how am I supposed to really evaluate a patch lube? (a patch too, frankly)

[Whiterabbit]

So, I have one of Joe Weists amazing flintlock muzzleloaders. I have a patch that works, but loading is harder than I would like, despite amazing accuracy (what I would call amazing accuracy, anyways).

So I got some materials and lubes, thinking accuracy downrange was the telltale sign.

They all shoot with the same excellent accuracy.

So what other criteria besides ease of loading and accuracy should I be checking? I usually swap between shots (requirement at the monthly shoots anyways) so I don't need something that will let me shoot all day without cleaning...

[Dryball]

If you have a short starter I doubt I would worry about "harder than I would like" loading if accuracy is amazing. As far as lube goes I would want to test the migration of lube from the patch into the powder. A friend and I did this and our conclusion was real mink oil was best (in our tests). I have kept my flinter loaded for over a year with mink oil and ignition and accuracy was the same as if I had loaded it that day. YYMV. Maybe Waksupi will chime in on this.

[triggerhappy243]

I know if the patch comes out shredded or burning.... That is a problem. Should come out pretty much intact.

[Lead Fred]

Stop using petroleum based oil in your barrel.
Wash it out with hot soapy water, then coat with T/C 1000+ bore butter.
Use it only and number 13 cleaner, and them balls will glide on in

There is also a chance since your barrel is band new, the rifling corners are sharp and they can make loading a bear

[rfd]

beginning with a *clean* barrel, and doing a good barrel clean between firings, getting a good fit of the lubed patch and ball is yer goal.

just as with experimenting with centerfire cartridge loads, you will need to experiment with both patch thickness and ball diameter in order to get a patch/ball that's both easy to load and is accurate. the patch lube used is also important.

patches should be of 100% natural based material (cotton, linen, etc), with a reasonably tight weave. it's best to use a prelubed patch strip that's cut at the muzzle so that the patch is uniform around the ball - it's difficult to perfectly center a loose round patch over the muzzle, which will bunch up more patch material to one side of the ball, making for an off balance spin down the tube.

for any given ball diameter, it's best to test out different patch thickness’s, from .010" up to perhaps .020" or larger, but ball diameter is critical part of the ratio fit of patch to ball to rifling. too loose fitting a patched ball will almost always sacrifice accuracy. too tight a patched ball will give ya loading fits and will *demand* that you well clean the tube between shots. a fired patch should not be burned out and should show remnant tracks of the rifling engraving.

in an example, one of my flintlock rifles is a .45 tip curtis that i trialled .445" and .440" of my cast balls and what works best for that rifle and me is a .012" patch and a .440" ball cast from a jeff tanner mould.

how are you lubing the patch? whilst some folks use spit/saliva, which can work reasonably well (but also cause rust if ya leave it in the barrel too long), i prefer either a mutton tallow "grease lube" melted into a patch strip, or a patch strip that's been presoaked with a mixture of ballistol and water (1:6 ratio) where the water evaporates leaving the water soluble oil impregnated into the patch (the material feels dry, but it's well lubed).

cleaning the barrel 'tween *every* shot is, imo, an important key to both easy loading and top accuracy. yer not looking for a spanking clean tube, just one where the majority of the bp residue has been removed and what's left is softened. not cleaning between shots has the strong tendency to bake in the crud from the last shot and that will give ya some serious cleaning fits, difficult loading, and a loss of accuracy.

i use a jagged patch or two that are near wet with dutch's "moose milk" formula to barrel clean the fouling, then a clean dry patch to reasonably dry out the tube, 'tween shots.

after charging the tube, the patch strip is laid over the muzzle, a ball is either thumb pressed or tapped into the patch and down just past the muzzle, the excess patch material is cut off with a small patch knife, and - depending on the rifle and fit of patch to ball to rifling - it may or may not require a short starter. the ball is pushed (not rammed) home 'till the load mark on the ramrod lines up with the barrel muzzle.

all of this assumes yer using real black powder, of a proper granulation for the rifle's caliber, and not that krap phony bp substitute.

[ballistim]

Lots of good advice here already. I've used Teflon coated patch material made of canvas in competition and it worked great, but it requires a smaller ball than I use with pillow-ticking patch material. I've had success from both cut with a patch knife from strips while loading at the barrel, and have had success making my own patch lube with beef tallow, would use sheep tallow if I get a hold of any, Pure Mink Oil works great too. Patches can tell you a lot, you're able to tell if the ball is cutting the patch, burning indicates patch under lubed or lube isn't working.

[rfd]

i get 1# tubs of excellent mutton tallow from dixie gun works. thanx to a head's up from nobade, this stuff is the basis of all my bullet and patch lubes, great stuff indeed!

[ballistim]

i get 1# tubs of excellent mutton tallow from dixie gun works. thanx to a head's up from nobade, this stuff is the basis of all my bullet and patch lubes, great stuff indeed!

Good to know, will check into it.

[rfd]

unlike most other fats/tallows, mutton (sheep) won't go rancid and has an excellent shelf life. besides, it's got that nice lanolin smell! :)

[ballistim]

unlike most other fats/tallows, mutton (sheep) won't go rancid and has an excellent shelf life. besides, it's got that nice lanolin smell! :)

I've heard that before, I keep my beef in old shoe polish tins in the freezer & pull them out when needed as they definitely go rancid, also keep the one can in use refrigerated. A member here who lives in my state shot a bear & offered me some bear grease if I was in his area, would really like to try that also. I bought some mail order years ago and it worked really well as I remember.

[alamogunr]

As I've posted in the past, I got mutton tallow from another source when Dixie didn't have any. Unfortunately, I had to buy way too much. I have several 2# tubs in my freezer. Only one member here wanted some so I have most of what I purchased left. If anyone wants some now, I would have to look up how much I paid and how much it would cost to mail. IIRC, I shipped 2 tubs in a medium FRB. Not being confident that it would be OK, I wrapped it well to prevent it melting. If that is possible.

I used a recipe from another forum to make lube. I use it on felt wads in a cap & ball pistol.

[Maven]

Whiterabbit, There are quite a few patch and lube do's & don'ts, many already mentioned:

Patches
100% cotton material: pillow or mattress ticking, pocket drill, linen (tres $$$), denim, etc.
Thickness: thick enough to allow "easy" starting for hunting loads and a bit tighter (thicker) for bench accuracy. Also, thick enough to remain intact with your heaviest loads.

Lubes
No petroleum-based lubes, or rather use them only if you absolutely must as they don't reduce BP fouling and seem to leave their own hard-to-remove deposits in your bore.

How well do they prevent or at least manage BP fouling. I.e., how many accurate shots do they allow without having to [damp] swab your bore?

Ambient conditions and type of lube: For hunting or field use when temperatures are 32 deg. F or less, a grease lube is better as it won't freeze. It's probably easier to prelube your patching than to do so afield in cold[er] weather. For warmer temps. and/or bench testing, a liquid lube works quite well. Spit works, but so does moose milk, commercial or home made. Btw, I use 1 Ballistol : 6 water and honestly never have to clean between shots.

Solid lubes: Stumpy's Moose Snot & Emmert's (google them) are excellent and easy to "brew" at home. Emmert's is usually used on cast bullets in BP cartridge guns, but it works OK on patches. The usual commercial lubes, e.g., T/C Bore Butter, work well, but can be runny in hot weather. With Stumpy's I can get at least 8 and as many as 15 shots without swabbing, depending on powder charge and relative humidity. Bees wax and olive- or peanut oil concoctions work well too, but I don't know their proportions or have one I can recommend.

Hope this helps, and good luck with your Joe Wiest FL!

[johnson1942]

wash a piece of cotton pillow ticking. dry and iron smooth. make your self a template that is square the same diam as the precut round ones. lay out on the ironed cloth in ink pen the squares useing the template. cut out with a sissiors. lube well with utter balm that you buy at a farm store. dry a day or two infront of a fan. i use a small rubber hammer on top of the bullet starter to tap the ball and patch into the bore. after it is in it will go down easily. square patches were used all the time in the old days and grip the ball better than the round ones. have fun.

[waksupi]

I use pillow ticking as a standard patch in all of my guns. I then find a ball that I can load without a short starter. Unless you shoot benchrest competition, any extra accuracy you may get from a very tight load is negligible.
If you use the thinner store bought patches, save your self some money. Mic the thickness, and go to the fabric store, and buy some muslin of the same thickness. You can buy a yard+ for what you would spend on one package of patches.
Most of those are lubed with bore butter or similar. That is simply beeswax and olive oil. I personally don't like it, because I shoot in cold weather, and it will foul a barrel and make it impossible to load in as few as four shots. I stick with moose milk, and can shoot with the same bore condition and good accuracy all day without swabbing.

[Whiterabbit]

moosemilk as in ballistol and water? I use that occasionally. I also just got some aquacut cutting oil from my local machineshop and soaked some patch material in it to try.

[johnson1942]

to be honest their is a guy that hunts the rural refuges over the line here into s.dak and he uses ballistol mixed with water and swears by it. bead man is right , moose milk or ballistol and water and you can go wrong.

[Maven]

Wr, Yep, my "moose milk" is 1 Ballistol : 6 H20. For freezing weather, I add 1 part 90% isopropyl (rubbing) alcohol to it. Btw, I got a sample of Clean Draw (water soluble machining oil) from Don Diego and diluted it 1 Clean Draw : 10 H20 as per his instructions and fired 11 times before I thought to run a patch down bore even though accuracy hadn't declined and starting/seating my patched RB was unchanged. I needn't have bothered as there was no fouling and certainly no crud ring to speak of. In short, the WSMO you're using will likely work just as well.

[Whiterabbit]

OK, given the cost of machining oil vs ballistol, I will try to qualify the coolant first. I have one patch ribbon with the lube applied and drying in the shop. So far, it seems a little more soapy and a little less oily compared to ballistol and water. Time will tell.

For the record, I shoot all these interchangably in the matches leading up to the aggregate target, but when it counts I will only shoot what I exactly know to shoot right. Maybe that will change with the coolant. So that's why I know these alternatives shoot "just as well". Cause I shoot them in the match with a control for the warmup rounds. But not so yet bench rested where I can confirm POI and true group size compared to the qualified load.

[Maven]

Wr, I forgot to mention one additional liquid patch lube. Dixie Gun Works sold it as "Old Slickum," but it looked and smelled exactly like diluted Murphy's Oil Soap. Easy to make and inexpensive too. Start with 1 MOS : 6 H20 and further dilute to 1 : 10.

[rfd]

actually, there's two blends of "moose milk" - for patch lubing and for fouling and barrel/lock cleaning.

moose milk patch lube is a ratio blend of ballistol and clean tap water. you can experiment with ratios higher and lower than 1:6 (ballistol:water by volume) but 1:6 is a good one. after mixing the ballistol and water, soak yer cloth patch strips (mine are 1.5" x 18") in the milk lube, then lift it out with one hand while two fingers of yer other hand squeegees out the excess lube milk. here's the important part - lay the patch strips down on a flat and LEVEL surface to allow the water part of the milk to evaporate, leaving the water soluble oil impregnated in the patch cloth. the reason the strips need to dry off on a level surface is so that the wet milk doesn't drift off to one end of the strip, which will leave an uneven amount of oil in the patch strip.

there are Many different formulas for moose milk fouling and barrel/lock cleaner, this is what works for me ...

1 part Ballistol
1 part Lestoil or Pinesol
2 parts hydrogen peroxide
20 parts tap water

[johnson1942]

also try a little bit of anti freeze in your guys mixes, it really adds to it as a lube and a protector of the bore.

[waksupi]

also try a little bit of anti freeze in your guys mixes, it really adds to it as a lube and a protector of the bore.

I do use winter blend windshield washing fluid with the soluble oil for cold days below freezing on the range. You need to be cautious with antifreezes, if you blow down the bore after the shot like I do. Don't want to get poisoned.

[johnson1942]

man i never thought of that, another way to kill my self. dont know why im laughing but i am.

[Nobade]

Try RV antifreeze. Lots healthier than the regular car stuff.

-Nobade

[mooman76]

They make pet friendly or non-toxic antifreeze.

[dondiego]

It doesn't taste as good though.

[Boogieman]

I use a mix of NAPA cutting oil [#765-1526] 1.5oz,Murphe's oil soap 1.5oz, and 13oz. water. It works for a patch lub. and for cleaning. And it's cheap. For hunting I mix beeswax & olive oil it works like Wonderlube & my gun doesn't smell like bed time at the old folks home.

[triggerhappy243]

Wonder lube does not smell like bedtime at the old folks home.... I been there. It smells like victory!

[Boogieman]

It smells like pain relief cream to me. At one time a company, can't rember the name, was selling a patch lub that smelled like apples . It was supposed to work just like Wonderlube. WL is good but Besswax & olive oil is cheaper, works just as good,& you can adjust the mix for temp. changes. Also good for lub. on paper patch boolits.

[triggerhappy243]

You mean bengay.

[rfd]

i find it had to beat ballistol for fouling control, cleaning and making "dry" patches.

smells real nice, too.

less filling and tastes great. :-P

[bigted]

just to clarify ... we are talking about the cutting oil or ballistol with water mix and soak the patch material and allow to dry the water content out first ... rite?

so if the water has to evaporate outta the patch cloth ... then maybe a stouter mix of water/oil would be better ... say 1 oil to 2 or 3 water?

[Boogieman]

You mean bengay.
yes I just didn't want this to become a free ad.

[rfd]

just to clarify ... we are talking about the cutting oil or ballistol with water mix and soak the patch material and allow to dry the water content out first ... rite?

so if the water has to evaporate outta the patch cloth ... then maybe a stouter mix of water/oil would be better ... say 1 oil to 2 or 3 water?

correct.

ballistol and napa cutting are both water soluble oils. the ratio of oil to water sets how much oil will remain in the patch material. i prefer 1:6 others more or less oil. like everything else with working up a load, testing is a requirement of sorts. i've tried ratios from 1:4 to 1:8 and 1:6 is best for both my flintlock rifles. i see no need to go to less of an oil cut, as that's just a waste of oil. as always, ymmv - and that's what experimenting is all about.

bears repeating - make sure that the moose milk lube soaked patch material lies LEVEL and flat, so that the oil doesn't soak one part of the material more than another - you want the patch material to have the oil evenly distributed and all that takes is setting it down on a flat leveled surface to "cure".

i will add, these kinda patches are a joy to use.

[bigted]

rfd ... would using some heat in the solution help it soak into the material better? say very low heat in a kettle and soaked material in the kettle for a period of time followed by the stretched flat and allowed to completely dry/water evaporate?

[rfd]

soaks in just fine, no heat required. only takes a few hours at 70f/50h to evaporate the water. i roll up the strips and in they go to the possibles bag. that old LL bean flannel shirt makes some fine 'n' fancy patch strips! :)

http://i.imgur.com/qP3z8Cr.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/W4ZO65E.jpg

[shdwlkr]

patching material- pillow ticking
lube- TC lube or crisco
how to read a patch that has been fired, first you have to find it, second look at it is it torn, burned? if you can look at it and it is all intact and there is sort of an X pattern then it is doing what it was intended to do
powder I use 3f in all my mine .32 -.58 caliber Yes I have the fake stuff also and use it some, like real black the best
anything over .50 caliber I use 10-15% less 3f then what is listed for 2F
caps- CCI mag caps work the best for me
RB- pure lead, almost pure lead and ww

Should be able to do more this year as I hope to be done with college, at my age it just takes to much time to be in college