Light Black Powder Load for the 43 Spanish?

[brstevns]

Well the 43 Spanish RB is new to me. Can a light charge of Black Powder be used in it? Is space between powder and bullet dangerous?

[marvelshooter]

Everything I have read says that any air space in a black powder cartridge load is a bad thing. I don't know why but for some reason it acts like an obstruction. You need to fill the space with extra wads or lube or both to be safe.

[enfield]

Don't leave a space, at the very least it will work very poorly, or it could be worse ?. it is kind of tricky trying to light load a bottleneck black powder round with any kind of filler.

[martinibelgian]

2 things here - with BP, it usually is a good idea to use full charges or something close to it - that's what it was made for, and if the rifle is in decent condition, it will have no issues digesting those loads. If the condition isn't good enough, it shouldn't be shot - period.

And contrary to what you can read o nthe internet, BP can be loaded with airspace - I do it all the time. BUT that doesn't mean you can just drop in a pinch of the stuff and expect it to work. I keep to a fill ratio of at least 75-80%.
How do I know? why do I even do it? Well, if you use a caseful in a 577-450 Martini, you'll be at about 110grs of powder: That HURTS.
OTOH, 85 grains (the normal military load) will work and work well, despite leaving an airspace. And stuffing something like granulated filler in a BN case, down below the neck, is asking for trouble - case stretching, even separation. A RB doesn't really have a good gas control system when something happens... I'd use a load that will fill the space below the bullet, uncompressed, and use Fg powder.

[trap4570]

I have good luck loading 3/4 of the case with 1f powder and using a filler to complete the load.

[Lead pot]

When I was a young Lad about 15? don't remember for sure maybe 14. I ordered a .43 Spanish out of the back pages of the NRA Rifleman Magazine. Well my skinny light frame took a beating shooting my new old rifle :) so I did just what your thinking about doing.
Well it made shooting it a pleasure and it still had the smoke that the old Cowboys guns made on the little 8" round TV tube had, but one day I could not extract the fired case and I noticed a bulge in front of the action. I also did it once with a front stuffer by not getting the ball seated on the powder. About 20 years ago I got a hang fire shooting the .45-3-1/4 and the primer must have pushed the bullet out of the case a short way before the powder went off and that rung the chamber. I suspect the wad did not move ahead with the bullet and that air gap caused the hydraulic pressure that did the damage.
Like what was said above, a bottle necked blk powder cartridge should not be loaded with a filler or have a wad on top of the short loaded case or a wad stack below the case neck shoulder. It's a potential for a problem.
If recoil is a problem, get a smaller caliber.

[brstevns]

Then I would be better off with something like 28 gr imr 4198 or 10 - 12 gr Unique under a 300 gr, bullet for a light load? I would just forget about a light Black Powder load.

[Lead pot]

That could give you a detonation and you would be worse off

[JSnover]

It may not be exactly the same thing but I shot hundreds of 350gr cast boolits over 10 grains of Unique in my 45-70 and 28-30 grains of 4198 with no trouble at all. No wad, no filler. It's a common plinking/target load. Mild report, mild recoil.

[John Boy]

Everything I have read says that any air space in a black powder cartridge load is a bad thing.
[B][SIZE=3]Dutch Bill On ... 'Air Space in BP Rounds http://www.theopenrange.net/forum/index.php?topic=6128.msg45976#msg45976

For those that know, Bill Knight (Dutch Bill) is probably the most authoritative person on the subject of black powder

[Lead pot]

It may not be exactly the same thing but I shot hundreds of 350gr cast boolits over 10 grains of Unique in my 45-70 and 28-30 grains of 4198 with no trouble at all. No wad, no filler. It's a common plinking/target load. Mild report, mild recoil.

One night we were sitting around a campfire at a match talking about this subject. And his response was almost exactly the same as yours.
The next morning his Wife just about lost her hand when this happen....There was a lot of speculations on what caused it but It could not have been a double charge.

http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/IMG_0768.jpg (http://s704.photobucket.com/user/Kurtalt/media/IMG_0768.jpg.html)

[brstevns]

I have the second edition of the Lee Reloading Manual. It list a 27gr imr 4198, 300 gr lead bullet load for the 43 Spanish. it says to use dipper 1.9 which really only throws 24gr of 4198. I was going by this and also what I have read about Unique as a safe load?

[JSnover]

One night we were sitting around a campfire at a match talking about this subject. And his response was almost exactly the same as yours.
The next morning his Wife just about lost her hand when this happen....There was a lot of speculations on what caused it but It could not have been a double charge.

Well, it's a shame that happened and I'm glad she wasn't more severely injured but I personally knew three other shooters using the same loads without incident. My charges were weighed and charged cases were visually inspected before the boolits were set. Loaded cartridges were contained in a properly marked container and were fired at the range the next morning. Part of my shooting sequence was to tip the barrel up to orient the powder before aiming (some said this was not necessary but I felt it improved consistency). We probably sent about 1500 rounds down range that summer, between the four of us. One Rolling Block, one Pedersoli Sharps, can't recall the other two rifles.
It is as safe or as dangerous as crossing the street. All depends on how you do it.

[rfd]

the upshot of all this is that bpcr loading is really best safely accomplished with at least a full up load. if recoil is an issue, either go to smokeless or a smaller caliber.

[JSnover]

Shoot Larry Gibson a PM. He has probably forgotten more than I know about fillers, air spaces, light loads with black or smokeless, etc.

[Don McDowell]

Shoot Larry Gibson a PM. He has probably forgotten more than I know about fillers, air spaces, light loads with black or smokeless, etc.

I'm leary of some of the info provided by folks that have made a "livin" with a lot of internet posts, but nothing much to be seen out in the real world.
Rick Jamison who used to write for Shooting Times and a number of other gun magazines did a series of articles several years ago using Oehler 43 systems, and found that fillers used with many different powders caused some weird little pressure spikes... How much of a weird little pressure spike does it take to reduce a 100+ year old gun to flying shards of shrapnel?
If there's published pressure tested smokeless loads for a given cartridge, then by all means go for it, but follow the recipe. When it comes to black the rules have been fairly simple for the last 3-400 years, keep the bullet and the powder in firm contact... I've never quite figured out what is so hard for some folks to understand about that..

[JSnover]

With black, I agree. Leave no space. In a straight case, light loads are fairly simple and can be made using fillers.
My posts on this thread were specific to the OP second question about two smokeless loads with which I have experience in a similar (though not identical) cartridge.

[Lead pot]

I remember reading in one of my old reloading manuals or maybe it was the gun digest. It said that "it is just as dangerous under loading a cartridge as it was over loading one."

[Don McDowell]

experience in a similar (though not identical) cartridge

And that right there is where the problem has a real potential to get out of hand. You were speaking of straight walled cartridges, the OP is talking about a bottlenecked case, even with black the same charge of powder in a bottle neck and a straight case, the bottleneck gets the higher velocity. That higher velocity comes from more pressure generated by the powder gases being pushed thru the bottleneck itself....

[JSnover]

The OP also found published 43 Spanish data for both powders and weights in his Lee manual. Take it up with him. Or with Lee. They make a living off that stuff.

[swheeler]

The OP also found published 43 Spanish data for both powders and weights in his Lee manual. Take it up with him. Or with Lee. They make a living off that stuff.

I wonder who Lee "mined" this data from?

[brstevns]

Alright, Like I said the IMR 4198 load is listed in the Lee Manual the Unique Load was found by going to many gun related forums. I do not want to start any fights. Just looking for some help.

[Larry Gibson]

I've not made a "livin" with a lot of "internet posts" as I get paid nothing for what I post. I have made some decent spending change doing R&D for several cast bullet, powder and partridge manufacturers and distributors though. I have done considerable testing of numerous cartridges with various loads and components in 35 different test barrels with the Oehler M43. I respect all the work that Rick Jamison did but understand I am not in competition with him. I report what I find; no more and no less. I am not aware of anything I have found with my measurements that differ from those Mr. Jamison found. I have not disagreed with any of his interpretation of the data he found either.

I agree that some fillers can cause "some weird little pressure spikes" but not all fillers cause those. I've also observed similar pressure spikes with different powders, especially those powders that are inappropriate for the cartridge and/or what is attempted to achieve. That is not a condemnation of those different powders, just a condemnation of the inappropriate use. I consider some fillers inappropriate for use and some uses of any filler inappropriate also.

"That higher velocity comes from more pressure generated by the powder gases being pushed thru the bottleneck itself...."

Not quite correct; the bottleneck results in a higher gas velocity and a longer time pressure curve not an increase in pressure. That is usually expressed or made a comparison by use of the expansion ratio. The 43 Mauser has a higher expansion ration than the 45-70 for example which is why it gives the higher velocity given equal bullet weight and powder charge.

Larry Gibson

[fouronesix]

I was going by this and also what I have read about Unique as a safe load?

Unique is a relatively fast pistol powder. That means pressures will spike under heavy bullets at low velocities with very, very small increases in powder charge. Unique is the type of powder I wouldn't even consider in an original 43 Span RB. The more universally accepted powders for this type application of keeping velocities thus pressures similar to BP are 4759 and 5744.

The book- Shooting The .43 Spanish Rolling Block by Croft Barker is another source of info you might consider.

[swheeler]

Cartridges of the World has data for 4198 and 3031 with Lyman439186 in smokeless