Hornady 45acp seating die

[newton]

Anyone actually have one and can comment on how it works? I bought a new mold to try and loading some last night in my Lee die I noticed quite a few were getting seated crooked. I noticed, or at least thought I did, with a previous boolit design, but its very much noticeable with this boolit. I am loading the Lee 230-2R.

I am going to polish the seating stem in the Lee die so that the nose does not catch on anything, but it was a **** shoot as to the boolit seating straight or not. If I took my time, and very carefully placed the boolit in the case as straight as I could, then it was fine. But that is very time consuming.

I have heard/read that the Hornady die has a floating sleeve that helps keep the boolit straight until it is seated. Just curious if the sleeve only works with a particular diameter of boolit, or if there are additional sleeves to buy, or if this is just a marketing gimmick and it does not work like this.

I need to find a way of seating boolits without spending a ton of time with each one making sure its perfectly straight up and down. I thought about making a sleeve from a used case, maybe a 45 colt case or straight walled rifle case, to use with the Lee die. But I think it will just be easier to get a new set of dies and sell the set I have. Its weird because it does not do it as much, or to as much of a degree, with flat nosed boolits. These round nose ones seem to be the worst. The seating stem/plug is machined for a round nose profile, so that makes it even weirder. Maybe polishing it real good will cure the issue.

[Tatume]

I've used this die. However, it sounds like your problem isn't something that you need the precision die to cure. It appears you need a new seating stem to match your bullet profile. Lee sells them for a modest price, or you could borrow one from one of your other dies.

The sliding sleeve in the Hornady die will help correct a few thousandths of eccentricity. If you're loading match ammo and that last tiny little bit of accuracy means something to you, then this die may be worthwhile.

[newton]

I am not sure how much it is canting in the case, sometimes it is a lot, sometimes not. The stem matches pretty well, but it is not a complete "perfect" match as in a glove to hand fit. I've never had any other issues with any other calibers, rifles or pistols, with the seating stem not being a perfect match for the bullet I am using.

But, its worth a shot I guess. I will get ahold of Lee and ask about a new stem. Seeing how they make the mold I am using I am sure they have the exact specs they would need to make a stem to fit.

I took it apart and looked real good at it. I can see how if the boolit is not sitting near perfect in the case to start with, how it can easily have enough room to get started crooked. There is a lot of play in the Lee die. I polished the stem slick, in hopes that the boolit will glide into position easier, and it seemed to help a little, but I only loaded a few.

I was just thinking that with the way that the hornady die has that sleeve that comes down, it would be a no brainer as far as the boolit getting seated straight. Not looking at it for the precision it would give, but rather the ease of mind knowing that the boolit is going to be held and seated correctly 100% of the time.

I can see, in a round about way, how a custom stem in the Lee die might hold the boolit straight up and down. I suppose that would be the best way to go at first, then if it does not fix the issue move on.

Thanks

[stu1ritter]

I eliminated most all of my seating problems by going to the Lyman M expander die. The bullets now sit dead square in the case when I start them in the seating die. I use the standard RCBS seating die for H&G #68 and H&G #130, both right at 200 gr. and it works great now that the cases are properly prepared by the Lyman M die.
Stu

[newton]

I had wondered if its not the powder through expanding die I'm using not expanding it the same all the way around. I'll have to take a closer look at it tonight. I plan on getting a turret press in the future so I want to stick with the powder through die. I did play around with how much it flared the mouth, but have not run enough rounds to see if it makes too much of a difference. I have it set now to just allow the boolit, to sit in the case, up to the edge of the rear most band.

[stu1ritter]

I have always used RCBS dies and they seemed to work well but never had a real sense that the bullets were seating square in the case before seating. Once I tried a Lyman M it was like night and day. If you compared the two expanding stems side by side they almost look identical but the M die works and the RCBS sort of works. I ended up buying M dies for all of my calibers and now everything I load seats square. I use a Hornady LnL and never liked the way the powder through expander worked.
Stu

[newton]

Interesting. Thanks for sharing. I guess if a guy had some real precise measuring devices he could identify what the difference is.

[stu1ritter]

I'll measure them up later and post it to the 1/10,000th.
Stu

[Char-Gar]

There is in every seating die a section in the die body that aligns the bullet with the case mouth. The size of this determines how much wobble there is in the bullet as it is seated. The size of this alignment section varies from make to make of dies and probably from vintage to vintage of the same make. RCBS on the average seems to be the tightest with Lyman seeming to be the loosest.

Which it comes to reloading, fast and precise often do not work together. Multi-fuction dies also often give up the precision of one function to accommodate another.

Like many others, I prefer the M type expanders with their two steps. However like all mass produced items, there can be issues on concentrically in the expander and it's threads and the hole and threads in the die body. Even with all the variable, I still prefer the M type expander, if for no other reason that you don't have to balance the bullet on top of a bell as it is seated.

[stu1ritter]

OK, looks like the M die opens up the very top of the case a bit more than the RCBS. In the long primary stage the RCBS is bigger at .44980 compared to the M at .44950. Then the M leaves a bigger opening for seating the bullet in the case with .45415 compared to the RCBS at .45355 which is why it is easier to start square. It was always a wee bit hard to start my .452's into the .4535 case neck but the .452's start well and square in the .45415's.
Stu

[DR Owl Creek]

I've used a lot of different types and brands of dies. The Lees always seemed to me to have a lot more play, or "slop" than most of the others. For rifle rounds in particular, this was a problem. I've switched over to Hornady dies for all of my basic loading dies, filling in with RCBS, Redding, and L. E. Wilson for certain specialty dies.

One of the things I liked about the Hornady dies was the sliding alignment sleeve to keep the bullets and loaded rounds as concentric as possible. The sliding sleeve helps, but you still need to have the case expanded and flared adequately to receive the bullet, and also seat the bullet straight in the case mouth to begin with.

The Hornady seating dies often come with two different stems to fit the bullet. Their 45 ACP die comes with one stem for flat point bullets, and one that's more tapered for round nose type bullets. These will also help in keeping the bullets straight.

The Hornady pistol dies use a TiN coated bushing in their sizing dies instead of a carbide ring pressed into them, like many other dies. These TiN bushings fit flush with the base of the die, and you can set the dies so they come into contact with the shell holder or shell plate, and have the press "cam over" without worry about cracking the TiN bushing like you would with a brittle carbide ring. This also allows you to size a case a little further down toward the case head, which is a plus on certain cartridges like the 40 S&W, which some times develop a bulge near the case head. This feature almost eliminates the need for one of those "bulge buster" dies like some people use on the 40 S&W.

Hornady also has a "limited lifetime warranty" on their dies. The fine print says they are "guaranteed to never break or wear out from normal use". The only Hornady die I ever had a problem with was my 45 ACP TiN sizing die, which after many, many, 1000's of rounds over about 7 years of heavy use started leaving scratches on the cases. I think what happened was the polishing rouge from my treated walnut shell tumbling media I've always used finally built up in the recess between the top of the TiN bushing and the body of the die, causing some wear there. I called Hornady to see what they could do about it. The tech I talked to said to send it in and they would check it out. About two weeks later, I got a brand new sizing die in the mail, free of charge. I think Hornady's customer service is first class.

Hornady is still running their promotion, where you get a certificate for a free box of jacketed bullets with each die set purchase. That's probably at least a $25.00+ bonus for buying one of their die sets. I don't think you can go wrong with their products.

Dave

[newton]

Yea, the Lee's do have some movement to them. I have only ever used their dies being a new reloader and wanting to get into it without breaking the budget. I have yet to have one problem with all the die sets I have. This is a first. It may be a combination of boolit, die, and caliber. I am not sure I will ever know for an absolute. I just want the easiest way to fix the problem, which seems for now to just be more precise on my setting the boolit in the case mouth.

If I had not spent so much lately on stuff I would buy the Hornady dies. But for now I am going to have to limp along. I'll take more time to seat them as straight as possible before they enter the die body. Maybe in a few months I will. I do like the thought of the alignment sleeve if nothing else. If I used jacketed bullets then it would be a no brainer to go ahead and buy a set. I could sell my Lee dies and come out even.

Thanks for the measurements stu, I am going to take a closer look at my mouth flare and try to measure it myself. Maybe I can modify it to allow a deeper seating. I have to wonder if a lot of this is due to the tumble lube grooves on the boolit. I have never loaded this type of boolit before. All the rest have regular grooves which seem to have a lot more bearing surface compared to the TL design. Or at least they have a longer bearing surface if that makes sense.

[Char-Gar]

Precision machining tolerances cost more than sloppy machining tolerances. Slip and slide and wobble come cheap.

I have always held the opinion that new folks starting into reloading should save up their quarters a little longer and buy high end dies, presses and other equipment. Getting in cheap means frustration and problems and the eventual replacement of low end stuff with high end stuff. Patience cost nothing, but impatience cost much more in the long run.

For many, many people quick and cheap equals better. However my experience over a lifetime has proven that not to be true.

[1bluehorse]

Char-Gar, I really like the first paragraph in your reply......there are a lot of people who believe that there is a way to "magically" construct something cheaper using lesser materials than others and do it to the same standards of quality....not just reloading items.....while these items may work they "usually" will not give the same results as a better tool in longevity, ease of use, and quality of finished product....If I may, I will finish with your Disclaimer:

[newton]

For me, being cheap is the way to find out if I like something well enough to invest more into it. If I don't, then I can back out without much loss. If I like it, then I can move forward. But that's me. It takes a lot to frustrate me. In fact, people frustrate me more than inanimate objects do. lol

Again, to me, the sensible thing to do when your looking at products is to see that there are ones that cost X amount, and others that cost Y amount. If X is more than Y, then there usually is a reason(not always the case though). So, when I buy Y, because I only want to invest Y amount, then I only expect Y worth of product.

I suppose there are those out there that buy Y and expect X amount of product, I just don't.

Don't get me wrong in all of this. I like my Lee dies a lot. And the ONLY reason I would buy other dies is to get something that I am specifically looking for. For loading regular old ammo, for fun shooting and hunting, Lee has NEVER once let me down or made me mad. It stinks that this issue with the boolit seating crooked has come up, but it is just one of those things in life you have to deal with.

I guess I am the type in life that was never really handed much and was left to work things out on my own. Of course, this has been very beneficial over the years and I am grateful. I understand quality, and when I want quality I get quality. But at the same time I understand practicality, and most of my life revolves around that.

[Char-Gar]

For me, being cheap is the way to find out if I like something well enough to invest more into it. If I don't, then I can back out without much loss. If I like it, then I can move forward. But that's me. It takes a lot to frustrate me. In fact, people frustrate me more than inanimate objects do. lol

Again, to me, the sensible thing to do when your looking at products is to see that there are ones that cost X amount, and others that cost Y amount. If X is more than Y, then there usually is a reason(not always the case though). So, when I buy Y, because I only want to invest Y amount, then I only expect Y worth of product.

I suppose there are those out there that buy Y and expect X amount of product, I just don't.

Don't get me wrong in all of this. I like my Lee dies a lot. And the ONLY reason I would buy other dies is to get something that I am specifically looking for. For loading regular old ammo, for fun shooting and hunting, Lee has NEVER once let me down or made me mad. It stinks that this issue with the boolit seating crooked has come up, but it is just one of those things in life you have to deal with.

I guess I am the type in life that was never really handed much and was left to work things out on my own. Of course, this has been very beneficial over the years and I am grateful. I understand quality, and when I want quality I get quality. But at the same time I understand practicality, and most of my life revolves around that.

I have had to work for every things in life as did my family. Therefore a dollar is a very big thing to me. I don't spend them unwisely nor do I buy anything before I had done my research and know the quality of all choices. I am just funny that way.

I got into handloading in 1958 because I liked to shoot and that was the only way I could shoot as much as I wanted. I talked to my elders who knew about such things and selected my equipment for quality and longevity. I am still using some of that equipment 57 years later.

The Lee Loader was about the only things made with the Lee name on it and it held little interest for me. When Lee broadened it's line some years later, I saw the chance to save some money on my next set of die. I was not happy with what I got and the same can be said for the one and only Lee press I ever bought.

I have no quarrel with the fellow who wants some "starter" reloading equipment as it is his money and therefore his choice. But, given the choice, I would not spend money on starter equipment. If a fellow doesn't learn a few things in 57 years of reloading, he isn't paying attention. I have been paying attention and that is one thing I have learned.

[newton]

I guess I just feel like for the price the quality of Lee stuff is perfect. I have not bought one item from Lee that I felt I over paid for, but a lot of that is due to the fact that most of Lee stuff is half of what you can get it from other places. lol

But with that said, I can almost guarantee, that when I do buy the set of Hornady dies for the 45acp, I will feel the same way. But that's only because I am wanting that extra little help in keeping the boolit straight as its seated.

I should mention that I use a RCBS press to seat my boolits as I found it had less play than the Lee press I have. That is to say there is a more solid 'wall' to stop against ensuring your not running the case in the die any further than you want. With the Lee, there was a softer wall and I often found myself having shorter OAL than I wanted because of it. But that is the cheapest of the cheapest presses available and is perfect for sizing, expanding, and sizing boolits.

[Tom W.]

Oh yes, I've been down that road,too. I've since traded or sold most all of the Lee products except a lot of bullet molds and a few sizers. RCBS got most of my money, as did Redding for my rifle dies. I do have one Hornady die set and like it just fine. If you like to load and cast bullets the Lee pots and molds are good, their 6 cavity mold is something I should have gotten years ago. Their dies, however, while loading ammo well, still most often than not gave me all kinds of fits. After selling them off and adding just a few more dollars,the replacements are still rocking along. And the new RCBS dies that I bought last month come with an "M" style die,instead of the older flairing die.

[MtGun44]

Have used many Hornady die sets, but not in .45 ACP. They have a floating sleeve
that aligns the boolit to that case pretty accurately before seating it.

Fine quality dies, with a "benchrest seater die" included free with every set, rather
than for a double price with Redding or Forster/Bonanza.

Bill

[RobS]

I believe NOE makes powder through expanders for the Lee dies that are like the Lyman M dies. May look into that if you want to seat a boolit straight. I don't know if these actually allow powder through or not but since the die body is used and a person is replacing the factory plug.............. I would think powder would pass through.

[freebullet]

The ptx expander isn't the best and it sounds like it's not expanding enough.

I've had no problems with hornady dies. I will tell you that sliding bullet seater can get hung up. Most likely from the factory anti rust coating not being removed or lube build up in the seater stem. When that happens you won't get the self centering effect from the stem.

[Firebricker]

IIRC the Lee dies just flares the case mouth where an "M" type die expands to uniform diameter and flares. There are some good discussions on this in the reloading equipment section. The Dillion is a "M" type that can charge the case at same time and I think Lyman also started making them. As far as the Hornady seating die I only have one for .223 and it works very well especially on the smaller not as easy to grab size bullets. Fb

[newton]

I should have taken pictures of the die when I took it apart, but I failed to do so this weekend. I did take it apart and clean it good, but I believe Firebrick hit it on the head that it does not expand, but just flare. I have noticed some of my brass having an uneven mouth. I have yet to run any of them through a trimmer, as I have always heard that 45acp actually shrinks.

Regardless, the Lee die does not seem to expand uniformly. I loaded a few more(waiting on my recent powder purchase to load a lot) this weekend and when I set the boolit in the case it does rock back and forth a tiny bit - as if it is not solidly making contact around the full parameter of the case mouth.

However, when I took my time, and set the boolit in straight, and ran it up the die, it seated perfect each time. So in essence, it does look like the ptx die is the main culprit. I am not sure if a glove like fit from a custom seating stem will align the boolit, but its always a thing to try.

This is one reason I do like the thought of the Hornady die though. I could just set the boolit on top of the flared case, lightly, and the sleeve would keep the boolit aligned. So in the end I need to either get different dies, or die parts, or just take my time setting the boolit on top of the flared case. I guess its up to interpretation which is easiest/best way. I can say for now, until more cash flow, I'll be taking my time setting the boolits straight.

[Love Life]

I honestly don't understand how you are having such issues. I just flop my bullets on the case mouth and then crank the handle. I use lee dies, RCBS, Dillon, and stuff, multiple presses, mixed HS brass, mixed batch dies

Set the bullet in the case mouth and run it up. Easy peasy.

[newton]

I honestly don't understand how you are having such issues. I just flop my bullets on the case mouth and then crank the handle. I use lee dies, RCBS, Dillon, and stuff, multiple presses, mixed HS brass, mixed batch dies

Set the bullet in the case mouth and run it up. Easy peasy.

That's how it is with all the other dies I have, just seems to be this one. I'd say its because of it being 45 caliber, but my 45colt dies do not do this. I am really leaning toward the expanding die being the issue.

[Love Life]

Maybe. Is it still causing your brass to have an out of spec bulge after reloading?

[newton]

Maybe. Is it still causing your brass to have an out of spec bulge after reloading?

I have not noticed it as much with the 2R boolit, like I did with the TC boolit, but it does produce a bulge when it is visibly seated at an angle - and not one at all when seated straight. I notice the angle more on these boolits than the others I guess because of the shoulder on the 2R are more sharp. It was hard to see if the TC boolits were seated crooked or not unless it was really crooked.

Whether it is out of spec I do not know. I have not measured any. I run everything through the FCD now so I have no worries about that anymore. Interesting thing is though, with the these rounds and the FCD, if the boolit is seated straight then there is almost no detectable sizing being done by the carbide ring. But that's all a different subject that this.

[Love Life]

Hmmm. As long as it's working then run with it.

[white eagle]

Precision machining tolerances cost more than sloppy machining tolerances. Slip and slide and wobble come cheap.

I have always held the opinion that new folks starting into reloading should save up their quarters a little longer and buy high end dies, presses and other equipment. Getting in cheap means frustration and problems and the eventual replacement of low end stuff with high end stuff. Patience cost nothing, but impatience cost much more in the long run.

For many, many people quick and cheap equals better. However my experience over a lifetime has proven that not to be true.

some real good advice there

[freebullet]

Try an expander die vs. the ptx. You could also try not setting the boolit in the mouth but rather hold the boolit at the entrance of the seater die and move your fingers as the case mouth enters the die. That helped when I was loading 204 bullets.

[newton]

I talked with Lee, laid it all out in detail, and they said it sounded like a custom bullet stem would be a fix for it. So I guess I will send in a boolit, even though they make the mold I use.....maybe their custom dept doesn't work with their standard dept? Who knows. I could see how a stem fit to go over the boolit nose like a glove would keep it straight up and down though, I'm just hoping that's what I'll get back in the mail. At that point, I would just have to make sure that I did not press the boolit too hard into the case to allow the stem to be able to move it adequately. Looks like it will be $12 total, so that's not too bad. But here is where I could really see how getting the Hornady dies in the first place would be better in the long run. After buying this stem, I will be within a few dollars of what the Hornady cost over the Lee.

[newton]

Try an expander die vs. the ptx. You could also try not setting the boolit in the mouth but rather hold the boolit at the entrance of the seater die and move your fingers as the case mouth enters the die. That helped when I was loading 204 bullets.

I'll try holding the boolit like that. It will be a while before the new stem comes in. But if the stem fails, then I am just going to cut my losses and go with the Hornady die set.

[Tom W.]

If you DO try that method, be very careful that you don't cut your fingers......don't ask...[smilie=1: