Least corrosive BP substitute?

[FergusonTO35]

I have been considering making the move from Pyrodex RS to something safer for my no longer produced NEF Huntsman. Pyro is cheap, plentiful, works well enough, and is apparently designed to corrode ferrous metals as quickly as possible. My Huntsman is blessed with a surprisingly shiny bore and great accuracy and I would like to keep it that way. After firing it about ten times on Saturday I took it inside my house and about four hours elapsed until I cleaned it. You could already see some color of surface rust starting at the end of the muzzle. A good cleaning took care of that but I really need something with more margin.

I have read good things about 777, some good and not so good things about Blackhorn. Other than Pyro they are the only substitutes available in my usual haunts (real BP has been extinct for quite some time). Which one should I try first? According to Hodgdon 777 produces more velocity and is supposed to clean up with plain water. Can either of these be cleaned the same as smokeless powder? I'm currently lubing my Lee REAL boolits and the bore of my rifle with Bore Butter. Is there something better for 777 or Blackhorn?

[rodwha]

T7 cleans like BP. BH 209 needs smokeless cleaner from what I understand.

T7 uses a percussion cap whereas BH 209 needs a 209 primer, which means you'd need the adaptor.

T7 is cheaper than BH 209.

There's another sub I've read out Black MZ. It seems to be fairly clean but doesn't give the higher velocity that T7 or BH 209 will give.

[M-Tecs]

Blackhorn 209 is cleaned same as smokeless. Not cheap but it works as claimed.

[johnson1942]

pyrodex is only good for poreing in to the garden soil. tripple 7 leaves a very hard crudering in the breech. if your going use a dirty blackpowder sub, just use real black as it is very very accurate and very easy to clean. all my side locks have 209 shotgun primer ignition so i use blackhorn 209 powder. i love it, cant find any thing at all wrong with it. i dont care about the price as it shoots just as accurate as real black and i never ever have to clean between shots. i use dry patches to clean the bore when done shooting then follow them with a couple of oiled ones. again you have to have shot gun primers to ignite 209 powder, other than that it gives me consistant feet per sec. and accracy. it is 15 percent more powerful than real black. i have even used it my 2 - 45/70/s with great success. in my sons custom inline it can get the 250 grain .451 bullet moveing 2200 ft per sec. thats energy.

[FergusonTO35]

Thanks for the advice. My rifle uses a 209 ignition from the factory, it is a different gun than the old percussion H&R Huntsman. Our muzzleloader season ended about a month ago so I should be able to pick up some of each one fairly cheap. Any favored boolit lubes for these powders? Bore Butter works great with Pyro and as far as I can tell it is protecting the bore, however that stuff has gotten downright spendy lately. It costs more than any smokeless lube I know of.

[Rick Hodges]

I use 777 in my inline's. Yeah, it leaves a crud ring that you have to use a damp patch with and "exotic" cleaning fluid... i.e. water or spit about every 3-5 rounds. I keep reading about how awful it is, but it is nowhere near as dirty as holy black nor pyro. It isn't hard to clean either...a wet patch worked up and down as you go takes it out in about 20 seconds. I have not used blackhorn 209, it may work good but not good enough at twice the price of 777...around here they want $40+ for 10 oz. of the stuff.

[FergusonTO35]

Ouch, $40.00. At that price an actual smokeless conversion barrel would quickly pay for itself. That is what I really want but a different type of powder is more in line with my budget right now. Where is this crud ring I keep reading about? Pyro likes to build up crud on my breech plug pretty quickly although it doesn't seem to affect anything and is easily cleaned off.

[NSB]

Yes, Blackhorn209 is expensive if you compare it to other smokeless powders. However, you still get a lot of shots out of a 10oz bottle. It burns very, very clean and is more energetic than other black powder subs so you use less of it for the same result. FPS variation is very low and you can shoot it all day without cleaning at all. When you do clean, you can use any cleaner you use with smokeless. How many shots do you shoot a year? Do the math and see how much "more" it will cost you. It's chump change. Now, do you want all the aggravation that goes along with a crud ring or dirty barrel. Do you like cleaning every shot or every other shot? Blackhorn209 has proven to me to be the best black powder sub out there by far. My best groups out of several guns has been with this black powder sub. I can't see any reason to use anything else except smokeless in a muzzle loader if you want something "better". FYI, my primary muzzle loader at this time is a Savage ML2 but I've tried BH209 in that and it shot amazingly well with it.

[johnson1942]

a good lube for cast boolits is utter balm, you can get a can of it at farm stores. also if your shooting paperpatch dont use any lube at all, that is best for paperpatch. utter balm is good on your own skin also.

[OverMax]

I don't think there is a substitute B/P made that doesn't require its occasional (http://click.thesaurus.com/click/nn1ov4?clkord=6&clkpage=the&clksite=thes&clkld=0&clkdest=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thesaurus.com%2Fbrowse%2F customary)cleaning. As far as what other powders other than Pyrodex RS are acceptable. "What ever is cheapest and found locally." _Triple 777 & BH-209 are not in either category as far as I know. Perhaps American Pioneer Powder is a candidate to fulfill your need. 1-1/3 lbs per container for 20.00 bucks that is a pretty good deal when compared to the others marketed. i.e. more for less.

[Nobade]

Yep, that APP (or Shockey's Gold) isn't the most powerful stuff but it's fairly easy to clean up, uses smokeless bullet lube, and is fairly noncorrosive. Lot of CAS shooters swear by it.

-Nobade

[39duck]

777 has been my goto since I quit using Goex. It's acccurate and a little faster grain for grain than black powder. A spit patch will cut through the crud ring in a flash. After the 3rd shot plan on running a patch through it if your sighting your rifle. If you load 100 grains it's really handy using the pellets. Killed a lot of deer with 777 and a 250 gr bullet.

[triggerhappy243]

Andy, you back from the shot show?

[triggerhappy243]

Ferguson, i use pyrodex in all my cap locks, but clean between every shot..... So what. My best accuracy can be had by cleaning between each shot. After all, do you hunt with a dirty barrel or a clean one. And as far as your "rust" goes... There is a solution that hoppes puts out that i use to neutralize the corrosive effects of pyro. I will rough clean out with it before i leave the range and then do a thorough cleaning as soon as i get home. Btw............ My rifles are 33 years old.

[Hellgate]

&&& or APP both are less corrosive than BP/Pyro. Both subs are hard on brass though. If I were to choose I'd go with T777 for shooting since you have 209 shotgun priming. Both are a water cleanup.

[FergusonTO35]

Very good info here, thanks! Now, where does the 777 crud ring form? If I encounter the Blackhorn and I can afford it at the time I'll pick some up, it's still cheaper than shooting Pyro with sabots. Life is too short to worry about the added expense if it means a sweet shooting rifle!

[Nobade]

Andy, you back from the shot show?

Yep. We managed to survive Lost Wages again this year! It's nice to be back to work so I can relax a bit and get back to building rifles.

-Nobade

[FergusonTO35]

Anybody try Alliant Black MZ yet?

[rodwha]

From what I understand the "crud ring" happens with the larger powder charges associated with inline types, and it forms near the breech.

I've used it plenty of times in my Lyman's Deerstalker firing a 70 grn charge of the 3F variant and I get no crud ring, and I've heard the same from other cap lock shooters. These days I mostly shoot 3F Olde Eynsford though as it's much cheaper and does the same thing.

[FergusonTO35]

I never shoot more than 80 grains Pyro in my Huntsman 'cause thats what it likes. I've never observed any kind of insurmountable fouling, indeed accuracy and ease of loading stays pretty consistent to at least a dozen shots. I don't shoot heavy charges in any of my guns and only use lead boolits in the front-stuffers so maybe I'll never encounter it.

[rsrocket1]

Anybody try Alliant Black MZ yet?

I've gone through over 2 pounds of it this past year. I use it because it is about 1/2 the price of BH209 which makes a difference when you go out and shoot 20 shots each session. It meters terribly and is about as smokey as black powder but it cleans up very easily. The granules are about the size of cat litter and are irregular. The way to get consistent drops is to loosely pour the powder into the measure, then scrape off the top without shaking the powder. You must run both sides of a dry patch down the barrel between each shot. It makes the bullet go down a little easier, but you can actually shoot lots of rounds without swabbing. The problem is your bullets will fly about 3 feet off @ 100 yards with each shot if you don't swab.
It really helps to use an overpowder wad/card or even a crumpled and packed paper napkin under a bare conical. You don't need one with a sabot, but you must be sure the bullet is really seated firmly against the "boulders".

For plain old range plinking, it works fine but if the shots need to count, I would use BH209. I have gone 20 shots in a session without cleaning the barrel and accuracy was fine. No overpowder cards, just a sabot, Fed 209A or CCI209M. You must ensure a tight fit with the primer and firing pin face so that all the flame goes into the powder and no blow by occurs. If you have soot around the breechplug, you are getting blow by. I use a very small washer at the bottom of my primer hole which is just enough for a compression fit on the primer without letting the primer face contact the firing pin face. Over 100 shots with BH209 and only one misfire on the very first day I shot the gun. That was without the washer.

BH209 makes about as much smoke as shooting a .308 rifle.

The picture on the left is with BlackMZ and 250g REAL's at 50 yards, the one on the right was a comparison between BlackMZ and BH209 using sabots. I believe the big difference in accuracy is the consistency of BH209.

[oldred]

To me BH209 is about as close to smokeless as it gets for a BP sub, just my opinion but basically it seems to be just a bulky smokeless that's safe for MLs. I was able to shoot all day without swabbing and had no problems, cleanup was the same as with a smokeless powder and the stuff seems to have little in the way of corrosive characteristics, as an experiment I left an old CVA ML and a rather junky C&B revolver uncleaned for weeks to see what would happen and it did no damage at all. A thin greyish film did develop but that wiped right off with no sign of rust, I did get some corrosion around the nipples but I assume that was from the caps.

I speak of it in past tense because as good as it is it's just too pricey for me, sure there's about an equal volume in that 10 OZ vs a pound of other powders but shot for shot it's just plain expensive. Not a problem for a few hunting rounds but shooting a lot just get's too costly, at least it seems that way to me

[Rick Hodges]

The "crud ring" builds in the first couple of inches above the charge, where it sets in the barrel. Don't try to take it out with one solid stroke but saw the rod up and down through it. A wet patch with water or spit about every 3-5 shots takes care of it. I shoot loose 777 110gr. under a saboted 300 gr. Hornady. It can make loading difficult and may lead to not getting the sabot and bullet fully seated if you don't take care of it.
Cleaning after shooting is a piece of cake...water and patches, or the premoistened cleaning patches that they sell.

[LeadBrain]

Black MZ works best for me when I weigh it. I Weigh desired volume and then weigh all charges the same weight. It is a close relative of APP powder (I have read that APP manufactures it.) It is a premium BP sub with easy clean up. I like it and APP in my percussion fired ML's, and BH209 in the 209 fired ML's. But I will shoot 777 and Pyrodex from time to time. I watch for bargains here and there and pick up a bottle of whatever. Each has its plus's and Minus's and no two seem to be exactly alike.

[rfd]

i gotta ask ... aside from it being the only powder available to purchase, why choose a bp sub over the real deal?

i don't get it at all - why even mess with that sub stuff if real black powder is available?

[oldred]

i gotta ask ... aside from it being the only powder available to purchase, why choose a bp sub over the real deal?

i don't get it at all - why even mess with that sub stuff if real black powder is available?


I have asked a similar question a couple of times about cartridge loading with subs but actually there are a couple of reasons for using one of them in a ML. The first is of course availability, these phony BP concoctions are sold just about everywhere and are as close as the nearest WalMart plus they are relatively cheap. BP is almost impossible to get in some locations, for me it's 70 miles away and would be nearly $30 a pound when I got there ($28.99). Sure it can be ordered right to your door delivered by UPS but only if you buy several pounds at a time, a minimum of 25 LBs to get a good price and from some places a minimum of 25 period! Then some such as T7 simply offer better performance such as higher velocities with a lot less fowling than real BP, for some of us that doesn't matter but to others it does matter -a LOT and there's nothing wrong with that! Those reasons alone explain the popularity of these subs but by far the biggest reason is that it's so easy to buy, if real BP was sitting on the shelf next to the T7, Pryodex, etc at WalMart then I can guarantee real BP would be a lot more popular. Lot's of BP shooters will scoff at the idea that BP is hard to get and for the bulk shooter it may not be a problem but it's a fact that for most folks who shoot only a pound or so a year it's simply a PITA to obtain real BP.

[rfd]

the most i've ever paid for black powder (goex) is $24.60/1 pound, $123/5 pounds delivered (and grades can be mixed).

with muzzle loaders and bpcr rifles, 5# doesn't last that long. a tad over 100 shots per pound for a 65 grain charge.

better yet is getting 25 pounds for $400/delivered total - now that's a good deal @ $16/pound final cost. most of us have no problem dropping $500 and lots more on a firearm, but some seem to leave out the cost of actually caring and feeding those engines.

so, it sounds like it comes down to those folks who only need a pound or so, tops. their only hope is to chip in for a local group buy. something that should be good to do via online forums.

[johnson1942]

blackpowder is very very accurate and easy to use. my black horn 209 dealer is 15 miles away. my tests show that it is as accurate as real black. at my age ive wipe enough bores between shots, ive done enough things that i dont want to do anymore. im not craping out im just make my life simpler.

[oldred]

Yes for some the group buy works great, that's the way I get my BP (there are six of us splitting the order) but even that is a real problem for some. I would venture to guess that the vast majority of shooters only buy a pound or so at a time and given the ease of availability plus the added attributes of less fowling and higher velocity (less fowling either real or only perceived!) then I suppose using the subs becomes a bit more understandable and they are going to remain popular. The bottom line is even to a lot of folks who might otherwise desire the real stuff the difficulty in obtaining it is just not worth it to them, it is to me and I use the real thing but I have to admit it does get to be a hassle sometimes.

[FergusonTO35]

My shooting and hunting budget is pretty tight. I just cannot buy enough powder at one time to make hazmat fees or extra gas money + 3 hours round trip worthwhile, especially since I already have an excellent supply of all the others I use. I'm already shooting an inline with primers so why not take advantage of contemporary powders? I do use nothing but boolits and open sights though.

If I'm going to go through the trouble of getting blackpowder I want to shoot it in a sidelock. This is in my plans, just not any time soon.

[OverMax]

Crude ring as I know it comes from using (hot) 209s. Thus the reason for: http://www.ballisticproducts.com/images/030WWSML209T7_sm.jpg (http://www.ballisticproducts.com/Winchester-209-Triple-7-Muzzleloading-Primer-100_box/productinfo/030WWSML209T7/)

[39duck]

I use 777 primers and 777 pellets and still get a crud ring that gets built up to the point of needing to run a spit patch down the barrel by the 3rd shot.

[FergusonTO35]

I wonder if the crud ring comes from the higher pressure of today's "magnum" loads, and is made worse by pellets and tight fitting sabots? I wouldn't think that a mild charge with a soft boolit could generate the kind of pressure necessary to create any kind of hard fouling.

[rodwha]

I've used it plenty of times with a 70 grn charge of 3F with a .490 PRB that's fairly tight and don't see it, though I wipe every third shot. I'm using Rem #10 caps.

[Grapeshot]

Years ago I bought a can of the then new Pyrodex RS. Shot it out of my T/C Hawken a lot. I also used it in my SAA .45 Colt. I was taught by my Drill Sgt to clean my weapon after every shooting session. I also had a history teacher that taught me about Black Powder shooting and he also stressed clean after shooting. Add lubricating after cleaning. Never had a problem with Pyrodex since I an also OCD about tending to my smoke poles.

[OverMax]

The infamous crud ring is caused by hot burning powders fired up with hot primers. Sugar based powders like T7 and American pioneer will show such behavior. BH-209 is not sugar based. Don't about Alliance MZ stuff yet. Frankly if I have to have fouling in my barrel I would rather have it spread out over the entire barrels bore stem to stern (which true B/P exhibits) than have fouling forming in a crusty ring just at the powder charges usual height edge. Which by the way can hamper a barrels proper tampering of its next projectile down to breech if left unchecked. Funny how a life long Traditional shooter can answer questions concerning you inline admirers. "Will wonders ever cease"

[fouronesix]

I think that's exactly it- burns hotter and at higher pressure thus "baking" the residue to the bore walls. And it's not limited to T7 or a couple of other "sugar" fueled subs. That super hard dry fouling in the bore was one of the three main reasons I abandoned Pyrodex after my "dark age experimental stage" trying about 1/2 lb of it back just after it was introduced in 1976-7. Still have that partial cardboard can of Pyrodex. :)

[triggerhappy243]

if one scrubs and wipes between shots, the crud ring is not an issue.

[rsrocket1]

The infamous crud ring is caused by hot burning powders fired up with hot primers. Sugar based powders like T7 and American pioneer will show such behavior.

Don't about Alliance MZ stuff yet. Frankly if I have to have fouling in my barrel I would rather have it spread out over the entire barrels bore stem to stern (which true B/P exhibits) than have fouling forming in a crusty ring just at the powder charges usual height edge.

From all I've heard, Alliant BlackMZ is Jim Shockey Gold from APP. Wouldn't surprise me, but I'm not inclined to go look for JSG APP unless it were easily available and cheaper.

I don't get a "crud ring" from BlackMZ, but it does build up white "crusty crystals" in the breech area. It may very well be sugar, but I ain't going to taste it :)

rfd, we can't get BP here very easily behind the "cannabis curtain". On top of that, the nanny's out here in CA think any BP over 1 pound is dangerous and against the law whereas you folks in NJ can have up to 50 pounds at your residence without any problems. I guess the laws of physics and chemistry are different when you live in a fault zone with so many crack pots running the asylum.

[triggerhappy243]

QUOTE: rfd, we can't get BP here very easily behind the "cannabis curtain". On top of that, the nanny's out here in CA think any BP over 1 pound is dangerous and against the law whereas you folks in NJ can have up to 50 pounds at your residence without any problems. I guess the laws of physics and chemistry are different when you live in a fault zone with so many crack pots running the asylum.

NOW THAT IS FUNNY....

[marshall623]

I don't know about the least , but the worst was lost when that part of the plant that made it blew up ( from what I was told ) and that was Goex Clear Shot in the white can . That stuff is garbage soaks up moisture like a sponge , looks like Pyro fouling unless you leave it overnight then things will grow in the barrel . I still have a 1/2 can used for plinking and immediate cleaning , that's because it doesn't shoot bad at all with Maxi balls or patched RB's. I have a new can of Pyro which was free , so was the clear shot . I've shot 1 box of T7 pellets they shot great , but drew moister and where no good after a couple of years in the gun cabinet . It left the crud ring and like some said and damp patch and chip at it , and its gone in a few strokes . ( 1 solid stroke with a tight fitting patch will make it not fun for a little bit [smilie=b: . I would try T7 again but only in loose powder . Thats my $0.02

[Motor]

I use 777 in my inline's. Yeah, it leaves a crud ring that you have to use a damp patch with and "exotic" cleaning fluid... i.e. water or spit about every 3-5 rounds. I keep reading about how awful it is, but it is nowhere near as dirty as holy black nor pyro. It isn't hard to clean either...a wet patch worked up and down as you go takes it out in about 20 seconds. I have not used blackhorn 209, it may work good but not good enough at twice the price of 777...around here they want $40+ for 10 oz. of the stuff.

I quoted this post because I'm lazy and this is what I would have posted anyway.

Rick is dead on !!!!

I still use Pyrodex too. It's great for inexpensive practice shootin. Even better when you find it on clearance.

BTW: Most of the 777 I have I got on clearance too. I just love those after season sales. :)

OP, I use Lee A-Lox with my 250gr REAL. I know some say it dosen't do well in muzzleloaders but maybe that's with black powder. I've had good results with it but the loads I use it for do not exceed 70gr Pyrodex RS in 50cal. rifle.

Motor

[lobogunleather]

My only experience with BP firearms has been with a TC Hawken .50 about 35 years ago, followed by some antique guns that I have added to my collection. I am still shooting these:

1. Colt 1860 Army revolver, mfg'd 1862, bore about 50% with some pitting.
2. Remington New Army revolver, mfg'd 1863, bore about 60% with some pitting.
3. Remington New Army revolver, mfg'd 1864, bore about 50% with some pitting.
4. Pennsylvania-style half-stock percussion rifle, Golcher lock, .41 caliber, 29" barrel (octagon to round), bore about 80% with very minor visible decay.

I have always tried to stick with good black powder in Fffg granulation for all of these. Starting about 5 years ago I have found it next to impossible to find black powder anywhere, at any price, leading me to try the Pyrodex P. As advertised, charges thrown by volume run just about 10% below BP in actual weight. 25-grain measure for the revolvers throws 22 grains. 40-grain measure for the rifle throws 35 grains. Performs just as I would expect from Fffg. Reliable ignition, complete burn, and the usual build up of residue and fouling (revolvers can usually provide 40 or 50 shots before fouling starts to affect functioning, rifle becomes difficult to seat a patched ball after about 12 shots). I use no lubricant for the revolver balls. Rifle patches are lubed with vegetable oil (cooking oil, right out of the bottle in the kitchen) which does a good job of keeping bore fouling soft and easy to clean up.

These are all antiques with some historical significance, so I am careful about maintaining and preserving them. My cleaning routine is done in two parts. First, immediately after use at the range or in the field, I remove the nipples then swab the bore, chambers, etc, with a dripping-wet patch of GI surplus bore cleaner (1960's vintage, bought years ago for $1 per quart) and let the piece sit for 15 minutes or so. Then 5 or 6 clean dry patches to remove the solvent and crud, pipe cleaners for the nipple ports and other recesses. Wipe down with an oily rag. Then the piece can be cased and taken home. I have found that this allows a day or two easily before a thorough disassembly and traditional soap and boiling water cleaning.

US GI ammunition continued using corrosive primers well into the 1960's, and even longer in the larger calibers like .50 BMG. The US military has probably spent more time and effort in dealing with firearms maintenance and effective cleaning products than all the commercial sources combined. The GI bore cleaning solutions were specifically developed for good maintenance under field conditions, including removal of corrosive residue and preserving exposed steel parts.

The surplus GI bore cleaner stinks almost as badly as black powder smoke and fouling. But I will continue to rely on the stuff to maintain my prized antique guns, and I'm sure it will do just as well with modern BP guns.