1851 Navy caps need some help

[Texantothecore]

I was out today with the 51 Navy and came up with some cap problems:

Using #10s on the original nipples, Remington 10s, nearly all of them ripped and impaired the action of the wheel.

I think three of 18 stayed in one piece. The action jammed and I had to move the wheel into position by hand.

On the plus side, I can have the revolver apart in under 5 seconds and reassmble it in about seven seconds.

I can remove and reinstall the wedge with thumb pressure only.

I had no "Fail to Fires".
That is a big unexpected surprise.

I hit more steel targets than the guy next to me with his tupperware semi-automatic.

The trigger is extremely smooth with a clean break. Beautiful feel.

Should I get new nipples that would hold the nipple better or would hold the seal better? The caps were really wrecked and the charge almost seems too powerful for the nipple.

What nipple would you suggest?

I will be making my own caps starting tonight and the charge will significantly less than Remingtons.

Thanks for you help.

[docone31]

The standard nipples will take a #10 cap. I am suspecting, dry firing has rounded out the nipple. If that is the case, take them out, chuck them in a drill, and with sandpaper get the bulge out.
#11s will be too loose.

[fouronesix]

With pre-slit petals and of thin material, the Remingtons tend to do that. The other thought would be the flash holes in the nipples are too large.

Could try a different brand #10 cap of thicker material. As much as I hat to say it, some of the older imported caps that CVA and others branded (mostly from Italy) are of thicker material. I don't know that CCIs would help but they might. But the lack of availability and options for caps is problematic.

It doesn't take a big flash hole in the nipple for the cap to fire the charge. A hole that's too large will however allow excessive gas back out during powder ignition/burn and shred the cap. So, might also try nipples with the small flash hole.

[Texantothecore]

The pistol has not been dryfired but I may go ahead and flatten out the edges of nipple after I test it with capgun caps which may eliminate ripping of the caps.

I love projects that don't quite go as presumed but require thought and testing.

This project is really fun. And I outshot the pansy with the tupperware pistol. He moved upwind from me after the first few shots of that stinky black powder. HA!

[fryboy]

another thought ...make sure that when the hammer is down it isnt touching the nipple , there's supposed to be a wee bit of clearance ( that the cap and the inertia of the falling hammer overcome ) sadly i cant remeber exactly the dimension of this clearance , it may be in the back of a dixie gun works catalog or on their site ( the paper catalog is way worth the price simply for the info !! )
the italian caps used to be me fav seconded by the rws's ,both are currently as scarce as hen's teeth, to be fair the rws occasionally did as yours did today

[Omnivore]

I've been down the same road, Pard. Smaller flash holes will help a little. Look for Treso nipples, or some other with about the same flash hole.

Nipple clearence or as I call it "headspace" probably won't make any difference, being that the pressure of the burn can and will blow the hammer back to some extent, no matter what.

Duelist1954 on Youtube offers one tweak for this problem; fill the safety notch in the hammer face with a hard epoxy such as JB Weld. Then the caps won't be forced into the notch, whereupon the notch grabs the spent cap and pulls it back into the hammer cutout in the frame as you cock the hammer. Smaller flash holes will also help in that regard.

The ultimate fix originated either here or elsewhere, but it's well documented also on youtube, on the "capandball" channel. Go to that channel and look around for it. It involves installing a small steel pin in the frame's hammer cutout, very close behind the capped nipples. The hammer's safety notch is deepened accordingly, so the hammer doesn't hit the pin. The pin acts as a barrier to prevent the cap entering the frame cutout, and so the cap cannot jam the cylinder. That fix not only leaves your safety pin system intact so you can carry the piece with six loaded, it works better than the other fixes. I'd probably still replace the nipples with ones having smaller flash holes, but I doubt it would be strictly necessary if you install the pin. That fix emulates the Remington design (though in a different way). Remington has the hammer face, and the corresponding cutout in the frame, smaller than the diameter of the cap, so the spent cap doesn't have so much tendency to enter the hammer cutout in the frame. Remingtons aren't completely immune to the problem, but they're much less prone to it than the typical unmodified Colt.

You will find, in firing caps with nothing in the chambers, that they still bust open and spread out like the petals of a flower. They contain a high explosive that generates a very high, short-lived pressure spike. Just not as much destruction as when there are tens of thousands of pounds per square inch of pressure in the chamber over a longer duration. Thus the smaller flash hole reduces the blowback effects, and after many years and a lot of shooting I have yet to experience any diminished ignition reliability using Tresos.

You may want to try the European caps. They may have a thicker wall, which wouldn't fragment as easily. I don't know, but it's an easy test.

Another way to reduce, but not eliminate, the type of cap jam that has the spent cap binding between the frame and cylinder as the cylinder rotates (depending on the model and manufacture of the gun) would be to enlarge the spent cap channel on the right-hand side of frame's recoil shield, from the hammer channel to the capping cutout. That would take some skill, but I've noticed that some of the original Colts have a larger cutout there compared to some of the repros.

So you can remove the wedge with not but finger pressure, eh? You have an Uberti then? You might want to fix that malady to improve accuracy and to set the cylinder gap to a consistent and repeatable three or four thousandths, but that's a different subject for a different thread, unrelated to that of cap jams. If you use the search function here, you will find plenty of information on the barrel-to-cylinder arbor-to-frame fit and how to make it right. Also Google search "Fine Tuning the Pietta" for an extensive article, which also includes mention of the Uberti Colts and barrel to frame fit. It is presented in several "parts", or web pages, on another site.

[Omnivore]

Oh, and who you callin' a pansy? I have one of those tupperware pistols. You wanna fight about it or what? :-P

[Texantothecore]

Just kidding on the tupperware thingy.

I normally clear out some of the shooters downwind as I have returned to black powder. Quite entertaining at times.



.

[heelerau]

I found with my old Uberti London Navy Colt, new nipples, just standard ones as the you beaut treso nipples won't fit my early 1970 pistol reduced the cap jams, I am using Remington No 11 caps. A the new nipples gas cut, I have noticed the problem returning.

[Texantothecore]

I had not considered gas cutting as an issue with nipples but it makes a lot of sense particularly with the loose fit of nipples.

So I will have to dress the nipples from time to time on the drill press. It would probably be worthwhile to have an extra set of Tresos in the gun case for quick changes in the field. The gun is going to get heavy use by my nephew and niece, their ten children, my son, his wife and my granddaugter so the nipples are going to be worked very hard.

Thanks for the tip on gas cutting. That is a great piece of information.

[Omnivore]

The nipples may not last forever, but they do last a long time. Erosion of the flash hole is definitely an issue on rifles used with heavy charges and heavy bullets, i.e. long range rifles, but we're talking a lot more pressure over a longer duration for each shot there. Some long range rifle shooters use touch hole liners or nipples lines with platinum to reduce errosion (which must be mostly chemical, if platinum is the answer). I suppose we could carefully measure our brand new pistol nipples flash holes and then measure again after some large number of shots, but I don't expect you'd find a problem with the volume of shooting that most C&B shooters do. Certainly not the kind of problem that would warrant keeping an extra set on hand in the field for quick change-outs. After a thousand shots or more, keep an extra set at home and change them out there after you've determined that the holes have enlarged significantly or you're noticing more hammer blow-back or something relevant to the shooting.

Now that I think about it, I do have some new Tresos and some pretty well-used ones. I'll measure them with a small drill set and get back to you on that. This will of course be "assuming* that both sets had the same size holes to begin with.

[retread]

I have different problem. Can not find and caps (#10) to buy. Primers seem to be back but not caps. Anyone know a source?

[Tar Heel]

You didn't specify the brand of revolver but the Pietta and Uberti specify #11 caps if that helps. It's possible your caps are splitting and getting sucked by the hammer. I would try new cones and #11 caps. If that doesn't work out, watch the video omnivore referenced by Mike Beliveau on You Tube where he fills in the notch on the hammer. Mike has some pretty good video out there and another is where he installs slix shot cones. That video is entitled "Equipping 1851 Navy replicas with Slix Shot Nipples".


http://youtu.be/BfTGjm3IDYw

[Omnivore]

Cabela's has Remington 10s for about eight cents;
http://www.cabelas.com/catalog/browse/powder-caps/_/N-1100203/Ns-CATEGORY_SEQ_104511780?WTz_l=SBC%3Bcat104792580%3B cat104701680

I've been using number ten caps on my Piettas and Uberti's with good results. They fit the factory nipples OK, but they fit the Treso nipples perfectly. Haven't used an 11 on a revolver for years, nor do I have to give an extra push on the cap after installing it with a capping tool. Last time out with one of my Treso equipped Piettas I fired up all my ammo, about 80 or 90 rounds, without a single hang fire or misfire. That was all with paper cartridges too (charged with Goex Old Eynsford). Loose powder would be, theoretically at least, easier to ignite. Same with my Uberti '62 Colt and '61 Colt with original nipples, though I've since replaced them with Tresos.

I don't have a Walker-- maybe those really do take number 11 caps, but currently the only use I have for number 11s is with my fifty cal rifle.

[Tar Heel]

Know that there are tolerances in the caps. Try #10 and #11 caps to determine which ones your gun likes best. I have original cones which like 11 caps and aftermarket cones which like #10 caps better. I have different batches of #11 caps, some of which fit perfectly and some of which do not fit well. Play with it and determine which works best for you. Personally, I would invest in the aftermarket cones like Tresco or Slix Shot.

[Petrol & Powder]

The aftermarket nipples such as Tresco are far superior to the Italian factory ones that come on the guns. The steel is much harder. The flash holes and face are held to much tighter standards as well. The factory nipples worked OK on my Remington clone but the aftermarket ones were a game charger. For me, it appeared that the length of the factory cones was not consistent. The caps still spilt with the aftermarket cones but never to point that they would tie up the gun.
I agree that caps are different and it pays find both the correct size and MAKE for your gun. Some just work better than others.

[Petrol & Powder]

I just watched the video that Tar Heel provided. That is an excellent video and right on the money. Thank You.

[Texantothecore]

I have different problem. Can not find and caps (#10) to buy. Primers seem to be back but not caps. Anyone know a source?

My local Basspro has had 10s but no 11 caps for some reason. Which is the reason I am going to be making my own.

I have not seen 10 caps on their shelves before and I spend a good deal of time there.

I picked up a cap maker from MannyCa and it makes perfect cap bodies but I think they will fit an 11 a bit better than a 10 nipple so I am going to bite the bullet and order some Treso #11 nipples and see how they work.
If they get job done I'll get a set for the spare cylinder.

[Texantothecore]

Does anyone know -what vented nipples are for and how they work?I can't figure out what their application is.

[fouronesix]

Does anyone know -what vented nipples are for and how they work?I can't figure out what their application is.

As to the original problem and question, I don't see how they could help prevent cap shrapnel from jamming a C&B revolver.

However, I think the "theory" is that when the cap fires, there is a captured volume of air between the cap and the charge. By venting the nipple with a small hole in the side of the cone, the ignition flame is not so impeded by that captured volume of air so has a faster and/or easier pathway down to the charge. At least that's my understanding of the "theory".

There is somewhat of a parallel theory about venting the flash channel between the nipple and the main charge. While rare it's not unheard of. Some do it but I've never tried it.

I dunno if either of these ideas actually work or have real advantage. I have a few such vented nipples and they seem to work fine, but quantifying the effect would be something else. :)

[JeffG]

When I built a Navy Arms 1860 Army kit in the 90's, the nipples were what I'd call poorly machined and I typically needed to squeeze the Remington #11 caps so they'd stay on the nipple. I ended up getting some Uncle Mikes stainless steel nipples as I recall and Remington #11's were a nice snug fit. After enough rounds, I'd dress the nipples in a drill if they were starting to mushroom at all. No more issues with nipples. I usually turned the revolve on its side so that when I cocked it any cap shrapnel would fall away from the innards.

I have a vented stainless steel nipple on my Hawken but I honestly have no idea if it has impacted anything. The cap sometimes stays on the nipple and sometimes get stuck in the hammer.

[Tar Heel]

The vents on vented cones act to disperse the chamber gas laterally, not in a direct rearward direction blowing the cap off the nipple and into the hammer. When the hammer rebounds after firing, it can either reseat the cap or crush the cap into the nipple where it falls off and into the action when the hammer is subsequently cocked again. The vented cones redirect the gas pressure laterally and reduce the amount of gas on the cap face as well as provide blowout stress on the cap walls. Watch the slowmo video of a percussion revolver firing. You will be AMAZED at the amount of gas vented rearward through the cones. You will NEVER again shoot a percussion revolver without using shooting glasses either.


http://youtu.be/B4MfmTk_-wE

[fouronesix]

I know the notch in the foreword nose rim of percussion hammers is there to direct particles, gas and cap shrapnel away from the shooter. I don't think the small vent hole in nipples, like the T/C Hot Shot, is there for that purpose.

Here's what T/C has to say in their product info about the Hot Shot.

[ofitg]

Here's a close-up photo of some caps which were popped on an unloaded (no powder, no ball) Pietta 1851 with Pietta nipples -

http://i949.photobucket.com/albums/ad336/crawdads/coltcaps002eR_zps48c2a627.jpg (http://s949.photobucket.com/user/crawdads/media/coltcaps002eR_zps48c2a627.jpg.html)

It's easy to see how the rear surfaces of the caps sometimes blow out, and how those little shards of copper could get wedged in the slot on the hammer's forward face (causing the hammer to drag the cap off the nipple when the hammer is cocked). Filling in that slot with J-B Weld could eliminate this part of the problem, but then the hammer wouldn't engage the safety pins located between the nipples.


It's also worth noting that this was an unloaded revolver - the only "chamber pressure" was the pressure created by the caps themselves.

[Texantothecore]

Here's a close-up photo of some caps which were popped on an unloaded (no powder, no ball) Pietta 1851 with Pietta nipples -

http://i949.photobucket.com/albums/ad336/crawdads/coltcaps002eR_zps48c2a627.jpg (http://s949.photobucket.com/user/crawdads/media/coltcaps002eR_zps48c2a627.jpg.html)

It's easy to see how the rear surfaces of the caps sometimes blow out, and how those little shards of copper could get wedged in the slot on the hammer's forward face (causing the hammer to drag the cap off the nipple when the hammer is cocked). 7:Filling in that slot with J-B Weld could eliminate this part of the problem, but then the hammer wouldn't engage the safety pins located between the nipples.


It's also worth noting that this was an unloaded revolver - the only "chamber pressure" was the pressure created by the caps themselves.
The first one on the left looks very familiar but the other two not so much. I have had very few caps show the imprint of the safety notch, most of them rip pretty completely.

I have ordered sets of Tresos (On backorder now) and a set of Slix vented caps to see which type works better. I suspect both will work well.

I looked at a blow up of a Treso and it looks as if the wall of the nipple is much thicker, maybe 4x, than the wall of my current nipple. They are very different and it will be interesting to see how well they work. The thicker walls should be a superior seal and work much better.

[Texantothecore]

I'm also going to take a look at the safety notch of the hammer to make sure it it is not pitted as a pitted notch would definitely grab a cap whereas a very smooh notch would tend to not grab the cap. We will see how that works out. I may have to do some polishing if it looks rough, particularly on the sides of the notch.

[Texantothecore]

The vents on vented cones act to disperse the chamber gas laterally, not in a direct rearward direction blowing the cap off the nipple and into the hammer. When the hammer rebounds after firing, it can either reseat the cap or crush the cap into the nipple where it falls off and into the action when the hammer is subsequently cocked again. The vented cones redirect the gas pressure laterally and reduce the amount of gas on the cap face as well as provide blowout stress on the cap walls. Watch the slowmo video of a percussion revolver firing. You will be AMAZED at the amount of gas vented rearward through the cones. You will NEVER again shoot a percussion revolver without using shooting glasses either.


http://youtu.be/B4MfmTk_-wE

I am definitely going to pay more attention to safety glasses. I sometimes forget them but that is going to be fixed.

Thanks for that enlightening video.

[Texantothecore]

I received my new Slix nipples, installed them and went out to the range to see how they worked. The vents dramatically reduced the pressure on the cap. The caps spread at the skirt rather than ripping and tearing as they had done before. I am quite pleased with the results of the experiment and they should work well with my homemade caps.

[DLCTEX]

Wow! That video answers a question I had when I read of someone using Red Dot in a Ruger Old Army. I do not want to experiment with finding out what the pressure may do to a cap.