What drill sizes?

[Jim]

I want to drill out some cases to use 209 shotshell primers. What drill size do I use for the body of the primer? Or, if I mike the primers, how many K less should I drill to get a nice interference fit?

[runfiverun]

i would think 2-3 thou do you have a shot gun shell to measure?

[Morgan Astorbilt]

Jim, #209 primers are tapered from about .2410"-.2390". This would require a 6.10mm (.2402") drill. You would also have to counter bore the recess for the rim, a 5/16" drill would be about right. These sizes should be tested in a block of scrap.

Why would you want to use these primers? In high pressure loads, the battery cup will have a lot of surface area under pressure, and the difference in primer strength and large flash hole will make any reloading data useless.

BE VERY CAREFULL!!

Morgan

[JIMinPHX]

Primer pockets are held to very tight tolerances, like .0001”. You’re not going to get that kind of precision from a drill bit. You would be having a good day if you did that well with a chucking reamer in a proper fixture.

[Morgan Astorbilt]

Primer pockets are held to very tight tolerances, like .0001”. You’re not going to get that kind of precision from a drill bit. You would be having a good day if you did that well with a chucking reamer in a proper fixture.
Yes, primer pockets for Berdan and Boxer primers are pretty accurate, but I doubt they are held to a tenth. Shotshell primers are another story. The pockets were originally punched in a brass covered cardboard base, and are now punched through a brass plated steel casing, into a molded plastic or rolled cardboard pocket. Both of these materials are quite resilient, which is why the battery cup is tapered. Don't know what Jim plans to do with them, and gave him an average dia. of the primer. He'd have to experiment not to crush the primer cake.

Morgan

[hornsurgeon]

i assume that you plan to use these for propelling a pellet or roundball for a plinking load. i have done this with mixed results. it worked ok, but i got leading without any lube on the pellet or roundball. also, the primer left a hard coating of crud on the bore that was hard to remove. i used a drill bit, a straight chucking reamer, and a end mill, all in a lathe. i have the tools at work that i used to make mine and will check on sizes tomorrow.

[Buckshot]

..............Hey Jim! Use a #4 centerdrill to drill through the anvil and pocket. The body of this size centerdrill will also form the ledge for the flange of the 209 primer. After they're all done with the centerdrill, go back and drill through with a letter 'B' drill bit. Preferably a good new sharp one that hasn't seen any steel. But if it has, go ahead as it'll work so long as it's sharp.

http://www.fototime.com/FB833F810B2C0FE/standard.jpg32 ga conversion for the Comblain using 209 primers

http://www.fototime.com/97D8CFD115331D0/standard.jpg209 Shotshell primer conversion on the 8x56R Steyr, back when they were all Berdan. Never had any leakage around the battery cup, but as the loads got kind of intense the primer itself did begin to pierce. Pressures well above normal scattergun levels.

http://www.fototime.com/AD10AA21E7DA774/standard.jpgAll these Mag-Tech 24 ga brass shotshells were similarly converted from Berdan to 209's.

...................Buckshot

[Morgan Astorbilt]

Buckshot, I agree with the #4 center drill (5/16") for the flange recess, and to center the hole, but won't the letter "B" drill (.2380") be too small? Can the battery cups be compressed this much when being seated? Just curious.
Morgan

[alleyyooper]

A old Lyman reloading manual I have has a set up for 38 specials for indoor target pratiac. Drill out the primer pocket for the 209 primer then take a 1/4 inch sheet of bees wax to press into the mouth of the case. The primer provied enough UMP to drive the bees wax 50 feet.
No I never tried it, never had a 38 special.

:mrgreen: Al

[Leftoverdj]

I've done it to shoot .25 pellets out of a .25-20 and a .25-35. Did not need precision for that use and just drilled the pockets through with a 1/4" bit and countersunk with a 3/8" bit.

[Buckshot]

Buckshot, I agree with the #4 center drill (5/16") for the flange recess, and to center the hole, but won't the letter "B" drill (.2380") be too small? Can the battery cups be compressed this much when being seated? Just curious.
Morgan

.............Works like a champ.

..............Buckshot

[jklein_1968]

I would like to try 209 conversion for 38 special to shoot glue/wax projectiles. Can the conversion be done in a drill press or is a lathe required? Also what tool can be used to seat the 209 primers after conversion? I have a lee hand primer and lee primer press.



..............Hey Jim! Use a #4 centerdrill to drill through the anvil and pocket. The body of this size centerdrill will also form the ledge for the flange of the 209 primer. After they're all done with the centerdrill, go back and drill through with a letter 'B' drill bit. Preferably a good new sharp one that hasn't seen any steel. But if it has, go ahead as it'll work so long as it's sharp.

http://www.fototime.com/FB833F810B2C0FE/standard.jpg32 ga conversion for the Comblain using 209 primers

http://www.fototime.com/97D8CFD115331D0/standard.jpg209 Shotshell primer conversion on the 8x56R Steyr, back when they were all Berdan. Never had any leakage around the battery cup, but as the loads got kind of intense the primer itself did begin to pierce. Pressures well above normal scattergun levels.

http://www.fototime.com/AD10AA21E7DA774/standard.jpgAll these Mag-Tech 24 ga brass shotshells were similarly converted from Berdan to 209's.

...................Buckshot

[hugh]

now this is some new stuff to me .it is very interesting.tanks gents.

[deltaenterprizes]

I have seen some 223 Rem cases converted to use shot shell primers to propel 22 cal pellets for target shooting.

[dragonrider]

I did it to a 223 case to use with pellets in my Contender 10" barrel. Works great. I only did one so shooting pellets is time consuming but fun.

[lathesmith]

Buckshot, I agree with the #4 center drill (5/16") for the flange recess, and to center the hole, but won't the letter "B" drill (.2380") be too small? Can the battery cups be compressed this much when being seated? Just curious.
Morgan

If you can get a 5/16" drill to drill a precise.3125" hole, you are one skilled workman and also have some mighty precision equipment! In the case above, you need a hole that is .240", and the recommended drill is .238. This should work out about right, a little "waller" of a few thousanths and a *slightly*lobed hole is what I have come to expect from good quality drill bits, used with good lube and proper technique. Cheaper bits, those sharpened off-center(think "hand resharpened"), and such tend to "waller" somewhat more, but for some things this isn't a problem, really. If you need a precise hole, have closer tolerances(under .001, for example), a reamer or preferably a boring bar are the only way to go. But, for some projects and some materials, a drilled hole is "good enough".
lathesmith

[Flinchrock]

Primer pockets are held to very tight tolerances, like .0001”. You’re not going to get that kind of precision from a drill bit. You would be having a good day if you did that well with a chucking reamer in a proper fixture.

That is a durn sure fact!!!! Your "drill bit" is gonna go oversize! and the finish is gonna suk! 2-3 thou is way too much press for brass and primers more like around 1 thou.

[Bob Krack]

Bill Jordan, the famed US Border Patrol Agent, describes how to load indoor practice loads for .38 caliber. Should work for most any caliber center-fire, pistol, revolver, or single-shot.

If memory serves me -
Enlarge the primer hole somewhat.
Mark the casing so you will never ever mistakenly load it with powder!
Melt canning wax, pour about 1/4" deep into a shallow pan and allow it to cool (harden).
Press the cartridges into the wax, loading a waxlit.
Prime the case, load into your revolver, and fire away!

Over the years I have lost, misplaced, or given the book away. Titled "No second place winner". Terrific read. He used aspirin tablets as targets, if I remember correctly.

Bob

[Buckshot]

If you can get a 5/16" drill to drill a precise.3125" hole, you are one skilled workman and also have some mighty precision equipment!
lathesmith

..............Ah, it's a '#4 centerdrill'. Short, fat thing for starting holes and making 60* centers? Not a regular ole 5/16" drill bit :-)

jklein_1968, PM answered, didja get it?

................Buckshot

[superc]

See my video of me doing this for a Berdan primed .577-450 case. Yes, a B drill works well. Do not forget to chamfer the case head so the primer lip is slightly recessed. I seat them with a wood ram I made.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CcefFu04V8

[country gent]

From the above dimensions were talking .120 taper per foot which may be close to the appropriate taper pin reamer. Driling the case out .005-.010 undersized and then the reamer with a stop on it would give the tapered hole. But it would still need to have the top counter bored for the rim.


If you know someone who works as a machinist tool maker or best a cutter grinder, a 5/16 drill can be modified with a smaller drill/ pilot 1/2"-3/4" long ground on the end then the step sharpened and the pilot sharpened. also shorten the drill as much as possible. this will do both in one set up and stop setting. the webless pilot holds sie fairly well as it tends to burnish the last little bit. I have some counter bores and other tooling made up like this. Saved set ups tool changes. If this route is taken make sure the angles and reliefs are for brass to avoid grabbing.

[M-Tecs]

https://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/cpg1410/albums/userpics/33132/prmrtble.jpg

[Stan_TN]

This really is some unique stuff. Glad I found this thread

[toysareforboys]

Wow guys, thanks so much for the information!!

http://ecuflashking.com/newguns/40mm/65_eXact_iMpact_40mm_aluminum_hulls_with_sponge_pr ojectiles_all_sm.jpg

http://ecuflashking.com/newguns/40mm/eXact_iMpact_40mm_aluminum%20hulls/eXact_iMpact_40mm_aluminum%20hulls_sm.jpg

I bought those above, they use .38 short blanks, not very easy to find in Canada :( So using your info I machined the already shot .38 blanks to take .209 primers, and they work FLAWLESS! I trim the case shorter and press in the case and primer into the hull:

http://ecuflashking.com/newguns/40mm/38_blank_to_209_primer_finished_top_sm.jpg

http://ecuflashking.com/newguns/40mm/smokeless_38_blank_to_209_primer_finished_3_grains _traill_boss_with_burst_disc_sm.jpg

Then through the high pressure to low pressure vent hole I fill up the entire high pressure chamber with 12.5 grains (by weight) of Triple Seven FFg left loose/not packed (for detonation). Amazing performance :)

http://ecuflashking.com/newguns/40mm/38_blank_to_209_primer_finished_filled_up_with_twe lve_point_five_grains_by_weight_of_triple_seven_FF g_sm.jpg

http://ecuflashking.com/newguns/40mm/five_done_in_a_row_sm.jpg


https://youtu.be/dSB6UBG7PXc

I bought super nice very short "Carbide Drill Bits for Stainless Steel and Nickel, Titanium-Nitride (TiN) Coated" from McMaster-Carr (because I'll eventually be making stainless steel .38 to 209 adapters) and I don't own any "real" cobalt drills so I figured I'd get real nice ones. Should drill nice exact size holes.

Thanks again guys!

-Jamie M.

[nicholst55]

I remember reading an article about modifying .45-70 brass to accept 209 shotshell primers many, many years ago in HANDLOADER magazine - back before it became just more grocery store pap. The intent was to get a better propellant burn, IIRC. The author went to a lot of trouble to modify a handful of brass for experimentation, and ultimately abandoned the project. Too much work for too little useful results.

[kootne]

There is a short piece in an old American Rifleman from about 1950 or so by Elmer Keith about a couple ways to convert Berdan primed cases for old English double rifles. He attributes the 209 conversion concept to Bob Ward of Missoula Mt, as using a 5/16 drill (.3125) and 15/64 drill (.2343). A .450 (3.25 case) load is listed as (max) 50gr. of 4198, 405gr. bullet to replace the original load of 55gr. Cordite and 365 gascheck bullet.
I have a Lyman #46 showing max. load in a .45-120-3.25 as 54 gr. of 4198 with a 300 grain jacketed (34,600 c.u.p.).
I'm thinking old Bob didn't have any lace on his undies shooting that 50gr. load with a 405gr bullet in a double rifle and lighting it with a shotgun primer.