Micrometer Questions?

[mjwcaster]

So I am searching for a micrometer to buy.
I have read all the posts I can find here on it.

I plan on sticking to older US made mics.
Searching ebay and trying to research is making my head hurt, but what is the point of upgrading from calipers unless I get something better and then learn how to use it.

Can I use pin gauges as makeshift standards?
I plan on buying some any way, and figure something to check the middle of the range where I will be working on is a decent idea.

What should I look for besides brand?

What is the difference between a Starrett 230 and 436?

I see the 236 comes in .001 and .0001 models, no way to tell besides seeing the markings on the mics itself?
Or are there differences and the starrett site just uses some of the same pictures?

And does it make a difference for a beginner- friction or ratchet type?

And does any of this matter in regards to older 230's, is it just the new ones that have a dizzying array of choices?
What I don't get is on the new ones there is virtually no difference in price for the greater accuracy?
Why wouldn't you just but the better one for $10 more?

I know I am making this more complicated than it needs to be, but in a sick way I enjoy learning all about these things.


The more I research the more questions I get, and I haven't even started researching the other brands yet.

[bbqncigars]

All you need is a resolution of .001" for reloading. Starrett and Mitutoyo are good, but know used mikes can have a history of abuse. My chinese Lyman mike is decent enough for the job. YMMV

[mjwcaster]

I should also mention that one of my dreams is to take some shop classes, learn how to measure stuff, sharpen things and run a lathe and mill.

I can see collecting mics and others measuring tools, use the best ones for machining and the lesser ones stay on the reloading bench.

[jmorris]

Friction or ratchet type keep the operator from turning them into a C clamp.

If you have standards for them you can learn to use both properly.

Once you get over 6" accuracy is questionable to the ten thousandth of an inch, with either type but again standards help you get a "feel" for the instrument.

http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv5/qvideo/IMG_20150105_141304_010_zps3b8e6ae7.jpg

[Ballistics in Scotland]

One of the annoying things about eBay is that some micrometers are sold by people who don't know that they come in .001in. and .0001in. persuasions, and can't tell the difference. You have to rely on the pictures, if they are clear enough, or find the information on the manufacturer's website.

Yes, you can use a pin gauge like a micrometer standard - diameter, of course, since they aren't held to a precise length. Bear in mind, though, that pin gauges are made to different tolerances, which you should be told on the box. The commonest is the type in which the manufacturing tolerance is all under the nominal diameter, so that a nominal .30 gauge is sure to enter a true .30 hole or gap.

People frequently assume that a micrometer must be accurate when the anvil makes light contact and the graduations read zero. But this isn't necessarily the case. There is a little hole in the sleeve to let you adjust the reading by rotating the sleeve it with the wrench provided. The usual standard is large, e.g. 1in. for a 1in. micrometer, and therefore checks it at an end of the scale you rarely use. For the reloader, a pin gauge of .30in. or so may give a more useful assessment for the tasks you will actually use it for.

The .001 micrometer is adequate for virtually all gunsmith and reloading tasks. If you were making bullet swaging dies, .0001 would be worth having. But anyway, what is .0001in. accuracy? If a micrometer is only capable of an accuracy of .0002in. across its range, due either to manufacturing quality or wear, that is what you get, regardless of the graduations and lines engraved on it. $10 seems plenty for engraving.

[oldred]

Also the are the digital mics, personally I just don't care for digital, even for calipers, but others may see things differently. I suppose the digital mics are accurate enough (at least the "name brands") but I was constantly finding myself chasing that last number when it wasn't even necessary but all-in-all they must have something going for them because a lot of people surely do like them!

[Beagle333]

Just pick you up one of these, a 1" Starrett 436 with the little knob on the end, that looks similar to this one, for around $25-30± shipped and you'll be good.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Starrett-No-436-1-inch-Micrometer-and-Instructions-in-box-USA-tool-/161573372410?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item259e8601fa

[EDG]

The #1 Brown and Sharpe chrome framed mikes can often be bought for $12 to $15.
I am talking about a mike with chromed frame, .0001 verneir, a friction thimble and carbide faces. Older B&S mikes that have been rode hard are usually no bargain.

I can show you what to look for on Ebay.
There are plenty of good mikes there.
You are normally looking for a like new 20 to 40 year old mike.

The more expensive Starretts are ok. Starrett made a heavy duty mike that was really good but they are usually very expensive. I don't much like the painted frame mikes. Many of the older cheaper Starretts and Brown and Sharpes do not have .0001 or carbide faces. I loathe steel faces on a mike.
Starretts have a lot of brand loyal types out there and they are often bid up higher than their level of quality is worth.
For the most part Starrett is just an ordinary mike.

The Japanese Mitutoyo mikes are excellent too and they all have carbide.
Lufkins with carbide are very, very good.
Other good brands are Scherr-Tumico (also sold by Sears as Craftsman)

On the super duper end are the fat barrel Swiss made Etalons that you can read the tenths more easily.
The German made Mahr is sort of the Rolex of mikes.


There are dozens of good mikes on Ebay each month. It is easy to find a real bargain.
There are so many in fact that all you have to do is pick a model you prefer. Set a auto notification to email you and wait until a good one shows up. If you do not win the bid - no big deal. Another mike will soon come along.

Bear in mind many people have open selling accounts on ebay and they are happy to over price anything they have whether it is good or bad. What you are looking for is an excellent mike for $20 or less plus shipping. I get bored and rescue a nice mike from time to time. My last one cost me $12 plus $5 shipping

I would be glad to show you what to look for.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I have a couple of the cheap Chinese digital calipers, and they seem accurate, though I wouldn't be surprised if they don't last. I would call them well worth having at the price, for they will do a lot that a small mechanical micrometer can't. Yes, you can buy micrometers of 4 or 6 inch capacity, and internal micrometers, depth micrometers, blade micrometers etc. But the average amateur gunsmith simply won't.

A ball micrometer is useful sometimes for measuring the minimum distance between concave surfaces, but is rarely worth buying. There is an accessory, though, which holds a hard steel ball against one or both surfaces of the micrometer, and this is usually cheap. Usually the ball is 0.1in. in diameter, so you just deduct that from the reading on a general-purpose micrometer.

[fast ronnie]

What size mic are you looking for? I have a couple in the shop that I don't use. They are Starretts but don't know whether 1/10's without going out to look at them. I have two sets of B&S 1-3's I have been using for nearly 50 years. Periodically, I check them for zero. but have not had to adjust them for years, and I use them nearly every single day in the shop. Over the years, I have used many different precision tools, and like others, I have my favorites. #1 in my book are B&S, although my 3" to 12" set is a mixed bag of Starrett 436's, and yes, they come in different styles in the same model. The last time I bought new Starrett, I was disappointed in their quality and a couple pieces were so bad they were returned for replacement. (they did replace without questions other than what the problem was.) On the other hand, I have a set of Starrett dial calipers bought new in 1970. They are the most accurate of any of the five sets of calipers I have except the B&S which are equally accurate, (no better or worse but do feel different.) Mitutoyo's are iffy. I have two sets of which one is probably 25 years old, and are very accurate. The other set is 5 or 6 years old and were bought when I dropped my Starrett's and broke them, and had to wait for the Starrett's to be repaired. Those are a whole 'nother story. I don't trust those things to any closer than .005 thousandths. (not .0005, I mean literally 5 thou.) I can check tomorrow and see what those two starrett's are as I don't use them. I believe there is a 0-1 and a 1-2, but as i recall, they are not in tenth's. If interested, PM me, and I will check the condition and let you know. You can also buy new pretty reasonably at Discount Machine sales, or MSCDIRECT, both of which have good web sites and are great to deal with. I have had an account with MSC for years, and they have extremely good service. If it's in the cataloge, it's in stock and I have it the next day without having to pay extra charges from getting stock from one of their other warehouses. Enco may be cheaper, but they don't have the selection, and some of their stuff is?????????
Because you are in Illinois, you could also call Tri-State Instrument in Fort Wayne, Indiana. When I lived there, they had pretty good service, too. I purchased quite a few tools from them back 40 years or so. By the way, any mike over 1" comes with a standard to check them. At least that's been my experience, but I haven't bought a new set of mic's for at least 30 years, so don't know what today's practice is.

[coleman]

On starretts mics if it don't have Athol Mass USA stamped on the thimble, It is not made in the USA and are ****, The steel is soft and they are trying to maximize profit outsorcing to 3rd world country. I use to be a die hard Starrett guy, all my tools are starrett usa I don't advise starrett anymore if its not made in usa.

[Dhammer]

You can usally find better deals on Craig'st list and get to handle them first before buying. I've paid $10.00 for a set of 4 US mics.

[cuzinbruce]

I have several Brown & Sharpe mikes and like them. Look for the carbide faces. A standard is nice but I rarely use one. I set a mike at the desired case length and use it check case lengths. And overall length on loaded ammo. Calipers are very handy for longer things, vernier are good, dial are easier to read. Good combo would be a 1" mike and a 6" caliper. That would take care of most of the measurements you have to do reloading.

[zuke]

Gauge block's and drill rod make good standard's.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

On starretts mics if it don't have Athol Mass USA stamped on the thimble, It is not made in the USA and are ****, The steel is soft and they are trying to maximize profit outsorcing to 3rd world country. I use to be a die hard Starrett guy, all my tools are starrett usa I don't advise starrett anymore if its not made in usa.

Oh, these aren't at all bad. But Moore and Wright, long-term manufacturers of extremely good micrometers in the UK, have gone exactly the same way on imports. If they didn't, people would just buy them from the A.N. Other Importing Company.


129585

[lightman]

I have a stainless Craftman that I bought at a gun show for $10. I used feeler gauges to practice on, as there is a learning curve. Thanks to this thread, I now know who made it.

[257]

around here you can find good used 0-1 mics for 10.00 at flea markets 25.00 here would get you a starrett that would look like new with the box.

[bedbugbilly]

I can't add anything to what has already been said . . . other than I applaud the OP for his "thirst" for knowledge on not only the micrometer but machining as well.

Many, MANY years ago my major was metal working and I graduated from one of the leading colleges in training Industrial Art instructors. I taught shop and before any student even learned how to turn a lathe or mill on, they knew how to measure, use a micrometer and more importantly, if they didn't know something, how to look it up in the Machinists Handbook. In my training, I had one 4 semester hour (college) class on nothing but the Machinist's Handbook - and if you wanted a passing grade, you'd better know it from the front cover to the back (and you machinists know how thick that book is)!

Unfortunately, this country has gone through the cycle again where students in junior and high school no longer have Industrial Arts classes in which to be exposed to such things. Very few IA programs are left at all - regardless of if it is metal working or wood working, etc. If they want it, they have to get it through trade schools, apprenticeships, etc. In college, I learned on lend/lease surplus equipment from WWII - LeBlondes, Bridgeports, etc. - NC was just a "futuristic concept" at the time. There was nobody I had any greater respect for than the tool and die makers and machinists that I later encountered as I worked out in industry doing design work - and from them, I learned even more.

mjwcaster . . . the best of luck to you in finding the micrometer that you want - you'll locate one. And, I encourage you to follow your desire to learn more about machining, etc. and take classes where you can get good "hands on" experiences with the various machine tools. The knowledge is something that will serve you well in a wide variety of areas. Good luck!

[big bore 99]

I am a retired tool maker and was in the trade for 49 years. I always used Starrett tools, but Brown and Sharpe, Lufkin, and most of the imports are good too.
I never used the ones with digital read outs or friction thimbles. .0001 read outs on the thimble and carbide faces are all I've used. Get one and practice with getting the feel for it. I don't believe you even need .0001 for reloading work. You can very easily read .0005 on the barrel.

[MtGun44]

In order to actually GET .001 accuracy, the mic needs to be capable of greater
accuracy. I worked for an aerospace company for decades that made weapons system
components and our manufacturing requirement was that the measuring
system MUST be able to resolve 1/4th of the desired accuracy. If you want
to control a dimension to 0.001, you need to be able to measure to .00025
or better for your measurement to be meaningful.

This is why you need a .0001 mic to measure boolits to (AT LEAST) .001, and
.0005 is better, and still meets the 1/4th requirement.

Bill

[country gent]

I perfered the brown and sharpe slant line graduation type , used them for 35 years or so working as a tool and die maker. Calipers are also good to have and for range cheaper than mics due to one set of calipers is 0-6" while that range normally takes 6 sets of michrometers. Carbide faces are nice and wear much longer but if handled rough will chip. From doing gage work and fine tools Ive learned to check zero when I pick an insterent up to use it. Standards are a plus. Another thing when purchasing a used mic measure .250, .275, .300 and .325 this checks the faces every 1/4 turn and will give an idea of anvils squareness. Also check upper and lower range. A zero -1 check at 0, .250,.275,.300,.325, and 1". Also feel the turns from start to end some mikes used in production setting have alot of wer in a certain range and tight at both ends.

[mjwcaster]

Thanks for all the input and support.
I have ordered my FIRST micrometer from evilbay, an oldder starrett, maybe a 436 (no markings other than brand on the body) for $13 delivered.
It looks like a standard mic, no ratchet or friction stop (if I have any clue at all).
I will know more in a few days when it arrives.
Note I said my first, it will probably end up being my daughters as I plan on getting a few more as time goes one.
She is just learning fractions and I think measuring items with the mic will help her to understand what she is learning.
Just had a fraction lesson today while cooking pancakes for breakfast and percentages while playing monopoly (shes home sick).
Since she likes to help me with just about everything and has helped reload a few rounds, she deserves her own tools too.

Matt

[EDG]

@mjwcaster - Ah fractions - One of the handy things about the Starrett and Brown & Sharpe (and some other brands) of chrome frame mikes is the fraction decimal equivalent chart stamped into the frame. I keep a mike on my desk next to my monitor and I use it daily for the fraction decimal equivalent chart.

I just bought another mike that I have been wanting for about 40 years.
This is a Carl Mayer from about 40 years ago. They are pretty much the Rolex of micrometers to me.
Hopefully I can find the 0-1 in less than 40 years.

130674

[EDG]

Here is a link to a very nice thread on micrometers.
The first poster gives a very good overview and rating of common micrometers.
Believe me when he down grades a mike his recommendations are very accurate.
I agree with him for the most part about the feel of a mike. What ever you do spend a few extra dollars for one of the top rated mikes even if you spend a month or 2 trolling eBay.

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/greatest-hits-links/best-micrometers-calipers-buy-110651/

[smokeywolf]

Largely agree with "country gent's" post #21. The Brown & Sharpe slant line mikes are a little easier on these old eyes to read. Don't care for or use the battery operated instruments so much, unless SPC is required.

Watch the auction sites and pay close attention to their pictures and return policies. I've bought quite a few tools off fleabay.

[mjwcaster]

Well I finally got my mic.
My second one, first one got forwarded by USPS to Florida. Spending a week at my folks house while my wife recovers from surgery an never thought that my folks forwarded all mail in the family name to their other house in florida.

I got a B&S, cute little thing. Not sure why, but I always thought it would be bigger.
$12 shipped off of evilbay.
Mic zeros when closed, measures a 9mm jacketed bullet at around .355, and a piece of paper at .004.
Best I have been able to test it at so far, at least it isn't too far off.

What have I been missing, why didn't I get one when I started reloading?
I thought I could approximate decently enough with my calipers and I may have been able to for a consistent jacketed bullet. But there was just no way I could tell how inconsistent my cast boolits were with calipers.

In less than 30 minutes I found out just how bad my bullets are, out of round, inconsistent, overly large, under size, everything.
No wonder I have leading issues with them.

The biggest shock was finding a few (only sampled about 20-30 before sizing) that had undersize rear driving bands.
And these particular bullets went through the sizing die much easier than others that were fat, so I think I measures accurately enough.

I knew I was probably swaging down the front band while taper crimping, but figured all my bullets were so oversize that the rear would make up for it.
Not if the rear was cast undersize.

I have only done a few casting sessions, the last one in 28f weather, and I know my temp swings all over the place, plus my sprue plate would come loose after 5 casts (added a set screw need to wait for better weather to try it out).

I need to learn how to use the mic better, but I have learned so much, so quickly.

Everybody needs one in their kit, especially when you can get older ones for less than $20 used.

What an idiot I have been for not getting one.
I have seen the light, now I just need to learn how to use it better.

Matt

[country gent]

Several quick tips on your "new" mikes. Keep a package of ciggrette papers handy with them. These work great to clean the anvil faces and are a pretty consistent thicknes. Bring anvils down lightly snig on paper and slide paper thru the faves this cleans any dirt crud from them. First thing when you pick them up clean faces and then check zero before using them to insure nothing has chanbged. Cigerrette papers leave very little in lint fibers behind when cleaning and checking to throw measurements off. Get a good insterment oil from a tool supply shop and use it sparingly. If possible keep the mics in original box for protection or in a safe place.

[EDG]

@mjwcaster

To test your mike technique you can mike a few different jacketed flat base rifle bullets out of the same box.

They bullets should be the same diamter except for a tiny pressure ring about the base. That area should be a few tenthousandths larger (.0001) a fraction of .001.

A micrometer can be compared to a microscope, binocular, new eye glasses or spotting scope. It is amazing when you can see everything better.

You will be able to detect high spots, low spots and taper. You can mike a slug from your bore.

The only thing you might need to remember with two opposing measuring surfaces.
If the object is lobed you may not be able to detect the out of round condition.
Imagine an object shaped like a Wankel engine rotor. It is not round but a mike cannot tell that it is out of round.

Of course one of these days you will be loading a high pressure load and think
"Hey it would be cool if I could measure the case head diameter in the bottom of the extractor groove". Then you go looking for a blade mike on Ebay and find out they are very expensive so one goes on your list to find in a pawn shop.

Then you want to check the thickness of your case necks so you start looking for a ball anvil or tubing mike. etc etc. Then you find you cannot decide between a multi-anvil and a tubing mike.

If you ever get a chance find someone that has access to one of the old bench type Pratt & Whitney super mikes and a Swiss made indicating micrometer.

Yu should be able to find many articles on micrometer care and technique on the internet.

[Mauser48]

Honestly there is no need for micrometers for reloading. The bullets themselves vary a little bit in length so it is hard to stay .001 consistent. Just buy a good pair of calipers like mitutoyos. If you do end up getting micrometers get some Japanese ones. They are quite a bit better than the American ones.

[EDG]

That may apply to your world. It does not apply to mine.
Back when dial calipers were in their infancy most of us used vernier calipers. They were called very nears for good reason.



Honestly there is no need for micrometers for reloading. The bullets themselves vary a little bit in length so it is hard to stay .001 consistent. Just buy a good pair of calipers like mitutoyos. If you do end up getting micrometers get some Japanese ones. They are quite a bit better than the American ones.

[smokeywolf]

When I went through my apprenticeship, after using a dial caliper for the first month to develop a sense of feel, we had to switch to a vernier caliper for a minimum of a month to get a good grasp of reading a vernier scale.

I still have 14 and 20 inch vernier calipers and a couple of vernier height gauges and a vernier bevel protractor. Although I can't read them anymore without my head loop, I still have more confidence in them than the electronic instruments.

smokeywolf

[big bore 99]

Agree about cleaning faces off with a piece of paper and rechecking zero. As a retired toolmaker, I carried a Starrett 1" hooked on my front pocket for 49 years.
All my jeans had the seam worn out at the top. I used a plain, no bells or whistles Starrett. Just get used to the feel for it. I tried out one of those Brown and Sharpes slant line jobs, got rid of it. Too easy to make a .025 mistake. Don't think they still do the slant line.

[mjwcaster]

Honestly there is no need for micrometers for reloading. The bullets themselves vary a little bit in length so it is hard to stay .001 consistent. Just buy a good pair of calipers like mitutoyos. If you do end up getting micrometers get some Japanese ones. They are quite a bit better than the American ones.

Huh?

I got mics for casting, and in just a few minutes I could tell more about the condition of my bullets (horrible) than i ever could with calipers.
And I thought that I was doing a decent job with calipers, which is why I put off getting a set for so long.

On jacketed bullets that are perfectly round, yes I could measure ok with calipers, but it was a approximate measurement that depended on feel.

I found that I could not tell just how out of round my boolits were.
And I was no where near as consistent with calipers as I am with just a few minutes of work with a micrometer.

If all you are measuring is overall length, then by all means use calipers, the OAL varies enough depending on cast thickness that a measurement error of a few thousands doesn't matter.

If you are trying to get a cast boolit consistent and round and sized to fit a gun without leading then please spend the few bucks on a micrometer.

I was told many times and did not listen.
I was wrong.

Matt

[mjwcaster]

So I have a basic micrometer and love it so far.

But I have more questions about more tools.

What do I need to buy to measure narrower differences, like the amount of swaging the crimp die is applying to my cast boolit?

I can see some swaging on the first drive band, but the anvils on my mic are too large to measure it, they either rest on the unswaged portion of the front band or the full sized rear band, no way to measure the narrow (top to bottom) part that has been swaged by the case mouth.

I have always loved tools, and I can see that I am already addicted to better measuring methods.

Matt

[big bore 99]

Most major manufactuers make a blade micrometer. Big bucks tho.

[Kilroy08]

I can't really add much more than what has been suggested already. Local flea markets usually have some old fellow there that has some machinist tools for sale. I picked up a nice vintage Starrett 230 1" mic with the original packaging for $15 at a farmer's market.

The main point I'd like to make is don't use WD-40 to lubricate a micrometer. It will gum up. My preferred lubricant is Starrett toll and instrument oil. A bottle will last you a long time and keep your micrometers and calipers happy.

[EDG]

Depending on what you are trying to do the relieved end of the jaws on a dial caliper can read a small edge like that.
So can a blade micrometer.

Were I to check something like that in my work setting I would use a 30" optical comparator. Such a measuring tool is way out of reach for our hobby. However it is useful to understand how good people in industry have it. If you use such a comparator you install the 20X lens. Each .001 on the screen becomes .020 wide. The shadow of a case with a .300 dimeter neck becomes 6.000 inches on the screen. It is easy to see the differences with your eyeballs.
The loaded round is set on the micrometer stage and you can move the table right or left in .0001 increments. You simply move the crosshair from one feature to the next. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TOiYk1LaSQ



What do I need to buy to measure narrower differences, like the amount of swaging the crimp die is applying to my cast boolit?
Matt

[fast ronnie]

One other thought about mic's. If they are too loose or too tight, unscrew the thimble and you will find an adjustment nut which is tapered. In moire than 40 years of use, I don't think I've readjusted my 0-1's more than twice. I have probably 20 mics of different sizes and brands of which B&S are the ones I use every day and are the first ones I purchased. I don't recall any of the others ever being adjusted other than to re-zero. That is also easy to do. there is a small hole at the base of the inner housing. There should be a small spanner wrench with your mic's. This spanner wrench fits in that hole, and the shank can be turned if they are slightly out. Anything more than .001 or .002 can be reset by taking the cap off the thimble and loosening the thimble from the spindle and rotating it. I have had to do this only once or twice after dropping mine and not being quick enough to catch them with my foot. And yes, you will eventually drop them, but it's not a real good idea!!!!!!

[EDG]

One thing I have noticed about micrometer ownership is that people are sensitive about spending a dime on something they cannot eat or shoot. When they do spend money on a mike they are inclined to cheap out or get put off by the cost of a really good mike. Having some working knowledge of mikes is a big advantage when buying them. You can understand what is a good price on a very useful tool.
In my working career and hobby it is rare that a day goes by without using a mike a little to a lot. As such the mike has become my friend over about 45 years of use. I cannot imagine how many people get by without one or several. I have OD mikes to 4", a multi-anvil mike, a 0-1 blade mike and a depth mike. Other tools that complement my mikes are a set of Starrett small hole gauges and a set of Mitutoyo telescoping gauges for checking inside diameters. I eventually got tired of the small hole gauges and bought a set of .001 increment gauge pins from .251" diam to .500. They are really useful for checking the inside diameters of dies and such.
Other measuring tools include 6" dial calipers, a 9" vernier caliper, a 1" dial travel indicator with mag base and a .0005 and .0001 dial test indicators with mag base.

[Motor]

Unless you are ready to spend hours measuring guage pins or some other type of standard to learn the "feel" of your micrometer I highly suggest you get a micrometer with either a ratchet or friction thimble.

A micrometer with a ratchet or friction thimble needs no "feel" to be accurate. This is why you will only find "calibration certificates" on mics that have them. You can line up as many people as you can find and have them measure a diameter with a ratchet or friction thimble mic and will get the same measurment every time.

Line up 5 people to measure something with a mic that does not have one and you are likely to get 5 different measurements.

Motor

[EDG]

When using an 0-1 mike one handed like you would do for measuring a bullet diameter you cannot even use a ratchet. Since many 0-1 mikes have ratchets you might as well learn to use your touch.



Unless you are ready to spend hours measuring guage pins or some other type of standard to learn the "feel" of your micrometer I highly suggest you get a micrometer with either a ratchet or friction thimble.

A micrometer with a ratchet or friction thimble needs no "feel" to be accurate. This is why you will only find "calibration certificates" on mics that have them. You can line up as many people as you can find and have them measure a diameter with a ratchet or friction thimble mic and will get the same measurment every time.

Line up 5 people to measure something with a mic that does not have one and you are likely to get 5 different measurements.

Motor

[mjwcaster]

Just took a quick look on ebay for blade mics, seem to run around $100 or so, a few name brand ones cheaper, many that cost more.

I may just keep an eye out and if I find a deal on one somewhere I will pick it up.

Matt

[EDG]

mjw
You will not use blade mikes very much. My blade mike is made by Mitutoyo. It is an excellent Japanese brand which I consider superior to Starrett and on the quality level of Brown and Sharpe or Scherr-Tumico. I think I paid $15 for it at a pawn shop about 20 years ago. The Mitutoyos sometimes are reasonable but most of the time they are not. They have been marketed in the US for more than 40 years. For a long time they were about 1/3 to 1/2 the American brands an were easily just as good. I have 4 Mitutoyos to go with a number of other brands.
I have been watching mikes pretty close since this thread started.
Some of the older Fowlers have been selling for less than $30 and some times less than $20. That is pretty good if you can get an older Fowler blade mike make by NSK. They are decent tools about on par with Starrett. The later Fowlers appear to be Chinese. Another import brand is SPI -Swiss Precision Instruments. Their older tools were pretty good. I don't know much about them. The older tools look much like NSK or VIS. NSK is another Japanese brand that is not quite up to Mits but is probably good enough for a blade mike. You might also check out the VIS blade mikes made in Poland. I think they are a good bit better than the Fowlers and have a very good reputation. They will probably sell for a little more than the Fowlers but way less than the American standards. Starrett, Brown and Sharpe blade mikes are just not worth what you pay for our limited use. Another good brand is the Scherr-Tumico but again the prices may get bid up a ways. A terrific German brand is Mahr but they are often super expensive. Etalon is another more common but superior brand. While a superior tool the prices reflect the Swiss made quality. Mahr is a rare tool. Etalon is much more common. Both are sort of Rolexs of micrometers.


Just took a quick look on ebay for blade mics, seem to run around $100 or so, a few name brand ones cheaper, many that cost more.

I may just keep an eye out and if I find a deal on one somewhere I will pick it up.

Matt

[Motor]

Just took a quick look on ebay for blade mics, seem to run around $100 or so, a few name brand ones cheaper, many that cost more.

I may just keep an eye out and if I find a deal on one somewhere I will pick it up.

Matt

I got a better Idea. Buy another $10 mic one that does not have carbide faces and "make them" blade mics. You can do the solid end and use a blade adapter for the other. I have them somewhere and have used them. Actually this is not a good idea. LOL

But really for what you want you can do accuratly with your calipers.


EDG, I know what your saying but I have no trouble using my B&S with friction thimble one handed and I have small hands.

Motor

[EDG]

Motor
I have an old stainless 8S B&S with a ratchet. I have large hands and I cannot use the ratchet one handed.
I have several B&S and a Mitutoyo with the friction thimble and like you it is easy to use one handed. I do like the ratchet for use as a speeder when turning the thimble a long ways. However after 45 years of miking parts I trust my touch more on round stuff.

I have seen the blade mike tips a few times on ebay.



I got a better Idea. Buy another $10 mic one that does not have carbide faces and "make them" blade mics. You can do the solid end and use a blade adapter for the other. I have them somewhere and have used them. Actually this is not a good idea. LOL

But really for what you want you can do accuratly with your calipers.


EDG, I know what your saying but I have no trouble using my B&S with friction thimble one handed and I have small hands.

Motor

[KAYDADOG]

Buy a set of digital Mitutoyo brand tools and you won't regret the quality. A 0"-1" micrometer and 0"-"6 calipers to start with. You will have all the accuracy and today you can't go wrong with digital readouts, no guessing with the dimension. Never would buy anything else. As always quality products cost more.
Very disappointed with Brown and Sharp brand. Had one of their top of the line micrometers. Went to use it one day and it was DOA. It was new in the box but had it just sitting for a few years. To expensive to get fixed. Use the B&S calipers I also have for woodworking projects. Mitutoyo is used for all my machining and reloading, well worth the investment. These measuring tools never sit idle very long.

[Motor]

I've been a machinist for over 30 years. I wouldn't own anything with a battery in it for home use. If it belongs to the company and they are providing the batteries, sure.

Motor

[BrianL]

I've been a machinist for over 30 years. I wouldn't own anything with a battery in it for home use. If it belongs to the company and they are providing the batteries, sure.

Motor
The original battery for my Mititoyo calipers lasted 3 years and the replacements ar 3 for $5. You do have to remember to turn them off.........:bigsmyl2:

I have been in the trades for 40 years now and still have my original Vernier calipers, as in no dial even, and they still work. I started out witha couple of Starrett mikes and ended up buying a full set of Mititoyo's up to 6". I just could not justify the price point of the Starretts. Now that I can afford either, I still buy Mititoyo in mikes and calipers, Brown and Sharpe in indicators.

[Motor]

BrianL yeah the hard part is remembering to turn them off. Lol

You'll get no argument from me on your other points.

I do prefer mechanical, either dial or digital over electronic though especially when it comes to calipers for reloading.

BTW: I know how to read very near calipers too. :)

Motor

[BrianL]

BrianL yeah the hard part is remembering to turn them off. Lol


BTW: I know how to read very near calipers too. :)

Motor

It is a dying art. All of my height gages are still Vernier though I do have to cheat and use a magnifying glass to see the lines. I only have one set of mikes that has dual readings, regular vernier and digital. It is nice to be able to verify instantly that we are correct.
I was gifted a set of carbide faced Mitutoyo calipers that are pretty handy but still gravitate back to the dials.

One very important thing with any of them is to check the zero before use.

[jcwit]

Good Grief guys. Whats the problems with batteries. Sure can't be cost, or if it is you need to do a quick 5 minute search on E-Bay for them.

The ones that fit my calibers are here

http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-LR44-AG13-357-357A-A76-303-L1154-1-5-Volt-Alkaline-Batteries-Ships-From-USA-/400683770800?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5d4a9d23b0

All of $ .19 cents each with free shipping. Plus they fit the kitty toy.

[Motor]

Good Grief guys. Whats the problems with batteries. Sure can't be cost, or if it is you need to do a quick 5 minute search on E-Bay for them.

The ones that fit my calibers are here

http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-LR44-AG13-357-357A-A76-303-L1154-1-5-Volt-Alkaline-Batteries-Ships-From-USA-/400683770800?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5d4a9d23b0

All of $ .19 cents each with free shipping. Plus they fit the kitty toy.

You kind of missed the point. The ONLY decent electronic caliper I have ever seen is the more expencive ones. The Mitutoyo are fine.

Most cheap ones I have seen EAT batteries and often simply go bad. The cheap dial calipers are far better than any cheap electronic. Its hard to get out of calibration when you got positive gear engagement between dial and slide. There is no such engagement with electronic just a cheap pick up. I simply don't trust them.

Motor

[BrianL]

Another point is technique. Someone who is versed in the proper 'feel' can use most calipers and mikes, even the plastic calipers. Novices tend to use too much pressure so the heavier and generally more expensive models may help. A good example is giving three machine operators a part and a set of calipers or a mike to measure a part. You may get three differing answers, usually on the small side. Hand the same part and calipers to three toolmakers, and the results will be closer. Then for grins, hand the same part to three engineers...............fun to watch.

Seriously though, it is very easy to flex calipers a few thousandths, dials make this easier to notice. I won't even get into the funny looking C-clamp with numbers.lol

[jcwit]

You kind of missed the point. The ONLY decent electronic caliper I have ever seen is the more expencive ones. The Mitutoyo are fine.

Most cheap ones I have seen EAT batteries and often simply go bad. The cheap dial calipers are far better than any cheap electronic. Its hard to get out of calibration when you got positive gear engagement between dial and slide. There is no such engagement with electronic just a cheap pick up. I simply don't trust them.

Motor

Your prerogative.

[EDG]

Most battery powered micrometers are clumsy to handle. Unless you buy high quality digital calipers you are wasting your time. I don't see much benefit for either.
I have a number of high quality mikes. They are all mechanical. It would be pointless to replace one of them and have an odd ball in the bunch. I am sure not going to replace ALL of them just for clumsy to handle battery powered versions that are used infrequently like blade mikes, multi-anvil mikes, tubing mikes and mikes from 2" up to 6".

132358




Good Grief guys. Whats the problems with batteries. Sure can't be cost, or if it is you need to do a quick 5 minute search on E-Bay for them.

The ones that fit my calibers are here

http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-LR44-AG13-357-357A-A76-303-L1154-1-5-Volt-Alkaline-Batteries-Ships-From-USA-/400683770800?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5d4a9d23b0

All of $ .19 cents each with free shipping. Plus they fit the kitty toy.

[max range]

I know that you said you wanted a made in USA, older mic but I just wanted to throw out what I have and am quite pleased with them: (the VME brand)
Click here: Digital Microneters from Mitutoyo and Fowler - electronic and manual models. (http://www.victornet.com/subdepartments/Outside-Micrometers-digital/125.html)
My brother-in-law visited last month and I showed them to him. He gave them a thumbs up. He is a retired tool & die man who worked for Lockheed 35 yrs.

The mic is digital but uses no batteries. Plus I can see it with old eyes. Those tiny barrel lines are out of the question nowadays.

[theperfessor]

I have been very pleased with all the SPI instruments I've purchased new in the last few years.

[alamogunr]

I'm partial to digital mikes only because everyone at work(before I retired) wanted to replace their mechanical vernier mikes with digital. I got an excellent 0-1" B&S that had just been certified to take home. Same way with the calipers only they are dial types. Got two of them. I don't have to remember to turn them off otherwise I would be replacing batteries all the time.

Just so happened that theperfessor's post is just above mine. I need to make up an order.

[jcwit]

Most battery powered micrometers are clumsy to handle. Unless you buy high quality digital calipers you are wasting your time. I don't see much benefit for either.
I have a number of high quality mikes. They are all mechanical. It would be pointless to replace one of them and have an odd ball in the bunch. I am sure not going to replace ALL of them just for clumsy to handle battery powered versions that are used infrequently like blade mikes, multi-anvil mikes, tubing mikes and mikes from 2" up to 6".

132358

In the eyes of the beholder, in other words, your opinion.

I have both dial and digital. I have U.S. calibers Starrett brand, and Mitutoyo, and Harbor Freight. All are accurate, at least in my hands, spent more than a few years as a tool maker.

[jmorris]

I was wondering how this thread was still running 3 pages later, you switched topics.


I simply don't trust them.

I don't trust them either, "good", "cheap", micrometer or caliper but that is why I own standards and gauge blocks.

From what I have found, I own more "good" stuff than "cheap" stuff, the 5 or so $9 calipers I have are just as accurate as the ones I spent more money on.

I still prefer quality dials though but that is just me.

http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv5/qvideo/IMG_20150104_133015_996-1_zpsbabb46c4.jpg

[EDG]

Clumsy according to hundreds of co-workers since the mid 1960s.
Very few electronic micrometers were ever used. Digital calipers were faily common the last 20 years.

BTW your tools (calibers) are accurate compared to what?
I doubt that anything from HF can be calibrated for use in a ISO or Military qualified shop.



In the eyes of the beholder, in other words, your opinion.

I have both dial and digital. I have U.S. calibers Starrett brand, and Mitutoyo, and Harbor Freight. All are accurate, at least in my hands, spent more than a few years as a tool maker.

[EDG]

Anyone can make dial calipers do that if they look.

Can you do that blind over and over so that only your touch determines the measurement?


I was wondering how this thread was still running 3 pages later, you switched topics.



I don't trust them either, "good", "cheap", micrometer or caliper but that is why I own standards and gauge blocks.

From what I have found, I own more "good" stuff than "cheap" stuff, the 5 or so $9 calipers I have are just as accurate as the ones I spent more money on.

I still prefer quality dials though but that is just me.

http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv5/qvideo/IMG_20150104_133015_996-1_zpsbabb46c4.jpg

[country gent]

When certifying calipers there are several measuring surfaces to check. A set of gage blocks and accesory set makes this easier. Alnog with a surface plate. The knife edges need to be checked with a gage block and uprights to get inside measurement. There are 2 means of depth measuring with calipers. One is the depth rod from the back. The other is from outer edge of movable jaw to edge of fixed jaw. All these need to be checked to qualify the tool completely. I have seen alot of tools where the outside jaws were true and accurate to zero. The knife or inside jaws were up to .002 small to this. The depth rods out the back was off a few thousandths and the fixed jaw to movable would be right or close. But all need to be checked. ANother issue are calipers with centers added to set dividers and trammel points accuratly. These also need to be checked. My 12" and 24" calipers have these added to them. a couple center points one fixed jaw and other on moveable jaw. In use caliper is set to dimension and dividers or trammel points walked into the points to set. All these need to be qualified before trusting them.

[EDG]

Those are good comments. I have not used center points on calipers in 40 years.
I have seen old timers take a measurement with the inside jaws and lock the caliper. Then take an OD mike and measure the calipers. It was not very good practice but no one trusted the inside jaws of calipers for close work.

The very large heavy duty B&S and Starrett vernier calipers (24" and 48") use surfaces ground on the outside of the jaws for inside measurement. I found these calipers to be pretty good when compared to a Pi Tape or a large micrometer.


When certifying calipers there are several measuring surfaces to check. A set of gage blocks and accesory set makes this easier. Alnog with a surface plate. The knife edges need to be checked with a gage block and uprights to get inside measurement. There are 2 means of depth measuring with calipers. One is the depth rod from the back. The other is from outer edge of movable jaw to edge of fixed jaw. All these need to be checked to qualify the tool completely. I have seen alot of tools where the outside jaws were true and accurate to zero. The knife or inside jaws were up to .002 small to this. The depth rods out the back was off a few thousandths and the fixed jaw to movable would be right or close. But all need to be checked. ANother issue are calipers with centers added to set dividers and trammel points accuratly. These also need to be checked. My 12" and 24" calipers have these added to them. a couple center points one fixed jaw and other on moveable jaw. In use caliper is set to dimension and dividers or trammel points walked into the points to set. All these need to be qualified before trusting them.

[jmorris]

I have seen old timers take a measurement with the inside jaws and lock the caliper. Then take an OD mike and measure the calipers. It was not very good practice but no one trusted the inside jaws of calipers for close work.

Depending on the definition of "close work" I don't trust calipers at all.

A telescoping gauge and a micrometer is not too bad and better than trying to use a caliper or measuring the blade of a caliper with a mic.

The right tool is a bore mic.

http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv5/qvideo/IMG_20150105_155220_620_zpsf1a1c311.jpg

[jcwit]

Clumsy according to hundreds of co-workers since the mid 1960s.
Very few electronic micrometers were ever used. Digital calipers were faily common the last 20 years.

BTW your tools (calibers) are accurate compared to what?
I doubt that anything from HF can be calibrated for use in a ISO or Military qualified shop.

You know something? On this forum we are reloading and casting lead bullets.

Very few here are building space stations.
Do you trust the readout on a digital mill? Or are you still using the dials?
How much slop have you got in the screws and nuts?




I doubt that anything from HF can be calibrated for use in a ISO or Military qualified shop

You doubt, yes but you don't know, neither do I.




Clumsy according to hundreds of co-workers since the mid 1960s.

Post a link proving that statement, otherwise it is just your opinion.

[jcwit]

I have seen old timers take a measurement with the inside jaws and lock the caliper. Then take an OD mike and measure the calipers. It was not very good practice but no one trusted the inside jaws of calipers for close work.



I my first 71 years I've seen "Old Timers" do and claim all sorts of things. Some correct, many not so. But hey, it was the voice of "experience".

Progress is an evil thing for some.

[jcwit]

Depending on the definition of "close work" I don't trust calipers at all.

A telescoping gauge and a micrometer is not too bad and better than trying to use a caliper or measuring the blade of a caliper with a mic.

The right tool is a bore mic.

http://i664.photobucket.com/albums/vv5/qvideo/IMG_20150105_155220_620_zpsf1a1c311.jpg

Right you are!

[country gent]

At work we occassionaly ( every couple years or so it seemed like) got a list sent to the tool room gage and lay out. They had several functions which included the yearly certification of company and personal tooling. This list was a running composite of what was passing and also more important what wasnt. ( If your company used tools didnt pass they were replaced buy the company, but new thru the first time if they didnt pass it was up to you) and I dont remeber seeing harbor frieght or the budget tools on the passed list very often. I did have a Starret Junior indicator that passed yearly. This was a mechanical with the exterior spring, probably 80 years old. Top of the list was B&S, Starret, luffkin, Federal, Mititoyo, and a few others. Indicators were also tested normally on name brand after years of use the ball on finger indicators would develop a flat and need replaced.

[smokeywolf]

I have three of the Intramiks. They are pleasure to use and accurate, but don't easily reveal an out of round condition. I use dial bore gages for I.D. measurements most of the time. In addition to having spent 30+ years earning my living as a mechanical designer/machinist and accumulating tens of thousands of dollars in tools myself. Dad worked in aerospace and because gov't contracts included the cost of tooling, at the end of a contract the tooling has to be liquidated and the money refunded to the gov't. The company dad worked for would box the smaller tools, put the weight of the contents on the outside of the box and it would be auctioned to the employees. Back in the late '50s to early '60s, dad bought Intramiks like those shown in the above picture for about $7.00 a pound.

smokeywolf

[jcwit]

At work we occassionaly ( every couple years or so it seemed like) got a list sent to the tool room gage and lay out. They had several functions which included the yearly certification of company and personal tooling. This list was a running composite of what was passing and also more important what wasnt. ( If your company used tools didnt pass they were replaced buy the company, but new thru the first time if they didnt pass it was up to you) and I dont remeber seeing harbor frieght or the budget tools on the passed list very often. I did have a Starret Junior indicator that passed yearly. This was a mechanical with the exterior spring, probably 80 years old. Top of the list was B&S, Starret, luffkin, Federal, Mititoyo, and a few others. Indicators were also tested normally on name brand after years of use the ball on finger indicators would develop a flat and need replaced.

That's why I mentioned way back in post #59 where I mentioned a few of the brands of calibers I own, among a few other well known brands. No idea why I have so many, just picked them up over the years.

Today my main use of measuring instruments is in reloading. The Harbor Freight both dial or digital handle this just fine.

Harbor Freight calibers handled rough & tough duty just fine back in my working days. For fine work the Brown & Sharp, Starrett, and Mit's came out of the Tool Chest.

[EDG]

More than most of us would want to know about micrometers.
This has some information about care and use of mikes as well as photos of many different obscure and not so obscure micrometers - I think the guy is a collector.

http://cofes.com/Portals/0/COFES_2012/COFES2012_MICROMETERS.pdf

[alamogunr]

More than most of us would want to know about micrometers.
This has some information about care and use of mikes as well as photos of many different obscure and not so obscure micrometers - I think the guy is a collector.

http://cofes.com/Portals/0/COFES_2012/COFES2012_MICROMETERS.pdf

There probably is more than I wanted to know about micrometers in that link, but I've only gone thru 11 pages so far and don't see myself stopping soon. I may be up all night.

This has apparently been around for awhile. I saw references to "recent" Lufkin products. I could be off base but I thought Lufkin discontinued manufacture of precision tools over 45 years ago. I say that because I saw Lufkin measuring tools on closeout at an industrial hardware store in Lansing, Michigan back in about 1966 or 1967. They told me Lufkin had discontinued them.

EDIT: In reading further, the author recognizes the above about Lufkin. States that they discontinued precision tool manufacture in 1966

[EDG]

When I first started working in machine shops in the 1960s there were still a lot of nice Lufkin tools around. If you survey the Lufkin mikes on ebay most seem to have accumulated another 40 years of hard use. There do not seem to be many like new Lufkins left.

I posted that file in case anyone fell in love with an odd brand mike. It taught me to stay away from many mikes unless I consider them throw aways since parts may only be found by buying another mike to cannibalize.

[country gent]

Lufkins were a quality well built tool and there are still alot around and still in good accurate shape. Proves buying quality pays off

[smokeywolf]

My 18 inch machinist's square (with all three heads) is Lufkin. At least as good, if not better than, Starrett or B & S. All of my measuring instruments are Lufkin, L.S. Starrett, Brown & Sharpe, Compac, Tesa, Scherr Tumico or Mitutoyo

smokeywolf

[Motor]

Clumsy according to hundreds of co-workers since the mid 1960s.
Very few electronic micrometers were ever used. Digital calipers were faily common the last 20 years.

BTW your tools (calibers) are accurate compared to what?
I doubt that anything from HF can be calibrated for use in a ISO or Military qualified shop.

EDG, I do agree with most of your points but I did work in a ISO/DOD shop until 2012. We had all our precision calibration done out of house. I've seen plenty of really cheap calipers pass cal along with my China made 3-4 mic that I bought back in the 1990's as kind of a test.

I did however see some of these cheap calipes ware to the point that they would not pass cal much sooner than better quality tools.

Motor