Lee 230gr 2r OAL

[Pablo 5959]

Hello all,

I bought a new Kimber 1911 for Christmas.
Using the Lee mold, 230gr, 2r.

The chamber is so tight I have to set OAL at 1.187 to pass the plunk test.
Any longer then that and the Ogive hits the lands and will not fully go into battery.

My question is three parts.

1, Has anyone had this issue with Kimber and the 2r Lee?

2, Will the Kimber have problems cycling a TC or SWC?

3, And most importantly, as long as I am NOT compressing the powder.
is it safe for the OAL to be this short?

Thanks
Pablo

[jcren]

Don't have experience with that bullet, but I seat my 230 tc pretty short and can tell you it will increase pressures. Do not attempt a medium-hot load with a shorter oal than the load data you are using. Use the starting load or 10% less if it is an energetic power like BE or titegroup and work up gradually watching for overpressure and unusual recoil. Hope someone with more direct experience chimes in, but that is the quick and dirty of it.

[fredj338]

Oal is always gun & bullet specific. I load the 228-1r bullet to 1.240"-1.250", fits all my 45s, even my short throated XD. Loading target pressure ammo, seating deeper doesn't affect things much. When loading at the top end, everything matters. So reducing the charge by 10% & working up is prudent.
Fwiw, compression of powder in itself is not a bad thing, just depends on the powder. Slow & bulky powders like blue dot, not a big deal.

[35remington]

Please show us a picture of a seated bullet at that length needed to pass the fitment test.

Your recorded OAL is ridiculously short and well below what the gun is supposed to be using. At that OAL the bullet shoulder is well below the case mouth, which is just plain wrong. No other way to say it.

How about that picture? Something ain't right as there's no bearing surface forward of the case mouth, or even flush with it.

Given you're legitimately 80 thou below standard, the loads will need to be reduced. As it is, you need to change something. The cartridge as it is now loaded makes no sense at all.

[newton]

I started loading this boolit myself. They are fantastic in a 1911. But your OAL has me confused myself. My 1911 has absolutely little to no leade in it. I could not get the Lee 230 TC boolit to seat any longer than 1.190". But with the 230 2R, I can seat out to 2.270" with ease.

Me thinks you might be actually having a bulge issue, but I could be completely wrong. Usually deeper seating will result in more bulge.

Personally, if I were you, I would slug the barrel first to see exactly what dimensions your dealing with. Then measure the boolit nose. The widest part on the boolits nose my Lee mold throws is just under .425. That's well under most bore diameters in 1911's. Could be your mold is throwing them abnormally large, or maybe you have a mismarked mold and its really the 1R?

As far as safe, I can tell you my experience is that with the 230 TC boolit I was seating to 1.170", using the Lyman cast bullet load data, and doing just fine. So it really depends on what your data/load is.

[runfiverun]

I wouldn't slug the barrel I'd pull it out and have a throat cut into it.

this is something we are going to see more and more.
the chamber stops and rifling begins.
it works fine with jacketed bullets, and it's cheaper and faster to make at the factory.
we are either going to have to adapt new mold designs or we are going to have to learn to use a throating reamer.

I have been looking for a target type 9mm pistol for about a year and a half now and pretty much everything new has this same throat design. err non throat design I guess I should say..

[newton]

I wouldn't slug the barrel I'd pull it out and have a throat cut into it.

this is something we are going to see more and more.
the chamber stops and rifling begins.
it works fine with jacketed bullets, and it's cheaper and faster to make at the factory.
we are either going to have to adapt new mold designs or we are going to have to learn to use a throating reamer.

I have been looking for a target type 9mm pistol for about a year and a half now and pretty much everything new has this same throat design. err non throat design I guess I should say..

But there is still something off with his gun if it truly is the Lee 230-2R. My gun has no leade, I choose not to ream it, and the 230-2R fit just like factory ammo would. Something just does not add up. I cannot see, barring him having the absolute shortest chamber and rifling that has zero transition leade from chamber, how the Lee 230-2R would not work. He could send it off to be reamed, or do it himself, and still have issues loading.

This is my chamber/leade.

128596

[Love Life]

Did you remove the flare from the case mouth?

[1911KY]

At that depth I would bet you are going to have some issues with crimping. All of mine were loaded at 1.25" and that is just shy of breaking the top lube groove. If you go just over that groove, I don't think you could crimp that properly.

http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p628/jamesearnett/Mobile%20Uploads/a2f77738-1a03-4e4c-b234-ce1c0013d036_zpsec2475b5.jpg?t=1422219665

http://i1159.photobucket.com/albums/p628/jamesearnett/Mobile%20Uploads/6595efb6-d660-405e-aa70-bb79202e82cf_zps42094946.jpg?t=1422219892

[35remington]

Yes.....as mentioned, it should be possible to seat the 230-2R to the 1.260" vicinity even in a throatless barrel with no leade taper as the front band is starting to be below the case mouth and that which protrudes is not at full diameter.

I have and shoot this bullet. The OAL "needing" to be 1.187" is very questionable. In any event, that OAL is extremely wrong.

[JohnH]

Good Grief. The Lee 230 2R... Notice the "2R" is a boolit designed for the 45 COLT not the 45ACP I have the same issue with that boolit in a Rock Island GI model, have to seat the boolit to 1.190 for it to seat. The issue is with the radius of the nose, it is too short for a full length loading. The boolit was not designed for the 45 ACP, it is meant to be a lighter weight boolit, yet heavier than 200's and have the traditional round nose and length of the older 250 round nose the 45 Colt is normally loaded with. This keeps the case volume from getting huge and giving ignition trouble with small charges of fast powders, the love of cowboy action shooters, the bane of ballisticians.

The Lee 230 1R is the boolit one wants for the 45 ACP, it is reasonably true to form and seats to the proper OAL and feeds like a dream from every 1911 and a couple of Glocks I've run it through. The tumble lube boolit will hold enough of any decent traditional lube to prevent leading, as well as work well with the various liquid alox lubes. Most people I know who have tried the Lee 230 2R did so because of wanting the correct lube groove design for traditional lubes, but tumble lube 230 1R boolit holding enough lube. Leave the 230 2R for the 45 Colt, use the 230 1R TL for your 1911, you won't be disappointed. As a side note, with starting charges the 230 2R feeds perfectly from my neighbors Taurus 1911, my Rock Island jams every other round. Good schutzen!

PS, My "Good Grief" comment was aimed at the amount of verbage spent and not one comment about the boolit and it's proper use, perhaps I assumed most know but don't, I certainly didn't aim it at the OP.

As to the question of "no leade" with a straight wall pistol cartridge which uses the case mouth for headspacing, like the 45 ACP, there ill be no "leade" the cse mouth must have an abrupt shoulder to stop agaist for the headspace to be controlled, else the extractor will be holding the case on firing, not good.

[Pablo 5959]

Thank you John H,
this is starting to make since.

Now that I cast 500 of them over the week end.

Ok, next question. Will the pressures increase that much if the powder is not compressed?

edit: I just pulled the mold and checked it...

It's the Lee .452, 228, 1R.

My bad.

[jcren]

Like has been stated, start with a "starting" load of mellow powder or cut a frisky powder by 10% and work up a load that works for you and your gun.

[35remington]

The 230-2Ris specifically designed for the 45 ACP. The 2R stands for the desired ball duplicating ogive. It's not a 45 Colt bullet.

The bullet you speak of as the 45 Colt bullet is listed as the 228-1R. It is not "true" for the ACP. It seats more deeply. You have the two bullets switched around as to identity.

You are also confusing chamber stop shoulder with leade. Two different animals. A pistol has both.

[35remington]

Compressed powder loads are not the norm for 45 ACP loads and are rare. If such is happening to any great degree you might want to reconsider powder suitability.

If you're speaking of bullet seating depth any seating depth deeper than standard requires you to reduce loads. Always.

[JohnH]

The 230-2Ris specifically designed for the 45 ACP. The 2R stands for the desired ball duplicating ogive. It's not a 45 Colt bullet.

The bullet you speak of as the 45 Colt bullet is listed as the 228-1R. It is not "true" for the ACP. It seats more deeply. You have the two bullets switched around as to identity.



You are also confusing chamber stop shoulder with leade. Two different animals. A pistol has both.

I am confused on the boolit, you are correct, my bad, I would like to point up a couple things though... The 230 2R has a step down of diameter which standard ball does not have. If the chamber will pass a plunk test with standard FMJ hardball, the 230 2R seated to the middle of the top driving band should as well. hat caught my attention most was the seating depth he stated, this is the same seating depth, within .003 of where my use of the 228 1R seats to pass the plunk test. I've never had the 2R TL fail to pluck, chamber, or otherwise not work in a 45 ACP chamber when seated to the middle of the top driving band. This should run right at 2.270-2.280. Ihave two molds of this boolit, they have slightly different nose configurations, yet both seat to this and feed perfectly.

Can the OP post a picture of the boolit itself as I wonder this, take as true what he says the box says 230-2R, was there a packing mistake and he's got a 228 1R as the seating depth is screwy. The driving bands would be below the case mouth for the boolit to have that OAL, that should make bells go off big time.

[newton]

Boy I had my head scratching there for a min....

If the OP really is using the 2R, I highly believe it is what Love Life indicated. Too little of a crimp and it will not seat all the way. But at the same time, if he can get it to seat that deep then the crimp might not be an issue at all.

I think the molds are indeed mixed up. Just sounds too much like they are.

[Pablo 5959]

I am confused on the boolit, you are correct, my bad, I would like to point up a couple things though... The 230 2R has a step down of diameter which standard ball does not have. If the chamber will pass a plunk test with standard FMJ hardball, the 230 2R seated to the middle of the top driving band should as well. hat caught my attention most was the seating depth he stated, this is the same seating depth, within .003 of where my use of the 228 1R seats to pass the plunk test. I've never had the 2R TL fail to pluck, chamber, or otherwise not work in a 45 ACP chamber when seated to the middle of the top driving band. This should run right at 2.270-2.280. Ihave two molds of this boolit, they have slightly different nose configurations, yet both seat to this and feed perfectly.

Can the OP post a picture of the boolit itself as I wonder this, take as true what he says the box says 230-2R, was there a packing mistake and he's got a 228 1R as the seating depth is screwy. The driving bands would be below the case mouth for the boolit to have that OAL, that should make bells go off big time.

Sorry guys,
in post #12 I said I went out and checked the mold, it's the .452, 228, 1R

I went back to my confirmation order and that's the one I ordered. The web site said it was for the .45auto.
http://i1321.photobucket.com/albums/u543/Pablo5959/imagejpg2_zps74ef9c31.jpg (http://s1321.photobucket.com/user/Pablo5959/media/imagejpg2_zps74ef9c31.jpg.html)

OK fire up the flame thrower.
Pablo

[newton]

Yep, makes complete sense now. Sorry. Get the 2R, you'll be tickled pink with it. It's worth $20 you'll spend on it.

[prs]

I kinda wish I had been drink'n through all this. LOL.

prs

[JohnH]

No need for a flame thrower, it's easy to get confused. The problem is the boolit. As newton says, get the 230-2R-TL and you'll be happy as a lark.

[35remington]

Now that we have the correct nomenclature we can also confirm you have no throat and probably an abrupt leade, like newton had. Unmodified further your 1911 will be happiest with the 230-2R bullet. Other types will give more or less difficulty depending upon the selections you make and just how short your throat really is. Not saying they won't work, just that they won't work as well as if things were as they should be.

FWIW....Max OAL for the 45 ACP is 1.275." Correct for this bullet given my iteration is 1.260-1.270" depending upon just how abrupt your leade is. If it's cut just flat stupidly you won't have much bearing surface at all out of the case. This is best remedied if you are so inclined.

The deep seating needed of the 228-1R means reduce your powder charge.

[newton]

If you were wanting to keep your mold, and use it for the time being, I would do this.

The boolit length of the 1R is .628" and the TC I have shot is .620" in length. This equates to about the same amount of powder space underneath the boolits if you seat to what you said you were seating. The Lyman lists a seating depth of 1.170" for the TC boolit.

I have no doubt you could use the data for the TC with the 1R boolit. Here is a snapshot of the Lyman tested data. I would not go over the max charge, and I would stay longer than 1.178". I can tell you I was shooting the TC boolit with a middle of the road charge and my gun was loving it.

128657

[Love Life]

I have a few 1911 pistols and other guns chambered in 45 acp. Only one will accept the 452-228-1R at nominal length for 230 gr ball. All the others require the bullet to be deep seated. I wll look in my notes. It's in accurate bullet, but must be seated quite deep.

[35remington]

Any pistol that will accept the 228-1R loaded to standard ball OAL has a really long throat. This is not the norm.

[gwpercle]

I have a Taurus 455 revolver, it will chamber and shoot factory J-word ammo. It will not fully chamber rounds loaded with cast boolits sized .452. Size the same boolit .451 and it chambers.
Try sizing your boolits to .451 and see if they chamber. Mine just had a minimum chamber, bullet diameter kept them from chambering not OAL.
Gary

[fredj338]

Thank you John H,
this is starting to make since.

Now that I cast 500 of them over the week end.

Ok, next question. Will the pressures increase that much if the powder is not compressed?

edit: I just pulled the mold and checked it...

It's the Lee .452, 228, 1R.

My bad.
Pressures go up the deeper the bullet is seated. If your loads are midrange or below, seating deeper causes few issues with pressures, especially in the low pressure 45acp.

[fredj338]

I have a few 1911 pistols and other guns chambered in 45 acp. Only one will accept the 452-228-1R at nominal length for 230 gr ball. All the others require the bullet to be deep seated. I wll look in my notes. It's in accurate bullet, but must be seated quite deep.

As I noted, I use the 228-1R, seat it 1.240"-1.250", fits several diff 45ac; 1911s & XD. The XD are notoriously short throated. Every gun is diff with regards to OAL, even guns from the same manuf.

[fredj338]

I have a Taurus 455 revolver, it will chamber and shoot factory J-word ammo. It will not fully chamber rounds loaded with cast boolits sized .452. Size the same boolit .451 and it chambers.
Try sizing your boolits to .451 and see if they chamber. Mine just had a minimum chamber, bullet diameter kept them from chambering not OAL.
Gary

This will be brass dependent. RP brass is quite thin, should work with 0.452" bullets. I have one 1911 w/ min spec Barsto match bbl, all I shoot are 0.452" bullets.

[Pablo 5959]

If you were wanting to keep your mold, and use it for the time being, I would do this.

The boolit length of the 1R is .628" and the TC I have shot is .620" in length. This equates to about the same amount of powder space underneath the boolits if you seat to what you said you were seating. The Lyman lists a seating depth of 1.170" for the TC boolit.

I have no doubt you could use the data for the TC with the 1R boolit. Here is a snapshot of the Lyman tested data. I would not go over the max charge, and I would stay longer than 1.178". I can tell you I was shooting the TC boolit with a middle of the road charge and my gun was loving it.

128657

Sorry I haven't been able to respond lately. (I had to work a couple of 14 hour days with 3 hours road time each)

I would like to thank everyone for the advice and patience with this tread.

Newton,
This info from Lyman gives me a great starting point.
Ill be working up some loads this weekend.

Also the new 2r mold will be here before then.

Pablo

[Animal]

I wrestled with seating depths for the 452-228-1r for a while. Eventually, I also settled on 1.245 as a good length. I worked up loads at 1.190, 1.225 then found 1.245 worked very nicely as long as they were sized .452 and tapered at .468. For some reason, accuracy just wasn't available until I found the 1.245 sweet spot... now I love it. BTW, RIA M1911 a1 Govt.