9mm tumbling, where do I go from here?

[AFK]

Hello all, I am a new caster and have really enjoyed learning from this site. I decided to start casting my own bullets and I started with 45 ACP. After some trial and error I now have success in that caliber. Accurate rounds with very little leading. I still want to tweak some things to try to achieve zero leading. Anyway, I am having a problem with 9mm. I shot my first rounds today and had a lot of leading and about half of the bullets would keyhole at 11 yards. This happened in both my S&W Shiled and my XD9SC. Below is some info to help you better understand what I am faced with.

-LEE 356-120-TC mold
-Bullets drop a little oval anywhere from .357 to .359 depending on where I measure them, they are measured with digital calipers as I do not have a micrometer.
-My lead is measuring 14.8 BHN with LEE tester
-Bullets are tumble lubed with white label 45/45/10, sized to .357 through a LEE push-through sizer, and tumbled lubed again. The calipers read .357 all the way around after they are sized.
-My Shield barrel slugged at .355 near as I could tell, there are an odd # of grooves
-My XD9SC barrel slugged at .354
-The C.O.L. of the finished rounds were 1.062 and they were crimped to just remove the bell. The final crimp measurement is .3815.
-I am using a Lyman M die to expand and flare just enough so the lead won't shave when seated.
-I seat and crimp in seperate stations using Hornady dies
-When I pull a completed round apart the bullet measures .3565, this is before and after crimping. Obviously a little smaller then it was before being seated. I am not sure
-I loaded with 4.0 gr. of W231

I had a couple of ideas where to proceed next. I was going to try to increase the powder charge to 4.2 gr to see if that helps. I also thought about increasing the overall length of the cartridge to just be able to chamber so the bullet is closer to the rifling. I also thought about water quenching the bullets, but I really don;t want to. I have read that my BHN should be fine for 9mm. Any suggestions would sure be appreciated.

[NuJudge]

What are you using to measure your bullet diameter? I would suggest getting a good non-Chinese micrometer, and check your results against a known quantity (a factory bullet of that diameter). My experience with Chinese Vernier Calipers is that they are frequently off by .002".

There are people who like soft bullets. There are people who like bullet hardness to be in proportion to pressure of the cartridge. There are people like me who believe in really hard bullets, fitted to the groove diameter, plus a little. The believers in soft bullets feel that they will 'bump up' if they use a fast powder. It never worked for me. Try it if you wish. The soft bullet lovers generally do so toward lower pressure cartridges such as the .45 acp. The 9mm is a much higher pressure cartridge.

I am a believer in hard bullets. I typically use range scrap as my Lead source, which has lots of antimony. I add a little bit of Tin, which hardens Lead far more than just antimony or just Tin. Tin also improves surface finish. I drop them from the mold into water, which hardens them even more, and deals with a material handling problem of how to handle a lot of HOT bullets.

I am a believer in cases that are sized small. With a soft bullet, a small ID case might size a soft bullet down some on bullet seating. I use hard bullets, and have not seen this. I size cases small so I do not get bullet set back during semi-auto loading.

I shoot 9mm mostly through Beretta and Walther pistols. All of them have barrel groove diameters just under .358". I have a Browning HiPower with a groove diameter of almost .358", but has a chamber which will not accept a cartridge assembled with a bullet over .356". It Leads a lot with .356" Lead bullets. The HiPower gets jacketed only.

Can I suggest you first check your measuring instruments. Perhaps try a harder bullet, and/or a larger bullet. If you have Leading, I would go with a lower powder charge, not a higher one. If you want to try the soft bullets and try to bump them up, use a faster powder. You might want to try a belling die that does not expand the inside of the case, one such as the Lee universal expander.

[Tar Heel]

You go to AA#7 as a propellant.

[hunter49]

I was experiencing those issues myself. I use that same mold which drops at .358 using ww. This is what works great for me! I just recently started using forum member smoke4320's powder coat (great customer service and product). I use the asbbdt (air soft black bb's dry tumble) method. After baking and air cooling I size through Lee's .356 sizing die which sizes to .355.


I also use Lee's universal case mouth expanding die and expand case mouth just enough to accept my cast boolit. Using Titegroup 3.7 grains, seat to c.o.l. of 1.110 and light crimp, absolutely no leading, no keyholes and now great groupings and nice round holes on paper target.


I'm shooting out of a Springfield xdm 9mm compact and barrel slugged at .3535

[captaint]

I had to get my boolits for the 9mm to .358 to eliminate leading - never had tumbling though. Tumbling is generally caused by boolit too small, in pistols, anyway. Mike

[AFK]

Thanks for the responses. I have also been reading about powder coating with the air soft bb's. I am intrigued. I like the thought of no smelly lube to deal with and it doesn't seem to me that it would take any longer then tumble lubing, letting it dry, sizing, then tumble lubing again. I think I might scout around for some BB's and a toaster oven!

I do want to get a micrometer, the good ones are pricey though.

[Shiloh]

You need a mike to check diameter. My chinese mike is as accurate as a $120 Mititoyo I checked it against.
I would be shocked if you have a 9mm bore at .354.

I size to .3583 that my LEE sizer die sizes at. I also tumble lube just about all my boolits. Thiws includes traditional lube grove boolits.

Shiloh

[Foto Joe]

I'm no expert here but since your tumble lubing I'd recommend testing out a few dozen rounds "unsized" and just tumble lubed. The fact that your mold isn't dropping completely round boolits in a handgun caliber shouldn't effect your accuracy at the distances being used. If you're keyholing at 11 yards I'd be pretty sure that you can probably throw a cat through the gap between the boolit and the barrel as it travels towards the hole at the end. This theory is backed up by the fact that you're getting substantial leading. Run up a few dummy rounds unsized to make sure that they will chamber and if they do go ahead and load a few dozen up, you might be surprised by the results, sizing handgun boolits for most of us is just a side effect of using a Lyman or Star sizing setup to lube our boolits. My guess is that by increasing the size and not necessarily water dropping (which I don't think is needed) your leading issues may go away.

Although I no longer own a 9mm, when I did I shot the same boolit sized at .358 with zero leading in a S&W Model 39-2. My daughter continues to shoot that same gun and boolit with great success.

[fredj338]

I had to get my boolits for the 9mm to .358 to eliminate leading - never had tumbling though. Tumbling is generally caused by boolit too small, in pistols, anyway. Mike

Or running too slow for the weight. I would try bumping the charge a bit, see if that cleans up. I run my 120grTC @ 1000fps +, never had a tumbling issue. I use pretty much range scrap, 10BHN. I size @ 0.3565".

[twc1964]

I use that same boolit powdercoated and sized .358. Great accuracy and no leading even at speeds creeping up towards 1200fps. My boolits are air cooled range scrap at 12.6 bhn. Works fine for me. I would try a bigger diameter. My mold wouldnt drop large enuff so i beagled my mold. Super easy and cheap to do. Theres a sticky on that i believe.

[AFK]

The more I read about powder coating, the more I am intrigued. I like the benefit of less smoke, especially at the indoor range, and no need for lube. I would like to figure out this issue before I PC though. Just to gain the knowledge of how to fix it if nothing else. I might order a micrometer because I think I will need it regardless of what I do. I am hesitant because when I measure bullets after running through a specific sizer, my calipers are right on the money. Not to say that the sizer is correct though. When I shot the offending rounds, the recoil was certainly less then my jacketed rounds that are not loaded at max, so I think I am going to try the following:

-Re-slug my barrels and try to size bullets .002 larger
-Try adding some tin to my alloy to get the mold to drop a little larger. If the stars line up, I can get it to drop at .357-.359 as an oval shape. If that doesn't work, then I will probably try to lap it or Beagle it. The weird thing is that bullets dropped from the mold measure about .358-.359 perpendicular to the part, .357.358 along the part, and usually .356-.3565 in between. My goal is to try to get to .358 and see if they will chamber.
-Load to the longest C.O.L possible
-Bump up the powder charge a bit, especially if I am going to make the rounds longer

I use 231 in almost all of my rounds, I do have Titegroup, Unique, and Clay Dot on hand. Do you think think any of these powders might work better?
-

[Boolseye]

I think you're on the right track. I trust this is not the tumble lube version with microgrooves. That mold is problematic. Assuming it's the standard lube groove version–the obvious place to start is the sizer. I don't size that bullet at all, they drop from the mold .3575-.359. I like to fill that lube groove with wax. Sometimes I tumble lube too. Good luck–it's a well-liked bullet, for what it's worth. The powder charge doesn't sound like the problem to me. 231 is a great 9mm powder. Take care not swage the bullet down when you load it, use a lyman m-die if you can, and avoid the Lee factory crimp die. A light taper crimp is all that's needed, I like it right at .380" at the mouth of the case. Seat the bullet as long as you can and have it pass the "plunk" test. You'll dial it in.

[AFK]

Well, I tried adding tin to my alloy tonight and could not get the mold to drop any different then before. I also tried temps anywhere from 675 to 800. It will not drop larger then .3565 when measured about 45 degrees from the parting line if that makes any sense. I guess the next step is to load them up as cast without sizing and see if that makes any difference. I'm not a fan of seating an oval bullet, but I've also never tried it. I may be surprised.

Boolseye, thanks for the tips. I am using an M die, a Hornady seating die, and a Hornady crimp die all in seperate stations. When I pull a seated bullet, It seems to have been swaged about .0005. I use nickel brass and I am wondering if that could also be causing the bullet to swage a tiny bit. I have heard it is not as forgiving as yellow brass when seating lead. If these things don't work, I guess it's time to lap the mold. I am just concerned that although I may be able to get the smallest part to open up a couple of thou, I will also open up the largest part to about .361. Will this be too large to size?

[Newboy]

Afk

I am using almost the exact same as you, except with the old Lyman 125 rn. Sized with homemade m-die to .357. But I am using dead soft lead, powder coated. 4.0 231, just like you are. Really good load in Glock with Lone Wolf barrel, and Walther PPQ.

[NuJudge]

Your mold drops .357"/.358"/.359". Can you lube, but not size, and seat one bullet in one case, and see if it freely chambers in both pistols?
If it freely chambers, do up a small batch of ammo with lubed, but not sized bullets. See how they shoot.

[Boolseye]

Are you pre-heating the mold? It's a must. Whether you dip a corner in the melt, use a hot plate or put it on the wood stove (I do all three) that mold needs to be hot to drop good bullets. If you cover all your bases and you're still getting out-of-round bullets, there's something up with the mold. That said, there's always a little discrepancy depending on where you measure. .0005" or even .001" difference from one measurement to another is no big deal. Have you checked out MtGun44's sticky on setting up for the 9mm? It's a good one.

[AFK]

NuJudge, I am going to try that next and see how they shoot. Hopefully that will work and be accurate. If not I might try beagling.

Boolseye, I use a hot plate to warm the mold up. I have tried mold temps from wrinkled bullets to frosty with the same results. Actually I can see a difference in size between the two extreme temp differences. The bullets that drop just after the wrinkle stage are a little smaller than my posted dimensions. I try to run the mold as hot as I can without getting frosted bullets. I have also read MtGun44's stickey and it was very informative. I am going to read it again too. One thing I will say, this issue has taught me a lot about how different melt temps, mold temps, and alloy composition afect the dropped bullet, so there's a positive to this issue as well.

[blikseme300]

Well, I tried adding tin to my alloy tonight and could not get the mold to drop any different then before. I also tried temps anywhere from 675 to 800. It will not drop larger then .3565 when measured about 45 degrees from the parting line if that makes any sense. I guess the next step is to load them up as cast without sizing and see if that makes any difference. I'm not a fan of seating an oval bullet, but I've also never tried it. I may be surprised.

Boolseye, thanks for the tips. I am using an M die, a Hornady seating die, and a Hornady crimp die all in seperate stations. When I pull a seated bullet, It seems to have been swaged about .0005. I use nickel brass and I am wondering if that could also be causing the bullet to swage a tiny bit. I have heard it is not as forgiving as yellow brass when seating lead. If these things don't work, I guess it's time to lap the mold. I am just concerned that although I may be able to get the smallest part to open up a couple of thou, I will also open up the largest part to about .361. Will this be too large to size?

AFK, I have read this thread through again and the colored part is in my opinion and experience where the problem lies. You have done good research into whats going on during the process and the cause of the tumbling is boolits that are too small after loading.

Nickle brass is harder and will swage the boolits as you have found. Yellow Brass will probably work for you but I have found that some head stamped brass are also harder than others. My solution to this same problem you are having was not using harder or larger boolits but to open up the brass so that the boolits are not swaged down. To do this I machined drop through expanders for both a Lee auto disk pro and a Hornady LnL powder measure that opens up the brass and slightly bells so that the boolit is 0.0015 larger than the case throat. There are a number of sources for expanders for powder measures available from vendors that do exactly what my home made ones do. Some members here have also found that using expanders for 38spl or 357mag work. Search the forums for this.

I lube/size the 120TC boolits using a .3575 die and the expander measures .356. My favorite charge is 4.2gr of HP38.

The 45acp is less prone to swage the boolits than 9mmP as the brass is thinner and the ratio of case expansion is less so softer alloy works well for those. I would suggest that you try some yellow brass and pull a few boolits and measure again. You will most likely be surprised.

[AFK]

Thanks for the insight. Maybe I will steal the expander plug from my .38 special M die and try that along with seating bullets as cast. I guess it couldn't hurt.

[MtGun44]

Check out the sticky:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?121737-Setting-up-for-boolits-in-a-new-9mm

The primary problem is undersized boolits being delivered to the barrel.

Bill

[AFK]

Well I made a few adjustments yesterday. I ended up lapping my mold so it now drops about .359 bullets. I lubed and sized some down to .358. I started over with the setup of my dies. I found the expander plug from the 9mm m die was not expanding enough and was swaging them back down to .357. I then took the expander plug from my .38 sp m die to use. Unfortunately it it is a little too long for the case and bulges it out before it flares. I guess it hits the case where it starts to taper inside and buldges it out. I am going to try to chuck the plug in my drill press and grind it down so it tapers more at the bottom, below where the bottom of the bullet would seat. After that I will try to seat the .358 bullets and see if they get swaged. If not, then I will try to plunk them. If so, then maybe a larger plug is needed. I did try to adjust the C.O.L. with the .357 bullets and the guns will accept cartridges longer then I would like to see. I can seat a bullet so the lube groove is exposed and they will still chamber. Once I get to that step, after the expanding/swaging issue, I am going to try seating the bullet so the lube groove is just barely concealed and the case mouth has some bullet under it if that makes ant sense. Thanks to all that have been helping, I'm sure I'll get this licked eventually, and will have learned a lot in the process.

[9.3X62AL]

Late to the party, darn it. I agree that some factor is causing your bullets to get reduced in diameter prior to presentation to the barrel, as Bill said. I also agree wholeheartedly with the poster advising the .0015" difference between bullet diameter and expander spud diameter. With springback, you will have enough tension to hold a bullet in place against feedramp contact, even in a Browning HP.

I have a deep dislike for taper crimp dies. Older RCBS seater dies in 9mm and 45 ACP had small roll crimp shoulders, and a light kiss of those shoulders was enough to straighten out case mouth flare, AND NO MORE. My RCBS 40 S&W seater die is a taper crimp format, and I DO NOT use that capability when seating a lead bullet. IF I taper-crimp, it is done as a discrete die step apart from bullet seating. More likely these days, I run the assembled cartridge into the first couple thousandths of the sizer die (minus its decapping assembly) to turn in the case mouth flare ONLY.

Did I mention that I dislike taper crimp dies with a purple passion?? I wish like hell RCBS made a 40 S&W seater die with roll crimp shoulder!

FWIW, my 9mm bullet alloy is much like yours, BHn about 14 (92/6/2). I use the Lee or an NEI 125 grain TC bullet design with conventional lube groove sized a true .357" and lubed with 50/50 beeswax/alox. My expanding is a 2-step process.....first with a .358"-marked RCBS Cowboy expander spud (dia. .3555) followed by the Lyman 38 AP Multi-Charge spud for final form and powder dispensing. My P-W Metal-Matic has 10 turret spots, I can do all sorts of dogmatic stuff with it.

[MtGun44]

Taper crimping always needs to be done as a separate step in the
process.

Bill

[AFK]

Once again, thanks for all of the input. I picked up a micrometer today and re-measured everything. I also slugged my barrels again. It looks like the XD9SC is .3555 and the Shield is .356. I am not 100% on the Shield because there is an odd number of grooves. My micrometer says that the bullets are .3575 after running them through the LEE .358 sizer. I also chucked my M die plug from my .38 special die in my drill press and narrowed it down towards the bottom so it won't bulge the 9mm case while expanding. At this point I think I am at my limit with bullet diameter and reliable chambering. After seating bullets I pulled them to measure and they were still .3575, I tested this a few times to make sure I was getting repeatable results. I then started crimping, in a seperate station, in very small increments. I tried the plunk test after every minor adjustment so I could creep up to the final crimp without going too far. Once I hit .381, the rounds would successfully plunk. I then made up 7 dummy rounds while making minor tweaks to keep the same measurements. I did this because my press will give slightly different results depending on whether or not all 5 stations are full. Anyway, I ran the dummy rounds through the mags/gun and they all chambered and fed fine. I pulled the bullets and they are about .3572. Obviously a touch smaller then they were. I did these tests with a batch of nickel brass and yellow brass and got the same results. I also changed my C.O.L. to 1.08, this length ensures the lube groove is below the case mouth and the case mouth itself is being supported at the same time. I will hopefully get a chance to fire these new rounds this coming weekend and I am keeping my fingers crossed that everything will work as I hope. If not, I really don't know what to do from here. At this point I have the largest bullet that my chambers will accept and I am not going to have any alterations made to the guns. I am going to try powder coating as well, but I really want to make this work before that.

I did realize as well that my micrometer and my calipers differ by about .0005 - .001. In theory I thought I was shooting a bullet about .3565 when it may have been more like .3555 - .356. Probably not so good with barrels at the same dimensions. Wish me luck! I'll post results after I get a chance to shoot them.

[AFK]

So I went to the range today and shot some of my new rounds. I have effectively eliminated the keyholing and improved accuracy so that goes in the "pass" column. The problem is I still had a decent amount of leading so that goes in the "fail" column. The leading was worse in the Shield barrel (note that it is .0005 larger than the XD barrel). I am convinced I cannot go with a bullet larger than .3572 as it will not chamber. I am always reading that people have succes with cast bullets with these 2 guns and it doesn't seem that I have odd size barrels or anything. So I think I have the proper sizing and it is now down to proper charge/powder or maybe hardness.

My thinking is this:

-Try a slower burning powder like Unique
or
-Try a lighter charge of W231
or
-Try to water quench my bullets

Obviously I don't want to change too much at once. Does anyone think I'm on the right track, or do you have any suggestions?

Thanks

[Foto Joe]

Now the fun starts so to speak. As far as your question is concerned the answer is "All of the above" but not all at once. Water dropping is simple and may net you the results you're looking for. Slowing your powder down is also a step in the right direction. It's an art form and eventually through experimentation and evaluation you'll hit the right combo for "your" gun.

Wait til you try 44 Mag out of a rifle, then the games really begin.

[AFK]

LOL, yeah it can be a bit frustrating, challenging, and fun at the same time. It.s good to know I am on the right track.

[tazman]

I haven't chimed in on this up to now since you were getting lots of advice from others.
I water quench my pistol boolits(9mm included) as a matter of course. I tumble lube with White label X-Lox and get no leading and very good accuracy in my pistols. However I don't own copies of your guns and cannot speak to that model directly.
Powder coating also worked well for me. I found I needed to harden my boolits even with powder coating to get my best accuracy. To harden, I would water quench them directly from the oven after the powder coat curing cycle. This seemed to work well for me.
I don't powder coat now as I am getting good results with the tumble lube and it is a bit less hassle for me, not because powder coating doesn't work because it certainly does.

[Foto Joe]

A high pressure round like a 9mm can be pressure sensitive, i.e. too much can cause problems other than damaging a gun. Lead boolits tend to benefit from lower pressures in high pressure rounds.

[MtGun44]

I'm sure that your theory behind water quenching is "harder boolits reduce or eliminate
leading", with is basically not true as it stands, regardless of the huge number of folks
that are convinced of it. Harder than pure lead, I may agree, but once one gets to
about 10-12 BHN where wheelweights air cooled are, there is no reasonable expectation
of reduction of leading by ONLY increasing hardness. Occasionally, harder will help, but
just as often harder is worse, especially when too small.

The Lee 356-120 TC at 14.8 BHN WITH A GOOD LUBE is a good design (assuming the
standard lube groove version) and should not lead if it is .001 to .002
larger than groove diameter as it exits the case.

You are tumble lubing, and this is a very marginal lube system with many reported
failures in 9mm although some do succeed. Larger diam and better lube are my recommendations.
NRA 50-50 or LBT soft blue are known good lubes and good places to start to beat the
irritating 9mm.

Certainly, the fact that you are doing a more accurate measurement job is a significant
improvement, keep it up and you will win. One other issue is some barrels are very
rough and tend to lead much more than is normal. A few hundred rounds of jacketed
ammo can improve the surface finish, as can a VERY fine grit fire lapping, like 400 or
600 grit for 10 or 20 rounds.

Bill

[AFK]

I have pondered the lube being a possible culprit as well. The XD has at least a couple thousand FMJ's through it and the shield has about 600. I might suspect a rough barrel in the shield if I wasn't getting leading in the XD. I think I'll do some more reading about bullet lube. I really don,t have the desire to invest in a lube/sizer. If the lube is what it finally comes down to, the I might be powder coating sooner then later.

I only used a very light coat of the 45/45/10. Do you think a heavier coat would help or would it just be a waste of time?

[9.3X62AL]

I am neither a tumble-luber nor a powder coater. I have always used a Lyman 450 or 4500 and applied lube via that sizing system. All of my expressed opinions and conclusions are based upon use of that method and in the case of the 9mm Parabellum the use of 50/50 beeswax/Alox.

[Foto Joe]

I tumble lubed a lot of boolits before I bit the bullet so to speak and bought a Lyman 4500 from Cabela's using my points. It ran right about $180 but of course then you need to buy the H&I dies and top punches. If you were to buy one I think you'd like it but there are many out there who don't have a lot of good to say about traditionally lubed cast boolits.

9mm is one of those super sonic little pills that does like the correct amount of lube. I did tumble lube mine with 45-45-10 sized .358 with very good success but they were barely pushing the 1,100+ fps mark too. I might suggest getting a stick of Lyman Alox (NRA 50/50 type) lube and pan lubing some just for grins to see how that works. It's a much cheaper option than setting up for powder coating or purchasing a 4500 and it will give you your answer, it will also cure you of wanting to pan lube boolits but it will give you your answer about lube and your 9mm.

Unlike the government most of us "subjects" know that throwing money at a problem will seldom resolve said problem.

[AFK]

Well I think I am going to take the "process of elimination" approach here. I think I am first going to try some Unique and a tad more lube. My bullets have a very, very light coating on them now. I don't want them sticky and clumpy, but maybe a little more. I agree that throwing money at a problem seldom resolves it. If the above doesn't work, I like the idea of pan lubing with the NRA 50/50 type lube to see if that gets me the results that I want. Only throwing a small amount of money at it at the same time. I'd like to try to stay away from water quenching if I can because I don't want to add another step, like letting bullets dry before the 1st round of tumble lubing. I am confident I will figure this out, along with the great support here.

[Schrag4]

I'm a new caster, so take my anecdotal experience with a grain of salt. I'm casting 124gr RN tumble-variety using the Lee 6-cavity mold. I don't have a micrometer, but my calipers show they're dropping about .359 using straight WW. With LLA and without sizing, I was getting terrible leading in my SR9c. That was about a year ago, and I got busy with other things.

Recently I started reading about powder coating, and that drew me back in. I'm powder coating these boolits now using the cheapest means possible (small toaster oven, Harbor Freight red paint, applying by dry tumbling), and I'm sizing the coated boolits with a Lee .356 sizer. Results are great! No more leading, and accuracy is decent with AA#5 and pretty darn good with Unique.

Long story short, I'm a big advocate of powder coating. I shoot a fair amount indoors, which drove my decision more than anything. There are several other significant benefits that come along with PC as well. I thought I read on here that PC boolits do well when sized pretty small (.356 in my case), which is definitely different than what works for traditionally lubed boolits, at least from what I've read on this forum.

[AFK]

Schrag, thanks for the input. I do plan on powder coating for the same reason. I shoot primarily indoors and I would like to try it to eliminate the need for lube and the extra dirt that goes along with it. I already ordered some black PC and BB's from Smoke here on this site, and I am on the hunt for a toaster oven. I really want to figure this out before I try powder coating. To gain the knowledge of how to fix it, to be able to help others with the same issue, and to finish what I started. I think I will get the "job well done" feeling once I find the right combination. It's fun to try things and see the results.

[popper]

128820 - something like 50 from XDS 9.
I use a 130gr TC in 3 XDS & XD, sized .357 with HiTek coating, 4 gr. 231/HP38. Works fine, darned accurate. Also use the 38M expander BUT just expand, use the Lee universal to flare (else you get case bulge). Never had luck with LLA or other gooey stuff. I started PC but changed to HiTek. It's a high pressure round and you have to use a harder alloy, H.T.'d 2% Sb min. It's NOT a 45ACP, WDWW should do fine. Forget the Unique. The HiTek is like $11 to do >100K boolits.

[Lloyd Smale]

cast them harder. there probably stripping through the rifling. If you didn't have leading id say to try to shoot them a bit faster but seeing that your having major leading its no doubt do to a to soft alloy or that bullet is just to small in diameter for that gun and is never going to grip the rifling.

[AFK]

Lloyd, thanks for the insight. I think my plan at this point is to load up some harder bullets, with the same powder charge, and try that in 1 gun and also try the same softer bullets in my other gun with a lower powder charge and a little more lube. It's kinda hard to go to the range after every little change, so I figure if one gun does not lead, or it is significantly reduced, that will give me a direction to turn. I water quenched some bullets last night and will get them loaded by the weekend. I was going to try a different lube, but I really don't want to spend any more money on the issue. I also received a PM from a very nice member who offered up some of his bullets with conventional lube for me to try. A super nice gesture on his part and it will enable me to try multiple things to remedy the issue. If none of these things work, I may open up my LEE sizer to a full .358. They are coming out now a .3575. I have not done this yet because I think I am maxed out in my chambers with a .3572 bullet. It never hurts to try though. I'll try to get to the range Saturday and report back.

[klementzos]

I had very similar issues. I ended up trying everything you have done and still had issues. When i switched to Unique powder the tumbling went away. I still get a little leading but can shoot about 250 to 300 rounds before i notice any accuracy degradation. Good luck.

[coffeeguy]

AFK, I'm glad you're making progress...I second the powdercoating advice, but with that said, I totally appreciate that you're trying to 'get it right' with respect to the finer points of addressing leading. There are so many factors, such as:

1. Does the leading occur more toward the throat, more toward the muzzle, or evenly?
2. Is there more leading on the leading vs the trailing edge of the rifling?

I'd think you're handling it correctly by addressing sizing, hardness and velocity...Size is, I think, the most critical. Hardness and velocity go hand in hand. The bullet should be soft enough to obturate at a given pressure, so that the base of the bullet seals the bore, and at the same time hard enough to withstand the velocity at which it's driven, so yes you can find that 'sweet spot' by adjusting both or either.

I 'm a big fan of powdercoating because it's fairly quick, easy, reduces smoke, increases bullet size and eliminates leading all in one fell swoop, but it's important to understand the mechanics of how leading and accuracy are affected...There's a lot of good advice here and boolit casting is one of those rare things which are both an art and a science. Have fun and keep us posted!

[AFK]

I had very similar issues. I ended up trying everything you have done and still had issues. When i switched to Unique powder the tumbling went away. I still get a little leading but can shoot about 250 to 300 rounds before i notice any accuracy degradation. Good luck.

Interesting, I have some Unique and I am keeping it in my 'bag of tricks' so to speak

Coffeeguy,
The leading seems to occur evenly down the bore, one of the reasons I water quenched some bullets and will try that. I did not take note whether or not it was more on the trailing edge or leading edge or not. If it happens again, I will take note of it, maybe even try to get some pics.

I believe I am eventually going to try powder coat, especially if I verify that conventional lube is what is needed to stop the leading. Powder coat and a garage sale toaster oven is a lot cheaper then a lubesizer, plus I would like to eliminate the smoke and dirt associated with the lube and uncoated lead. I don't think I would enjoy pan lubing too much. I just got some jet black powder and black bb's from smoke here on this site. I still need a toaster oven too.

I believe to be 100% succesful, and to fully understand the mechanics/science of casting/reloading, one must be able to get good results with uncoated alloy. I may ruffle some feathers with that statement, but that is how I feel. For future guns/calibers, I want to be able to apply what I have learned through this and also be able to help newcomers to this awesome hobby we have here. Some day I will no longer be a newbie to casting and I hope to see the hobby grow as it has been. If I can help that happen by helping others, then I think we are all better off.

[coffeeguy]

Yeah, and I guess feathers would be ruffled either way, but I think that most here would agree with you. Powdercoating is basically a substitute for jacketed bullets...It's very forgiving but can be used as a crutch...and if it gets to that extreme then it misses the whole point of this forum. I love to cast, love to shoot, but I also like to know how and why things happen in the mould/barrel.

You're exactly right, it's like basic marksmanship...In order to be a "good shot", one has to understand the fundamentals and apply them successfully too. I see a lot of opinions here, have spewed several myself, but I like that we all tend to share information for the greater good. Getting back on topic, though, I've not had a problem with tumbling but your original post on this thread now has me wanting to explore my technique for calibers which I haven't cast for in a while, to see if I can duplicate my results with other powders and loadings. Thanks again.

[popper]

mechanics/science of casting/reloading, one must be able to get good results with uncoated alloy No ruffled feathers here but you could just jump to the good working solution - HiTek. I don't sell it, just use it. So much faster than PC for pistol. It may take me 3 days to coat a few 1000 BUT only an hour of actual work. Your 38M plug would work, just DON'T push it past the base of the boolit. Flare with a separate tool. Hard alloy sized 357 WILL work in your XDs. 231 will work fine at 4 gr. Do the plunk test on EVERY round!

[AFK]

Popper, being that I don't have an extra station in my press, I can't flare in a seperate station. I did modify my 38 m die plug so it won't buldge the case when expanding. I will have to look into HiTek as well, I am unfamiliar with it. Thanks for your input.

[gloob]

I last cleaned a bore approximately 2 years ago, and it's been probably well over 1K rounds fired through my 9mm of my own air-cooled straight WW bullets, tumble lubed with Alox. Not a hint of fouling in it. I have probably 700 down the tube of my 45 ACP, MBC cast bullets, only. Wait, take that back. I'm on my third box, so that's over 1K, at least. Also not a hint of fouling in the gun. Accuracy is phenomenal. Way, way, way better than I ever got using 9mm plated bullets, in the past. (My 45 was always very accurate with everything, but it also shoots cast with NO change to my loading procedure; not so with the 9mm.)

I am next going to tackle the 40SW/10mm, but I'm waiting on a proper expander plug. I want to get it right, off the bat. Because I don't even have a Chore Boy in my cleaning kit, anymore.

2 years ago, I might have been interested in powder coating. Having learned how to load cast bullets, I am no longer interested. If I don't get my 40 caliber handguns to shoot cast bullets just as well, I would rather figure out what's wrong with my guns than to mess with my bullets. Knowing what I know, now, I am positive I could load and shoot a plated or PC'd bullet just as accurately. But had I started out, there, I am pretty sure I'd still be satisfied with mediocre accuracy.

BTW, the aforementioned guns are Glocks. Stock barrels.

[220]

Read this with interest as I have a 9mm that did similar, I tried all the tricks different powders, .356-.358, 8-16BHN, LLA, conventional lube and HiTek, a couple of different boolits and just about every combination of them. Some were much better than others but I would still end up with tumbling by 60 shots
In the end I admitted defeat and purchased a GC mould, I still get some leading but at least I can get to 200rds without tumbling.
Still not 100% sure what the cause is but think it might be a combination of poorly cut leade and a barrel that has a loose spot about 1" from the chamber.

[AFK]

OK, so I have an update for anybody that is interested. I loaded up my water quenched bullets last night. The first thing I realized is that I had to readjust my seating and crimping dies. For some reason I could not use the same OAL as I was before but I had to crimp a hair tighter for the rounds to pass the plunk test. I am not sure why, but using the prior OAL was giving me contact with the rifling and holding the case out. I marked a dummy round with a Sharpie and put some extra pressure on it while trying to plunk it. When I removed it, I could see definite marks on the bullet left by the rifling. Anyway, I adjusted the OAL to 1.08 and crimped ever so slightly. I loaded these bullets, now BHN 21, over 4.0 grains of 231 and I also went a little heavier on the 45/45/10. I pulled some bullets from the dummy rounds and they still measured .3575, just like they did before being seated, so I was optimistic. I went to the range today and tested them out. I will say they performed much better then my last batch. They are just as accurate as my jacketed rounds which makes me happy. Leading was significantly reduced, and what was left in the barrel was easier to remove. It was a little heavier in the Shield, which makes sense because the Shield slugged at .356 as opposed to the XD's .3555. The lead was more pronounced on the leading edge of the rifling as opposed to the trailing edge. It is apparent to me now that a difference of just .0005 makes a difference. This leads me to believe that I need to try getting my bullet a little bigger. I am going to hone out my sizer to give me a bullet that is a true .358. I have done this with my .452 sizer and it worked great. Once I have that done, I am going to start over on the seating and crimping settings to see if it is at all possible to get that last .0005 in the chamber and not swage the bullet to make it fit. I am going to stick with the harder alloy as well. I am also going to drop the charge to 3.8 gr of 231. Hopefully this will do it. Once I get to a point where 25 rounds won't lead the barrel, I will have to see if the same is true after 100 rounds. Hopefully so.

I am excited to see things headed in the right direction. On a side note, I have also been developing my rounds for my .45 ACP and have gotten that completely dialed in. LEE TL452-230-2R sized to .4525, they weigh in at 231 grains, give or take a grain, with my 14.8 BHN air cooled alloy. This loaded over 5.2 gr. W231. COL of 1.278 and crimped at .4735. These rounds have been every bit as accurate as my jacketed rounds and requires no more effort to clean the barrel after shooting 75 rounds.

gloob, it sounds like you have your bullets dialed in. I am excited to get to that point. At this point, the only reason I am considering PC is to make things a little less messy. As I gain experience and proper knowledge, that may change too.

[Boolseye]

Good stuff AFK! Sounds like you're there.

[AFK]

Yep just about. Hopefully I'll be able to start opening up my sizer tonight and casting some bullets. Probably won;t be able to get to the range again until next weekend though. Bummer.

[9.3X62AL]

Your path resembles my own, taken and began about 25 years ago when I got disgusted with the inaccuracy and barrel leading I got from cast-bullet 9mm loads. I didn't have tumbling bullets, but might as well have had them--the accuracy was shotgun-like at any given distance. It boils down to fairly hard alloys......sized to match the throat......fairly soft lubes. Same stuff I did with my rifles that ran at 1200-1400 FPS. In short, the good work given in my 45-70 by following that same path got duplicated in the 9mm--10mm--and 40 S&W, and bore sweet fruit.

[MtGun44]

.4735, if accurate measurement on the .45 ACP seems large. Case should be .470 without
any flare or crimp. Crimp should be .470 or smaller to even remove the flare.

Good that you are finding success, although all my 9mms are happy with 12 BHN .357 or
.358, but with NRA 50-50 soft lube.

Bill

[AFK]

.4735, if accurate measurement on the .45 ACP seems large. Case should be .470 without
any flare or crimp. Crimp should be .470 or smaller to even remove the flare.

Maybe I mistyped as that is what is on my spreadsheet. Once I load some more, I will double check the measurement. My press is set up for small primers right now, so after I get the 'new and improved' 9mm loaded up, I will switch it and load some more .45

[62chevy]

.4735, if accurate measurement on the .45 ACP seems large. Case should be .470 without
any flare or crimp. Crimp should be .470 or smaller to even remove the flare.

Good that you are finding success, although all my 9mms are happy with 12 BHN .357 or
.358, but with NRA 50-50 soft lube.

Bill



Bill according to SAAMI .4730 is the standard and that is what I have my die set to.

http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/publications/download/205.pdf

Look on page 49.

[gloob]

It boils down to fairly hard alloys
I'm not convinced of this. Straight air-cooled WW works fine for my bullets. I would guess what's going on is if your expander is too small, the case might swage the base of a softer bullet. My bullets were getting swaged down to as little as .353", depending on the brass. And if you have this problem, making your alloy harder alleviates the issue.

My 9mm started working when I started using a Lee 38S&W expander plug in my 9mm die. There's a sticky on this forum dedicated to it, in case you have not heard of this trick. Since this plug is longer and about 2 mils bigger in diameter, it helps the bullets seat without messing up the base.

In fact, I just went through this rigamarole with 40SW. Bad fouling. So I bought a Lyman 40SW expander. The plug that came was too small, measuring only 396.5-397.0 mils. They sent a new one that was supposed to be in spec @ 398 mils. My calipers are measuring 397.5-398.0 on the replacement, and it is still too tight for my 0.4010" - 0.4015" cast bullets, IMO. I could not even pull down the first few rounds I assembled to even check the base. Kinetic pullet didn't work - and these are heavy 180gr bullets. I tried to use pliers and my press, and that only managed to destroy the bullets. They were just in there too tight.

So the Lyman rep managed to send me a 40-60 Win expander plug made for .405" diameter bullets. I slowly sanded the end down until I got it where I wanted it... and I was pretty shocked to find it working as I desired at a whopping 0.4010" and a 0.403+" flare. This gives plenty of neck tension with no setback.

I am pretty sure one of the reasons my 45ACP works as well as it does with a regular expander is because my 45 ACP sizing die happens to be generously loose. Some cases don't even get enough neck tension on jacketed bullets. So I don't think you necessarily NEED a custom expander for softer alloys. You might have a combination of dies and gun that works without it, if you're lucky.

[ioon44]

"My 9mm started working when I started using a Lee 38S&W expander plug in my 9mm die. There's a sticky on this forum dedicated to it, in case you have not heard of this trick. Since this plug is longer and about 2 mils bigger in diameter, it helps the bullets seat without messing up the base."

I have done the same thing on a Dillon 550 by using the D powder funnel for .38/.357, you just have to shorten the powder die.

[AFK]

Thank you for the input, I have been using the .38 special expander plug from my Lyman M die.

[MtGun44]

Measure some actual .45 ACP factory ammo. Last time I did it, .470 was exact case
diam at front portion.

Just verified, jbullet handloads and factory ammo is .470 diam at front. My handloads
with .452 cast run .472 to .4725, and crimp is about .466. I recommend an actual change in
diameter at the crimp of about .005 -.006 diam to prevent making the case mouth a scraper collecting
crud and jamming it into the end of the chamber. For most reliability when shooting a lot,
like in IPSC, I found a straight case to be detrimental to getting 100% reliability with a
dirty chamber. Also, an actual crimp grabs the boolit to ensure no push-in during feeding,
not depending 100% on case neck tension.

Handloads are already .002 to .003 larger than factory, using a "scraper edge" on the case
(no actual diam reduction at TC) is not going to be a benefit to proper seating of the round
in the chamber, especially a dirty one.

Bill

[AFK]

Bill,
This certainly makes sense. Once I load some more .45, I will check things out. I am not opposed to tightening up the crimp if it will allow me to without changing the size of the bullet.
Thanks

[62chevy]

Measure some actual .45 ACP factory ammo. Last time I did it, .470 was exact case
diam at front portion.

Just verified, jbullet handloads and factory ammo is .470 diam at front. My handloads
with .452 cast run .472 to .4725, and crimp is about .466. I recommend an actual change in
diameter at the crimp of about .005 -.006 diam to prevent making the case mouth a scraper collecting
crud and jamming it into the end of the chamber. For most reliability when shooting a lot,
like in IPSC, I found a straight case to be detrimental to getting 100% reliability with a
dirty chamber. Also, an actual crimp grabs the boolit to ensure no push-in during feeding,
not depending 100% on case neck tension.

Handloads are already .002 to .003 larger than factory, using a "scraper edge" on the case
(no actual diam reduction at TC) is not going to be a benefit to proper seating of the round
in the chamber, especially a dirty one.

Bill

OK that makes since shooting a lot in competition. When I first started reloading Lyman Reloading Handbook 49th Edition and SAAMI said .473 so that is what I set my dies to.

[MtGun44]

Harder boolits can enhance accuracy in some 9mms and .45 ACP revolvers with exceptionally
shallow rifling. IME, it is not necessary in any of my 9mms or one each S&W and Colt 1917
.45 ACP revolvers, IF THE BOOLITS FIT PROPERLY, which is .001 to .002 larger than groove
diameter - delivered to the barrel. An added issue for revolvers is maintaining straight alignment
as the boolit exits the case and transitions to the throat of the cylinder. Greatly oversized
throats can let a boolit tilt, so it slams into the barrel already tilted, never to be straightened.
Not an issue with semiautos.

Air cooled wwts or even softer works for me from 9mm to .357 Mag full house and also for .44
Mag full house ammo. Fit is king, soft lube is extremely helpful, hardness is at least a third
level effect.

Bill

[9.3X62AL]

Gloob et al--

The rationale for the harder alloys has more to do with shallow rifling and insanely-fast rifling twists in 9mm and 40 S&W barrels. I got a handle on small expander spuds in autopistol dies many years ago. Why so many pistolmakers use 1-10" or 4 turns/meter twist in their 9mm barrels is an annoyance to me. It sure as hell isn't needed for the short, squatty bullets being used and their need for stabilization. Again harking back to my rifle experiences, these faster twists can cause soft alloys to strip in the rifling and destroy bullet integrity......and foul the barrel something awful.

[AFK]

Ok well I went to the range today. I would consider myself half way there. Which makes me happy. I was able to modify my sizer to a true .358 and I was able to get them loaded in to the cases without altering the size. I confirmed this by pulling them after seating and also after crimping. They stayed at .358. I had no leading in the XD9SC which is great, but the Shield had some. It wasn't awful, but I needed to get the copper chore boy out. The leading is in the last 3rd of the barrel on the leading edge of the rifling. I was using the WQ alloy and I dropped the charge of W231 to 3.8 grains. I think at this point it might be time to experiment with a different lube like NRA 50/50 or something. If I can be successful with that, then it's time to decide if I want to pan lube or invest in a lube sizer. I am still on the fence about PC.

[tazman]

I use water quenched boolits, sized .358 and tumble lubed in my 9mm pistols with good accuracy and no leading.
That said, it sounds like your lube is giving out before the boolit exits the barrel. Trying a different lube or lubing system sounds like the best idea.
I personally don't powder coat because I don't need to. I have tried it and it works well. My neighbor has a 45LC Blackhawk that we could only get to stop leading by powder coating his boolits. In that case it was necessary and worked well. It also improved his accuracy.

[Boolseye]

I pan lube first, then give them a quick tumble in 45-45-10 (9mm only)

[MtGun44]

NRA 50-50 will likely solve this problem.

Bill

[NuJudge]

Leading toward the muzzle is probably caused by the lubricant running out. Then again, some barrels are just accursed, and will Lead no matter what you do.

NRA 50/50 works extremely well, but in lower pressure loads gives significant amounts of smoke. If your problem is lubricant, NRA formula should cure it.