Lee enfield no4 7.62mm

[jr86]

Hey guys. I picked this up on the weekend, thought you might like to see. It's a long branch Lee Enfield factory converted to 7.62x51 NATO. They call these DCRA conversions because the dominion of Canada rifle association had created the program for Canadian Arsenals Ltd. (formerly longbranch) to convert them. There was a name on the butt stock and it turns out this one was owned by former DCRA President and international shooting competitor Lt-Col J.T. Steele. Very cool piece of history as only something like 2000 were ever converted. It has a Parker Hale rear sight and all in all im quite happy with it. I've done some early testing and scored a 1.3" 5 shot group at 100 yards with one of my loads. (200gr GC .309)

http://i885.photobucket.com/albums/ac51/newguy331/IMG_1649_zpscfb6779c.jpg (http://s885.photobucket.com/user/newguy331/media/IMG_1649_zpscfb6779c.jpg.html)

http://i885.photobucket.com/albums/ac51/newguy331/IMG_1645_zps1dd33572.jpg (http://s885.photobucket.com/user/newguy331/media/IMG_1645_zps1dd33572.jpg.html)

On the right.

http://i885.photobucket.com/albums/ac51/newguy331/IMG_1655_zps9da0ca20.jpg (http://s885.photobucket.com/user/newguy331/media/IMG_1655_zps9da0ca20.jpg.html)

[Scharfschuetze]

How cool is that!

[leebuilder]

Realy nice rifle. Neat PH sight never seen one of those before. Is it single shot?.

[jr86]

That's a parker hale 5A target sight actually meant for a No1 mk3. The majority of the original owner's shooting career was pre No4 rifle so I believe when he got this one he transferred it over. Yes it is single shot. Unless you have a mag you d like to sell me? :)

[leebuilder]

Hey jr86. Figured it was single shot, they were built that way, but there are a few repeaters out there. Wish i had a mag too.
Those PH sights are nice, could not tell it was the earlier model for No1 mk3 by the picture,
Again nice rifle, a handsome addition to any collection.

[BruceB]

Well, I'm jealous!

When I still lived in Canada, a good friend in Yellowknife had a similar rifle which also had a Lyman 17 front sight added inside the as-issued "ears" up front.

His rear sight was the correct #5C from Parker-Hale, designed for the #4. I have a #5C on one of my .303 #4s, and it's a work of art.

That sight on the rifle....is it modified to fit a #4?

My friend's rifle carried the "MP" markings denoting use by the Royal Canadian Mounted Police..... he wouldn't part with it, but has since passed away and I have no idea what became of the rifle.

As I said.... I'm jealous. The #4, even as a single-shot, is my all-time favorite military rifle. Having one in 7.62 NATO would be a real pleasure.

[jr86]

Oh Bruce! I've followed you work with M1As quite a bit. I knew the second I saw this gun I had to have it. It's my 4th enfield and 3rd no4. I actually quite enjoy my .303 British but the history and sights on this gun made it a must have. This one will exclusively see target use. I'm not sure if/how the sight was modified to be attached. On a number 1 it attaches to the reciever around the safety area. I'm not sure if they differ between marks. J.T. Steele won the governor general's prize in 1925 and competed in the Bisley tournament a number of years with his last being in 1948. In the 50s he was the president of the DCRA and has since been inducted into their hall of fame. I would imagine this rifle has been serviced and tweaked by men far greater than I, I'm and very reluctant to disassemble anything on it for fear of messing up anything. Like I said, early tests suggests it's going to be an amazing shooter. Also of note is that the butt stock is actually a no1mk3 butt. I'm speculating that the Lt-Col wanted to keep the brass disk name plate with his current competition gun. It's a 1944 long branch no4 mk1* never FTRed. The one on the left is the same but in it's original .303

i love these guns

Jeremy

[BruceB]

Yes indeed.

The rifle is a treasure in its own right, and with the factual provenance on its ownership and use , it's also a museum-worthy piece.

One of the trophies I saw at Connaught Ranges outside Ottawa in 1961 was a huge board-type affair. On the trophy "plaque" (at least five feet wide!) was mounted a REAL #4 rifle which was completely silver-plated.... including the wood!

I don't recall what event the trophy was intended for, but it had many annual plates to be suitably engraved for its winners over the years. My then-teen-age mind was highly impressed.

It's surprising to some to see the great results that can be accomplished by skilled shooters with iron sights. My issued "target-quality" #4 and its P-H #5C sight had little difficulty hitting the 29" bull at 1000 yards.... IF I did my part correctly. If one's final score was less than 47 or 48 points out of the possible 50 at 1000 yards, you were FAR down the prize list.

We fired one 1000-yard match at Connaught in a howling gale, maybe as much as 40 mph gusts, and doing the arithmetic later, we determined that our windage corrections were taking the .303 bullets as much as EIGHTEEN FEET upwind in order for them to curve into the 1000-yard target.

Some bullets actually were lost by striking the posts of the wind flags, spaced 100 yards apart all the way downrange.... normally they were well out of the way.

That full summer of training to be a rifle coach sure taught me a lot about shooting... and instilled great respect and admiration for the #4. You are very fortunate, to own such a fine and historical rifle.

[Petrol & Powder]

That is super cool !!!

[303Guy]

Great find! Great accuracy.

Could it be that he had only the brass parts transferred? The safety notch in the butt indicates it's a No4 stock.

[Duster340]

Nice Score! Love that adjustable rear sight.

[Artful]

Very Good find - I'm jealous - what kind of magazine are you looking for?

[jr86]

Great find! Great accuracy.

Could it be that he had only the brass parts transferred? The safety notch in the butt indicates it's a No4 stock.


It was some one on a different (Canadian) forum who suggested it was a no1 butt stock. The fact that it doesn't match the fore stock made me believe he might be right.

Bruce. If you were shooting at Connaught range in the 60s you might very well have brushed shoulders with the original owner of this rifle. John Steele http://www.dcra.ca/fame.php

also of note was that his home town is Guelph, and 2 years ago they inducted him into the Guelph Athletes hall of fame. They is very cool. Shooting sports don't get the attention they used to. I found articles in the Ottawa Gazette from the 1950s which as talked in length about DCRA compititions and Bisley.

now back to the rifle. I found the parker hale 5A sights adjust in minute of angle clicks. I was hoping it would be 1/2 MOA like the newer ones. My biggest problem right now, is the only .308 brass I have was used a few times in a Chinese M14 which has wide chambers, and now they will barely fit into this rifle. I'm going to need to find some fresh brass to really test this rifle out. I d like to try and shoot a few hundred yards with it. I've never shot past 150 with irons so this will be fun!

Jeremy

[jr86]

Very Good find - I'm jealous - what kind of magazine are you looking for?

The original factory conversion did little more than change to a barreled action safe to shoot 7.62. So no extractor, ejector or magazine was modified in it. Later shooters would as those upgrades if they chose to. So this one has a modified .303 extractor I believe. Ground so it can "jump the rim" easier since you have to single load it. The .303 mag sits too low to feed rounds from. The ejector upgrade was done by drilling a new hole forward of the old ejector screw and putting a new one in. When I shot this rifle from a bench I actually found it easiest to shoot it with the magazine out. I had it on front and rear sand bags so when I would open the bolt the spent case would fall through the mag well and I would place a new round in the chamber. Otherwise you have to fish it out. There are a few 7.62 mags for no4 rifles out there. Sterling is a company that offered a conversion kit in England and their mags are supposed to work perfectly without modification. However they are hard to find and command a price tag north of $150.

[Hardcast416taylor]

Just an observation. With the Parker -Hale rear peep sight positioned as it is and the size of it in general - how do you operate the safety lever?Robert

[leebuilder]

That is a neat rifle, and it has known history, love that stuff. Shot at Connaught in 97, quite the experience and saw that chrome No4 (may have my drool on it). The sniper throphy is neat too.
I read somewhere that they started to make the butt stocks interchangable, easy fix to fit them.

Does the barrel have bayonet lugs? The first few made had them.
I posted a while back pics of my No4 target rifle. Mine shoots better with out a mag too, kind like how the casings fall below the rifle in a neat pile.

[jr86]

It's a single shot. What do you need a safety for? It can be used but it's very difficult to operate. I don't really just it on my other enfields, I just use the half cock safety.
No bayonet lugs on barrel. Just the coolest marking on this gun.

http://i885.photobucket.com/albums/ac51/newguy331/06331AD8-8A9B-4D79-8B3B-A6FE5BE526D8_zpsuun9miyc.jpg (http://s885.photobucket.com/user/newguy331/media/06331AD8-8A9B-4D79-8B3B-A6FE5BE526D8_zpsuun9miyc.jpg.html)

i also meant to upload a pic of the odd front sight. I haven't figured that one out yet. Interchangeable blade widths? Adjustable for elevation? It has a double dove tail lol.

http://i885.photobucket.com/albums/ac51/newguy331/3EAC4C89-370A-4D87-A3E1-0F56BD8EC12B_zps3cxzvwng.jpg (http://s885.photobucket.com/user/newguy331/media/3EAC4C89-370A-4D87-A3E1-0F56BD8EC12B_zps3cxzvwng.jpg.html)

[leebuilder]

Niffty marking on the barrel.
never seen a front sight like that. You can see the increase in hieght. I would hazard to guess it would fit to a PH front sight. Like the one found on some model 12/15 and 13. Just a guess.

[Artful]

However they are hard to find and command a price tag north of $150.

Any way to modify say Enfield Model 2A .308 / 7.62 mm 10 Round Magazine (http://www.e-sarcoinc.com/ishapormag308762.aspx)?

[303Guy]

I just use the half cock safety.
I did that once, the first time I took my rifle out hunting. Sometime during the day I decided I should actually test it to see how safe it really was. It fired! I should have tried it on an empty chamber. It's for locking the bolt on an empty chamber so the bolt won't drop open and spill cartridges out the magazine. Had that happen too. One should never close a bolt on a chambered round with the trigger depressed either. It can fire! Ask me how I know.[smilie=1: The striker can drop down fast enough on rotating the bolt to indent the primer, especially if the case is ahead of the extractor. I have the holes to prove it!:roll:

[leebuilder]

Wow 303 guy. Been there!!!.
Be safe.
I have never used a safety on a civie range. You are loaded and shooting or unloaded and off the line. During military matches i have used a safety. Never a big fan of the half cock, since i scared a big deer away with the click for it. Live and learn

[jr86]

Good information to know thanks! I've really only shot my enfields on ranges and farms. Where I live, hunting rifles are restricted to calibers .275 and below.

[Reverend Al]

Just thought I'd add an update to this old thread. I also have one of the DCRA 7.62x51 Nato conversions on a No. 4 Lee Enfield. I've been told that there were about 2,000 of them converted in total and mine is marked as number "1538". The bore is perfect and I look forward to getting it out to shoot sometime soon. I've owned it for about 2 years, but with so many other project guns on the go it has been neglected ... until now. At our last local gun show I actually managed to find some real live "unicorn poop" ... a Sterling 7.62 Nato 10 shot magazine for the No. 4 Lee Enfield! With just a minimal amount of fitting work this one is now a perfect fit in my 7.62 Nato conversion rifle and feeds, extracts, and ejects the dummy test rounds I put together flawlessly. Now I'm a bit more excited about getting it out to test it at the range.
Just curious if you did more testing in your rifle and what you've been shooting in it for loads? I'll be shooting both "boolits" and "bullets" in mine, since I have a fairly large supply of pulled 147 grain FMJBT Canadian bullets to load for it, plus several different mould options which will produce "boolits" from 125 to 220 grains. Since I'll just be shooting it at our local range as a casual target rifle I was planning to load down to sensible pressures for the jacketed loads considering the age of the rifle and the No. 4 Lee Enfield action. I would think that pressures in the 42,000 to 44,000 pound pressure range should be safe and suitable.
Here are a few teaser photos ...

http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd466/Reverend_Al/Lee%20Enfield%20No%204%20in%20762x51%20Nato/Lee%20Enfield%20No%204%207.62%20Nato%20conversion% 20rifle%20001%20Large_zpspzihebzj.jpg (http://s1221.photobucket.com/user/Reverend_Al/media/Lee%20Enfield%20No%204%20in%20762x51%20Nato/Lee%20Enfield%20No%204%207.62%20Nato%20conversion% 20rifle%20001%20Large_zpspzihebzj.jpg.html)

http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd466/Reverend_Al/Lee%20Enfield%20No%204%20in%20762x51%20Nato/Lee%20Enfield%20No%204%207.62%20Nato%20conversion% 20rifle%20003%20Large_zpsavxaxz2z.jpg (http://s1221.photobucket.com/user/Reverend_Al/media/Lee%20Enfield%20No%204%20in%20762x51%20Nato/Lee%20Enfield%20No%204%207.62%20Nato%20conversion% 20rifle%20003%20Large_zpsavxaxz2z.jpg.html)

http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd466/Reverend_Al/Lee%20Enfield%20No%204%20in%20762x51%20Nato/Lee%20Enfield%20No%204%207.62%20Nato%20conversion% 20rifle%20008%20Large_zpsxr1nyeys.jpg (http://s1221.photobucket.com/user/Reverend_Al/media/Lee%20Enfield%20No%204%20in%20762x51%20Nato/Lee%20Enfield%20No%204%207.62%20Nato%20conversion% 20rifle%20008%20Large_zpsxr1nyeys.jpg.html)

http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd466/Reverend_Al/Lee%20Enfield%20No%204%20in%20762x51%20Nato/Lee%20Enfield%20No%204%207.62%20Nato%20conversion% 20rifle%20004%20Large_zps1jcxojf0.jpg (http://s1221.photobucket.com/user/Reverend_Al/media/Lee%20Enfield%20No%204%20in%20762x51%20Nato/Lee%20Enfield%20No%204%207.62%20Nato%20conversion% 20rifle%20004%20Large_zps1jcxojf0.jpg.html)

http://i1221.photobucket.com/albums/dd466/Reverend_Al/Lee%20Enfield%20No%204%20in%20762x51%20Nato/Lee%20Enfield%20No%204%207.62%20Nato%20conversion% 20rifle%20009%20Large_zpssmzq8io9.jpg (http://s1221.photobucket.com/user/Reverend_Al/media/Lee%20Enfield%20No%204%20in%20762x51%20Nato/Lee%20Enfield%20No%204%207.62%20Nato%20conversion% 20rifle%20009%20Large_zpssmzq8io9.jpg.html)

[Reverend Al]

It's fairly unlikely I'll find the proper Parker Hale 5C target rear sight to mount on this gun without having to pay two arms and a leg for it (the wood around the safety has been lightly inletted to fit one previously), so for now I bought an Adderly scope mount base so that I can mount a scope on it for load testing. (Old and blurry eyes sure don't help these days ...)

[Multigunner]

Some versions of the MLM and LE were manufactured without a safety, relying on the half cock. There were enough accidents with these that WW1 era regulations for musketry forbade use of the half cock.

Using the half cock can also lead to damage of the upper leg of the sear. I've had to straighten one of these . It appeared someone had tried to pull the trigger while at half cock and bent the sear. The bend was bad enough that when pulling the trigger at full cock the sear caught in the half cock on the way forwards damaging the nose of the sear even more and preventing firing.

[Outpost75]

Absolutely lovely rifle! You are wise to keep loads under 45,000 psi, ~2550+/-30 fps with NATO 144-148-grain FMJ with 39 grs. of RL7. otherwise you may need to swap bolt head for next longer one before barrel is shot out.

[Reverend Al]

OK, thanks for that! I have some Re7 on hand and lots of pulled military fmj bullets so I'll give that load a try and see what it does in my rifle ...

[flyin brian]

Wow, those are a neat variant I had never heard of before. Thanks for posting these up.

[leebuilder]

Reverend AL, that is one fine rifle, and a sterling mag, holy, holy grail! !!!
I picked up a PH 4T this summer, never heard of the 4T till I seen this one.
182398
PH 5E4 sight
182399
20T or 20 ton stamp
182400
Six hole disc and locking bolt clearance
182401
Massive fore arm
182402
Massive PH front sight

Be well