MH 577/450 Nepalese and BSA rifles

[Idz]

Got a couple of antique rifles from IMA for fun projects. The nepalese had been criticized so much I was curious if it could be made to shoot. Comparing and calculating the actions shows the stresses on my nepal are about 2.5x higher than the BSA. Assuming the nepal was constructed from poorly heat-treated mild steel it still should easily be able to handle 14000psi, 45 LC cartridges. The torque forces on the loading lever also were low enough to be handled even by poor quality steel. Polishing off some spots on the breech block didn't reveal any obvious inclusions so the steel quality wasn't as bad as some reported. The spiral forge welded barrel had a nice shiny bore and showed none of the corrosion one would expect along poorly welded seams. In fact it was quite difficult to even see the spiral welds. The nepal barrel was larger diameter than the BSA so barrel stresses are reduced in the nepal.

The groove diameter slugged about 0.454 on the nepal but was the 'standard' 0.464 on the BSA. Easy to see how the nepal could get a reputation of blowing up if british 'oversize' ammo was used in it. The chamber on the nepal was smaller than the BSA so a 577/450 to 45LC chamber adapter wouldn't fit. I built an adapter from 1018 CRS and adjusted the 45LC rim counterbore to give about 0.004" headspace.
Using QuickLoad I made some light load 45LC 1) soft lead Lee 452-200-RF+5.5 gr Bullseye, 1.550 OAL should give about 7000 psi max and 2) hard cast HSM 250 gr + 6.5 gr W231, 1.570 OAL about 11500 psi max.

I set up a remote firing rig and fired off about 10 rounds of each and then examined the nepal action and found no change. Another dozen rounds from the shoulder and I was quite happy with the nepal rifle.

Neither the 45LC cases or adapter stuck in rifle so pressures were reasonable.

Conclusion: shooting the nepal rifle is doable if you look for signs of poor metallurgy and welding, slug your bore and use correctly sized bullets, stick with cowboy loads in 45LC, and make your own chamber adapter so you can set the headspace.

[JHeath]

The nepalese had been criticized so much I was curious if it could be made to shoot. . . .

Conclusion: shooting the nepal rifle is doable if you look for signs of poor metallurgy and welding, slug your bore and use correctly sized bullets, stick with cowboy loads in 45LC, and make your own chamber adapter so you can set the headspace.


THANK YOU for being one of those shooters who can make a project like this as gratifying as creating a magnum wildcat or building a custom rifle with expensive wood. It's like getting a lesson from watching the unspoiled kid having fun with whatever he's got.

[TheGrimReaper]

Thanks, very interesting indeed.

[Geppetto]

I have a Nepalese Gahendra I've been thinking about relining and turning into a 32-40 because of some pretty substantial pitting on the barrel at the wood line. Any pictures of the finished product or of the build?

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I don't think there is much doubt that some Gahendras are safe and accurate rifles, based almost entirely on the Westley Richards patents. Most criticism of the metallurgy seems to centre on the barrels, which were indeed spiral welded blanks from village workshops. Actions were apparently made in a government armoury, although much was done by hand which would have been done by machine tools in the west. The Martini doesn't depend on any very special steel in the receiver, so a Gahendra action, if it is well-made in mild steel should be quite satisfactory.

Here is the best source I know on the safety of the Gahendra:

http://www.britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/topic/8959/t/More-on-the-Gahendra.html

The only thing I wouldn't accept in full is that Richard considers the action weaker because it is open at the front (below the barrel) and at the rear. If there was a serious failure, this would expose the shooter to danger from shattering wood. But these areas of the receiver don't actually bear the stress of breech pressure, and those which do (the upper part of the sides) seem just as substantial as the Martini's. This danger would arise when flaws in the receiver cause failure.

All I can add is that you really must remove the forend before firing this rifle as a .577/.450. Most of these rifles may have rusted in storage, but look as if they have been well cared for where a soldier could reach them in service. But deep rust pitting under the forend is common. Flawed spiral welds plus another dotted line to tear along in the other direction, add up to too much.

I'd say relining to .32-40, loaded to the original Winchester and Ballard pressures, should be safe if your Gahendra is a sound one. I would rather avoid the .45LC, for its narrow rim isn't well suited to a tilting extractor, which applies an edge rather than a flat surface of steel to brass. It has a twin-legged extractor like the Martini, which must be considered an improvement on the single-leg one of the British-made Westley Richards. But it is still springy.

This picture is the parent Westley-Richards, sometimes referred to as the Improved Martini. In fact, though, the successive Westley Richards and Martini improvements on the Peabody tilting block leapfrogged one another, and Westley Richards can just as easily be considered first. Anyway, I've got mine.



129112

[JHeath]

I don't think there is much doubt that some Gahendras are safe and accurate rifles, based almost entirely on the Westley Richards patents. . . .

. . . This picture is the parent Westley-Richards, sometimes referred to as the Improved Martini. In fact, though, the successive Westley Richards and Martini improvements on the Peabody tilting block leapfrogged one another, and Westley Richards can just as easily be considered first. Anyway, I've got mine.



129112

So . . . where do you stand on shooting a low-numbered Gahendra, with [cough] reduced loads?

[Tackleberry41]

I bought 2 of the Nepalese guns off Sportsmans guide a while back. Said may be missing parts so I figured 2 rifles would get me one functioning one. One was missing the sling, so both work fine. The Nepalese rifles are not original British rifles, but not where near the Kyber pass made stuff. A little rust in places on barrels, but nothing dangerous. Chopped one down to a carbine just because really didnt need 2 rifles.

Chamber specs do vary quite a bit. I have to keep track of my brass so I dont have to work the brass so much, they are murder to FL size in my lee dies. Pulled a few rims off in the learning process. Now I dont Fl size, just the neck with one I made from a 45-70 die. I bought 2 of the McAce 45-70 adapters. They would not chamber, those smaller throats on Nepal guns. Nothing the lathe couldn't fix, but once fired in one rifle wont chamber in the other.

I could only imagine you would get pretty horrible accuracy with 45 colt adapter. No different than what you get in 45/410 chambers, a good 2 inches of free bore before the bullet hits rifling. I like the 45-70 set up as I can load pistol powder, almost comical to fire how quiet it is. I was tempted to buy some longer brass and cut them so they dont have any free bore. Cant say I get great results out of 458 bullets. Havent messed with slugging them, their more of curiosities than anything else.

[Idz]

The nepal rifles slug about 0.454 so an oversize 45LC soft alloy should work pretty well. The Francotte design doesn't handle the bolt load on a cylindrical knuckle like the BSA does. Instead the nepal carries the load on the two ears and dowel pin. The result is the nepal stresses are about 2 1/2 times greater than the BSA.
Before using 577/450 ammo I have to correct the headspace problem on the nepal rifle. I'm thinking of brazing a plate on the front of the bolt then machining it to the correct headspace.
These are fun rifles to play with.

[Idz]

A useful chart for those with nepalese guns. You notice they may use different symbols for the same number. They seem to mark every part with a serial number, even the barrel bands. My block and action numbers don't match the rest of the gun which may be why the headspace is messed up.

129334

[Ballistics in Scotland]

The Gahendra bore dimensions are very inconsistent, but mostly (not, I think, quite always) considerably smaller than the British or Belgian made Martini-Henrys. This has its advantages, in that you can use a cheap off-the-peg bullet mould (insofar as any bullet mould is cheap nowadays), and in at least some of them a smaller chamber neck diameter prevents excessive working of the brass. If your dies size the brass small enough to grip the bullet, but that shouldn't be a problem with paper patching.


While serial numbers are interesting, I don't think they make any difference in safety. The quality of barrel welds and condition of the rifle are what matter. A counsel of perfection would be to have somebody Magnaflux test the barrel and receiver. The metal is temporarily magnetized in a bath of liquid emulsion containing iron powder. The latter sticks visibly wherever a magnetic pole is exposed by a crack or seam, even below the surface.

The Francotte action is something else entirely. As made in Belgium, it is very much like the ordinary Martini-Henry and just as good quality. The difference is that the breechblock locates conventionally in a removable frame, and the frame locates flat surface against flat surface in the receiver. I don't know if the Nepalis bought any from Belgium, but I think at least some were made in Nepal.

My only Gahendra arrived recently, and I haven't got the breechblock and other working parts out yet. The bore is filled with grease at the muzzle (the genuine article.) So it may possibly have a bright bore. But I think the block to receiver contact is just like the Martinis, as I know the Westley Richards does. Some were found with a wooden peg replacing the steel screw, and that would certainly be safe if it had been a Martini. Even Rudyard Kipling gets this wrong, describing in fiction a serious accident caused by firing a Martini with the pin removed. All that should do is enable the block to fall out when you manipulate the lever, not in shooting. Incidentally the pin in the Martini has fooled and frustrated many people by looking like a screw, when in fact it is a bifurcated pin, holding in place by spring tension. In the Gahendra it's a screw.

Brazing a plate to the front of the bore should work, but like shotgun barrels, care should be taken not to heat it beyond the minimum temperature required. Brownells market a rather expensive silver solder in thin ribbons, with a lower melting point than the jeweler's varieties, and this should be ideal for the job.

I've done this for a Martini-Henry which somehow acquired a badly scarred bolt face. I wouldn't try to machine it though. I would file back the old block face by the thickness of your steel sheet, with the barrel partly unscrewed and a case in the chamber. Keep testing it with a feeler gauge from above and below, to make sure you end up with the block face at the right angle to make contact all over the case head. I don't think strong brass like Bertram will have the head expanded at a slight angle when the block face isn't quite right, but brass made from Magtech shotshells would.

[Idz]

I was wondering about a tin-silver solder since there is almost no shear stress on the joint. The stuff Brownells sells (96%Sn,4%Ag) looks like a more expensive, weaker version of Harris Products "Stay-Brite" (95%Sn,5%Ag). While the tensile strength may be 25000 psi the shear strength is about 11000 psi.

[Hooker53]

Makes me want a 45LC adapter for one of mine. Ha. Good info and I agree on all. I have one I'm planning on relining and chambering for 327 Federal. this gun has been shot many times which is in 303 now with an adapter for 7.62 TOK.

[Idz]

Had so much fun with my first Nepal MH that I got another. The new one had a broken action. Bottom of the tumbler broken off and trigger spring broken off. I made a new trigger spring from a piece of pallet strapping steel band and silver soldered a piece of 1/4x1/4 steel keystock onto the broken tumbler. Then I fit the tumbler and got the action working. Upon testing with a primed case I discovered the primer strike was insufficient. After comparing dimensions with my functioning rifle I found that the action frame is used as the trigger stop and the hole they cut in the frame was too large so the trigger was positioned wrong. In other words, my assumption that this was a functioning rifle that had broken was incorrect. This rifle never could have worked! My solution was to Sn/Ag solder a 0.05" shim on the front of the trigger to position it correctly and then re-fit the tumbler. It now can fire a primed case so I can work on the headspace and try it out. These are really fun rifles to restore if you like puzzles!

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Had so much fun with my first Nepal MH that I got another. The new one had a broken action. Bottom of the tumbler broken off and trigger spring broken off. I made a new trigger spring from a piece of pallet strapping steel band and silver soldered a piece of 1/4x1/4 steel keystock onto the broken tumbler. Then I fit the tumbler and got the action working. Upon testing with a primed case I discovered the primer strike was insufficient. After comparing dimensions with my functioning rifle I found that the action frame is used as the trigger stop and the hole they cut in the frame was too large so the trigger was positioned wrong. In other words, my assumption that this was a functioning rifle that had broken was incorrect. This rifle never could have worked! My solution was to Sn/Ag solder a 0.05" shim on the front of the trigger to position it correctly and then re-fit the tumbler. It now can fire a primed case so I can work on the headspace and try it out. These are really fun rifles to restore if you like puzzles!

Parts were hand made, and did vary in dimensions. I think it is more likely that parts substitution had made this rifle unfireable.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Makes me want a 45LC adapter for one of mine. Ha. Good info and I agree on all. I have one I'm planning on relining and chambering for 327 Federal. this gun has been shot many times which is in 303 now with an adapter for 7.62 TOK.

Do you mean you had a Gahendra modified as a .303 and actually firing this cartridge? I don't doubt that some would handle this just as well as the Martini, but it is something to undertake with great care.

Rebarrelling or lining (the .30 Luger liner from Track of the Wolf should be fine, silver soldered to a larger slug for the chamber) should take care of the dubious spiral-wound barrel. The actual load-bearing steel action sides don't seem any more flimsy than in the Martini. But I would want to polish the action sides smooth, and look for signs of seams or inclusions in the metal. Magnaflux testing would be better. The fit of firing-pin in its hole, and any tendency to rebound, could also be a source of danger. The pin must be a close fit, and I don't believe any Gahendras had a pin inserted in the hammer like the Westley Richards, and thus replaced by a thicker or higher or lower one. It might take a new mainspring, or annealing, reshaping and retempering of the original, to make sure that the firing-pin is held firmly into the primer after firing.

[Hooker53]

I was going back together with my 577/450 today and knowticed A new trick I have not seen before. Upon lowering the lever and pulling it back up into place, it won't stay in place on its own. It's getting back presure from the firing pin spring for some reason or other. IV done something different this time. Ha. IV tried rotatating the striker to both settings and it's the same. Doing something wrong here. As anyone else ever had this to happen?

B in S, no. Don't think that is the case here. I believe I have one of the later guns that was changed over to 303. What were they, Mk IV Ver 1? Ha.

Roy
Hooker53