Effect of Lemi-Shine in Wet Tumbling

[Bayou52]

I've been wet tumbling with a Thumlers Model B for over 2 years. I've used different detergent agents but I've always used 1/4 TSP of Lemi-Shine per batch. Well, on my second batch today, in my haste, I forgot the Lemi-Shine. Otherwise, everything was the same as the first batch, including tumbling time.


The results were remarkable in that the second batch without the Lemi-Shine, although clean, did not have that high-brassy and sparkling appearance. In fact, the second batch appeared quite dull next to the Lemi-Shine batch.


It's a matter of appearance and personal choice in the result.

The batch on the left was with the Lemi-Shine.


Bayou52

[chsparkman]

I've encountered the same. Forget the Lemi-Shine, forget the shine.

[John Allen]

I like my brass shiny. I always add the lemi shine.

[prs]

I use a very similar set-up as yours. I do not deprime first and use a full tsp of the LemiShine, no SS pins, and a full tsp of Ultra Dawn. I find that this gets the insides very clean and even the primer pockets are nearly clean even primers left in. I don't care that much about shiny, although it does help in finding the empties at the range.

prs

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

I never bought the rotary tumbler or the steel pins. I just use the Lemi-shine (citric acid particles) in hot water (increases the activity of the acid), then rinse, then dry, then tumble with a stand tumbler. Comes out just like your picture on the left side.

['74 sharps]

Cut your Lemishine cost in half with buying pure citric acid available on Amazon or in some retail stores. The MSDS - the government mandated Material Safety Data Sheet lists the ingredients of LS as 60-100% "trade secret" and another item as 1-5% "trade secret".

[gloob]

Acidic water dissolves the tarnish. The tarnish is nothing more than metal oxides. This is how acids dissolve metal. There must be an oxidating agent to oxidize the surface of the metal (or simply regular water and air and a lot of time), and the acid then dissolves the oxidized surface layer, exposing fresh metal to continue the cycle. In the case of tumbling brass, you are just removing the oxide layer with acid, and no oxidizing agent. (If you put lemishine and hydrogen peroxide in your tumbler, you could dissolve your cases away!)

The "polish" or smoothness of the finish will be the same in either case. The color is different, because tarnish is darker.

Also be aware that if low enough in pH, your wash water can dissolve lead oxides from the primer compound. You might want to look up the solubility tables for lead oxide vs copper oxides. You don't want to overdo it. Ionized/dissolved lead oxide has a significant absorption rate through the skin. This is what makes lead oxide much more hazardous than elemental lead. Elemental lead, like untarnished brass, can't significantly be dissolved in water, no matter how acidic. Likewise, lead oxide in neutral pH water is not a direct hazard.

Personally, I tumble brass until it gets the clean and slightly dark look, but stop well short of the bright and yellow look. I use neutral pH water to clean my brass, and I don't mind a little bit of tarnish. That's just good protection, like the patina on a knife or the blue on a barrel. It prevents fingerprints from showing up after you handle the brass.

To me, that batch on the right is in a state of perfection. Brand new brass is not there, yet. :)

[Sticky]

When I first started wet tumbling, I didn't have any Lemishine nearby, so I got some Finish dishwasher rinse agent, added that to the dawn and ran that way til I used it up. I suppose my brass looked more like yours on the right, but I recently got some LS, as I used up the Finish, so next time around I'll know for sure!

Oh, I deprime first, gets the primer pockets cleaner. All of my no LS'd brass has worked beautifully. ;)

http://i166.photobucket.com/albums/u107/IGluIt4U/bang/IMG_0155800x600_zpsffbf4db8.jpg

[MtGun44]

Lemi-shine has citric acid which reverses the oxidation on the surface,
converting copper and zinc oxides back to metallic copper and zinc. This
is why it shines better.

Bill

[gloob]

Lemi-shine has citric acid which reverses the oxidation on the surface,
converting copper and zinc oxides back to metallic copper and zinc. This
is why it shines better.
It doesn't reverse the oxidation. The metal oxides ionize in acidic solution, dissolving away. That brass goes down the drain with the washwater.

[dikman]

Lemi-Shine is citric acid. Might have a smidgin of something else added, but it's pretty irrelevant. A chap on another forum (a chemist) got curious so carried out a chemical analysis of it and posted his results as he went. His readings were virtually identical to citric acid. The LS people sort of said he was wrong (but without actually saying it) which they would, of course.

[DaveInFloweryBranchGA]

At the strength citric acid (a mild acid to start with) is being used in this application and the time involved, the amount of brass affected is negligible to start with (a molecule or two's thickness). It's enough to remove the surface molecule's tarnish and that's about it in most cases. If you're doing much more than that, you're using too much citric acid, not enough water and keeping the brass in the liquid for too long.

A case of a little is good and more is NOT "better." In any case, not structurally or functionally harmful to the brass.

[LUBEDUDE]

Maybe there's a reason they call it Lemi - "SHINE".:kidding:

[gloob]

A case of a little is good and more is NOT "better." In any case, not structurally or functionally harmful to the brass.
Sure, I agree that the amount of brass removed is negligible. And dry tumbling, which is what I do, shines the brass the same way, by removing a little bit of brass and metal oxides, only it does this mechanically. Just pointing out that this is a one-way process. There's no "reversing" of the tarnish, involved. I am not suggesting that leaving the tarnish on will increase lifespan. It's for two other practical reasons. It leaves a protective finish that is still going to look much more neat and even in a month or 10 years. Brightly shined brass is going to tarnish, eventually. And it will mostly likely occur unevenly; it will definitely occur in splotches if the brass is handled without gloves or gets wet at some point. Tarnish that has been developed and maintained by moderate tumbling is very uniform. Also, if you dry tumble, removing the tarnish takes longer and clogs up your media with the brass particles, reducing the lifespan of the media, unnecessarily.

If you enjoy the bright yellow look, then there's little reason to change your ways. OP was curious. Now he knows why. Probably with more detail than he cared for. :)

[Bonz]

I was hooked instantly when I saw how clean the inside of the cases get by wet tumbling with SS pins, Dawn dish soap and Lemishine. Bayou52 got me started on the ArmorAll Ultra Shine Wash & Wax for soap which leaves that fine coat of wax on the brass to keep it from tarnishing. Still not recovered enough to handle the 60 pound tumbler from my commercial unit so I bought the Frankford Arsenal rotary tumbler off of Amazon. Really does a nice job on 8 pounds of brass per load. Paid $900 for the commercial that washes 16 pounds of brass per load and $170 for the Frankford Arsenal rotary tumbler that washes 8 pounds of brass. Just a shame that the Frankford Arsenal rotary tumbler wasn't around when I decided to buy the commercial unit, else I would have 2 or 3 of the Frankford Arsenal rotary tumblers.

[Bayou52]

Hi, Bonz -

Those "FARTS" are really becoming popular!

Bayou52

[bedbugbilly]

Quite the difference between the 2 batches!

[rodsvet]

Just got a new FART this morning. $160 from Amazon. I did one load of 1,000 357Sig with the Dawn an Lemi Shine. Six quarts of water and five pounds of pins. I ran it for three hours while I was out to lunch. Unbelievable!! You can't tell it from new brass. The pins are a bitch to work with, but I didn't have the FA magnet. I toweled the brass after separating the pins in a Dillon CM500 with a home made lid. I put the brass in a large rectangular cake pan and used a Harbor Freight heat gun ($9) and stirred them with a large spoon and then spread them on a beach towel to cool. A little more work that corn cob, but what a difference. So pretty that I don't want to scratch them by loading them. I sized, deprimed, and flared the necks prior to tumbling. The unit worked flawlessly and seems well built for coming from China. It has a one year warranty.

[Gillie Dog]

Just got a new FART this morning. $160 from Amazon. I did one load of 1,000 357Sig with the Dawn an Lemi Shine. Six quarts of water and five pounds of pins. I ran it for three hours while I was out to lunch. Unbelievable!! You can't tell it from new brass. The pins are a bitch to work with, but I didn't have the FA magnet. I toweled the brass after separating the pins in a Dillon CM500 with a home made lid. I put the brass in a large rectangular cake pan and used a Harbor Freight heat gun ($9) and stirred them with a large spoon and then spread them on a beach towel to cool. A little more work that corn cob, but what a difference. So pretty that I don't want to scratch them by loading them. I sized, deprimed, and flared the necks prior to tumbling. The unit worked flawlessly and seems well built for coming from China. It has a one year warranty.

Try a test with that cool new unit. Run it 1 hour and see what results are and maybe use hot tap water when you fill it. Then try 30 minutes with hot tap water and see if it has as good or acceptable results. The answer to the comparison/testing might surprise you.

Good luck

GD

[Bayou52]

The pins are a bitch to work with, but I didn't have the FA magnet. I toweled the brass after separating the pins in a Dillon CM500 with a home made lid. I put the brass in a large rectangular cake pan and used a Harbor Freight heat gun ($9) and stirred them with a large spoon and then spread them on a beach towel to cool.

Hi, rodsvet -

You can save youself a lot of work and time by using a media separator to separate the pins from the brass. Like the one here:

http://www.stainlesstumblingmedia.com/media-separator-deluxe.html

I couldn't imagine SS wet tumbling without one.

Congrats on that new FART! You're now officially hooked on SS wet tumbling - there's no looking back now!

Bayou52

[rodsvet]

GD, I will cut the time down on pistol brass. I think you are correct that 3 hours is a little overkill. I did use hot water too. Bayou52, I have a Dillon separator with a leak proof lid so I can spin them fast or slow and not lose pins. I probably spent more time being anal bout the first load than I needed to. You are right, I am hooked!! Rod

[Bonz]

Hi, rodsvet -

You can save youself a lot of work and time by using a media separator to separate the pins from the brass. Like the one here:

http://www.stainlesstumblingmedia.com/media-separator-deluxe.html

I couldn't imagine SS wet tumbling without one.

Congrats on that new FART! You're now officially hooked on SS wet tumbling - there's no looking back now!

Bayou52

+1 on the media separator, would not be fun to wet tumble brass without one...

[Kuffar]

I was thinking about a media separator, after my daughter bought me a wet tumbler. I had to run a batch of brass through the new tumbler. Hmmm, no media separator. But, a $1.00 mesh trashcan, from Dollar Tree, and a 5 gallon bucket, work just fine.

[Drew P]

I was thinking about a media separator, after my daughter bought me a wet tumbler. I had to run a batch of brass through the new tumbler. Hmmm, no media separator. But, a $1.00 mesh trashcan, from Dollar Tree, and a 5 gallon bucket, work just fine.
I was doing fine with with the pins but I never felt totally comfortable with the “angels share”. This is the number of pins which are not accounted for after each batch of tumbling. Basically, there will always be a chance of a few pins making it into the loaded round which, will reduc case volume, etc. I wasn’t too hung up on that, but decided one day to try cases without any pins and I’m very satisfied but the results. Basically all the pins do is clean the insides of the cases which I don’t really care about. The outsides look great. Just food for thought on a 5 yr old thread.

[popper]

I use the lemishine as it makes our hard water work better. Don't have a 'separator' as such, pour off excess water, then dump all into plastic pan. Pull out the cases by shaking handful into another pan (or towel) to dry. Once dry the pins come out easily. Find a few stray pins, magnet picks them right up.

[Conditor22]

I like the Lyman Products Turbo Case/Media Separator, gets 99.9% of the pins out and a lot of the water.

I use citric acid (practically the same as Lemi Shine but a lot cheaper

I also have a Frankford Arsenal Media Transfer Magnet for Picking up 304 Stainless Steel Media While Reloading but haven't needed to use it.

[1hole]

I've encountered the same. Forget the Lemi-Shine, forget the shine.

Amen. New cases don't glitter in the sun.

[1hole]

I was thinking about a media separator, after my daughter bought me a wet tumbler. I had to run a batch of brass through the new tumbler. Hmmm, no media separator. But, a $1.00 mesh trashcan, from Dollar Tree, and a 5 gallon bucket, work just fine.

You've found my system!

[mrbigsteel]

I usually use Lemishine. Shiny brass makes me feel good. Must be how my wife feels when she goes shopping for shoes. :)

My process: Brass + Warm Water + SS Pins + Lemishine. Tumble for 30 mins. Separate pins with media separator. Dry brass on a towel in the sun.

[flyingmonkey35]

I just use citric acid. You can get it in the canning section of any store right now and it works amazing.



Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[doulos]

Ive used just plain old lemon juice from the bottle. The brass comes out new looking. 2-3 capfuls.

[la5676]

I used to buy citric acid in 50# bags for spray water treatment on the farm. It brings our high pH water down to a level that help most chemicals, specimally glyphosate, work better. High pH water makes some chems less viable. Soft water is better for many things it seems.[smilie=l:

[LaPoint]

I use a fabric mesh paint strainer stretched over the mouth of the 5 gallon bucket my Frankford Arsenal media seperator/tumbler is mounted on. It catches the pins that fall out of the tumbler and keeps them out of the water in the bottom of the bucket. I have to turn them slowly or I will spray the pins all over my reloading room. I also use a FA magnet to pick up those that mysteriously end up on the floor.

[Syntax Error]

My personal mix for lemi-shine in a wet tumbler is one 9mm cap worth per cycle with one tablespoon of dawn dish soap and I get pretty good results. Too much citric acid means that the brass gets dull after drying pretty quickly, so this is one of those cases where a little goes a long way.

[Dancing Bear]

I was hooked instantly when I saw how clean the inside of the cases get by wet tumbling with SS pins, Dawn dish soap and Lemishine. Bayou52 got me started on the ArmorAll Ultra Shine Wash & Wax for soap which leaves that fine coat of wax on the brass to keep it from tarnishing. Still not recovered enough to handle the 60 pound tumbler from my commercial unit so I bought the Frankford Arsenal rotary tumbler off of Amazon. Really does a nice job on 8 pounds of brass per load. Paid $900 for the commercial that washes 16 pounds of brass per load and $170 for the Frankford Arsenal rotary tumbler that washes 8 pounds of brass. Just a shame that the Frankford Arsenal rotary tumbler wasn't around when I decided to buy the commercial unit, else I would have 2 or 3 of the Frankford Arsenal rotary tumblers.

That's what I use along with Guntap's cleaner (came with the ss pins). Along with protecting that shine the ArmorAll wax reduces the resistense when sizing pistol cases. Will probably just buy citric acid when I run out of the cleaner.

[JimB..]

I’m almost out of Lemi-shine and I’m thinking I might just go without for a while. As pretty as the like-new brass is, I’m developing a preference for the bronze look.

As an aside, RIP Bonz.

[Kosh75287]

I gotta say, BOTH of those brass batches look very nice, to me. I wouldn't hesitate to reload and then use either batch.
When I reload ammo, I SHOOT it, I don't sell it. I'm FAR less concerned with appearance than performance. That said, I HAVE use Lemi-shine on very weathered brass, when I was concerned about whether the round(s) would properly articulate through (usually) automatic feeding mechanisms.


Must be how my wife feels when she goes shopping for shoes. (Laughing myself silly!)