Have you ever heard of this?

[W.R.Buchanan]

I bought a Springfield Sporter a few months ago. It is an 03A3 and a decent gun,,, After I redid the stock.

I am having a bit of a problem figuring out what caliber this gun has been rechambered to.

It is .30 cal as the barrel has not been recut. The bolt face has been altered to accommodate a .530 rimmed case, and the rear of the chamber that I can see appears to have a counterbore for a belted case.

It will not close on a .300 Win Mag case. So I thought it was .308 Norma Mag as many 03A3's were converted to that caliber. However after testing one of those cases tonight it won't close on it either and it hangs the bolt up at the same place as the .300WM case does. It appears that the OD of the shoulder of the case is holding it from closing. Meaning that the case dia forward has got to be smaller.

After checking the dimensions of the .300 H&H it appears the only one left that could possibly fit the hole, however those cases are .290 longer than the .308 Norma, and .230 longer than the .300WM.

There are not a whole lot of options left here? IE belted .30 cal.

Has anyone seen an 03A3 converted to .300 H&H? Without any mod to the bolt stop?

If this thing was in .300 H&H I would put some more money and time into it and make it really nice.

If I had some of that Cerrosafe stuff I'd make a chamber cast and be done with the speculation, however right now I am in a quandary.

Any ideas or other possibilities are welcome information.

Randy

[fast ronnie]

There is another wildcat that was the forerunner of the 308 norma, but it has nearly identical dimensions. I don't know what the changes are, but it is called a .30-.338. I'm not sure, but to my understanding, those two are close enough for all practical purposes to be the same round, although I know they are not exact.

[303Guy]

The 308 Norma magnum is shown as having a belt diameter of .530 while the H&H and derivatives have a diameter of .532. The case body is also .001 larger at the belt junction. Or so the drawings show.

[RustyReel]

.30 Ackley Mag ?? Seems there was a long and short version. I don't have the specs but maybe another member has his literature and can help out with dimensions. Sorta a "natural" fit for a Springfied Sporter. If that is what it turns out to be, I wouldn't change it...... just a thought.

[W.R.Buchanan]

the .30-.338 and the .308 Norma are nearly identical. Also .001-2 here or there will not make any difference in chambering a round unless the case is right at the top of the tolerance already.

I first tried to chamber the .308 Norma case which was made from a .300H&H case and fired in a Shultz and Larsen Rifle. It wouldn't go and appears to be in contact with the chamber right at the edge of the shoulder.

We then full length sized that case and it still wouldn't go and after blacking the case in the afore mentioned area showed rubbing at the shoulder.

I will drop small Telescoping gage down the hole today and see if I can get a measurement on the shoulder area of the chamber. and an OAL of the chamber.

Maybe that will point me in the right direction.

Randy

[gnoahhh]

Sounds like a candidate for a chamber casting. That would put paid to any guesswork as to what the chambering is.

[M-Tecs]

If I had some of that Cerrosafe stuff I'd make a chamber cast and be done with the speculation, however right now I am in a quandary.

Randy

Randy

Brownells is out but Midway has it http://www.midwayusa.com/product/462291/cerrosafe-chamber-casting-alloy-1-2-lb

I have some that you can use but I need it back. The beauty of Cerrosafe is the accurate size you can get from it. In this case you only need a rough idea on chambers size. I would do a hot glue cast. Hard wax will also work.

If you want a cerrosafe I can send you a pound and you can send it back when done.

Good thread on hot glue casting http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?17577-Casting-hot-glue-boolits

[salpal48]

Since you said It has not been rebarreled What you may have is a .30 short Ackley #2 . . This was a shortened Mag case to fit in an Unaltered 06. by just rechambering. It differs from a .30 short Ackley. #1 mag where the original 06 barrel cannot be used.
If you are able to Refer to Vol 1 Of his book he show a Photo of Each. The #2 is the long of the 2 but both will fit in a standard springfield action
Sal

[TNsailorman]

Without seeing it, my thinking is that it could be an Ackley .30 short magnum. Ackley made 2 .30 short magnum cases. The first was called a No. 1 .30 Short magnum and the other was called a No. 2 .30 Short magnum. Both were formed from .300 magnum cases. I have Ackley's 2 books on his wildcats but they don't give specific dimensions, just a description of each. I get the impression that both have the same shoulder length as the 30-06 but he does not state this as fact. The No.1 required the barrel to be set back one turn so that 30-06's would not chamber in the rifle. No.2 did not require the barrel set back. Both were meant to be able to re-chamber for a magnum case in a standard length action. Ackley preferred the number 2 because it was a more simple conversion and only required opening the bolt face and a re-chambering reamer. what little I know anyway, james

[nekshot]

I am officially off the forum for rest but I could not resist taking a peek what was happening here and I saw this. Now this almost akin to finding a 57 vette that some guy stuck a 375-396 into the engine room! I have some old dies that are old magnums that were not normal and if I have a 30 cal close to your dimensions you can have it. I got cleared yesterday of any blood clots around heart and no hole in heart so I am getting spunky again.

[MarkP]

If you do a chamber casting lightly oil the chamber, I always used cotton to plug the bore.

[Artful]

PO Ackley info
http://www.gundigest.com/wp-content/uploads/GunDigestPOAckley.pdf

The Donnellys' book on conversions shows a .30 #1 Ackley Short Magnum.
Case-2.482"
Head-.513"
Rim-.532"
Neck Dia.-.340"
Neck Length-.390"
Belt-.532"
Shoulder Dia.-.488"
Shoulder Angle - 27.52
Length from base to shoulder - 1.95"
Make from .300 H&H Mag, says form dies required.

The Donnellys' book on conversions shows a
.30 #2 Ackley Short Magnum.
Case-2.64"
Head-.513"
Rim-.532"
Neck Dia.-.340"
Neck Length-.390"
Belt-.532"
Shoulder Dia.-.490"
Shoulder Angle-21.75
Length from base to shoulder 2.062"

fair number of other gunsmiths made their own versions to
rechamber .30-06 to magnum cases.

Apex, Bennett, Gibbs etc.

[Mk42gunner]

This sounds like a very good candidate for chamber casting. There were a plethora of full length "improved" .300 magnums that I can think of, and probably just as many short ,i.e. .30-06 length, versions.

Good Luck,

Robert

[W.R.Buchanan]

Yes I think that a chamber cast is in order. Too many possibilities here. Apparently I have lived a very sheltered life as even though I have read about these other cartridges, I have never seen nor heard of anyone doing such a thing. I have the cartridge conversion book as well and read about these variations earlier today.

An oddball caliber would be so far beyond what a normal gunsmith or enthusiast would be likely to build as a possible conversion, that I can only imagine a few people who would actually do this. IE; PO Ackley and/or Friends of PO Ackley. Why would someone build something like this when there are factory loaded ammo for the .308 Norma which is very close to all of these Ackley Wildcats?

But really my biggest question is,,,,

Why someone,,, Most likely a Licensed Gunsmith,,, would change a gun to a bastard caliber and NOT MARK THE FRIGGING BARREL? This is completely beyond me!

I'll figure it out soon.

Randy

Nekshot: Do get real spunky! Good to hear you are feeling better. Randy

[Mk42gunner]

Ah, but you are forgetting the time line here.

I don't know exactly when the 03-A3's were released for sale, but I am betting it was very shortly after hostilities ended in 1945. I also think GCA-68 was when the gov't started saying you needed a license to work on guns. There were a lot of people that reworked milsurp rifles in the years in between.

If a kitchen table or basement gunsmith reworked that rifle for his own use, I can see them not stamping the caliber on it; after all, he knew what it was. And really, if it was stamped something like ".300 Buck Basher" it wouldn't really give you the needed info. Too bad the loading dies didn't come with it.

The .300 Norma Mag didn't come out until something like 1959 IIRC, The .338 Win Mag was '56 so a .30-338 almost had to be later than that.

Whoever built it could have made his own chamber reamer, too. the .530" bolt face sounds like he used a piece of brass as a gauge instead of dimensions to open the bolt face.

It will be interesting to see what cartridge it is actually chambered for.

Robert

[Artful]

Randy, you had several forces at work -
1) Magnumitis - the urge to get more powder behind the bullet to get more speed - Roy Weatherby, PO Ackley and others fanned the flames of this movement. And when factory magnum's came out they didn't have the claims of performance that the wildcats did.

2) Availability of GOOD, CHEAP surplus rifles for conversions - as this was after WW2 and before todays plethora of available factory magnum chamberings. When I was a youth I still remember the first guy in the valley to get one of Roy Weatherby's 300 magnums. We were all amazed at the difference between it and a 30'06.

3) Availability of a lot of shade tree gunsmithing going on out behind the garage, a group of guys would chip in for a reamer and have their surplus rifles converted. Sometimes by a real gunsmith sometimes by someone who worked at a place with a lathe. Markings were secondary.

4) Cheap Surplus powder (4831 notably) in large drums - sold by the paper bag.

All these things combine to make a whole bunch of gun nuts into Bubba's

Dang it :killingpc- typing while Robert posted :goodpost:

[DCM]

Roto metals sells a chamber casting alloy for about 1/2 the price of others.

[W.R.Buchanan]

This gun came out of a cache of guns that was consigned to a store in town. The guy had died and his wife and children were liquidating all his assets (mainly low grade project guns) There was about 10 rifles of varying condition. (all the really good stuff was sold elsewhere).

This one had potential to be made into something else and I bought it thinking it was .30-06. The guy was definitely a home gunsmith as there is a P17 that has the rear sight milled off and it looks like he used a wood rasp to do the job. Others are German, Jap, Russian and other WWII vintage guns which I'm not interested it.

All I have done to this gun so far is refinish the stock which was half way done before I figured out it wasn't .30-06 any more. Otherwise I would have just taken it back and resold it. Unfortunately with guns in CA once you buy them ,,, You own them, and refunds are not that easy to do.

I looked down the barrel but didn't try to chamber a dummy round and so when I got it home I finally figured out that it wasn't what I thought. I look closer now and there is a much nicer Springfield rifle in the remaining guns that I am negotiating on and yes I did chuck up a dummy round and use a light on the bore.

I had not intended to do much with this gun. I wanted to establish the caliber as .308 Norma refinish the stock and send it down the road. It is a decent looking gun and a good hunting rifle, it has nice bluing, a nice trigger, a nicely altered bolt, and feeds rounds from the mag perfectly. It also has a Lyman Front Sight, but keeps the A3 rear sight and trigger guard. To be a proper Springfield Sporter it needs a Lyman Rear Sight and a 03 Trigger Guard/ bottom metal.

Once I figure out what caliber it is I will decide what further to do to it. I'd hate to have to rechamber it but nobody is going to buy a gun in a bastard caliber with no loading dies or loading data readily available. It would only appeal to a very seasoned gun nut who was knowledgeable enough to figure out a load for it and willing to take on the project.

I bought the gun to speculate on and add value to so we'll see what happens with it.

Randy

[Artful]

Rent a standard caliber reamer and it should sell easily.

[RustyReel]

Randy, what would it take to have this one sent "down the road"?? As a mystery gun, of course. Just curious, because as I noted in your earlier post about this rifle, I love this bubba stuff.

[salpal48]

Pm to You

[TNsailorman]

Parker was more interested in producing efficient calibers than having a case of magnum chasing. He used the .300 case a lot because he knew that he could shorten it up and get more efficiency out of it than the longer case(read less powder doing the same or near the same velocities). He stated that the most efficient case he ever produced was the .257 Roberts Ackley Improved as it would give almost the same velocity as the .25-06 with less powder. Wildcatting is fun but rarely does the wildcatter save money or improve anything much. He usually ends up burning more powder with little or no gain in velocity or efficiency. Parker believed in saving money more than he believed in the god of velocity. He was extremely reasonable on the work he did on others rifles. He once offered to set back the barrel, re-bore, re-rifle the barrel on a Remington Rolling block rifle I had in .43 Spanish because ammo was next to impossible to find in the early sixties. He was to re-chamber in .45-90 and all this for $65.00. Only problem was, I didn't have $65.00 to spare in the 60's. I would be very interested in a post on this when you do your chamber cast and determine in what the caliber someone chambered the rifle.

[country gent]

In the 50 and 60s alot of wildcatting was done looking for the ultimate cartridge, Jacketed bullets were settling in as the projectile and velocites were raising. Throw in economical well built mill surpluss rifles and you have a recipe for your rifle. It was quite poular to "sporterize mill surpluss rifles into sporters, the level and quality only limited by the person doing the work. Reamers could be ground from a hand sketch or conversation. A Chamber cast will tell alot and will shed light on dimensions then to Cartridges of the world to see what matches up. Keep in mind many now "standard cartridges started as wildcats. 22-250, 7-08, 25-06, 6.5 X 284, 7-30 waters, and many others. A new case comes out and experimenters are bound to see what else can be done with it. Once dimensions are known then its hope that you can find what it really us. Or pick up a barrel and start over.

[texassako]

It sounds like you might get lucky and have a wildcat that can be cleaned up by being reamed to a factory magnum, if you want it to be something you can find off the shelf bits for.

[W.R.Buchanan]

My thanks to everyone who PM'd to help on this gun.

This is the spirit of Cast Boolits in action. Together we'll figure this thing out!

I have one member who offered up some Cerrosafe and I'll use that to cast the chamber and get a good idea of what it is. Another offered up a Ackley #1 Mag case to test. Then we'll proceed from there.

Randy

[sthwestvictoria]

The granite and sulfur chamber cast is an easy alternative. Dry lube granite powder from hardware and sulphur from garden store or chemist. One part graphite to four parts sulphur by volume. Melt and pour into an oiled, plugged chamber .

[Artful]

The granite and sulfur chamber cast is an easy alternative. Dry lube granite powder from hardware and sulphur from garden store or chemist. One part graphite to four parts sulphur by volume. Melt and pour into an oiled, plugged chamber .

Now that's old school - I remember seeing some of those at Metz Hill gunshop back in the 60/70's

[sthwestvictoria]

Now that's old school -
Sure is, Hatcher describes how to do it in his notebook but it sure works well and saves waiting for a Cerrosafe order to arrive. This is my 1894 chamber:
129827