used to have one.

I'm due for another safe too and will be checking out their stash.

[NavyVet1959]

Also On Target in Kalamazoo they have a yearly scratch and dent safe sale or at least used to have one.


In my opinion, if a safe can get dented from just being moved around a store, then the metal is probably too thin to be a safe.

Scratches, on the other hand, well, that just means that you made the mistake of hiring a commercial moving company who thought that they could manhandle the safe instead of moving it properly. I've got scratched on the side of my safe because the idiots at the moving company refused to believe me when I told them that they would need a lift gate on the back of the truck to move it from the ground to the back of the truck. They chose to get a bunch of guys and lift it into the truck and slide it on its side instead. My experience with those idiots convinced me that it is better to move things yourself instead of paying someone else to damage your stuff.

[Plate plinker]

Liberty safes and I think national and maybe browning. Not really dented just advertising slang they use here for not perfect.
They used to stock 2-3dozen large safes if I recall correctly years ago so they are bound to get some damaged units. It's a very busy gun shop. Probably stocks +500 firearms.

[crazy mark]

Most of the electronic locks have flash memory so if the batteries go dead you can change them and the combo doesn't change. The good ones do.

[Johnch]

Look up Smith Security Safes
I have one

He is located just outside Boweling Green Ohio

He makes them to what YOU want

I know he will bring them into your house for you

Not a real cheap safe ....But I went with one of his bigest safes and added hard plate to the door
My door weighs almost 500 lb alone

So far I only have good things to say about that safe

John

[Dhammer]

Not me so not my concern in explaining to the authorities if someone had done that to their safe.

I also forgot places like Home Depot, Lowes and a few other carry American made gun safes or used to at least. Usally tucked away somewhere in the store out of sight. When the safe models change the old model can be had at pretty steep discount. The trick is finding out which safe is discontinued and what store has them. Once you can find a model number there is a way to search HD and Lowes actual stores in ones area for that model. If they only have the display and there are scratches anywhere even if they will buff out, not visible or whateber the manager will usally knock some more of the price. That's how I got my first big safe. I knew someone who literally cleaned out the northwest suburbs they got such a great deal. All except one. That's the one I got after they told me about it.

Two buddies moved mine into basement at old house since I was injured.

Also a lot of the bigger safes the door comes off. That makes a big diffence at times for moving it.

[therealhitman]

The coolest safes I've seen lately, maybe ever, have been from a company called Rhino Ironworks. They had some displayed by retailers at several gun shows in the NW in recent months. Styled like an old west bank safe, pre-distressed and worn (no dent/scratch discount though) with unground welds and saddle leather interiors. I almost bought one just on principle. Probably would have if SWMBO wasn't with me.

[Ickisrulz]

http://www.zanottiarmor.com/safes.htm

More than $500, but easy to move.

[dragon813gt]

http://www.zanottiarmor.com/safes.htm

More than $500, but easy to move.

Call them and ask how long to get one. When I talked to them last February the wait was ten months.

Ask yourself what you want out of the safe what you're willing to spend. First of all, they aren't real safes. Unless you're wiling to spend the money for a TL rated safe you're getting a security container of varying thickness metal. I have a large Sturdy Safe that has almost every upgrade. It's a behemoth but I filled it up.

I was on a strict budget both monetarily and dimensionally. It has to have a dial lock. Fire resistance is meaningless to me so that didn't play into the decision. I ended up buying a Cabela's Woodsman series. They are made by Liberty. Cost me less than buying direct. And I was able to pick it up and bring it home.

There is no comparison between the Woodsman and the Sturdy. I'm fairly certain I could pierce the sides of the Woodsman w/ a pickaxe. But it came w/ a dial lock, a decent capacity and a no frills finish. It's for the ones I use the most. Nothing of value, that I'm not willing to lose, goes into it.

[retread]

Company called Pendelton looks to have some pretty sweet safes. Im still doing my research so won't say yes or no as to weather I want one yet or will go another route.

Looked at these. Really nice safes!! But he price tag was too high for me, $6,000 and up.

[crawfobj]

Liberty makes nice stuff for the $. I like the amsec BF line for a little more security/fire protection. My reloading goodies are in the garage, which mk sure would slow down any fire department response.

[CLAYPOOL]

Heritage, in Idaho , I think. 1550 empty. Mine is sitting in a corner out over the basement. I point out to the locals that if its moved off of the beam thats under the floor its on, look out BELOWWWWW>>>>>>>

[NavyVet1959]

http://www.zanottiarmor.com/safes.htm

More than $500, but easy to move.

Quite a bit more than $500 and not so easy to move, but it definitely has extra points in the "oh so cool" department.

http://houston.craigslist.org/atd/4831908591.html

http://i60.tinypic.com/33nhgzq.jpg

Obviously, *someone* needs to set the correct date on their camera... :)

[Iowa Fox]

http://www.zanottiarmor.com/safes.htm

More than $500, but easy to move.


The big ZA-3 is about 3K and last I knew about a year delivery from order date. Mark is busy building safes for sure.

[wallenba]

I see you live in S.E. Michigan, Wallenba, have you checked with Hoogerhyde's in Grand Rapids?

That's quite a ways from me, a nice drive and a nice place, but I'll try closer to home.

[Iowa Fox]

Quite a bit more than $500 and not so easy to move, but it definitely has extra points in the "oh so cool" department.

http://houston.craigslist.org/atd/4831908591.html


http://i60.tinypic.com/33nhgzq.jpg

My brother has a vault door and frame like that except his door has steel on the back. He paid $60.00 for it with the frame, and we have the combination. The building was being demo'd and the door and frame were intact on the walk in vault. He plans to install it in the basement if he and his wife build a new house when they move off the farm. Unless your building a new house or building with concrete walls the door and frame are about worth so much scrap steel.

[wallenba]

Weather has kept me from going out to look at them. Gonna go to Dick's sporting goods tomorrow. I guess the newer electronic locks have a memory, so pulling the battery with the door closed should not be a problem. Also, some have a key as back-up. (where to hide THAT so the burglar doesn't find it?) I'm still afraid some computer whiz can attach a gizmo to it and open it. Boils down to price, thickness of metal, and whether or not they will they will deliver it and put it in my living room. I can take it from there.

[dragon813gt]

Dick's sells StackOn and Field & Stream safes. Both are garbage. They are pretty much the lowest quality safes you can buy. You will have a hard time getting them to help you load it in your truck. They don't deliver to your home. At least that's how the one here is.

For $500 you aren't getting anything close to a safe. You need to increase your budget if you want something halfway decent.

[dakotashooter2]

I always heard grade 5 bolts into concrete floor, big metal bracket behind into studs and concrete wall with about 50lbs of gun powder will be a big deterrent if they try cutting into safe after all esle fails. ;) may or may not know someone that crazy.

Another option is to keep your lead stash in the bottom. A ton or two of lead in the bottom of a safe plus the weight of the safe will probably do a pretty good job of keeping someone from hauling it off.

[crawfobj]

I thought that too, until I watched 2 guys move an 1800lb safe with just a piano dolly. Now I think that unless it's physically anchored to the foundation, anything can be moved. The lead can't hurt, but a determined thief/thieves can do some pretty amazing things if given the opportunity and motivation.

[dragon813gt]

All you need is a large breaker bar and some PVC to move a safe that isn't bolted down. Leverage is the key and you don't have to work very hard to lift a heavy safe up w/ a large breaker bar. I set both of mine in place w/ only those two things. One safe is shy of half a ton. One is well over a ton.

[Plate plinker]

I thought that too, until I watched 2 guys move an 1800lb safe with just a piano dolly. Now I think that unless it's physically anchored to the foundation, anything can be moved. The lead can't hurt, but a determined thief/thieves can do some pretty amazing things if given the opportunity and motivation.
Sorry to hijack, but that's almost r like work. What a thought WoRK.

[Rick Hodges]

We used to move 30,000 lb. machinery with a couple of pinch bars. We would walk stuff all over the shop. Not fast, but we moved it just the same.

[doc1876]

Fat boy Jr. 875 lbs empty. The two BIG boys that brought it almost could not get it in the house. 5 steps was all. I ain't moving it!

[NavyVet1959]

Fat boy Jr. 875 lbs empty. The two BIG boys that brought it almost could not get it in the house. 5 steps was all. I ain't moving it!

The company that delivered my safe originally used an electric stair climber and it was very easy for a single person to do it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8DKjCpe5P3k

You can "work smart" or "work hard". Take your pick.

When I moved mine myself, I was moving it from a first floor to another first floor and the steps that I had to go up were single steps with a large landing area between each step, so it was a simple matter to put some concrete paver style blocks down plus some wood pieces to make it a series of more easily navigated really small steps instead of one large step. That, plus a utility trailer with a low back end made it pretty easy. You just need to take your time go an inch or so at a time. You get in a hurry, you'll probably get hurt.

[MaryB]

At the casino we would move entire banks of machines as a unit of it was going to be in the same room. Bases were all bolted together, we wrapped 4 heavy duty ratchet straps around the bases to further lock them together. Disconnect all floor wiring, jack it up and put it on dollies and roll it across the carpet. 2-3 tons of machines and bases at a time. took a couple hours prep work is all.

[NavyVet1959]

At the casino we would move entire banks of machines as a unit of it was going to be in the same room. Bases were all bolted together, we wrapped 4 heavy duty ratchet straps around the bases to further lock them together. Disconnect all floor wiring, jack it up and put it on dollies and roll it across the carpet. 2-3 tons of machines and bases at a time. took a couple hours prep work is all.

That's even easier with commercial carpeting since it normally does not have padding under it.

For a given weight, the larger the wheel, the easier it is roll. Remember the old steel wheel roller skates that we used to use in the streets? Quite a bit of rolling resistance with those old rough concrete streets, but you didn't really notice it on a bicycle. Many of us have pushed a car with a dead battery to get it to start also -- that's a few thousand pounds. My plane weighs about 1600 lbs with full fuel and no one in it. I have no problem pushing it on a flat surface even though the tires are not really all that large in diameter. The 1.5-2" lip to my hangar door though requires me to get a bit of a running start or it won't have the energy to climb the lip. If I put a couple of boards there to make it not such an abrupt change in height, then it's not as difficult to get it back in the hangar.

Now, back to the topic at hand... The larger the diameter of your rollers, the easier it is move a safe across residential carpeting. Schedule 40 PVC pipe is strong enough to hold a heavy safe when you distribute the load across multiple pieces of it. It's also nice to have another person who moves the rollers from the back of the safe to in front of the safe as you roll it, but it's not absolutely necessary -- it just makes it a bit quicker. Anyone who says that this will not work has either never tried it or was just doing it wrong.

[dakotashooter2]

I'm not arguing that it can't be done.Pros can do anything, but If it gets to be too much work or will take to long your average smash and dash thieves will give up on it unless they know for sure that the contents will make it worth their while. A safe is going to come out of a house faster than it went in because thieves won't care about causing damage. Mine took me about an hour to get in because of narrow doors and hallways. I suspect it could come out in about 1/2 that time. I'm as much interested in slowing them down as anything. My 2 dogs will make enough ruckus that they probably won't want to hang around very long anyway. In my case it doesn't make sense to spend 3-4$ K on a safe to 5K worth of guns......

[dragon813gt]

You usually end up putting more than firearms in them. I have separate document safes since firearm safes won't keep papers from burning. Most people end up putting jewelry and other valuables in it.

[Iowa Fox]

Here's a good vid on safes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltK-bDbADa8

[NavyVet1959]

I'm not arguing that it can't be done.Pros can do anything, but If it gets to be too much work or will take to long your average smash and dash thieves will give up on it unless they know for sure that the contents will make it worth their while. A safe is going to come out of a house faster than it went in because thieves won't care about causing damage. Mine took me about an hour to get in because of narrow doors and hallways. I suspect it could come out in about 1/2 that time. I'm as much interested in slowing them down as anything. My 2 dogs will make enough ruckus that they probably won't want to hang around very long anyway. In my case it doesn't make sense to spend 3-4$ K on a safe to 5K worth of guns......

Sometimes, the firearms that you have might not be worth that much to anyone else, but they are worth something to you just for the memories that they bring back. Firearms owned by your father and grandfather that you inherited for example. I suspect that I have around 7 firearms in my safe that I inherited from my father and grandfather and they are worth a whole lot more to me than I could ever think to get by selling them. They are not highly collectable, but they bring back memories. Another thing to consider is that if you have a good secure safe, you will find that you will use it for other things -- important papers (house deed, car titles, passports, birth certificates, marriage license, etc), spare cash, jewelry, expensive watches, etc.

If a criminal doesn't care about the amount of damage or noise that he generates, then it is a lot quicker to remove a safe from a home. Just look at how they steal the ATM machines.

http://crimeblog.dallasnews.com/2015/01/atm-thieves-crash-stolen-pickup-into-7-eleven-in-northeast-dallas.html

Anything you can do to slow them down or make it more difficult for them helps.



Bolt it to the floor and wall.
Hide it -- hidden room, panel in closet, etc.
Put it in closet so that they don't have room to work.
Put it in the room before the door frames have been put in and use a large enough safe so that it can't easily be removed after the door frames have been installed.
Alarm system -- monitored and noisy.
Dogs.
Active security system (i.e. trip wires, photo sensors tied to active defense mechanism). This might be frowned upon in certain locales.
Decoy safe in plain view and real safe hidden.
Weight added to safe to make it more difficult to move.
Layers of stone and then steel added to exterior of safe to make it more difficult to cut through.


I have to think that if you really wanted to get fancy, then when you are building your house, you build a rectangular hole in the ground that is large enough to completely hold the safe and then have the safe put on a steel plate that is suspended over this hole. You could then have a security system that would set off some explosive bolts or servo mechanism that would drop the safe into the hole if a certain amount of force was exerted on the safe in an attack. That would limit any further attack on the safe to just the top and that could be further slowed with the addition of a steel plate a couple of inches thick. Maybe some coil springs on the bottom of the hole so that when the safe hit the bottom of the hole, it was cushioned somewhat so as not to damage the contents? Something like an elevator buffer spring?

http://marutielevator.net/images/buffer-spring/buffer-spring.png

If they come in with a backhoe, welder, and plasma cutter, you're probably out of luck though. :)


Nothing is perfect and given enough time and effort, anything can be breached.

[Wis. Tom]

My safe is from a little town's bank, that was broken into about 12 yrs. ago. Two guys worked on it for about 4 hours before giving up. They jimmied up everything pretty good, so the bank didn't want it, so after a locksmith got the contents out of it(after two days of working on it), my dad asked them what they were going to do with it. Long story short, we got it loaded on a trailer by the crane that was used to get it out, and free just for taking it. The locksmith charged us $80 to rebuild and install new lock system, as he did half the work of drilling just to get it open in the first place. It weighs 2200 lbs. and is sitting on concrete floor with the workshop built around it, which was made with ICF concrete filled walls.