.38 Spec. WC, anything special about that?

[jayjay1]

Hey guys,
I´m reloading now several calibers for over ten years.

But I never did a WC-load in .38 Special.

Is there anything to know about, when drowning the hole bullet into the case?
How deep should the be seated, even with the case mouth, deeper, higher?
Is there a crimp necessary or not?


I would appreciate your help.
:smile:

[1Shirt]

38S Wadcutters are one of the easiest, and cheapest loads I know of, and most are very accurate to 25 yd. There are a number of different types of WC's, some that seat flush with the mouth, some above the mouth in a crimp groove. My personal preference is the Lyman 358091 at about 148 gr. Shoots well in most 38's over
2 1/2 to 3 gr. of Bullseye.
1Shirt!

[Maven]

jj1, Many, if not all WC mold designs have a crimp groove, which may answer the question of how deep they must be seated. However, your gun may prefer them to be seated slightly below the case mount, e.g., ~1/16", and then crimped. Lastly, my RCBS 148r. button nose WC is much more accurate if I seat it backwards (button nose is toward the powder) and crimped in the last (now first) lube groove. In fact, in one gun it shoots best if I seat it both backwards and below the case mouth and then roll crimp over it. In short, you'll have to experiment with seating depth, forward v. backward orientation, etc.

[Scharfschuetze]

For a revolver, there doesn't seem to be any issue with seating 'em out further than flush, although many cast WCs have a crimping groove that works pretty well to set your seating depth. I generally seat to the crimping groove for revolver ammo and call it good. Many will argue about a crimp being necessary or not, but your testing will tell you what your pistol likes. I generally use a slight roll crimp or taper crimp as my charge of Bullseye (classic load is 2.7 grains of BE for a 148 grain WC) is hardly a load that will dislodge a bullet from the case if you have enough case neck tension to hold things together. A hard cast WC shot at higher velocities for small game hunting will probably need a bit more crimp than a target load.

For semi-autos shooting the 38 Special, 38 AMU, etc., out of S&W 52s or 1911s you need to seat the WC flush with the lip of the case in order for the pistol to function properly. This is due to the magazine's need for as short as possible revolver round to function properly.

[bhn22]

Here's some more information, if you haven't already seen it.

http://www.hensleygibbs.com/TCD/articles/75000wadcutters.htm
http://www.hensleygibbs.com/edharris/articles/38wadcutterQA.htm

[oldlincoln]

The NRA "Cast Bullets" manual by Col. Harrison has a very good read on 38 Sp. Wadcutter accuracy.

[jayjay1]

Thanks for your writeups everyone!

That´s a lot of good info!

To start with low costs, not knowing if this will work fine, I want to order me a LEE mold for the beginning.

The question is, should I take the Tumble Lube design or the Groove lube one?
(I will coat them.)

[dubber123]

Thanks for your writeups everyone!

That´s a lot of good info!

To start with low costs, not knowing if this will work fine, I want to order me a LEE mold for the beginning.

The question is, should I take the Tumble Lube design or the Groove lube one?
(I will coat them.)


I have no experience with the tumble lube version, but I can say after a good bit of 50 yard testing, the LEE standard lube groove version shoots just as good as several Ideal/Lyman designs, and as well as my RCBS and H&G wadcutter molds. I will also say that other designs will pretty easily out shoot wadcutters, especially at the 50 yard range and beyond.

[KYCaster]

Look for wadcutter brass. Remington and Winchester wadcutter brass has two canalures, like this:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=45881&d=1341888075

Federal uses one canalure where the base of a flush seated 148 gr. wadcutter would be.

Other cases may work or may not, depending on the wall thickness.

Jerry

[35remington]

Yep, wadcutters are best in wadcutter cases so +1.

Also, due to the deep seating of the bullets charges must be used that are specific to wadcutters. Loads that are safe with more shallowly seated 158 SWC's are way too heavy for deeply seated 148 WC's.

[texassako]

I tumble lube the 358091 with 45/45/10. I tried a few traditionally lubed(bottom groove only) when I first picked up my Lyman 450 and saw no difference. I don't even bother sizing since my mold drops the size I need.

[Shooter6br]

I use a H&G 4 cav 148 g WC(#50). Get for target or self defense Ed Harris Revisiting The Full Charge Wadcutter Reloading, Ammunition, Hunting GrantCunningham.com (http://www.grantcunningham.com/blog_files/75f11fe4e235da7c69cabf94daa7dbd9-932.html) :p

[tazman]

I have used both the tumble lube and regular lube versions from Lee as well as a number of Lyman designs and can't say they shoot much if any differently. I have used them regular lubed, tumble lubed, and powder coated with similar results.
This is pretty much a use what you wish choice.

[Scharfschuetze]

Good point on the double canalure cases. The double canalure cases are proper for the long and easily compressed hollow base wad cutter boolits, particularly the swaged Hornady or Speer products. A regular solid wad cutter (often double ended) is fine in any 38 or 357 case.

[Outpost75]

+1 on the Ed Harris articles co-hosted on Hensley & Gibbs and Grant Cunningham. Forget all the other BS and follow what he says and you will be happy. Also Texas Flyboy"s article 75,000 wadcutters in an S&W Model 27!

[jayjay1]

Thanks gentlemen!

I clearly understand, that wall thickness matters much, by seating the bullet all the way down into a case.

Of course I understand too, that with seating those bullets so deep, the powder room melts down, so that I have to reduce powder dramatically to hold the pressure in a safe area.

I think I will go with the lube groove - version, because I´m afraid, that the TL - design, getting even a little thicker with the coating, will get an almost flat surface by sizing.

Maven writes here, that he is seating his WC with the button nose downwards to the powder.
Does that matter?

I will read those articles and then go through my load datas.
I have Lovex S011 on hands, which is in the area of Bullseye, Clays or W231, and seems a gtg powder for the .38 Special to me.
Lovex lists several loads for the S011 in this caliber.

Thanks again, I highly appreciate your help!
:drinks:

[StrawHat]

I have loaded the Lee 150 DEWC by the bucket to feed my revolves for the 10 years I shot PPC. In my revolvers, I found the best overall accuracy, and easiest loading from the speedloaders, came with the boolit about 1/10" out of the case. My target load was 2.7 grains of Bullseye with a softer boolit. It carried well to the 50 yard targets and beyond.

My carry load was the same boolit cast harder and pushed to +/- 850 fps. It made a nice shooting load from the little 38 Specials.

Kevin

[Petrol & Powder]

I've also reloaded and shot a bunch of wadcutters but I must confess that most of those were in my pre-casting days so they were largely commercially made. My favorite was the Speer hollow based WC. With that bullet I would crimp them in the conventional manner with the leading edge of the bullet just slightly below the case mouth. The crimp was almost imperceptible and was just enough to turn the brass inward so that the case mouth didn't hang up on the rear face of the cylinder when loading. With the light powder charges appropriate for a hollow based WC I never had a problem with a bullet moving forward out of the casing. Speaking of light charges and hollowbased WC's - never exceed the maximum charge weight with HBWC's, there's a danger of separating the "skirt" of the bullet and leaving it in the bore as an obstruction. Solid WC's can safely be pushed a little faster if desired.
Now that I'm casting WC's, I seat to the crimp groove (SAECO WC mold) and that leaves a little of the bullet outside of the case.
I shoot way more semi wadcutters than full wadcutters these days and prefer the SWC. However, the full wadcutter does hold some advantages. It cuts clean holes when shooting paper targets and with light powder charges it is my go-to load when introducing new shooters to center fire handguns.

[ABJ]

I have been working up a Bullseye load since the end of 2014 season so i can shoot my smith model 15, with a red dot scope in the center-fire match. I have tried magma dewc, lee standard button nose and lee tumble lube dewc. The very best i have found is the standard lee button nose. Second is the tumble lube bullet. I've tried others as well but these are the top two for me. Overall i have found for the revolver that leaving the front driving band exposed and a light crimp in the top crimp groove gives the best performance. i only crimp enough to prevent bullet set back during recoil. Lube of choice is carnuba red or bac from white label lubes, can't really tell any difference, and a light wash of 45-45-10, about a .25 teaspoon per 100 boolits. 45-45-10 only on as cast tumble lube boolits, about .5 teaspoon per 100.
Cases: overall the rp wadcutter cases as compared to all other w/c cases yield the best groups. Federal w/c cases are a close second.
Standard cases, federal= #1, Winchester=#2, rp= #3.
While i am on cases i'll relate the very very very best case prep things i have done, and i am NOT suggesting you do this just giving the info. I repeat DO NOT DO THIS unless you feel comfortable with it. I take regular federal cases fired in the gun i'm using and de-prime without sizing. then bell with a lyman "m" die. Then prime, powder, seat boolit with thumb pressure as far as possible then ease it into the seating die to finish(adjusted not to crimp) and lastly into the crimp die. WARNING; make sure the case mouth tapers under the front driving band to prevent set back. this lack of case tension has gave me less than 1/2 inch ctc groups at 25 yds over and over. My go to powder is Unique 3.5 grains.(my unique is 1970's era. if using new start lower.) Other powders that are showing promise are Bullseye-3.2, HP-38 3.4. My alloy is soft range lead with a little tin and lino to yield about 11 brinell. Let me also say that this will NOT work on flush seated w/c. there is not enough case tension to prevent the boolit from dropping into and onto the powder charge and resulting in a very very bad over pressure situation.
I trim all my brass to 1.147, uniform primer pockets and de-burr flash holes. For match shooting i believe all those are necessary but not so much for plinking. Sorry for the long winded reply and i hope the info is of some use to you. Also that technique was given to me by a PPC shooter back when they used revolvers.

Tony

[RedHawk357Mag]

Thanks for taking the time to post that Tony. I appreciate your effort as it gives me some ideas to approach a couple things from a different angle.

[Char-Gar]

+1 on the Ed Harris articles co-hosted on Hensley & Gibbs and Grant Cunningham. Forget all the other BS and follow what he says and you will be happy. Also Texas Flyboy"s article 75,000 wadcutters in an S&W Model 27!

LIKE and AMEN!!

I liked the Hensley and Gibbs 244 WC...If you are going flat nose, go really flat. Also, like some others, I often crimp the WC in the top lube groove to get a little relief in the boiler room. Mostly I do this in 357 Magnum cases with 10/2400. These shoot very well in my Smith and Wessons when sized .357. The bullet in the second pic is an NEI wad cutter from a mold I have had for a number of years.

[rintinglen]

The only addendum I will make is that best accuracy usually comes from loads heavier than the classic "2.7" Bullseye loads. 3.0 to 3.2 grains of Bullseye, or 3.3 to 3.5 grains of WW-231 worked better for me, especially at 50 yards, with the Cramer 16H I used in my salad days for PPC. The 16 H is similar to the H&G 50, LEE standard Lube, Lyman 358-495, etc. All are much of a muchness, and while these days the old 3 Cavity Cramer mold has been pretty much retired in favor of a 4 cavity H&G 50, I still shoot more Wadcutters than any other boolit.

[docmagnum357]

The 148 grain wad cutter is what makes the 38 Special Special. All I use on 38 Special s a 148 Lee, cast of whatever alloy I am able to get, over whatever powder I am able to get. I am using about 2.9 of Red dot right now, but my favorite so far is 231.

[Bill*B]

When you are looking at published loads, do pay attention to the cartridge overall length. In my innocent youth, I made the assumption that all wadcutters would be seated flush with the case mouth. Wrong! I took a mild load for a bullet which (I noticed in retrospect) was seated 1/4" out, and loaded my bullets flush. I still have all my fingers, thanks to the tough steel S&W put into their Combat Masterpiece, but the crane was sprung and I had to send it to Cylinder and Slide for repair. Now, I'm not trying to tell you how stupid I am - I have average intelligence - I just made an unwarranted assumption, and ruined a fine pistol. Don't be like me - BE ALERT! - and watch that COL when you are browsing loading manuals. Forgive me if I sound "preachy" - my lapse made an impression on me! Have fun, be aware, and be safe. Bill