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Dick Dastardly
02-26-2008, 12:21 PM
Ok, I'll ask the dumbest question yet....

Has anyone used a 20 ton wood splitter to swage bullets? I've got the wood splitter standing around doing nothing most of the time and got to thinking about having a die made up that would fit the ram. I have a friend that can do the tooling.

So, I'm looking for experience and insight here.

Thanks,

DD-DLoS

wonderwolf
02-26-2008, 12:41 PM
That sounds like a neat idea. I've heard of guys using log splitters to size and load 20mm with. 20 tons is a lot to work with......

garandsrus
02-26-2008, 01:46 PM
Dick,

It would probably make a great press to extrude lead wire for swaging...

John

Buckshot
02-27-2008, 04:17 AM
...............Lottsa potential and you'd better have damn good dies :-) I used a 2 ton bottle jack to fully form 58 caliber Minie' boolits. That was pure lead though. A 6 ton jack had lead extruding back past the base plunger in pieces almost thin enough to read the newspaper through!

................Buckshot

Dick Dastardly
02-27-2008, 06:17 PM
I'd have a solid stop built into the die set. The only reason for using the wood splitter is that I have one. Usually it is sitting around doing nothing. I have a Honda motor on it rated at 5.5hp. I'm thinking that I may have several dies made for it. One would swage rough slugs and the other would swage finished bullets.

I'd use 20:1 alloy.

DD-DLoS

Bret4207
02-28-2008, 09:00 AM
OOOOOO!!!!! My 27 ton splitter would (wood?) work too. Dang you guys, ya got me thinking thoughts again!

georgeld
02-29-2008, 01:06 AM
Does it have a spring loaded/or powered return?
Otherwise it'd be mighty slow to make 'em with.

IF you do have dies made for this set up. Get the guy to make them
from at least two inch dia. round stock of good tool steel. Other wise
you'll be taking a chance on busting the dies them selves.

And make sure there's a stroke stop so it can't possibly go past a certain setting
and keep pressing.

Good luck, that would be interesting to see working, or at least still pics at each step.

Red River Rick
02-29-2008, 10:58 PM
Dick:

That 20 ton wood splitter could also extrude lead wire. My Corbin Hydro Press puts out 10 tons which is more than adequite for this job. In your case, with the additional 10 tons, lots of stroke and a custom set of extrusion dies, you could make some nice long lengths of lead wire. Probably long enough to roll and perhaps retail.

The length of the finished wire would all depend on the size of the lead slug being extruded. Which would be dictated by the size of the custom extruding die.

RRR

mstarling
03-01-2008, 12:19 AM
Hmmm ... some years ago I built a 30 ton hydraulic press for working damascus billets. Is energized by a 5 hp 220v motor driving a hydraulic pump. Weighs some 1400 pounds.

http://216.122.235.44/Album/press.jpg

I'll bet I could make plates to hold dies and punches. Will have to think about this one a while. This may be a little like using a .458 Win Mag on rabbits.

A note for those who have not used hydraulic or pressure systems ... beware of "stored energy" accidents. When you put huge amounts of pressure on something and then it is suddenly released (as in when something breaks) ... all hell breaks loose. If you're in the way of flying parts you can be seriously hurt!

georgeld
03-02-2008, 04:44 AM
THAT'S where a pressure gauge come's in handy!!

Three44s
03-03-2008, 02:13 AM
I would be looking at adjusting the pressure bypass down to just what was needed ..... so if things get balky ..... you don't just lean harder on the lever ..... you look for the reason things have some how changed.

Three 44s

montana_charlie
03-03-2008, 12:31 PM
I've been using a 30-ton H-frame shop press to develop the parts for stretching (re-drawing) cases that are a bit too short.
It works fine, even though it is a big, clunky, press that takes a long time to retract.

The die I was (am) using is made in a way that IT guarantees accuracy...even if the pressing tool is wobbly.

But, I got fed up with two things...
- Drawing a case on the press out in the shop...then carrying that case (with the punch stuck in it) into the den to jerk the punch out with my reloading press.
- Drawing cases in a very cold shop.

So, in order to have a 'portable press' that can be used in the warm den right beside my reloading press...I have been supplied with a frame (that we call a 'jig') that holds my die arrangement (which we call the fixture) and the push is provided by a four-ton Porto Power.

The earlier poster, who mentioned that his Corbin has a 10-ton capacity, is the same individual who built this 'jig'. It might also be interesting to note that Porto Power equipment is available in 10-ton capacity.

Does this provide any potential swagers with a new thought?

CM

DLCTEX
03-03-2008, 06:33 PM
I have an electric/hydraulic system with 30" stroke that I salvaged from a lift system that lifted patients in and out of a bath in a nursing home I was doing some remodeling in. I had been thinking of using it for swaging for some time. I will be buying a lathe in the future to make the dies. You guys are spurring thoughts and ideas galore, I may have to move the time schedule up for the lathe purchase. I wanted to get some debt retired first, but I may have to take on extra work and get it done. Keep the information flowing. I can buy a small used lathe cheaper than Corbins die sets. Dale

georgeld
03-04-2008, 02:41 AM
I'd like to understand how you'd feed hunks of lead to produce wire.
I've got tons of 1lb ingots.
Anyone have something constructive we could learn about?

They only "wire drawing" I've ever seen was steel wire, rolled smaller from stock
at the wire mill.
Thanks,

Linstrum
03-04-2008, 04:16 AM
I used my guillotine frame log splitter for drawing jackets for big bore stuff, I also used my Caterpillar D4D dozer to provide both the power and motion to draw jackets from 20 foot lenghths of copper plumbing tubing even faster than my 31-inch stroke log splitter. Both work great.

For extruding lead, think of extruding Play-Dough. The machines for extruding lead have a cylinder that the lead billet is placed in sort of like a giant cake decorator press. Lead for extruding has to be fairly pure, if a lot of antimony or other alloying stuff is in it, it is hard and won't extrude without needing a lot more pressure. Highly alloyed stuff also causes problems from being brittle and tends to be split up and crumbly coming out of the extrusion die.

Interesting thing about lead and tin alloys, they do not possess enough tensile strength to be drawn through wire sizing dies and that is the reason why they are extruded instead of being drawn. A long time ago when I was in the jewelry finding business I tried pulling solder wire through my wire drawing mill and it just pulled the solder in two! Some lead-free tin alloys draw okay but are far, far too expensive to use for boolits except for special hunting applications where only one or two shots are needed.

It was a lot of fun messing around with the log splitter and dozer as boolit making tooling. I have a fairly complete machine shop with an old U.S. Burke Mill Rite Bridgeport-style milling machine and a recently purchased Jet 13x40 lathe to make all of my own drawing and extruding dies. I used AISI 1045 steel salvaged from water well pump drive shafting, all water well pump shafting is made from that alloy by industry standard mandate. Oil or water quenched it is great stuff.

georgeld
03-07-2008, 04:30 AM
Linstrom:
You got any pictures of this? OR sketch's on how it works maybe?

Where's Otero Cnty NM??? I'm in Pueblo, there's times I like taking a drive.
Thank you sir, I just can't seem to grasp how large hunks can be run thru
die hole's that small.

Play dough you mention needs to be rolled around to reduce it.
Shall be awaiting better explantions.

Linstrum
03-07-2008, 07:25 AM
Hi, Georgeld,

Nope, no pictures available, when I moved operations from Kalifornia over to here, all that stuff disappeared who knows where.

Play-Dough makes a toy press for extruding the dough into long strings the same way spaghetti is made and if you saw one work you'd catch on how lead is extruded. When I was a real little kid helping my mom in the kitchen I saw how things are extruded when she made cookies in a cookie dough press and decorated cakes with flowers and writing in frosting. Remember you can nick pure lead with your thumb nail, so it is pretty darned soft and easy to extrude. If you push on most stuff hard enough it can be extruded, copper plumbing pipe is extruded, most aluminum shapes are made that way, even some steel items are extruded now. Aluminum beverage cans are extruded and now the steel tin cans for soup and tuna are made the same way. Steel cans are extruded red hot (in an innert nitrogen atmosphere so the iron doesn't oxidize and form scale) to prevent cold work hardning that is a property of iron and a great many other metals. Brass, steel, and aluminum cartridges are all made by both extrusion and drawing operations, both are needed to form them rapidly in a mass production operation. Actually, the operations of drawing and extrusion are closely related down at the point where the metal is being worked and flowing.

There are only a few technical books available on extrusion methods used in industry, it was originally a British development back in the 1840s, 160-some years ago. Inexpensive lead and tin pipe for household plumbing was made by extrusion until it was replaced by inexpensive rolled and hot-dipped galvanized iron plumbing pipe around 115 years ago in the 1890s. The images on our coins are even extruded, coined surfaces are a form of low-profile surface extrusion.

Otero County, New Mexico is where White Sands National Monument is located, up about 80 miles north of El Paso, Texas. That would be a long drive from Pueblo, Colorado. We have some outstanding oryx hunting here. See:
http://www.nps.gov/archive/whsa/Animal%20List/oryx.htm
and
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Sands_National_Monument

Oryx hunting tags are obtained by special lottery.

KTN
03-07-2008, 11:05 AM
This is my extruder.12 ton bottle jack,o-frame and homemade die that extrudes 0.75"x3" lead cylinder to about 4 feet of 0.18" wire.
Just remember to lube your lead before extruding it.Shortly after taking this picture I forget it and base plunger stuck tight.


Kaj

teddyblu
03-07-2008, 11:23 AM
Need help on the extruder die design.

Where is the extruder hole placed in the die design, side, bottom ????

I have a 50 ton hyd press and equipment to make the die, just need design.

thanks Larriy

DLCTEX
03-07-2008, 12:19 PM
Just picture a syringe , an extruder works on same principle. DALE

Gussy
03-07-2008, 12:34 PM
I have an electric/hydraulic swage press for crimping hose end fittings. It has a fairly short stroke and should make a great bullet swage press. I put a foot switch control on it. One of these days (retirement is just around the corner) I'll have time to make dies!! A few other projects are ahead of it, but, the list is getting shorter!

Linstrum
03-07-2008, 01:04 PM
KTN, do you use your 0.180 wire for making .177 cal air rifle ammo?

Years ago I thought about doing that for my old 1932 Benjamin air pistol.

KTN
03-09-2008, 04:41 AM
I use the wire as cores to .22RF jacketed bullets.
Now that I got started in bullet swaging,I'm thinking about trying to make my own swaging dies for .45 cal paper patched boolit.


Kaj

georgeld
03-10-2008, 02:49 AM
Kaj:
Those pics. Ok, is that center rod sticking out the top your lead wire??

Those 1"x3-4"??? stubs on each side of the ram. Are those what you're
pushing thru to make the wire??

IF so, hell yeah, I can make those up. Where did you come by your extrusion die?? How long is the taper leading to the hole?

What I have are 1lb ingots, but, do have a couple of ton of them. maybe 1000# is
soft stuff and I can get more soft lead easy enough. Know a guy that has tons of plumbing scrap.

NM:
Ok, thanks for the info. Yep, close to 600 miles from here. Been that rt many a time. But, not for yrs.

KTN
03-15-2008, 03:32 PM
georgeld,
sorry it took so long to answer,been on the road whole week.Here's a better picture of my extruder.
Yes,those 0.75"x3" cylinders are what I extrude to wire.Extrusion die is home made and taper is regular drill bit nose taper,same as on that lead cylinder.


Kaj

Buckshot
03-16-2008, 12:41 AM
..............georgeld, it's no big deal to extrude lead.

http://www.fototime.com/68ED616D2184128/standard.jpg

These lead extrusions were done in a RCE Walnut Hill press when bleeding cores. Let me hastily add that this was early on in my swaging career, and bleeding off this much lead in merely bringing cores to weight is too much extruding. However as an example for what may be done by hand operated press, let alone a multi-ton hydraulic press should give you an idea of the simplicity.

...............Buckshot

georgeld
03-16-2008, 03:08 AM
Looks great. I'd like to see closer detailed pictures of the dies.

maybe a drawing, some size's would help too.
Might be I'm figuring to go much heavier than is needed. But, I have that habit. But, seldom anything I build breaks. When it does, there's always a reason for it. but, nearly never because I didn't build it strong enough, or put enough weld on. Dad always said: "you use too many nails".

Buck, I'd like to see the face of your setup, up close. Ok? IF it's too big a deal, you could send by e'mail. That way I could print it out too. Have several notebooks of these kind of things.

Retirement close, and list getting shorter?? Don't fool yourself man!! It'll never happen!
You've got more free time and money now than you'll have once you retire.
Two things that are NOT in the cards: "getting caught up, or getting ahead".

Count on it. Wish you the best though. Thanks for the great info and pics from everyone.
Those short wires would pose no problem in home production.

Buckshot
03-17-2008, 02:36 AM
http://www.fototime.com/AAF78FD5871D099/standard.jpg

...........georgeld, this is a picture of the core bleed die. You can see the bleed hole just a bit more then half way up, left of center. The plunger is on the right. Best I can measure the clearance is .0003" or maybe a bit less. If you cover the ejector hole in the bottom and the bleed hole with your fingers, the plunger will slowly fall due to it's own weight. If you put some light oil on the plunger it will pretty much just sit there.

1) The larger the extruder hole, the easier it is to extrude.
2) The more pressure you use, the closer your fit has to be
3) Surprizingly little pressure is required (comparatively).

Many years back I built a very simple swage die to reform 58 cal Minie' bullets, into a kind of SWC shape below:

http://www.fototime.com/820D61686DA0E42/standard.jpg

The 3 die parts is the nose forming stem, on the left behind the Minie' bullets. The body in the middle and the base forming plunger lying on the right. It was made out of common low carbon cold finished 1018 steel. This is case hardenable but not through hardenable, but didn't receive any treatment at all.

It was first used with a hammer. The body sits over the base (nose forming stem) and you drop a doner Minie' into the die. Insert the base forming plunger and bang on it until it comes up solid. Worked like a champ, but pretty cave man stuff. I built a bench hydraulic press which had a 6 ton bottle jack for pursuasion.

While I wasn't extruding lead it proves a fact. The 6 ton jack would supply sufficient force and with little feeling in it's operation that you could easily extrude lead back up past the base forming plunger. This in effect tied the unit up until the lead could be melted and the plunger removed. Had I been extruding lead wire and the hole had been of sufficient size it probably would have been fine.

However, what I did was to substitute a 2 ton bottle jack. This was enough to fully form the lead Minie' and it became inoperable (by hand) at that point. Best yet, it did not extrude lead back past the plunger.

.................Buckshot

Southern Son
03-17-2008, 08:55 AM
Buckshot,
I have been a member of the Cast Boolit forum for only a short time, I have however been reading posts on this forum for quite some time. I have come to 3 conclusions.
1. I have to buy a lathe (seriously, I am going nuts looking at all the stuff you can make on one and being a BPCR shooter, the things made on that lathe would be so useful),
2. You are a genius,
3. Someone needs to gather all your posts on this forum and make it into a Web Book (more a Web Training Manual for making stuff handy for shooting). Down Under there are very few people who do any swaging, I have only met a couple and one of those is a full time gunsmith. Because there are so few people doing it, information is thin on the ground. Most of the information on the Web seems to be aimed at those who have a little bit of a grounding in swaging. Your postings are plain, accurate and straight to the point, explaining what needs to be done and how to do it in simple terms that people like me can understand. As I said earlier, I have been reading this forum for some time and everything I know about swaging (so little that it is) I have learned from this forum and many of it's members (Mighty Thor, KTN and some others I can't think of right now), but most of what I have learned I have learned from your postings. I know I am not the first person to say this to you, and I also know that I am not the first person to suggest your postings be gathered into one place in some type of book. I am not trying to kiss ar$e, but I am trying to let you know (and the other posters like Mighty Thor and KTN), that the extra effort you put in to your postings with photographs and clear explanations is very much appriciated by gumbys like me. Please keep them comming, someday I will get a lathe (have to get a shed first), and then what I have learned from you guys will be even more appriciated.

floodgate
03-17-2008, 01:13 PM
Southern Son:

I couldn't agree more, and have suggested the same. Buckshot's opus would go on the shelf right next to my cherished volumes of Guy Lautard's "Machinst's Bedside Reader". How 'bout it, Rick?

Nueces
03-17-2008, 08:16 PM
I agree with both the above. Rick, it's pretty rare to be talented in the shop and with words (and photos). I'd sure like a compendium.

Mark

georgeld
03-18-2008, 12:32 AM
Buck:
Great pics and explanations. I agree with the last comments fully.
Do appreciate the postings. Esp with pics now.

I have several feet of 1 1/2" bore drill stem. Been thinking it'd make one hell of a cannon barrel. But, now that I see these things. Just might polish out a couple feet of it and use the long ram of my cherry picker with a perfect fitting rammer on top. Could swage out a mile of wire with one stroke. haha! nah, doubt it. But, sure would be feasible, right?

Another question. I see you've made many shorts, IF several loose pieces of lead were stuffed in the die. Would they join into one wire as it fed out?

Bleeding past the ram would lock things up sure would, but, getting a nice tight fit would eliminate that problem. OR should it seems. So would a return spring on the ram. Wouldn't be much trick to hook up a flat bar with a hole that fits the ram screw on the jack. Long enough on each end to hook a coil spring between it and the jacks base. Then the return would just need to open the bleeder screw on the jack.

Had personal problems today, Dad's car was stolen. So didn't get over to pick up the steel. Plus it snowed again last night too. Am getting cabin fever bad.

I have about completed a shooting seat/table affair for p'doggin. A little cleaning up and painting and should be ready to try. Wish I could take pics. but, that "date" I brought over in Dec stole my camera.

Everyone needs a lathe and mill, welder, nice big shop, extra money, and couple honeys on the side too. Right?
Junker harbor/freight combo I have is better than nothing. But, I'd sure not recommend any of you guys go buy one. I ran a lathe in the shop way back in the mid 60's and got pretty hot stuff with it until ulcers developed from the tight tolerance's all the time. THen the plant shut down. Never could find another machinist job. Ended up driving a trk and then welding. Lack of income and wife's cooperation is a lot of why I've never gotten machinery. Am gaining on it now that's she's gone. Am hoping to get a decent 10x40" lathe one of these days. Could IF I'd stop blowing it all on more guns. Priority problems!!


KTN: post #25 shows a rolled spool of wire, but, your slugs are short.
Do they press/join together to make a continous wire? OR is there a break each slug?
Thanks much, all of you.

Buckshot
03-18-2008, 03:34 AM
...............Well I certainly do thank you all for the nice words. I'm humbled. It seems that a lot of people who are machinists (in the true definition of the word) are gun people, in the fullest definition of that :-). And also gun people can have a tendancy to be interested in machinery, let alone machining. After all a firearm is a piece of precision machinery, and holds a bit of fascination that way. It is after all, a heat engine.

I believe that anyone who enjoys working with their hands should get a lathe. However, it must be remembered that buying a lathe is like buying a horse. All the REAL expense comes afterwords, and it IS possible to buy precision. So look out because precision isn't cheap! It can also become an illness (but everyone here knows of which I speak):bigsmyl2:

As an example I had the money saved up to buy a 9x42 vertical mill. But I did not have the floorspace due to other flotsam and jetsam occupying the square foottage. Yet that did not stop me from buying $2400 worth of milling machine accesories. [smilie=l: That was almost a year ago and I still don't have the mill.

.............georgeld, "Another question. I see you've made many shorts, IF several loose pieces of lead were stuffed in the die. Would they join into one wire as it fed out?"

Yes they would if they were clean and largely unoxidized. Otherwise oil, dirt and surface oxides would inhibit it.

..................Buckshot

toecutter
03-18-2008, 04:01 AM
I have some experience with this... We use a 40 ton cold header press at work to smash lead into bullets. We make a wide variety of them, in my experience while 20 tons is more than enough, the slow cycle of the hydraulic press will get boring really quick unless you are doing really big bullets that just arn't practical to do any other way. I think the lead-wire extrusion stuff a number of people were talking about is probably a better use for your spare log splitter.

Southern Son
03-18-2008, 05:17 AM
KTN,
Mate, in your above post you have your photo of your lead extruding rig. You say the taper on the inside of the die is just regular drill bit nose taper, the head of the plunger looks flat, is it? Also, I am guessing that you made the chamber the lead is extruded out of simply by drilling out the die with about a .750 inch drill bit and then polishing. Is that correct?

I think that you said somewhere that you use the wire for swaging into jackets to make bullets (if you didn't I'm sorry, I have it mixed up). If so, what size do you recommend swaging the lead wire to in relation to the bullet? I am just wondering because I am wanting to swage bullets (eventually) to paper patch in my 45/70. Because I am using black powder, I have been thinking that the bullet should be around the .440-.441 mark to patch up to .448-.449. If I do make the bullet at say.440, would it make any sense to swage the lead wire to .430-.435 to minimize the sizing? I am thinking that it would require less force to swage out a thick piece of wire to begin with, and then only having to swage up .010 may also make it quicker/easier. Am I right, or am I truly a lost cause?

Ron.

P.S. Georgeld, SNOWED THERE LAST NIGHT. I have been driving for the last 2 days and my right arm and the right side of my face is really badly sunburnt. I would swap snow for this blistering heat we have had here for the last week, in a heart beat.

KTN
03-18-2008, 01:30 PM
georgeld,
yes,slugs join in to continous wire when extrudet,even when lubed.

southern son,
you guessed right.Extruding die is made by drilling 0.18" hole thru and opening up with 0.750" drill bit and polishing to tight fit with base plunger (VW Golf shock absorber rod,hardened and chrome plated.)
Wire diameter is such that cores drop into jackets freely,even after corecutter flattens the end a bit.
With my short experience on bullet swaging,I don't think wire or core diameter is important,as long as it fits in to jacket or swaging die without problems (both diameter and lenght).
With bigger boolits it could be easier to make core mold to cast cores,like Buckshot did.


Kaj

georgeld
03-19-2008, 01:47 AM
KLN/Buck:

Haven't looked yet, but, in the tool n die dept in the 60's, they used a good many drill bushings. Most were pressed in, but, some were threaded in.

Been thinking, with a set of bushings the same threaded OD, and proper sized bores.
Then all that would have to be changed is the bushing/s.

Last one I bought was for a 9" dia lead pot modeled on the Lee Pro Pot. Pics of it are on the CB/melting tools somewhere, about a yr ago maybe. "George's melter" I think it's titled.

Anyway, I made a 3/4"x8" stainless pin that wouldn't seal a hole in the bottom. So bought the bushing and that solved the problem for about $14!! Then not long after, I loaned the equipt to a buddy and gave him 15 buckets to melt. It came back without the bushing!!
Next one, I welded in place, still haven't used the pot again since. Whether it seals right this time or not, I don't know yet. That's gotta be checked thsi summer, as I still have about 15 buckets of range scrap. Two buckets per hour working alone produces about 105-25lbs per bucket. Larry melted 1200 ingots and 7 gallons of jackets in 8 hours busting ass alone. 20 yrs younger than me, and without back problems too. Makes a difference.

Good to know those slugs will join together. Expect that works better if you don't bottom out the ram, right? OR is the bottom tapered with a flat ram?

Didn't get over after the steel again today.
What OD is the socket die on that extruder?

Have you guys tried extruding harder lead yet? Will/does it work with these big powered jacks? OR is it too much pressure?

I've got maybe three ton of range lead in ingots already for casting. Since seeing these. Believe I'll bore out some slug type molds and pour those the right shape and size once I get started on it.

S/Son: BTDT that too. Drove the long haul over ten yrs. SO I know about brown arm and one side of the face, light colored on the other side. I also learned a few yrs later what can become of such 'tanning". Had a bunch of skin cancer's cut, and frozen off the left side of my face the last 20yrs. Be good advice to keep your hide covered with "lube", maybe you could prevent some of what I've gone thru.
Wish you well,

Jim_Fleming
05-05-2009, 06:19 AM
My questions are about removing the plunger from the die body after extrusion has been completed.

They're simple:

How is it done, and how did y'all attach the plunger to the removal mechanism?

I hope y'all don't mind me jumping onto this thread even after it's a bit dated? Daggone it I'm excited to see this info!

Jim

deltaenterprizes
05-05-2009, 10:40 AM
I just unscrew the threaded bushing that holds the orifice and push it thru!

Linstrum
05-05-2009, 02:08 PM
I can see with a hydraulic bottle jack that it would be a problem unless you can do like deltaenterprizes says and unscrew the nozzle and push it on through.

When i had my press I just hit the reverse flow valve for the double-acting cylinder and it pulled the extrusion ram back out no problem.

Jim_Fleming
05-05-2009, 10:14 PM
I was doing this for a while, until I literally pulled the threads right out of the plunger itself... (3/8-16) fairly substantial threads, (IMO)

If you don't mind, How exactly did you have your plunger attached to the Ram of the Press?

Jim





When i had my press I just hit the reverse flow valve for the double-acting cylinder and it pulled the extrusion ram back out no problem.

Jim_Fleming
05-05-2009, 10:25 PM
So, as I understand it, if you had a 1.000" plunger, you'd have to have at least a 1.250 Diameter threaded bushing, correct? This is so that the minor diameter of the tapped hole in your die body would clear the 1.000" plunger, correct?

Using the same logic, if I were to build another one, with a .750 plunger (for example) I'd have to have a 1.000" diameter threaded bushing, etc... Correct?

I don't have my tap and die charts and sizes right here at my fingertips, but I hope that I've gotten my point across? It's conceiveable that I might get away with 7/8-14 NF thread or whatever, just as long as the plunger clears the minor diameter of the threaded hole.

Jim



I just unscrew the threaded bushing that holds the orifice and push it thru!

Jim_Fleming
05-05-2009, 10:45 PM
By using this sort of interchangeable threaded bushing, one could set up a whole series of diameters of lead wire extrusions...

At least that's the way I understand it...

Jim



So, as I understand it, if you had a 1.000" plunger, you'd have to have at least a 1.250 Diameter threaded bushing, correct? This is so that the minor diameter of the tapped hole in your die body would clear the 1.000" plunger, correct?

Using the same logic, if I were to build another one, with a .750 plunger (for example) I'd have to have a 1.000" diameter threaded bushing, etc... Correct?

I don't have my tap and die charts and sizes right here at my fingertips, but I hope that I've gotten my point across? It's conceiveable that I might get away with 7/8-14 NF thread or whatever, just as long as the plunger clears the minor diameter of the threaded hole.

Jim

deltaenterprizes
05-06-2009, 10:12 AM
I have a 1'' bore with a 1 1/2 Acme threaded bushing to retain the orifices. V threads bind under pressure.

Jim_Fleming
05-06-2009, 10:38 PM
:)

Thanks again... The problem of the fiendish stress on the 60 degree V form threads was niggling at me, but you've cleared that up. Great Job!

Now I have to get some tool bits ground down and start working on making a set of threaded plugs and internal threads in my die body.

Next question: The orifice... How did you handle that?

Also do you have pix of these things and could a newcomer like me impose on you to post them...?

Thanks a million Sir! :drinks:

Jim



I have a 1'' bore with a 1 1/2 Acme threaded bushing to retain the orifices. V threads bind under pressure.

Linstrum
05-07-2009, 10:48 AM
I used the precision ground hard chrome plated 1.5" diameter ram shaft of the hydraulic cylinder as the extrusion piston in my lead extrusion cylinder. That way no threaded parts between the extrusion aparatus piston and hydraulic cylinder ram shaft were required. I simply removed the locking nut and unscrewed the original factory ram shaft from the piston in my hydraulic cylinder and replaced it with a length of hard chrome plated ram shaft I bought extra for the job by copying the original 1.5"-10 threads on the original ram shaft to fit the hydraulic cylinder piston. No big deal with my lathe, except it requires a tungsten carbide tool bit to break through the hard chrome plating before threading the piston end. I used a regular inexpensive 60° triangular carbide insert to do the majority of the threading job and for the final few cuts I replaced it with a special rather expensive 60° carbide threading insert. The other end of the chrome plated shaft that went into the lead extrusion cylinder I just machined-off square, some guys machine the end at the mating angle inside the extrusion nozzle.

Since it failed, I would not consider the 3/8-16 NC adequate for the particular application where it was applied. If a 60° thread fails it is because of poor engineering in choosing the type steel that was used for the application, a too small diameter of the threaded body, wrong thread pitch, or too short length of thread engagement to do the job. Regular 60° triangular threads are plenty strong to take the enormous forces generated by a hydraulic cylinder since that is the type of thread chosen to fasten the piston to the ram, and the ram to the pin yoke in every hydraulic cylinder I have ever seen as well as taken apart. I also used a regular 60° triangular thread at the nozzle end of my extrusion aparatus body without any failure whatsoever. Acme and buttress threads are usually used for three types of applications: First where the threaded parts must continuously rotate under pressure and must also act as both a plain bearing and thrust bearing, and is why they are used in vises, C-clamps, lead screws in lathes and milling machines, etc. Second, Acme and its related buttress threads are usually used for applications where there is a very great radial force applied outward, such as in gun barrels where part of the barrel breach is screwed into the receiver and the cartridge firing pressure is partly transferred from the breach to the receiver ring. Third, where great longevity is required for many tightening and loosening cycles, such as the breach plugs in large cannons; also, a gun's bolt-action locking lugs may be considered a threaded part, most are in fact pretty close to a giant interrupted Acme thread. Where the threaded parts do not rotate under pressure, the 60° (or 55° Whitworth) threads are entirely adequate to take everything a bolt will handle. I have never had any trouble with the head or bearing cap bolts used in an engine disintegrating and I'll guarantee you those are highly stressed parts. So don't worry about using triangular-profile threads for high stress applications where they don't move or have to be repeatedly engaged and disengaged over thousands of cycles, they can handle it no problem. However, there is one particular application I know of where 60° triangular threads are inadequate but still used anyway, which is for wheel lug bolts/nuts.

By the way, in case you have never noticed before, the coarse threads of one size bolt are the fine thread size for the bolt that is twice the diameter of the coarse threaded bolt: For example, the National Coarse thread for 1/4" is 20 tpi and the National Fine threads for a 1/2" is also 20 tpi. The one departure from this is the 1" thread where the National Fine of a 1" bolt is 12 tpi, not the 13 tpi of the National Coarse thread used for a 1/2" bolt. Until about 100 years ago, though, the 1/2"-12 thread was most commonly used in the United States and is still used in Great Britain for their British Coarse Thread series. In my tools I do have a U.S. 1/2"-12 tap and die made by Cardinal that are about 100 years old.


rl538

Jim_Fleming
05-07-2009, 09:47 PM
Hello Gents and Thanks for the excellent thread!

To clarify a point I stated earlier in the thread...

In the 1.000 dia. extrusion punch...

I placed the whole assembly in the 30 ton press I had access too. I pressed directly on the top of the extrusion punch.

I had tapped the top of the punch with a 3/8 - 16 hole.

After extruding the lead in the die body, I put a 3/8-16 SHCS thru a piece of 1/2 x 1 1/4 x 4" bar stock. The bar stock had two holes in it that I tapped 1/2-13 thread.

Tightened the SHCS nice and tight, then jacked the punch out of the die body with two pieces of 1/2 all thread that I had welded 1/2-13 nuts onto the top of the all thread. Sort of on the order of a gear puller, except with long legs of 1/2 all thread.

Everything worked well except that eventually I pulled the threads out of the extrusion punch.

Here's a quick sketch I made of my old punch:

I hope this clears up the confusion I created.

I am amazed by the wonderful knowledge that's here on the Board, you Gents are Great! Generous with your knowledge too!

Thanks again!

JimKirk
05-09-2009, 10:27 PM
Any of you guys thought about applying heat as is done with aluminum extrusion. My Dad worked in a plant that extruded aluminum logs 30'-40' long x 8" into many pieces. I've watched 25 or more spaghetti like strands coming out at one time. The logs are heated to almost melt point(just below) and two 300 hp hydro pumps do the play-do thing on the logs. I sure it would be much easier to apply that setup to lead.

Jimmy K

JohnM
05-10-2009, 05:43 AM
The extruded aluminum I've seen, mostly angle and aluminum door extrusions are all cold moulded.

A little bit of heat on the die does help starting swaging easier. Once started no heat is needed as the heat generated is more than enough for swaging lead wire

John

shooterg
05-10-2009, 01:59 PM
I've read that if you cast the ingot just before extrusion things will go faster with the warm ingot.

JohnM
05-10-2009, 08:44 PM
Be very similar shooterg, when we’ve heated the die it’s only a little hotter than you can touch. Not red hot or to the point the lead is melted.

Pushing though cold lead takes a lot of pressure, but a little heat and it’s much easier with the same quality wire.

John

JimKirk
05-22-2009, 11:14 PM
John,
I'm sure it is possible to extrude AL cold, what I was saying is it could be much easier if it were heated to near melting or just below. I sure that if the plant near me could "get by with a little heat" they would, so there has to be a reason.

Jimmy K.

deltaenterprizes
05-23-2009, 08:24 AM
Acme and its related buttress threads are usually used for applications where there is a very great radial force applied outward, such as in gun barrels where part of the barrel breach is screwed into the receiver and the cartridge firing pressure is partly transferred from the breach to the receiver ring. Third, where great longevity is required for many tightening and loosening cycles, such as the breach plugs in large cannons; also, a gun's bolt-action locking lugs may be considered a threaded part, most are in fact pretty close to a giant interrupted Acme thread. Where the threaded parts do not rotate under pressure, the 60° (or 55° Whitworth) threads are entirely adequate to take everything a bolt will handle. I have never had any trouble with the head or bearing cap bolts used in an engine disintegrating and I'll guarantee you those are highly stressed parts. So don't worry about using triangular-profile threads for high stress applications where they don't move or have to be repeatedly engaged and disengaged over thousands of cycles, they can handle it no problem.


rl538[/QUOTE]

I do plan to tighten and loosen over thousands of cycles that is why I built the die, not to make one length of wire.
This is my second die, the first one had V threads and was a pain to loosen the plug to remove the plunger, the Acme threads work much better.

barryjyoung
06-02-2012, 02:59 PM
I just started building a modified version of KTN's press. The one I am building will look identical to the press KTN built except for four main differences.

1. The press will be powered by a 20 ton air over hydraulic (compressed air powered) bottle jack I bought from Harbor Freight for this purpose about two years ago. You can see it herehttp://www.harborfreight.com/20-ton-air-over-hydraulic-jack-95553.html

2. The die will be an inverted type as described on pages 126-128 of the 1960 NRA Illustrated Reloading Handbook which you can find online here at cast boolits at
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=34755&page=2

3. I will heat my die with a propane torch in addition to extruding immediately after casting the ingot in the die itself

4. I will use 1 x 6 cast in place ingots rather than 3/4 x 3 ingots KTN is using because A. I am using a larger bottle jack and B. because I am too lazy to add ingots any more often than I have to.

I will post some pictures as the build progresses. At this point I have the vertical channels welded to the base channel (I used a wider base channel than KTN's awesome design because I used a wider jack and wanted to be able to bolt the jack to the base which has also been accomplished. Today the wife and I are going for a ride in the automobile so I can't go take a pic right now, but will when we return.

Squaring the verticals was easier than expected. I do not have much welding experience, so was expecting it to be harder than it turned out to be. I locked the 6 inch channel in my huge bench vise and used a mallet to get it level. Then I put one tiny tack weld on the vertical channel and moved the channel until it was plumb then put on another tack to hold it there. An adjustment with the mallet made a check of both level for the base and plumb for the vertical and it was ready to weld. I tacked four other places around the channel then filled in 1/2 lengths at a time around the inside and outside of the channel. This is probably overkill, but at least with overkill you get it good and dead.

Then I welded the other upright on the other side by determining a comfortable diastase apart leaving half an inch between the side of the jack and the upright on either side. To ensure parallelism of the uprights, I followed this procedure. Maybe some welders out there know an easier way. I sawed the die platform which will go on top of the jack to the jack width + one inch dimension. I also sawed a 1 x 4 to that same dimension. To make a little bit of clearance, I clamped the die platform and 1 x 4 between the uprights with a couple of plastic laminate samples as shims. Then I welded the second upright to the base just as I had the first.

I also welded a couple pieces of angle onto the base to support the jack because it is wider front to back than the 5 inch channel. I drilled a .257 (Letter F drill) through the base of the jack for attach holes. I used a transfer punch to mark the baseplate for 1/4 inch screws which now hold the jack to the base.

As I said, I will post some pice tonight or tomorrow showing what I am talking about.

Thank you KTN, you started a fire under me a couple years ago that is finally being realized now that other higher priority projects have been completed. I like your design so much.

Barry

Lyrax
04-08-2013, 04:51 PM
Would love to see the progress on this.

Thanks
Lyrax