Triple Seven fffg Catridge Catastrophe???

[Southern Shooter]

There have been a number threads about whether to use Hodgdon's Triple Seven in catridge ammunition. I also understand that there is a factory warning about how this powder is used or not used.

In my case, I am using the fffg version of Triple Seven in my .45 Colt handloads pushing a 265 grain boolit @ 900 FPS. I use this in my Uberti revolvers. I have had no problems with this combination.

Question:
Has anyone had problems using Triple Seven ffg or fffg in their cartridge ammunition? If so, please share the details.

Thanks

[pworley1]

I have used it in my .577 snider ammo with no issues.

[oldred]

Don't misunderstand I am not at all trying to be a BP purist but once again I have to ask, when it comes to the subs WHY? If you don't want to use real BP, and I understand there may be several good reasons for why you can't or don't want to, then why not just use an appropriate smokeless BP equivalent load and avoid all the hassles? After all shooting one of the subs is just as different from shooting BP as shooting smokeless so why bother? It looks, loads, shoots and even smells different and is in no way "authentic" so I just fail to see the point since it is neither smokeless nor BP and is not like shooting either, it's just a third kind of way to load and shoot. However that's just me and the stuff does go bang just fine even if it is dirty and corrosive so if you like shooting it then I am not trying to say you shouldn't but rather I just have to wonder what's the point?

[Southern Shooter]

Why use Triple Seven? Because it was available. It was not an issue of wanting authenticity. I just wanted to shoot!! When the drought of powders was in full swing creativity had to be used. And, the store near my home came into a load of Triple Seven and I bought 4 lbs. of it to experiment with. :-)

[Dale53]

Southern Shooter;
Here is Hodgdon's warning about using Triple Seven in cartridges. NOTE: That they state only 2F should be used in cartridges:

Triple Seven In Cartridges: Use data specifically developed for Triple Seven FFG only. Cartridge loads should be used exactly as listed in this pamphlet. You may safely use a card or polyethylene wad up to .030" in thickness to protect the base of the bullet. Loading density should be 100% with light compression not to exceed .100". Testing has shown that Triple Seven will perform best when the bullet just touches the powder. Allow no airspace between the base of the bullet and the powder. Do not reduce loads by means of filler wads or inert filler material such as Grits, Dacron or Grex. Do not heavily compress powder charges. The use of filler wads, inert fillers or heavy compression may cause a dangerous situation, which could cause injury and/or death to the shooter, bystanders or damage property. Do not create loads for cartridges not listed. Contact Hodgdon Powder Company for recommendations concerning other loads. *See WARNINGS below.

I would suggest that you call Hodgdon on the phone and ask specific questions of them regarding your intended loading method. I have found them very helpful when I have called.

FWIW
Dale53

[Nobade]

I have used T7 in quite a few cartridge guns with no problems. Always straightwall ones though, never tried it in bottlenecks. To reply to Oldred, I suppose the answer is varied depending on who you are talking to, but I tried it because I wanted to see what would happen. The subs do have one advantage and that is reloading with them is very simple since you don't really need load data or a scale. Fill the case up to the base of the bullet, put one on top of the powder, and go shoot. A long time ago Elmer Keith recommended everyone who gets into reloading do so with black powder at first since it is so simple and you can't overload it. The sub powders are the same now. I also only ever use real black powder any more, but the fake ones will propel a bullet down range and let you shoot your gun and that's what it's all about isn't it?

-Nobade

[oldred]

The "can't overload" angle does have merit but then that can be said of several smokeless choices in some cartridges, having never loaded 45 Colt I can't say if it would be true for it or not. Just being able to dump the powder in an go would definitely simplify things but then it would seem that the extra attention to detail after shooting would off-set that advantage, of course if neither BP nor an appropriate smokeless is available then it would make all kinds of sense. Still unless there just isn't anything else to be had it just seems like it's a lot of bother to shoot something that's so different than either of the options.

Like I said I am NOT telling anyone they shouldn't shoot waht they want to shoot nor am I trying to push my point of view on anyone else, I think what I am asking is a legitimate question and there's no reason for anyone to take offense.

[Southern Shooter]

No offense taken. I look at like this, also...I have Blue Dot, HS-6, Unique, Bullseye, W231, Titegroup, Trail Boss, HP-38...all of which will work just fine in my .45 Colts. And, yes, some of these are a little more accurate than Triple Seven. But, because Triple Seven also functions fine in my guns and provides fair accuracy...heck, shoot it up. And, I don't see all the fuss about cleaning up after using it. Seems like a simple job and takes very little time. And, as for corrosion, there have been a few comments here and there, on-line. But, there has been no huge amount of evidence delivered that tells me this powder is bad for my guns. I mean, I have seen more guns rust from folks leaving them wet in the truck after a hunt than I have from using this powder.

[oldred]

Well I suppose I would shoot it before tossing it out, that wouldn't make much sense! I think what started me thinking about this was a post on this forum a couple of years ago and a very similar post about the same time on another site, neither of which I replied to. The one here was when someone was asking about a particular gun/caliber and a reply said "for the BP experience load up some pyrodex (or whatever I honestly don't remember) and cast bullets". I could not help but think how in the world is doing that the "BP experience"? I mean when you look at it none of the subs are very much like BP with them having almost nothing in common, sure they can be used in (most) firearms designed for BP and they go bang and make smoke but it pretty much ends there. The "smoke" is there but even it's way different and is not even close to the same. These powders do not load the same as BP, they fill the cases but the requirements as to compression, etc are different, they have different pressures/velocities and they even look and smell different. They are however similar to BP for fowling, corrosion and cleaning requirements, some better some worse for each example, while being different in most other respects. Choosing an appropriate smokeless (or much better yet real BP if available!) eliminates the undesirable attributes of the subs yet still allows shooting at BP pressures and velocities and is really very little different than the subs to real BP with the exception of phony smoke. Again I am not saying don't shoot the subs if you want to I am just discussing the pros and cons of choosing a sub vs a smokeless if BP can not be the first choice for whatever reason. The bottom line is to have fun with whatever we choose to shoot and maybe discussing these points might make it better for someone.

[Tar Heel]

Good points SS. Use it if you have it. The shortages of the last few years have made us all experimenters to some extent. You can see it in the threads here asking about not so common propellants in common cartridges. I have hit the manuals looking to see if any loads exists for xxx powder in the yyy caliber. Fortunately with a library collected over 40 years, one can usually find something obscure or ask the gray-beards on here.

[oldred]

Good points SS. Use it if you have it.


Agreed and I never suggested otherwise, when there was nothing but a clean spot on the shelf where powder once was sitting for sale then ANYTHING that would safely go bang made sense! I have asked this question several times and every time there have been reasons offered as to why a person shoots one of the subs, some good reasons and some not so good, but the question is not why a sub but rather why not just use a suitable smokeless load instead and avoid the hassle of the subs? There are many good reasons to shoot real BP, heck even the nostalgia thing is more than enough reason, but almost none of the reasons for choosing BP over smokeless apply to a sub except in an instance where smokeless is not safe due to the gun design, ML, C&B, etc.

[montana_charlie]

Well I suppose I would shoot it before tossing it out,

Good points SS. Use it if you have it.

You two may have forgotten that the author wants information about using a granulation which is specifically warned against by the powder manufacturer.
While your advice is 'friendly', it may also be 'dangerous'.

[Tar Heel]

You two may have forgotten that the author wants information about using a granulation which is specifically warned against by the powder manufacturer.
While your advice is 'friendly', it may also be 'dangerous'.

Montana...thanks for the heads up. My comments are general in nature and do not reference specific propellants. Always pays to be safe however so thanks for the oversight.

[oldred]

You two may have forgotten that the author wants information about using a granulation which is specifically warned against by the powder manufacturer.
While your advice is 'friendly', it may also be 'dangerous'.


Good point, it just goes to show that the subs are not always a safe alternative! Of course the wrong BP granulation could also be a problem, maybe anyway, but I think in that case one would probably have to go to 4F priming powder to create a bad situation and even then I don't know for sure how much of a problem it might be? Still you're 100% right and my statement that "I suppose I would shoot it before throwing it out" was not well thought out and in that case with it being the wrong powder for the job it would appear that tossing it out would be the better choice!

[cajun shooter]

I have ordered and received BP any time I needed some. There was not a BP shortage while the smokeless and 22LR ammo thing was and is still going on.
If a person desires to shoot the real BP and has something other than a PO box address to deliver to, Several BP distributors will have it sent to your front door. It is actually much easier than shooting the other kind of powder.
The OP has tried to do something that the makers of the product has told him not to do, but he continued to press the issue. Later David

[okshooter]

I had no problems with the 50-60 rounds I tried (35 gr. under a Lee 452-200-RFP as cast and tumble lubed with 45-45-10) in a Ruger Old Army with a Howell conversion cylinder.
I just got off the phone with Mike @ Hodgdon. The reason they do not list Triple Seven FFFg for cartridge loads is pressure. He said the smaller granulated FFFg generates higher pressures and could crack cases. I then ask him about the black powder (goexpowder.com) data wherein they also list FFg only for 45 Colt pistols and revolvers. He said the lower pressure generated by black powder would allow either FFg or FFFg to be used in 45 Colt cartridge loads.
I guess it is a personal decision. I am brand new at this cap and ball/conversion shooting and I am trying to gather in all the know how I can.

[greywuuf]

"I have ordered and received BP any time I needed some. There was not a BP shortage while the smokeless and 22LR ammo thing was and is still going on."

well that is also a problem for some of us. REAL P is classed as an explosive by ATF and requires separate storage and shipping rules. My local gun shops do NOT carry real black, AND being that I am in Alaska I can NOT get BP shipped to me ( ok I can but I pay two hazmat fee's and a freight charge of about $130 for ANY amount up to 300 pounds or one pallet )

SO I can get real BP for about $180/ lb Or I can buy the Subs off the shelf for about $20 .... and they never ran out even during the powder shortage ( which to a large extent is still going on )

that is one of the reasons I shoot subs in my front stuffers and in BPC

[oldred]

There are several reasons for shooting subs in a ML for a lot of folks since that's the only practical option when, as in your case BP is simply not an option, but as I have asked several times in the past for BPC shooting why not just substitute a suitable smokeless? For most, but maybe not all, cartridges it would seem that if real BP is not available then a suitable smokeless would be the lesser of the available evils? I have asked this question several times and gotten good answers, some not so good and others seem to dodge the question, not at all saying a person should not shoot one of the subs or anything else that he/she likes but I am honestly just curious. I shoot a 45-90 HighWall style rifle and while I have become quite fond of real BP I can not see any reason to shoot any of the subs when I don't shoot BP, there are smokeless loads that are equal to or lower pressure than real BP and some of these slower powders are bulky enough for a good case fill and give pretty good accuracy. I am not trying to plug smokeless here! Just pointing out that IF real BP is not to be used it just makes more sense to me to use a suitable smokeless as a sub rather than deal with the hassles of the real subs.


If there is an exception it would be Black Horn 209, that stuff works great! BUT, IMHO it's really just a very bulky smokeless powder and is based on smokeless technology. Other than it's bulk and a bit of fake smoke it is far more akin to loading smokeless than any of the subs are to real BP. But then there is the cost of the dang stuff!!!!

[greywuuf]

currently I can get 50bmg in 8 pound jugs and Steel.... of the three BP subs make the most sense.... plus smokeless in my side lock front stuffer is pretty much a non starter.

[Don McDowell]

Buffalo Arms says they're now shipping blackpowder to Alaska.

[cajun shooter]

My point was that if you have a BP rifle like a front stuffer then there are ways to obtain the correct powder it was designed for. Just as Don posted, Buffalo Arms is shipping BP there.
I would try making my own before shooting a sub, they are just like everything else in this world that wants to play like but not take the steps to do so. It's much easier to just say, I can't get it.
I had a gunsmith who did all the warranty work for EMF ruin a brand new TTN shotgun of mine by using a sub in it.
I told him that I shot nothing but 100% BP in all of my guns in the SASS matches that the gun was to be used in. He advised that he had a friend that shot BP in SASS matches and he would get some 12 ga. shells from him. Well, It seems that most who shoot the subs tell everyone that they shoot in the BP classes. A rule that I would liked changed and only allow the real thing.
The gunsmith shot my new shotgun with the subs, boxed it up and shipped it to my FFL via a 5 day delivery. I almost fell over when I opened the box. My new shotgun had barrels that were solid RUST!!
I sent several pics to the company and they fired that gunsmith and sent me a new gun. Had he used real BP, my gun would of still been good.
The investigation turned up the reason for the Rust, it seems that the BP ammo was actually loaded with Pyrodex. Later David

[greywuuf]

Understood, my point is....regular people can NOT ship via the US mail any powder or loaded ammo. Regular people can go to the store and buy Subs, son e of them CAN NOT buy black powder. I'll give you my address and you go ahead and see what it takes and what it costs to get a can of real black powder to me. I bet you have no idea. All of Alaska is NOT Anchorage....that is a 6 hour road trip for me ..(each way) seriously at least a couple hundred bucks in gas alone ($3.00 bucks a gallon here it has come down...Was closer to 4 at the begining of winter). The Question was asked "why would anyone use a sub instead of smokeless or real black?". The answer is in my case because that is all I have....all that is available to buy of the shelf with 1000 miles of me and postal regulations and international law make it very expensive to ship. Simple as that.

[greywuuf]

Just got off the phone with Buffalo arms. Yes they can ship to me....via freight forwarder....meaning up to 300 pounds is all one price (shipping) approaching 200 bucks. So I can go to the store buy one can of pyrodex for 20 bucks or I can buy one pound of black powder for 245 bucks and wait upwards of a month for it to be shipped via barge and then delivered to a freight dock.

[oldred]

Please don't misunderstand my post I fully understand why you can't get real BP and it is usually much easier to get the subs for a lot of us down here even with BP being available. For myself I just order it and wait on it, it usually takes only a few days to arrive (again I know that's not an option for you) but for a lot of guys they had rather just pick up the subs a pound at a time at Wally World and be done with it -to each his own I suppose. Of course for a ML if real BP is not practical then that leaves nothing but the subs, that or just don't shoot, but then that leaves the BP cartridges. Subs will make them go bang ok but it's nothing at all like shooting real BP since they (any of the subs) load, shoot, look and even smell different but they still have all the extra care that BP requires and in some ways are even more critical, a suitable smokeless used as a "sub" in this case would seem to me to be a viable choice and is no more "improper" than one of the subs -some of which are higher pressure than either BP or some of the smokeless loads. But then if the right smokeless is not available either then that only leaves Pyrodex, T7, etc and any of them would certainly beat not shooting at all!

[Motor]

My point was that if you have a BP rifle like a front stuffer then there are ways to obtain the correct powder it was designed for. Just as Don posted, Buffalo Arms is shipping BP there.
I would try making my own before shooting a sub, they are just like everything else in this world that wants to play like but not take the steps to do so. It's much easier to just say, I can't get it.
I had a gunsmith who did all the warranty work for EMF ruin a brand new TTN shotgun of mine by using a sub in it.
I told him that I shot nothing but 100% BP in all of my guns in the SASS matches that the gun was to be used in. He advised that he had a friend that shot BP in SASS matches and he would get some 12 ga. shells from him. Well, It seems that most who shoot the subs tell everyone that they shoot in the BP classes. A rule that I would liked changed and only allow the real thing.
The gunsmith shot my new shotgun with the subs, boxed it up and shipped it to my FFL via a 5 day delivery. I almost fell over when I opened the box. My new shotgun had barrels that were solid RUST!!
I sent several pics to the company and they fired that gunsmith and sent me a new gun. Had he used real BP, my gun would of still been good.
The investigation turned up the reason for the Rust, it seems that the BP ammo was actually loaded with Pyrodex. Later David

So what are you saying Dave? Real BP fouling is not corrosive?

[Don McDowell]

Real powder fouling is nowhere near as corrosive as internet myth would have you believe, and certainly less than pyrodex.

[Motor]

I've been around flintlocks since the mid 1970's and have seen my fair share of neglected rifles after being used with the "holy black" and its not pretty.

As far as Pyrodex goes I'll take your word for it. I use it sometimes but I don't neglect to clean my rifles afterwords so corrosion is not a problem.

Motor

[paul s]

Yep, what he said!


Don't misunderstand I am not at all trying to be a BP purist but once again I have to ask, when it comes to the subs WHY? If you don't want to use real BP, and I understand there may be several good reasons for why you can't or don't want to, then why not just use an appropriate smokeless BP equivalent load and avoid all the hassles? After all shooting one of the subs is just as different from shooting BP as shooting smokeless so why bother? It looks, loads, shoots and even smells different and is in no way "authentic" so I just fail to see the point since it is neither smokeless nor BP and is not like shooting either, it's just a third kind of way to load and shoot. However that's just me and the stuff does go bang just fine even if it is dirty and corrosive so if you like shooting it then I am not trying to say you shouldn't but rather I just have to wonder what's the point?

[cajun shooter]

Motor, Well let me see if I can tell you exactly what I mean. First, Yes I'm saying that real BP is not even close to being corrosive like any of the so called subs. I have shot BP since 1970 and was there when the salesman walked in with the first Pyrodex to be in the Baton Rouge, La. area. They gave us all of the Please buy me instead of the Dupont Black powder you are now using information telling us why Pyrodex was better.
Well we went and shot the stuff and waited until the next day to clean the guns as we did all the time with our Dupont. What we saw put us into shock as every gun had a barrel full of corrosion!! It took some hard scrubbing to get those guns clean. I have never shot any sub since and will not. If BP becomes extinct, I will become a smokeless shooter, not a sub shooter.
I shoot my SASS matches on Saturday and don't clean my guns until Monday sometimes Tuesday with not a single problem, not even a hint of anything wrong.
If you want to come to Louisiana, I will be more than happy to do a SXS test with you and your guns. Just remember you are going to be in a very high humidity area.
I will say the very same thing that was posted by another member, If you can't get any real BP and don't care for the hassle of trying to find it, then why shoot a fake powder that only adds chemicals to make it smoke that is not like it at all. The whole thing is neither BP nor smokeless but a breed of powder that is all it's own.
I don't care if you purchase a ton of the stuff, my problem has been when sub shooters want to compare the loads with real BP loads in this forum. Take Care David

[prs]

To our Alsaka pard, I feel for Ya, man. I sure hope your choice of subs is NOT limited to Pyrustdex. There used to be several subs other than 777 or Pyrustdex.

I have never had a corrosion problem with real Holy Black, be it crappy Elephant, Goex, Shuetzen, or Swiss. I have waited weeks in between cleanings when shooting regularly on once or twice weekly schedule. With Pyrodex, I would get heavy pitting and fuzzy rust "growth" even after hot soapy water cleanings and then oiling.

A lot of the bad reputation for corrosion with BP is due to old time mercuric primers and caps. Flinters would really have to be neglected, even here in humid WV to be corroded by real black powder. The quality of lube will play a roll, if one uses lard or other salty grease in their lube recipe, you will get corrosion. If the lube quality and or quantity is inadequate to where you get excessive barrel heat, say to where it is difficult to touch your barrel at the end of a cowboy stage; then you will be more prone to rusting. If you are getting excessive fouling to where the weapon is losing accuracy, it will be more prone to corrosion as such fouling also draws and holds moisture after the fun is done. I cleaned a Marlin rifle this AM that has been shot exclusively with real black powder since new, about 17 years now. Last shot Past November with Swiss under PRS boolits with Emmerts lube, about 50 rounds. I had wiped it down and patched it with Ballistol and its been down in my humid basement in a wooden gun cabinet since. Not a speck of rust and the barrel looks pristine.

prs

[brad925]

You cannot clean a gun that has shot pyrodex the same way as one that is shooting BP. When cleaning a gun that has shot pyrodex the use of a mild solution of vinigar is needed to neutralize the salts left by the pyrodex. I use windex with vinigar.There is not enough vinigar in it to hurt the blueing but it will neutralize the salts. Hogdon recommends a 50\50 water vinigar mix for soaking the cases as well but only for ten minutes so it doesnt etch the cases then scrub and rinse them. Just like you dont clean your smokeless rifles like your BP rifles, you dont clean your rifle you have shot pyrodex out of like you would if you shot BP.

[Nobade]

The old GI bore cleaner works well for Pyro. Designed to clean out residue from corrosive primers. I would clean like normal for BP, then use that bore cleaner, then lots of oil, then redo it the next day. Once I learned how aggressive that stuff was I didn't have any more problems with rusty guns. But the initial discoveries were dramatic, trying to treat it like I would with BP.

-Nobade

[salpal48]

I have used 777 in a variety of cartridges pistol and rifle. 32S&w to 11mm Comblain and 50/70 . No problem.
To answer the question"why Use sub's.
The answer is I want To
. Plain and simple

[bigted]

"I have ordered and received BP any time I needed some. There was not a BP shortage while the smokeless and 22LR ammo thing was and is still going on."

well that is also a problem for some of us. REAL P is classed as an explosive by ATF and requires separate storage and shipping rules. My local gun shops do NOT carry real black, AND being that I am in Alaska I can NOT get BP shipped to me ( ok I can but I pay two hazmat fee's and a freight charge of about $130 for ANY amount up to 300 pounds or one pallet )

SO I can get real BP for about $180/ lb Or I can buy the Subs off the shelf for about $20 .... and they never ran out even during the powder shortage ( which to a large extent is still going on )

that is one of the reasons I shoot subs in my front stuffers and in BPC

http://www.norwestcompany.com/indent.htm

don't know if you are anywhere close to Fairbanks ... but even tho he didn't carry some brands and mostly GOEX regular 1, 2, 3, and 4F powder ... you can get "real" black powder from this source ... at least I did for the 15 years I lived up there. another feller in the Anchorage area but I cant remember his handle nor a company name.

if you contact Norwest ... tell Swanny I sent ya over ... wont carry any water but I bet he will remember the biggest guy he ever sold powder to ... LOL

[texaswoodworker]

I told him that I shot nothing but 100% BP in all of my guns in the SASS matches that the gun was to be used in. He advised that he had a friend that shot BP in SASS matches and he would get some 12 ga. shells from him. Well, It seems that most who shoot the subs tell everyone that they shoot in the BP classes. A rule that I would liked changed and only allow the real thing.


Well, that's pretty selfish. You don't like something, so you think you have to ruin everybody else's fun by banning the powder they use even though their use of it has no effect on you. Oh, and don't try to use the argument that "It's not authentic" because SASS allows so many non authentic things in their competitions that it's not even funny. NCOWS is another story though.

[No_1]

Enough! I have created a sub forum for black powder substitutes so each can have an area to discus their particular thoughts without negativity from the other. Use them or lose them.

Robert

[Red River Rick]

.......I have created a sub forum for black powder substitutes so each can have an area to discus their particular thoughts without negativity from the other.

Robert

Rob:

Good call................hopefully it will keep the Peace.

RRR

[longinosoap]

Once again, a question about a sub was asked and before it could be answered, a fellow who never uses a sub and probably shouldn't be trolling this thread, has to chime in with his negative query about "why" we choose to shoot the powder that we do. Oh, he's nice about it alright, kind of like the lawyer who's very cordial, but still trying to send you to the hoosegow. And he is so prejudiced about it, he keeps coming back to troll.

We get your point. Because you don't use subs like some of us here do, you are morally and intellectually superior to those of us who do use them. We get that.

By the way, I use both. The subs are easier to load and clean up afterwards. The real deal goes BOOM and spits fire and flame. Both make SMOKE-both real smoke and the so-called fake smoke, whatever that is. Both are fun to shoot. Plus both are legal in frontier cartridge. If you want to get into "not authentic", lets start with short stroking guns.

Thanks for this sub thread. If we could only keep it from being hijacked.

[Southern Shooter]

+1 longinosoap

My entire line of thinking here started out when I was considering heavy .45 Colt loads shooting in the 30,000 PSI range. When powder was getting difficult to find, I ran into a bunch of the Triple 7 fffg and thought I would give it a try. My thought was that it was not anywhere near those pressures. And, I was not aware of the warning at the time...actually read that AFTER firing my test rounds...that is when the questions started. When the velocities showed in the low 900s with small SD and grouping was nice, I did not give it a thought that there may be something wrong with the load until I brought it up on this forum.

[longinosoap]

Southern shooter, I am not very good at being PC, but for goodness sake, hijacking a thread that's only a few minutes old is really looking hard to make sure that everyone knows one is morally superior than we poor souls who choose to shoot subs.

But, back to your point. Lots of pards I shoot with use Triple 7 and have recommended to me to try it, which I never have. I read threads like this to learn, and I had never heard of this warning, and I am sure most of the guys I shoot with had never heard of it either. I use Pinnacle (which is no longer available at PowderInc) or APP and am quite satisfied with what they do and how they perform for what I shoot. So will probably not try Triple 7. But now I can tell my shooting pards about this warning and they can research it themselves.

Like I said, I shoot both subs and real BP. I don't like having to mix and lube bullets for the real stuff but I d like the fire and flames and sparks it spits out, and of course the boom. But I like subs because they are easier to load (no lube needed) and are easy to clean guns afterwards. Still don't know if you ever got a good answer to your original post.

[Don McDowell]

Actually post #5 answered his question quite completely. Hogdons says to use only 2f 777 in cartridges.

[bruce drake]

I'm glad someone else asked this question as I'm considering using this powder in a couple of cartridges since I have a couple of pounds sitting on the shelf. 8x57 and 35 Winchester are my thoughts but I haven't started loading any yet.

[Southern Shooter]

Southern shooter, I am not very good at being PC, but for goodness sake, hijacking a thread that's only a few minutes old is really looking hard to make sure that everyone knows one is morally superior than we poor souls who choose to shoot subs.

longinosoap, I am not sure if you are referencing me in this statement. But, if you are, how can I be hijacking a thread that was my thread to begin with???

[dromia]

Lets us get back on topic here without arguing about who said what. This is a shooting forum not a school playground, we've made space to separate the true blacks from the not true blacks so lets not find other issues to fight over, surely life is too short.

For what it is worth my experiences with 777 have not been good and would recommend adhering completely to the manufacturers recommendations I certainly would not be confident in venturing beyond that as I have found it unpredictable and not very forgiving.

[Southern Shooter]

dromia,
Would you share with us what specifically was unpredictable about 777? And, in what way was it not forgiving?

Thank you

[longinosoap]

Southern Shooter, I was referencing post #3.

[Southern Shooter]

longinosoap, I apologize. My mistake.

[dromia]

I found 777 to be very compression sensitive and prone to velocity/pressure spikes for no obvious reason.

[Southern Shooter]

Thanks, dromia. That would not be a good thing...especially in a Colt clone.

Were the velocity/pressure spikes connected to compression of the 777? Or, were they totally random experiences?

Thanks

[dromia]

I suspect that some were and others had no obvious reason.

Bear in mind after trying this in a three cartridges one straight walled and two bottlenecked along with a M/L revolver and a percussion rifle, I just gave up on it. I haven't tried to find out what was going on, just that this powder didn't work for me. I only used it as I had a couple of pounds come in in a deal. I'm a BP shooter really.

[Southern Shooter]

Thank you

[Motor]

I've only used 777 in muzzleloading long guns (FFG) and all of my experience with it has been positive. So much so in fact that we use it in our flintlocks as well. It makes reloading in single digit temperatures with a deer looking at you a lot more easier. Of course the new fangeled mini's called Power Belts help a lot too. :)

Motor

PS: As far as Pyrodex goes I've always cleaned my guns the same day I used them. I guess good cleaning habits is why I never noticed how terrible it truly is.

[johnson1942]

i use blackhorn 209 powder in my colt clones and this is the reason. very accurate and a lot cleaner shooting that 777. also it fills the case behind the bullet. its not a magnum load either and that another good thing. quite a while back when i switched to 209 powder i poured my 777 powder and pyrodex powder on the flower bed. works wonders in makeing them bloom better.

[charlie b]

I've only used 777 in muzzleloading long guns (FFG) and all of my experience with it has been positive. So much so in fact that we use it in our flintlocks as well. It makes reloading in single digit temperatures with a deer looking at you a lot more easier. Of course the new fangeled mini's called Power Belts help a lot too. :)

Motor

So, I had trouble with ignition of 777 in a caplock. I had heard it would not work at all in a flintlock yet you are using it? Are you using it in the pan as well? Have you compared lock times between 3f black and 777?

PS I stopped using it in the caplock because of the 'crud ring' as well as the ignition issues. Went back to Pyrodex.

[Eldon]

It's garbage. Alliant Black is a direct sub, much cleaner and no warnings.

[big bore 99]

just bought a lb of ff to tryout in my 45-70. After reading this thru, think I'll just dump it out.

[Nobade]

just bought a lb of ff to tryout in my 45-70. After reading this thru, think I'll just dump it out.Don't. It works fine. Just keep the fouling wiped and you're good. I won't buy any more but have shot a lot of it through cartridge guns with no problems.

[gpidaho]

I'm pretty new to this but I fired my first 45-70 test round last week using 59gr. volume triple 7 ffg. The recoil felt somewhere between my Unique reduced load and my 3031 hunting load. ( I know this isn't very good science) Anyway primer looked fine and the burn was VERY clean almost no fouling in the case and less smoke than I expected. I'm going to try it in my inline next. If it works as good in that application as the cartridge I doubt I'll toss it out. Gp

[warren5421]

I started using 777 FFg or FFFg back when it came out, when I couldn't find black local. At the time there was no load data, just a sheet of paper with recommended loads. I used either FFg or FFFg in .44-40 and .45 Colt. For 7 1/2 barreled pistols I used a full case with about 1/16" compression for years but I have backed off on the charge to 20 gr in pistols with the rest filled with grits to get the 1/16" compression. Old hands can't take the recoil any more. Rifles, Model 73, Lighting, and 92's all get the full load. I never thought to look for load data after all the loading over the years.

[salvadore]

******** brad

[VICIOUS]

Here we are, NO Blackhorn 209 to be bought.
So a friend did a deep dive into stock pile and found triple 777 in 2F and 3F so sticking to the DATA ,guess some 2F is in my future for 38-55.

[Gobeyond]

To me, wouldn’t 3fffg t-7 be ok in pistol cartridges? Not much other use for it. I use 2ffg T-7 in my 43 Mauser antique. It shoots ok but kicks the heck out of me.

Do any of you use 3fffg black powder in rifle cartridges, specifically an 150 year old antique? Where would you say the pressure is on this use?

[Gobeyond]

Just use 15% less to start and add a wad!

[Larry Gibson]

I use Tripple fffg in my 45-70 TDs [original and H&Rs]. I load 46 gr (by weight) of it under a 16-1 cast Lee 458-405-HB sized .4615 and lubed with my BP lube (beeswax/olive oil). OAL is 2.572. Measured psi (Oehler M43) runs right at 28,000 (the SAAMI MAP) and 1334 fps out of a 24" barrel.

I use fffg BP in the 45-70 also now that Goex Cartridge isn't available.

[Gobeyond]

I use Tripple fffg in my 45-70 TDs [original and H&Rs]. I load 46 gr (by weight) of it under a 16-1 cast Lee 458-405-HB sized .4615 and lubed with my BP lube (beeswax/olive oil). OAL is 2.572. Measured psi (Oehler M43) runs right at 28,000 (the SAAMI MAP) and 1334 fps out of a 24" barrel.

I use fffg BP in the 45-70 also now that Goex Cartridge isn't available.

That’s too much for my antique imo . But it’s still low for a modern rifle. I’m out of T7 ffg and want to use that in a CVA scout
45-70. What dya think, Larry?

[Larry Gibson]

That’s too much for my antique imo . But it’s still low for a modern rifle. I’m out of T7 ffg and want to use that in a CVA scout
45-70. What dya think, Larry?

Why do you think "that's too much"?

[Gobeyond]

Why do you think "that's too much"?

Too much pressure for a 150 year old rifle? It was only rated at 13-18000 new. It might kaboom. That might be max for the gun I’m shooting now. Also hodgdon is against shooting that 3fg in cartridges because of pressure spikes. I’ve never done anything too wild and crazy like that in reloading, maybe in life. But since I want to shoot T7 3fg in 45-70 and 45 colt because I’ve got it
I think I will try it because you say it’s ok.

[Harter66]

I skipped the middle 2 pages of this 8 yr old . I've shot own self screened , against Goex FFg and FFFg, T7 FFFg , and Pyro RS and P . The difference in a 1858 Rem is about 50 fps with the Goexs at 25 gr measured . Pyrodex was about the same but started where Goex left off . T7 FFFg was a full 140 fps MV faster than Goex FFFg . When loaded in a 50 cal TC Hawkins the T7 presented hammer lift at 80 gr with Pyro RS going 90 gr and Goex FFg allowing the full 120 prescribed by the owners manual . All for a PRB .

I can't speak to anyone's choice but to get 150 fps gain from an 16 kpsi 200 gr SWC in a 45 Colts takes about 8,000 psi which is no big deal in a 7.5' Ruger or probably most any replica also rated for 45 ACP. But I saw posts regarding using T7 in a BP built Winchester 38-55 I can kind of see that being a big deal.

[Larry Gibson]

That’s too much for my antique imo . But it’s still low for a modern rifle. I’m out of T7 ffg and want to use that in a CVA scout
45-70. What dya think, Larry?

If you're referring to your M43 Mauser T& 3fg may pose a problem because of the larger case capacity of the Mauser cartridge as compared to the 45-70 cartridge. The 46 gr I use in the 45-70 under the 405 HB bullet runs about 105% density allowing for just slight compression. May not be able to do that with the Mauser cartridge and stay under the SAAMI MAP for the 45-70 w/TD loads.

I use the 46 gr/405 HB load in my '84 TD. The SAAMI MAP for the 45-70 is 28,000 psi not the sometimes mentioned 18,000 psi which is the older CUP measurement. The 28,000 psi SAAMI MAP is a transducer measurement. The T7 3fg load should be fine in your CVA.

BTW; I've found measuring pressures of full 70 gr straight BP loads to run upwards of 28,000 psi depending on bullet weight, make of BP and granulation. With the 405 HB the psi can run upwards of 25,000 psi.

[Gobeyond]

(: Thanks Larry. Very helpful info. Shooters don’t always love Jesus. As one who does I prayed for you. You got a lot of experience. But you can’t take it with you. In heaven I want to take target practice from here to the moon. I’m hoping.
I can do that because He loves me too. But He loves you too and that could make all the difference in the world… Jesus can make all things new and His death is a cause of great joy! Thanks again for conversing with me. You are all right.

[missionary5155]

Back to post (Gobeyond) #62.... Using 3F BP in old cartridge rifles..
Yes we do in our house. But I can only write about using Goex Brand. Always remember no "other name brand" BP is the same. Some of the "high end" BP's are hotter in burn rate / pressure.
But in original cartridge rifles we use 3F Goex in a 44 Frank Wesson, a 1876 Winchester 45-60, several 44 WCF 1873 Winchesters, a #2 Ballard in 38 Long and probably a couple more about the same era my thinker does not remember at this hour.
I do not know how Goex fits into the power scale of the other old powders from 120 years + ago. It may have been ranked by true pressure testing a little low ?
Now we are faced with the "new this year" batches of Goex coming down the sales lines. I have not seen any yet. But one day I hope to drive down to Friendship, Indiana and purchase some 2F and 3F to fire up some tests from a modern test rifle and revolver. No idea if the New Goex will be cleaner, hotter or just as it was. But even in the 1600's people figured out how to test one keg from another.

Keep on spreading the Good News of the Love of God for all of us and Eternal Life through Faith in the Blood Sacrifice of the Lord Jesus !
Mike in ILL-nois.... but not for long.

[Gobeyond]

Back to post (Gobeyond) #62.... Using 3F BP in old cartridge rifles..
Yes we do in our house. But I can only write about using Goex Brand. Always remember no "other name brand" BP is the same. Some of the "high end" BP's are hotter in burn rate / pressure.
But in original cartridge rifles we use 3F Goex in a 44 Frank Wesson, a 1876 Winchester 45-60, several 44 WCF 1873 Winchesters, a #2 Ballard in 38 Long and probably a couple more about the same era my thinker does not remember at this hour.
I do not know how Goex fits into the power scale of the other old powders from 120 years + ago. It may have been ranked by true pressure testing a little low ?
Now we are faced with the "new this year" batches of Goex coming down the sales lines. I have not seen any yet. But one day I hope to drive down to Friendship, Indiana and purchase some 2F and 3F to fire up some tests from a modern test rifle and revolver. No idea if the New Goex will be cleaner, hotter or just as it was. But even in the 1600's people figured out how to test one keg from another.

Keep on spreading the Good News of the Love of God for all of us and Eternal Life through Faith in the Blood Sacrifice of the Lord Jesus !
Mike in ILL-nois.... but not for long.

(: Thank ya pal. Those new pressure ratings would be very helpful to bp shooters of the new Goex who want to check it out. It might take awhile to get here. Can’t wait to see some new OE in various grades. Get it and hurry up Mike. Get on it and pas the info on. Smart thinking!

Yes I see that. Not for long. Pray for Israel.