Help with .357 Mag please

[Jim..47]

My biggest concern is what size should I size the cast bullets to? I'm using a Lyman 2 hole 358-156 mold. I confess the bullets don't look that great and they aren't concentric. They filled the mold out I thought. I checked the mead temp once and it was around 750 I believe. Most are not frosted and kind of shiny, but I use straight wheel weight lead, (for pistol bullets)

Of the books I have they all state to size them at .357, but my Lee sizer die is a .358. The bullet dimensions are from .356 to 359 one bullet, in other words they are not round. I'm guessing if I added some tin it would help fill out the mold better?

Also I use my own bullet lube: pure bees wax, red and tacky grease, little STP and mineral oil. I'm not real happy with the lube but I keep improving it. We don't eat cheese so I can't get the red shell on a block of cheese. The lube seems to be sufficient as I have no leading, but its real messy and in my opinion not hard enough. I use the pan lube method and my own home made cookie cutter out of a golf club handle.

Yes I've read all the stickies and not new here, just don't post much. Thanks for your help in advance. Sorry about how this post may look, something wrong with the coding and I don't know how to fix that either. :-(

[Bzcraig]

If you're saying your mold temp was 750, that is a problem. If you're saying the pot temp was 750 a little hot but not a problem. It sounds like the mold is not up to casting temp which would account for all your problems. Straight wheel weight lead will make good boolits in the absence of added tin though a bit more helps with longer boolits and driving bands. If you think you're doing everything right as outlined in all that you've read then you have a bad mold.

[Le Loup Solitaire]

For .357 mag the minimum diameter should be/has to be nothing less than .357 but .358 is better. Some people use .359. If you add some tin usually 1-2% it will give you an increase in bullet diameter..probably what you need. Check the Terracorp formula (and tables)...used to be available thru Saeco. The addition of tin also improves the "pourability" of the alloy and you will get sharper (and harder) bullets. Straight wheel weight metal is ok, but the tin will improve it. One usually doesn't need more than the 1-2% to get good casts. Beeswax and vaseline makes a workable bullet lube although the vaseline can get too soft in summer temps and even run. I have been using the old NRA-50/50 with 2138 Alox and beeswax for years in several calibers including 357 and have had no leading or other problems...although there re a lot of concoctions that work well too. Do some reading...there is lot of material right here in cast pics, etc. Pan lube method is ok, but a bit slower than a lubrisizer. Bullets should be concentric...old saying goes,"good bullets come from a good mold to start with", so perhaps a little lapping of the mold will improve things otherwise consider selling the 156 and upgrading to another brand if you can. LLS

[roberts1]

For bullet sizing in a revolver they just need to go thru the front of the cylinder with light finger pressure. There is no need to go any larger because they will be swaged down to the cylinder size once you pull the trigger and smaller may cause leading. I use .358 for my sp101 and lube with 45-45-10 for good accuracy and zero lead. Some practice may help your mould issue. Keeping things at consistent temps is helpful. I use 50% ww and 50% pure lead with some tin for my hand guns but I am not shooting at max velocities.

[runfiverun]

the red shell on cheese is just wax. [paraffin wax]
for pain lubing you want to use bees-wax anyway, the paraffin is just too brittle without adding a mineral oil which then just makes the lube too slippery.
I'd just go with the 358 sizer and shoot some before I even worried about trying something else.

[CHeatermk3]

Pushing your out-of-round castings thru the Lee die should result in round boolits, no?

If you bought your Lee sizing die new it should have had a squeeze bottle of Lee liquid alox in with the die. This stuff looks nasty but works very well and is simple as pie to use--just put 50 or so boolits in an empty margerine tub(or similar plastic container--e.g.cool whip) and about 1/2 teaspoon of the LLA and swirl around for about 20 seconds, then pour them out on a sheet of waxed paper and let them dry. When dry, run thru your sizing die and load 'em up.

[GhostHawk]

If you are casting good boolits at .358 I probably wouldn't size them at all.

Mine slip right into a .38 special or .357 mag brass.

I'm using a Lee .358 158 Tumble Lube design. I do size them in a .357 lee sizer to get them down to .356 for loading in 9mm cases.

Lube I'm using Ben's new miracle working liquid lube. Being 40% Johnson's liquid lube (One step) and 60 % alox.

I get all the alox out of that bottle I can, since that bottle is 4 fl I measure 6 fl of Liquid wax, and use it to rinse the bottle twice.

I'm just using a Ragu jar but any sealable bottle or jar should work fine. I have my eye on a near empty Ketchup container. :)

So far everyone who has followed the recipe has had good luck. If you use too much it will take a LONG time to dry, ie sticky for a week.
So just a thin film overall. Start with a teaspoon on 100 boolits and work from there.

[robg]

i only size gas check boolits ,plain base just lube.do a comparison to see if sizing makes any difference

[JSnover]

I'm with the mold temp guys. Give your mold more time to pre-heat and don't let it cool between pours.
Although your pot temp is a bit high it won't be a problem if it is stable. Are you adding cold lead partway through the session, or running the pot almost empty? I never let mine get less than half full. I pre-heat ingots before adding them and take a short break to let the temp stabilize after adding lead.

[44man]

the red shell on cheese is just wax. [paraffin wax]
for pain lubing you want to use bees-wax anyway, the paraffin is just too brittle without adding a mineral oil which then just makes the lube too slippery.
I'd just go with the 358 sizer and shoot some before I even worried about trying something else.
I agree. Too hot of a mold though will make boolits more out of round. The cavity opposite the parting line will get smaller. I pre heat molds to 500*. Once you reach frosty boolits, they will be the smallest and most out of round. Tin does nothing for that.
Do not make the lube harder or slippery, make some Felix lube.
I don't like Alox or a mix but it will work at lower velocities.
I don't size much with any boolit because they cast near throat size but I see where a boolit will barely touch the die at the parting line, does no harm. I actually use the Lee dies to remove excess lube. You want to talk about a MESS! I stuff Felix in the grooves with my fingers and remove excess with the Lee.
My little dog is always under my seat so I can turn a boolit into a Chia pet by dropping one, peel the hair off and you will NOT get it off your fingers! :bigsmyl2::bigsmyl2:

[44man]

We have argued the too hot mold thing for years but I am correct in that block expansion is out of whack, it is NOT a round hole in a chunk of metal. Once you reach no wrinkles and have nice shiny boolits filled out, adjust your cadence of casting to stay there.
Do NOT make the mold hotter. 750* for a mold is too hot, My lead is 725* to750* but not the mold.
I get my molds hot and drop the cherry back in and cut more metal out quickly so as not to get the cherry hot and get almost perfectly round boolits. Molds are cut cold so when you get them hot, uneven expansion shows up. There is no way to avoid that until mold blocks are cut HOT.
Let the arguments begin!

[Hickok]

I never get a cast boolit that is perfectly round, as dropped, others better at it than I am might. C.E. Harris states that as long as a boolit is less than 1% of the boolit diameter out of round, it should be alright.

I agree with fellows, keep trying to improve your casts, and in the mean time, shoot some of those boolits, they may do real good. I have always sized .358" in my Smith .357 mags and it has worked fine for me. Since you are pan lubing, I wouldn't even worry about sizing, just lube and load'em up.

You state you have no leading, so you are on the right track.

[Jim..47]

First of all, I want to thank you all for replying. My internet was down for a couple weeks, and to tell the truth I forgot about this thread. (OLD MAN'S BRAIN FART I GUESS) I appreciate ALL your replies.



If you're saying your mold temp was 750, that is a problem. If you're saying the pot temp was 750 a little hot but not a problem. It sounds like the mold is not up to casting temp which would account for all your problems. Straight wheel weight lead will make good boolits in the absence of added tin though a bit more helps with longer boolits and driving bands. If you think you're doing everything right as outlined in all that you've read then you have a bad mold.


Yeah, I was measuring the pot temp, and I know the mold was up to temp as I warm it up by floating in the post and throw away bullets until they drop full and look good.

When I mold some more I am going to add tin as you suggested. How would I know if the mold was bad, its a Lyman and un-damaged?



For .357 mag the minimum diameter should be/has to be nothing less than .357 but .358 is better. Some people use .359. If you add some tin usually 1-2% it will give you an increase in bullet diameter..probably what you need. Check the Terracorp formula (and tables)...used to be available thru Saeco. The addition of tin also improves the "pourability" of the alloy and you will get sharper (and harder) bullets. Straight wheel weight metal is ok, but the tin will improve it. One usually doesn't need more than the 1-2% to get good casts. Beeswax and vaseline makes a workable bullet lube although the vaseline can get too soft in summer temps and even run. I have been using the old NRA-50/50 with 2138 Alox and beeswax for years in several calibers including 357 and have had no leading or other problems...although there re a lot of concoctions that work well too. Do some reading...there is lot of material right here in cast pics, etc. Pan lube method is ok, but a bit slower than a lubrisizer. Bullets should be concentric...old saying goes,"good bullets come from a good mold to start with", so perhaps a little lapping of the mold will improve things otherwise consider selling the 156 and upgrading to another brand if you can. LLS


I will be adding more tin from now on. I'll have to research the Terracorp thing. I'll also try lapping the mold. I'm assuming this is the same as Lee-menting?





For bullet sizing in a revolver they just need to go thru the front of the cylinder with light finger pressure. There is no need to go any larger because they will be swaged down to the cylinder size once you pull the trigger and smaller may cause leading. I use .358 for my sp101 and lube with 45-45-10 for good accuracy and zero lead. Some practice may help your mould issue. Keeping things at consistent temps is helpful. I use 50% ww and 50% pure lead with some tin for my hand guns but I am not shooting at max velocities.




I understand what you said. Is there a possible problem if the bullets are too large, and may cause a barrel to burst? I'm assuming not but would like to know for sure.




the red shell on cheese is just wax. [paraffin wax]
for pain lubing you want to use bees-wax anyway, the paraffin is just too brittle without adding a mineral oil which then just makes the lube too slippery.
I'd just go with the 358 sizer and shoot some before I even worried about trying something else.



Guess I hadn't thought about the chesse was being parifin, would it help at alkl to add just a little?

[JSnover]

If your largest are .359" you have nothing to worry about. With reasonable loads your pressure will be fine.

[Jim..47]

[QUOTE=CHeatermk3;3105287]Pushing your out-of-round castings thru the Lee die should result in round boolits, no?


I would think so, but the die has no affect on bullets that are out of round and too small in dia. in half the bullet circumferance. Right?



CHeatermk3
If you bought your Lee sizing die new it should have had a squeeze bottle of Lee liquid alox in with the die. This stuff looks nasty but works very well and is simple as pie to use--just put 50 or so boolits in an empty margerine tub(or similar plastic container--e.g.cool whip) and about 1/2 teaspoon of the LLA and swirl around for about 20 seconds, then pour them out on a sheet of waxed paper and let them dry. When dry, run thru your sizing die and load 'em up.



I may try that on a small batch to see how it works for me. In fact I did try it many year ago but I wasn't satisfied. I may also use the LLA to mix with my own formula.



If you are casting good boolits at .358 I probably wouldn't size them at all.

Mine slip right into a .38 special or .357 mag brass.

I'm using a Lee .358 158 Tumble Lube design. I do size them in a .357 lee sizer to get them down to .356 for loading in 9mm cases.

Lube I'm using Ben's new miracle working liquid lube. Being 40% Johnson's liquid lube (One step) and 60 % alox.

I get all the alox out of that bottle I can, since that bottle is 4 fl I measure 6 fl of Liquid wax, and use it to rinse the bottle twice.

I'm just using a Ragu jar but any sealable bottle or jar should work fine. I have my eye on a near empty Ketchup container. :)

So far everyone who has followed the recipe has had good luck. If you use too much it will take a LONG time to dry, ie sticky for a week.
So just a thin film overall. Start with a teaspoon on 100 boolits and work from there.


I may try your suggested formula some day, but I've been working on my own formula for a long time and it keeps getting better and is already almost perfect, with the exception I have to use a cutter to get the bullets out of the lube pan. I wished they would push through like on the U-Tube videos but so far its a long way from that, and maybe my formula will never do that. This last time I made, which is just last week I added a lot more Lucas Red n Tacky grease. Its amazing how much difference it made in the appreaance. The .357's are for my son in his .357 revolver and he shoots it very little, but I'll ask him how the brass looks after he shoots them, maybe even save them for me to look at.

Thanks again guys for all the help and when I've done more experimentation with what you've all told me I'll try to post the results, but it may be a month or so, cause shooting in the cold of Michigan winter is for the birds.

[Jim..47]

i only size gas check boolits ,plain base just lube.do a comparison to see if sizing makes any difference


I may be doing that too, just have to try it yet.



I'm with the mold temp guys. Give your mold more time to pre-heat and don't let it cool between pours.
Although your pot temp is a bit high it won't be a problem if it is stable. Are you adding cold lead partway through the session, or running the pot almost empty? I never let mine get less than half full. I pre-heat ingots before adding them and take a short break to let the temp stabilize after adding lead.

I guess I should say I'm not new to casting bullets, I really do understand about having the mold up to temp. Sometimes it take more then 6-8 minutes to get it where I want, and if I stop for any reason I heat it up again. And I also understand why you mentioned again. Simply because it appears that that may be part of my problem. And I will certainly excert more caution and watch it closer. But most of the time my problem is getting the mold to cool off enough for the liquid molten lead on the sprue plate to harden so I can dump them in water and get to the next ones. Thanks again, I will honestly be more careful here.



I agree. Too hot of a mold though will make boolits more out of round. The cavity opposite the parting line will get smaller. I pre heat molds to 500*. Once you reach frosty boolits, they will be the smallest and most out of round. Tin does nothing for that.
Do not make the lube harder or slippery, make some Felix lube.
I don't like Alox or a mix but it will work at lower velocities.
I don't size much with any boolit because they cast near throat size but I see where a boolit will barely touch the die at the parting line, does no harm. I actually use the Lee dies to remove excess lube. You want to talk about a MESS! I stuff Felix in the grooves with my fingers and remove excess with the Lee.
My little dog is always under my seat so I can turn a boolit into a Chia pet by dropping one, peel the hair off and you will NOT get it off your fingers! :bigsmyl2::bigsmyl2:

I honestly didn't know that about too hot of a mold/lead mix. I used too have a problem with the lead getting too hot, but I now cast my lead from heating on an LP gas stove. I had real qualms about this before I started, but it seems to work much better then using my Lyman mold pot, and its real easy and almost instant to adjust the temp.




We have argued the too hot mold thing for years but I am correct in that block expansion is out of whack, it is NOT a round hole in a chunk of metal. Once you reach no wrinkles and have nice shiny boolits filled out, adjust your cadence of casting to stay there.
Do NOT make the mold hotter. 750* for a mold is too hot, My lead is 725* to750* but not the mold.
I get my molds hot and drop the cherry back in and cut more metal out quickly so as not to get the cherry hot and get almost perfectly round boolits. Molds are cut cold so when you get them hot, uneven expansion shows up. There is no way to avoid that until mold blocks are cut HOT.
Let the arguments begin!


Can you explain a little more in detail what you said about ( I am correct in that block expansion is out of whack, it is NOT a round hole in a chunk of metal. Once you reach no wrinkles and have nice shiny boolits filled out, adjust your cadence of casting to stay there.)?

Can you also explain more about the cherry thing? I'm not understanding it real well.


I never get a cast boolit that is perfectly round, as dropped, others better at it than I am might. C.E. Harris states that as long as a boolit is less than 1% of the boolit diameter out of round, it should be alright.

I agree with fellows, keep trying to improve your casts, and in the mean time, shoot some of those boolits, they may do real good. I have always sized .358" in my Smith .357 mags and it has worked fine for me. Since you are pan lubing, I wouldn't even worry about sizing, just lube and load'em up.

You state you have no leading, so you are on the right track.

Are you the same Hickok I've seen on the U-Tube video's?

Thanks for your first line there, really good to know. I agree about testing the bullets, but as I said above, they are for my son, and he won't let me shoot the gun so I can try them. I'll ask him again to bring the gun aver to my place and shoot a few. and I am definitely going to try going without sizing them and will also try that with my .40 Smith n Wesson bullets which looks worlds better than these .357's. and will try that on a couple more of my guns as well. As others have said, sizing bullets is about the most mundane part of making your own.

[Boolseye]

I would just add a bit more paraffin (candle wax)to the lube to get it to the hardness you want.
everything else sounds fine, .358" is what I size all my .38/.357 bullets. See how they shoot.

[44man]

I make my own mold cutting cherries and cut my own molds. The cherry is a tool steel boolit with cutting edges.
Usually a mold will heat uneven and get out of round so I found if I drop the cherry back in a hot mold, I will remove a lot more aluminum just turning it by hand with a wrench. All the cutting is 90* to the parting line and rounds out the cavities.
They will not be round in a cold mold only when hot.
This is something you cant do with a store bought. Molds are cut cold with a lot of coolant and will be nice and round at that time but once heated that all changes.
I figure if for the last, final cut, even with lathe bored, the molds would be better if heated for that cut.
The hardest thing I have had to explain is the cavities are not the same as a hole in a solid piece. Expansion is away from center at the parting line but towards the parting line 90* to it.
You would think that the entire block expansion would even things out but that is not what I see.
Molds with a different size and mass might be different.

[DougGuy]

If you get where your sized boolits won't quite push into the cylinder throats, PM me and I will be glad to help fix that. It is pretty common to size .358" and the throats need to be made to accommodate this size.

[gloob]

If you're getting no leading and good accuracy, then I wouldn't worry. I would try shooting them completely unsized, even. Your barrel does exactly the same thing as a sizer, and the extra pressure getting into the throats might even improve accuracy. You never know.

From everything I have read, you don't want to use much oil/grease. For one, too much petrol based oil will slowly seep out of the beeswax. And too much slickness will decrease accuracy by making the bullet slip unpredictably, decreasing the power burn consistency.

If you want a lube that's not messy, I use (very roughly) 50:50 beeswax and Lee Liquid Alox, and just a smidge of paraffin. Put 1/2" of water in a pan and put it on the stove on medium. Take an empty mint tin and add the ingredients. After it's all melted, leave the heat on for another 15-20 minutes to boil off all the solvents, then let cool. If you get the mix right and all the solvent out, you get a solid but pliable wax that has just enough stick to it. It feels just about like MBC's blue lube.

After slightly warming the stuff, you can gather a little ball on a finger tip and wrap/wipe it right around the grooves of a bullet. Or you can tumble lube in a cake pan by putting a few chips on top of the bullets and melting the lube with a heat gun. Then tumble over the heat gun. The lube is dry and non-tacky as soon as the bullets cool.

[Jim..47]

Thanks for those last few posts guys, and 44 Man, thanks for the explaination of the cherry. Very interesting and I wished I could do that.

gloob, thanks for your post and the explanation of your special mix. Very interesting. But I don't understand how you can tumble them.