Winchester 32-40 My Next Problem Question?

[Terryrm1-03]

Got my mixed brass from great guys here on this website. Got some 155 gr gas checked lead boolits .321 from another great guy here.
I put in 7.0 grs of Green dot. I luv this stuff!
Chronographed at 1230-1260 fps.

Grouped real nice at 50yds, 2-3" not benched.

But now my problem......... Primers are backing out 1/16".
I've been reloading since 1983. Never seen this before.

Any ideas?????
Thanks Terry
PS this rifle is 1895 vintage

[Ragnarok]

Long on headspace or thin on rim

[Jon K]

.0625" is a lot.
Have you measured it?
Around .025" is more typical for some of the old guns.
There are some work arounds for this, if it is not excessive.

Jon

[Terryrm1-03]

.0625" is a lot.
Have you measured it?
Around .025" is more typical for some of the old guns.
There are some work arounds for this, if it is not excessive.


JonWOW, I was just guessing. I measured my last 10 rounds shot. .021-.022!
This is typical? Glad to hear that! Sure had me scared I was overcharging my cases.
But when I chrono'd and was getting 1200 fps I knew I was in good shape.
Thanks for the info.
TR

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Well that is a lot better. A sixteenth of an inch would be really alarming, and could probably result from some dangerous condition, besides being dangerous in its own right. .021in. of protrusion is pretty safe with low pressures, but I wouldn't feel happy when the rifle (as the Browning Winchesters can be) is loaded to considerably higher pressures.

This extrusion of the primers is a very interesting and in a way healthy phenomenon. It shows that the adhesion of the case in the chamber is preventing it from being forced backwards, and that much hard cartridge brass has quite a bit of strength. P.O. Ackley describes a series of tests with a condemned94 Winchester,rechambered to the very straight-bodied .30-30 Improved. Factory .30-30cartridges were fired with the barrel unscrewed by one or even two turns of its20 t.p.i. thread, the latter with the firing-pin lengthened. The primer wasextruded, of course - but it was not reseated or mushroomed, as it would havebeen if internal pressure had pushed the case backward. Less alarmingly, my own.40-82 Winchester,like many medium-pressure rifles, extrudes its primers by all .005in. of itssafe and normal headspace clearance.

In neither of these rifles is thecase pushed back into contact with the bolt face – or, it follows, able toexert any thrust upon it. As conclusive proof, Ackley removed his locking-lugaltogether, with no ill effects. The pressure was borne by case strength, and momen­tary adhesion of thecase in the chamber due to expansion. So in thisparti­cular set of circumstances, these rifles might as well have had no boltat all.
Sowhy do we show such an obstinate preference for strong actions over weak ones,and for having locking systems when they are such an inconvenience? Becausecase adhesion depends on a dry and oil-free chamber, on the shape and conditionof the case, on normal ignition, on efficient ignition and probably on several factors I have notthought of. If my .40-82 cases had taken to partly adhering and partly being forced back against the bolt fact, I think head separations after a few firings would have resulted. .021 might do this first time.

I sized my cases just enough to keep them against the bolt face on closing the action, which worked well with loads pretty much like the high velocity smokeless ones Winchester briefly marketed, and stopped when they needed to market the .30-30 for superior performance. Accurately neck-sizing the .32-40, which doesn't have a shoulder, might be difficult. But it might be a good idea to at least reduce the headspace in this way.

[EDG]

>>It shows that the adhesion of the case in the chamber is preventing it from being forced backwards<<

You may be misinterpreting this phenomenon a little. The primer backs out when the brass is forced forward by the primer ignition.

There is pressure inside the primer pocket that helps keep the case pushed forward. It is not all case sticking to the chamber wall.

Tight headspace and a polished chamber is a better set up to prevent your brass from stretching.

[Frank46]

Your light loads with Green dot may or may not have the pressure for the brass to hold the chamber walls. I've noticed this When working up a cast boolit load. Seems the light load and primer backing out slightly do happen but once the pressure gets to what the rifle likes it stops. I load some old Hansen Cartridge company 7.62x54R brass bought way back then. Got lucky and bought 15 boxes pulled the bullets gave the powder away and deprimed the brass. Those old cases have deep primer pockets. And since the moisin's firing pin is adjustable for protrusion it worked out. I did not that seating the primers in those old cases did leave the primer well below the head of the case. Then when fired the primer was level with the head of the case. I'm guesstimating that approx .10 thousandths between unfired and unfired. My norma cases don't show this. The norma cases were once loaded ammo as when it was imported by Federal under the American Eagle line. Frank

[Ballistics in Scotland]

>>It shows that the adhesion of the case in the chamber is preventing it from being forced backwards<<

You may be misinterpreting this phenomenon a little. The primer backs out when the brass is forced forward by the primer ignition.

There is pressure inside the primer pocket that helps keep the case pushed forward. It is not all case sticking to the chamber wall.

Tight headspace and a polished chamber is a better set up to prevent your brass from stretching.


The primer composition is a high explosive, and that pressure has come and gone before the pressure of the powder gases has built up appreciably. I didn't get any extrusion when I popped a primer in a powderless and unbulleted case.

While the best thing to do is to correct the headspace, a clean and polished chamber is the best substitute.

[OverMax]

Per Frank 46Your light loads with Green dot may or may not have the pressure for the brass to hold the chamber walls I agree.
Just my 2 cents of advice: _You know better than that being a seasoned reloader. "Using a powder recipe published for a much heavier bullet weight."

For those who don't know: In this situation a 155 gr bullet was used that is approximately 10 grs lighter than the published 32-40 Minimum and the use of a powder recipe published for a heavier weight bullet was measured. Info found in my book/s suggest using a bullet weighs of 164-170 or 184 gr. and have published powder recipes for those bullet weights.

My Reference used and commented from: Lyman's 45th Edition Reloader Handbook dated 1970.

[cuzinbruce]

I have had primers back out when I fired them without bullet or powder. (Testing old primers to see if they were any good before loading anything) Backed out almost enough to tie up the revolver cylinder. I have also had primers back out a bit with real light loads in rifles.

[John Taylor]

You got a head space problem. This is common on model 94s as most were a little on the loose side. Wisners has new locking bolts in .005, .010 and .015" oversize. The 32-20 does not have enough pressure to stretch the brass so with a head space problem the cartridge is pushed forward till the rim hits the barrel. The walls of the cartridge keep it from moving back to the bolt face so the primer backs out. The amount the primer is sticking out is the amount of head space. Most 94s will be .004 to .010" but I have had a few in that were over .025". On lever guns if you set the head space tight they will not open easy when fired.

[Terryrm1-03]

You got a head space problem. This is common on model 94s as most were a little on the loose side. Wisners has new locking bolts in .005, .010 and .015" oversize. The 32-20 does not have enough pressure to stretch the brass so with a head space problem the cartridge is pushed forward till the rim hits the barrel. The walls of the cartridge keep it from moving back to the bolt face so the primer backs out. The amount the primer is sticking out is the amount of head space. Most 94s will be .004 to .010" but I have had a few in that were over .025". On lever guns if you set the head space tight they will not open easy when fired.
Thanks for the headsup here!
I'm going to try heavier bullets, and different powder. Then check more on how much the primer is backing out. Will consider a new bolt.
Terry