45 ACP Rimmed Brass for 1917 S&W

[DonMountain]

I have one of those 1917 S&W revolvers that was purchased by the military way back before WWII, designed to shoot the 45 ACP. I have a bunch of standard brass someone gave me but the problem is I have to use those circular flat plates with the base of the cartridge clipped into them. And they are trouble pulling the fired cases back out of them. So I have thought about purchasing some of those 45 Rimmed brass from Starline (https://www.starlinebrass.com/brass-cases/45-Auto-Rim-Brass/index.cfm)

Does anybody have experience with them? Would you recommend them?

[Love Life]

45 Auto rim brass is what you want. There is specific data for it in the manuals.

[condorjohn]

They make a dandy little tool for removing 45acp brass from the moon clips.
Look for Moon Clip Loading Tool.

[Scharfschuetze]

I use both in my 1917s (Colt & S&W). Either case will work well, but it is a lot easier to use the Auto-Rim cases.

I use a simple de-clipping device to remove the cases from the half-moon and full-moon clips, but load them without any mechanical assistance.

[flylot]

Could someone explain to this old neophyte why loading data would be different between the .45acp and the .45 auto rim: same bullets, I assume case volume is the same, isn't it?

[Le Loup Solitaire]

If you don't have 1/2 moon or 1/3 moon clips and shoot 45ACP you can easily poke the empties out of the cylinder with a short piece of dowel a few inches long. LLS

[Scharfschuetze]

Could someone explain to this old neophyte why loading data would be different between the .45acp and the .45 auto rim: same bullets, I assume case volume is the same, isn't it?

Perhaps the proviso is due to the revolver's lack of modern steel and heat treatment given they were made in 1917 and 1918. Just a guess. In WWI they certainly saw their share of full power ball ammo.


If you don't have 1/2 moon or 1/3 moon clips and shoot 45ACP you can easily poke the empties out of the cylinder with a short piece of dowel a few inches long. LLS

Just did that last month with my pistol cleaning rod when I forgot my clips and only had 45 ACP loads with me.

[Outpost75]

I have US M1917 and .45 Hand Ejector Model of 1950 Military and while either half- or full-moonclipsmake simultaneous ejection possible, UNLIKE the modern 625 revolvers, the older ones will properly headspace on the case mouth and go BANG! without the clip. You canshake the empties out. For rapid fire with repetitious mall ninja reloading get a "de-moner" to eject the empties from your full moon clips.

[RPRNY]

45 auto rim is alive and well, just won't go away. Interesting article on it recently in either Handloader or American Rifleman. Can't remember which.

[Bodydoc447]

I have one of those 1917 S&W revolvers that was purchased by the military way back before WWII, designed to shoot the 45 ACP. I have a bunch of standard brass someone gave me but the problem is I have to use those circular flat plates with the base of the cartridge clipped into them. And they are trouble pulling the fired cases back out of them. So I have thought about purchasing some of those 45 Rimmed brass from Starline (https://www.starlinebrass.com/brass-cases/45-Auto-Rim-Brass/index.cfm)

Does anybody have experience with them? Would you recommend them?

I have used the Starline .45 Auto Rim cases for many years. I can recommend them without any problem at all. I use the same loads in them that I do for ACP in the same revolvers (I am not a redline kind of guy).

Doc

[Jupiter7]

Could someone explain to this old neophyte why loading data would be different between the .45acp and the .45 auto rim: same bullets, I assume case volume is the same, isn't it?
Cycling isn't a requirement in the revolvers. I've seen it both ways, 45AR with higher charges and lower in other manuals.

[35remington]

If you saw the Speer #8 reloading manual you wouldn't say the data was lighter in the Auto Rim. In this manual the loads are way heavier, and use an unusual powder for the task in 2400. The loads listed were well beyond 45 ACP +P. Whether some of the data was truly advisable is open to debate. It is not at all advisable for the 1917.

[Dale53]

Auto rim pressure levels are low because the original factory loads used swaged lead bullets. At the higher pressures of the ACP leading was a problem. Hence, the lower pressure levels.

If you use proper cast bullets (I use WW's+2% tin) that whole dynamic changes.

NOTE: Do NOT exceed .45 ACP levels in the 1917 revolver as they were not heat treated and the cylinders are a bit tender. If I had a 1917 I would simply load 230 gr lead bullets (the Lee 230 gr TC bullet is my favorite for this) at 800-850 fps (using .45 ACP data in a good loading manual). That will NOT hurt the 1917 and yet is a very effective field load with that nice flat meplat. That load should shoot to the sights, too.

FWIW
Dale53

[DonMountain]

I use both in my 1917s (Colt & S&W). Either case will work well, but it is a lot easier to use the Auto-Rim cases.

I use a simple de-clipping device to remove the cases from the half-moon and full-moon clips, but load them without any mechanical assistance.

And where did you get this simple, and probably low cost, de-clipping device?

[Scharfschuetze]

And where did you get this simple, and probably low cost, de-clipping device?

Don,

I bought it at a gun show as if I remember correctly. I've had it possibly 30 years or so, so my memory is a little dim as to its origins. Didn't pay much more than a dollar for it. I've got my money back several times over.

I'll bet those heavy loads in the Speer #8 manual for the 45 Auto-Rim were intended for the S&W Model 25 in 45 ACP/Auto Rim. I saw and shot a few of 'em in the 80s, but only with the available 45 ACP loads.

[StrawHat]

Another device to remove the spent casings from the clips can be made from a hollow tube. I used 1/2"thin wall tubing, long enough to hold 7 rounds. File a notch on the end of the rod to hook on the clip. Slip the tube over the case or cartridge and twist. It pops out easily and is held in the tube.128901128902

And I will also iterate what has been said about the grand Old 1917. It is not the tool for heavy loads. Skeeter Skelton once destroyed a Colt 1917 by using heavy loads. The original ballistics are what made this cartridge great, no real need to "improve" them.

Kevin

[MattOrgan]

What Strawhat beat me to, I used 1/2 of the metal tube from a SKS cleaning kit. You can't see it clearly but the notch is deeper and ground on an angle. Simply pushing down removes the case from the clip. Tough ones can be removed with a slight twist. As far as loading the S&W M1917 I limit my loads to about .44 Special factory pressure levels and lead bullets. Parts are very scarce for these and I treasure my revolver. A 250 gr SWC and 4.0 grains of Bullseye shoots to the sights in my revolver. It's pleasant to shoot and accurate. I prefer Auto Rim brass in my revolver, but it's not the most available brass. So I end up using a lot of 45 ACP in full moon clips. They work so much better than half-moon clips, not bending and causing fit and functioning issues.

[Thumbcocker]

If you use A Dillon 550 you can turn the .45 Colt shell plate upside down and load auto rims.

[DonMountain]

Another device to remove the spent casings from the clips can be made from a hollow tube. I used 1/2"thin wall tubing, long enough to hold 7 rounds. File a notch on the end of the rod to hook on the clip. Slip the tube over the case or cartridge and twist. It pops out easily and is held in the tube.128901128902

Kevin

This looks like something I could do easily for no cost except for a little time in the shop. Did you use a mechanical tubing sized just over the diameter of the 45 ACP casing or did you use common 1/2" electrical conduit?

[Shooter6br]

I hade one from 1/2 copper pipe Works like a charm! Better that store bought.

[Groo]

Groo here
Since no one said I will.
Ranch Products--- on the web--- get the number and call- talk to a REAL person.
Ps The case remover tool Scharf shows cost $3 from them.
When you order moon clips [50 to 100 at a time] have them throw in a couple.

[DonMountain]

This looks like something I could do easily for no cost except for a little time in the shop. Did you use a mechanical tubing sized just over the diameter of the 45 ACP casing or did you use common 1/2" electrical conduit?

Well, I couldn't wait for an answer. So I went out in the shop. Pulled down a short length of 1/2" galvanized electrical conduit. Cut off 8" with a tubing cutter and ground and filed the end to fit the 6-round clip. Slid it on one of the loaded rounds in the clip and gave it a twist and it popped right out! Easy. Only trouble with it was, the loaded round (7.0 grains of Herco, Winchester large pistol primer, 200 grain lead semiwadcutter) slid out the other end of the tube, hit something on the floor and went off. Killing one of my wife's pet chickens that are always around my feet bothering me. So, the problem is, what can I use to cap the end of standard 1/2" electrical conduit to keep the casings from sliding out that end? (I am not an electrician so I don't know what is available to cap electrical conduit to make it easy and non-catching to carry in my pocket.

[Dan Cash]

If you use A Dillon 550 you can turn the .45 Colt shell plate upside down and load auto rims.

Wish I had known that 20 years ago before I bought a .45AR shell plate:groner:

[DonMountain]

If you use A Dillon 550 you can turn the .45 Colt shell plate upside down and load auto rims.

I don't have a .45 Colt. And I don't have a Dillon 550. I use an antique Pacific single stage press and the same shell holder for the 30-06 and 8mm Mauser and 7.62 NATO and 7.64 Belgian Mauser and 7.7 Jap and a bunch more also fits the 45 ACP. My question is, what shell holder fits the 45 ACP Rimmed version that Starline sells?

[Scharfschuetze]

Rcbs #8, Hornady #31, Redding #17.

[GLL]

RCBS #8

Jerry

[DonMountain]

Rcbs #8, Hornady #31, Redding #17.

And of course this is the only one I don't have amongst my 25 others. So, maybe since Starline wants $102 for 500 of them and I doubt that I would ever use that many (I was thinking of getting 200 or 250 of them), and now I have a declipping tool that works really good that cost me just a few minutes in the shop and one chicken, maybe I will just stick to using the 45 ACP cases that I have (maybe 400 of them). Thanks everybody for their help.

[gwpercle]

Back when we was jr. high school boys we shot our father's 1917 with 45 acp ammo, no moon or 1/2 moon clips just used an unsharpened pencil to poke out the empties.
No need for special brass, special clips, special clip loader or special clip unloader.
#2 wood pencil is low tech but cheap and easy to get one.
Gary

[35remington]

Tape seals the end of the tube fine. That is what mine has.

Simple and it works.

[35remington]

The RP demooner is far inferior to the simple tubes shown, which store the cases and deposit them neatly in your hand when the clip is empty.

[DonMountain]

Groo here
Since no one said I will.
Ranch Products--- on the web--- get the number and call- talk to a REAL person.
Ps The case remover tool Scharf shows cost $3 from them.
When you order moon clips [50 to 100 at a time] have them throw in a couple.

I Googled the "Ranch Products" web site and was surprised to not see any product catalog or pictures of their products. Potential buyers need to see pictures and prices to see if they are interesting products.

[Nueces]

Search for them on the Midway site, which has photos.

[StrawHat]

This looks like something I could do easily for no cost except for a little time in the shop. Did you use a mechanical tubing sized just over the diameter of the 45 ACP casing or did you use common 1/2" electrical conduit?

That was made 30+ years ago. I know it was not conduit but exactly what it was I haven't a clue. Whatever was available in the shop on board whatever ship I was working in at the time. It needs to fit over the case but not contact the cases on either side. Mine is cut straight and needs a twist to pop the empty (or loaded) rounds out of the clip.

I have heard that copper pipe will work but it is soft, brass pipe is a bit harder and available in the plumbing supply house.

Kevin

[StrawHat]

Well, I couldn't wait for an answer. So I went out in the shop. Pulled down a short length of 1/2" galvanized electrical conduit. Cut off 8" with a tubing cutter and ground and filed the end to fit the 6-round clip. Slid it on one of the loaded rounds in the clip and gave it a twist and it popped right out! Easy. Only trouble with it was, the loaded round (7.0 grains of Herco, Winchester large pistol primer, 200 grain lead semiwadcutter) slid out the other end of the tube, hit something on the floor and went off. Killing one of my wife's pet chickens that are always around my feet bothering me. So, the problem is, what can I use to cap the end of standard 1/2" electrical conduit to keep the casings from sliding out that end? (I am not an electrician so I don't know what is available to cap electrical conduit to make it easy and non-catching to carry in my pocket.

I use my pinky over the end.

How was the chicken dinner?

Kevin

[justashooter]

Back when we was jr. high school boys we shot our father's 1917 with 45 acp ammo, no moon or 1/2 moon clips just used an unsharpened pencil to poke out the empties.
No need for special brass, special clips, special clip loader or special clip unloader.
#2 wood pencil is low tech but cheap and easy to get one.
Gary

Some S&W 1917 have chamber shoulders, some do not. Most Colt 1917 have chamber shoulders.

[Thin Man]

Let's complicate the topic a bit more. Brownell's sells the Rimz polymer full moon (6 shot) clips, part #100-001-684 that fit both the S&W and Colt 1917 revolvers. These products come in a 5-pack, are really economical, and mine have lasted much longer than I would have expected. Cases slip in and out of the recesses easily with simple finger pressure. Take a look, might be something you can use.

Thin Man

[Scharfschuetze]

You can get the RIMZ full moon clips here also. They are certainly easier to load and unload cases from. I did experience a little drag in my double action pull in the S&W Model 1917 initially with them, but they seem to have smoothed out from use.

[Nueces]

I took those Rimz clips to an any gun cowboy match last year and was frustrated with how difficult it was to insert the loaded clips into my Smith M26 and M625. They had to be rather carefully aligned and pouched tightly into place. Steel moon clips have enough slop to rattle into place easily.

[ditchtiger]

I use my pinky over the end.


You beat me to it. Have always used the pinky.
Made my first conduit de-mooner back in the late 80's.

[kens]

If I use .45acp in my S&W 1917, I factory use taper crimp, and the cases almost fall out of the cylinder.
The taper crimp makes them feed better in a 1911 also.

[tygar]

Get a DeMooner, they are cheap enough. I've had mine for at least 40 yrs. Also have 6-800 45 RP auto rim brass that is new & would be happy to trade if you had something I was looking for.

[StrawHat]

Some S&W 1917 have chamber shoulders, some do not. Most Colt 1917 have chamber shoulders.

I believe you have that backwards, the S&W 1917 always had the chambers cut to hold the cartridge properly and allow them to be fired. The 1/2 moon clips were necessary to eject the cartridges. Some of the early Colt 1917s were bored straight through and required the 1/2 moon clips to fire AND eject the cartridges.

S&W also came out with a full moon clip but it was a complicated device with springs and such. The 1/2 moon was simple and easy to make by the millions so it was adapted for military use.

Kevin

[GCBurner]

I don't have a .45 Colt. And I don't have a Dillon 550. I use an antique Pacific single stage press and the same shell holder for the 30-06 and 8mm Mauser and 7.62 NATO and 7.64 Belgian Mauser and 7.7 Jap and a bunch more also fits the 45 ACP. My question is, what shell holder fits the 45 ACP Rimmed version that Starline sells?

The Lee shellholder list calls for a #13, which seems to be unique to the .45 Auto Rim, or at least, I don't see any other pistol calibre listed that uses it.

[DonMountain]

Get a DeMooner, they are cheap enough. I've had mine for at least 40 yrs. Also have 6-800 45 RP auto rim brass that is new & would be happy to trade if you had something I was looking for.

I might be interested in a trade for some 45 Auto Rim brass. And what are you looking for in brass? How about some new 38 S&W. Back before I was married 25 years ago I bought bags of at least 500 brass for all of my rifles and pistols. And of course since I got married most of it has remained unloaded. She is just now getting to the end of the 100 rounds I had loaded for "her" 356 Winchester 20 years ago.

[DonMountain]

Some S&W 1917 have chamber shoulders, some do not. Most Colt 1917 have chamber shoulders.

Mine has the shoulders and I have shot mine quite a bit without the clips. And used a piece of wood dowel to remove them. But since I tend to shoot targets with my S&W 1917 its easier to shoot 6 and then eject the clip full. The only problem with the clips was removing the empty cases. But now with my new custom made 1/2" steel electrical conduit de-mooner the only problem is the chickens. Old, farm raised Banny chickens are pretty tough eating and don't have much meat on them. Especially after being shredded with a close-fired round.

[tygar]

I might be interested in a trade for some 45 Auto Rim brass. And what are you looking for in brass? How about some new 38 S&W. Back before I was married 25 years ago I bought bags of at least 500 brass for all of my rifles and pistols. And of course since I got married most of it has remained unloaded. She is just now getting to the end of the 100 rounds I had loaded for "her" 356 Winchester 20 years ago.

HI, I primarily need .454 Cassul, .500 S&W, maybe some 45LC new or 1x in pistol. Not much in rifle except LCM 30-06 1x & various new Nosler, oh & I guess .375 Win.

[DonMountain]

HI, I primarily need .454 Cassul, .500 S&W, maybe some 45LC new or 1x in pistol. Not much in rifle except LCM 30-06 1x & various new Nosler, oh & I guess .375 Win.

Wow! With all of those heavy calibers to shoot, what are you doing with 38 S&W brass? I am just the opposite. Most of my stuff is smaller. The only thing I have broaching your big magnums is a 44 Remington Mag. And most of my brass in that is well shot. As for rifles, I don't have any Lake City Match brass for the 30-06. All of mine are old used up 1957 Lake City standard brass. And a few hundred with bullets still in them. They have a funny black painted nose on them and they are in machine gun belt links. And I don't have a .375 Winchester. Just a .307 Winchester and a .356 Winchester. And a bunch of brass for those. My wife uses the .356 Winchester for deer hunting. With old J-bullets I bought and loaded 20 years ago. So, I guess I will have to either continue using my .45 ACP regular brass or buy the 500 from Starline when I get the itch to reload more of them.

[azrednek]

I made a de-mooner out of a pipe strap. Cost me less than 2-bits. I hammered it into shape around an old tire iron then took it to my grinding wheel.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y17/dnisbet/moon-2-1.gif (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/dnisbet/media/moon-2-1.gif.html)

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y17/dnisbet/moon-1.gif (http://s2.photobucket.com/user/dnisbet/media/moon-1.gif.html)

I'll be honest, took me two attempts. I've had good luck using Remington AR brass but haven't seen it for sale in several years. I simply use my fingernails to remove ACP brass from my two 45 revolvers.

I keep my 1917 loads on the mild side, 4.0 grs of Bullseye using lead anywhere from 185-225 grs. There are numerous "friend of mine" tales on the net regarding hot loads in the antique 1917 revolvers. Probably 90% or more aren't factual but no sense in pushing my luck to put holes in paper.