Swage press kit

[45lcrevolver]

How many of you would be interested in a swage press kit? It would consist of all the parts drilled, tapped, and machined. All you would need is to weld the bottom part and get the bolts and bushings. Ohh and finish your plates with a powder coat or finish off your liking. You can always leave it unfinished and just keep it nicely oiled too.

Now ow I can ofer a finished press too but the price would go up so it may be better to just do the kit.

what do you guys think? It will be a easy kit to put together for those that don't have th capability to do all the maching work.

[freebullet]

I might be. Got any pics? How much $?

[45lcrevolver]

I don't have any pics since they are not made yet. The lead time would be about 4-5 weeks to get a run made. The press would be made the same as the plans in the stickies. Price would be around $350 plus shipping.

[rolltide]

What would be the advantage of your kit over buying a swaging press with a cast iron toggle (not welded) and already put together and finished like the Sea Girt press from RCE for $295.00?

Roll Tide

[45lcrevolver]

Well this press would be bigger and stronger. This press is more comparable to the Corbin mega mite press. Now are you thinking that the toggle being pre-welded would be more appealing?

Plus you will be able to finish the press in any color/style you like. You could do hydro film, cerra koate, powder coat, or any finish suitable for steel.

[Cane_man]

depends on price point and value

[45lcrevolver]

Please elaborate.

[xman777]

I think he's asking you to do that. Right now this sounds like an idea rather than a product. What exactly is this kit? What does it do? How does it help me swage better/faster/cheaper? What will it cost? Is the perceived value worth it? And most importantly what does it look like?

[Cane_man]

and does it come with free shipping?! lol

[goblism]

What dies would it be made to work with? Will you sell adapters to Corbin or RCE, reloading, etc?

[45lcrevolver]

I guess the best way to put things into perspective is that the kit will basically be a mega mite clone. Very identical configurations but at more economical standpoint. As far as the adapters for the dies, I can look into manufacturing them. I can also look into making an adapter for a shell holder for regular reloading. I may turn to hot rolled steel to make the total package more economical. At the end of it all, it will be a solid press for all your swaging needs.

What I was thinking of doing is making one and sending it to someone the community trust for revision of craftsmanship and overall value. I'm sure that for the money you will receive a phenomenal piece of equipment.

[goblism]

I am interested

[jpsgunworks]

I'd go for one.

[BT Sniper]

If I may offer a few words of advise....... Not having any knowledge or experience with the OP's abilities or offer I don't mean to knock or praise his abilities but a couple things need to be considered here.

1. History! More then once a previous member here has offered swage dies or equipment at a "value" price. Kaine, Edge, and HG Firearms comes to mind.

2. Vendor Sponsorship! supporting those that support our site. Tim "UP North" has already proven his abilities to make a good product and establish his credentials in offering this press. I'm a big advocate of vendor sponsorship for those offering products here, it shows appreciation for this site and it's members. Just something to consider when and if a new member's potential business ideas take off here.

In my opinion it would be best for anyone offering products to post a picture of the "exact" product/products offered and the ability of this product to do what the seller says it can. If I was to offer a set of swage dies I would expect to see a pic of the exact dies, the bullets it makes, the bullet in a loaded round and the potential of the bullets on paper or in the field. For a swage press offer I would like to see the kit and the final form in action just to prove everything works as advertised. This proves the abilities of the one offering the product and the abilities of the product it's self. A lot is learned from getting a product all the way to working order vs. what is gained from simply looking at the plans. All sorts of factors involved in attempting to determine time frames and cost/offered prices.

Vendor Sponsors all start somewhere when it comes to making and offering products so I offer my advise to the OP and the potential customers, please do your research into the history of previous offered products and claims made by other failed offers and make sure neither of you fall into the same situation they did.

A quality swage press kit at a good price would be great but for goodness sake please show detailed pics of the exact product offered in kit form and the final form in action before offering any for sale and look into vendor sponsorship if several sales are expected.

BT

[45lcrevolver]

I couldn't agree more. this thread was more to see if a press kit is something people look for. this is not a thread to sell anything. the kits are not even into production. i have access to milling machines and laser cutters and a state of the art cnc machine. all i wanted was to test the waters per say to see if there was potential before i invested my time or material in something that no one would be interested in. id even go as far as saying that id be more than willing to send you the kit for your review if you would accept.

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

I think if you could offer a quality product at a good price I think people would buy. Like you said, it may take sending one or two out for reviews. I have a few videos on YouTube and if you sent me one I would be more than happy to make a few videos, swaging 22s, 40s, 45s, and 50s. I would then gladly send your press back to you upon completion of the videos and honest review.

The swaging industry is an interesting one. Many have tried and few have really succeeded. Lots of members on here alone have been taken for lots of money by previous die makers that didn't have what it takes. So, don't take this the wrong way, but you are going to have to really prove both yourself and your product. I personally only wish you the best and hope this works out for you. I have seen lots of ideas come and go on this forum...and it seems a smaller percentage of them "work out".

Good luck!

[MrWolf]

BT made an excellent post. I and a few others have invested in someone starting out and after payment they were never heard from again. His comments about site vendors is very valid as he and others have made a decision to not only sell a product but support their workmanship and support this site.

[xman777]

I'll echo the scammer and scumbag scenarios. Seems sometimes there's more people trying to capitalize on this market than can keep up with the demands of the customers. Why not try and make something? But you will have to win the hearts of us all :groner:

[45lcrevolver]

i will make one and send it to ICH for review. after he reviews it he can send it to bt? then we can go from there. the kit will need no machine work,drilling,or milling. it will almost be ready to assemble with the exception of the finish. which will consist of sanding, degrease, then apply finish. im still debating whether to weld the toggle or not. take into consideration that some people may approve of my welds while others will say that they are no good. so to avoid this dilemma i may just end up not welding and letting the customer weld it to his/her liking. the fit and finish will be done. i may even go as far as pressing the bushing in. so basically this kit with save you hours of work with only 1-2 hours left of work for welding and applying the finish to the product.

[tiger762]

If I may make a suggestion, given that you have access to a CNC vertical mill, how 'bout mill a solid block of 4140 into a toggle, with the holes drilled for the pins. Ream/hone the holes. Send off to heat treat. Take whatever the DIY swage kit plans call for, and work off of that. I would not trust weldment. A solid block of 4140 or multiple smaller blocks that bolt together would be better, I think.

Oh, and I don't think that leaving the parts unfinished is doing the customer any favors. I have never bought something and wished it were still in the white, to apply my own funkadelic paint pattern. It's purely for the manufacturer's benefit as it is one less step they have to perform before shipment.

Just my thoughts...

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

That sounds good to me. If you can please make sure the ram has approximately the same clearance from the top plate as a standard reloading press (when the ram is in the top most position [when the handle is down]). This way it will work with my dies, and of course Brian's dies too. The dies have quite a bit of adjustment from the threads, but I would hate for my punches to not make it up in the die. Also, I have threaded base punches and they are 1/2 - 20.

[BT Sniper]

"If you can please make sure the ram has approximately the same clearance from the top plate as a standard reloading press (when the ram is in the top most position [when the handle is down])."

The preferred distance for use with BTSniper dies is the same as the Lee Classic Cast Press with my ram top installed, this distance is 1.00". This will soon become my "standard" as dealing with the .25" clearance of a standard reloading press (rcbs, hornady, etc.) and the 3.35" of the WH or SG press is time consuming on my end and tends to delay orders.

If one intends to build their own swage press and wishes to use BTSniper swage dies it would be to your benefit to build the press with the 1.00" clearance as described above.

BT

[BT Sniper]

Before you guys get too involved in this venture I would be interested to know what sort of tooling and projects the OP (Original Poster that started the thread) has built and/or machined in the past (establishes qualifications, abilities and credibility), has the OP swaged any bullets before or familiar with the process, is the OP the one that will be doing the machining or out will the machine work be out sourced to others? I know the OP mentioned he has access to these machines but......???

Again I'm not nocking the OPs abilities or claims as to his skills with machine work or swaging but I would think this is certainly info that should be know before jumping in with any purchases.

You guys may feel that I am expressing my concerns and opinions as a Castboolits Vendor in an attempt to limit competition, or that I may feel threatened by additional swage product competition, simply not so and in fact quite the opposite, I am trying to help and inform both the customers and the suppliers of potential new products so we may avoid any future train wrecks that we have experienced in the past. Had some of these questions and information been brought up in the past experiences maybe it would have helped the outcome for both the customer and new suppliers.

Good shooting and swage on!

BT

[45lcrevolver]

If I may make a suggestion, given that you have access to a CNC vertical mill, how 'bout mill a solid block of 4140 into a toggle, with the holes drilled for the pins. Ream/hone the holes. Send off to heat treat. Take whatever the DIY swage kit plans call for, and work off of that. I would not trust weldment. A solid block of 4140 or multiple smaller blocks that bolt together would be better, I think.

Oh, and I don't think that leaving the parts unfinished is doing the customer any favors. I have never bought something and wished it were still in the white, to apply my own funkadelic paint pattern. It's purely for the manufacturer's benefit as it is one less step they have to perform before shipment.

Just my thoughts...

because that would take manufacturing cost way up.

Ny me leaving the parts unfinished cuts back on your cost. Also if I was to finish it then it wouldn't be a kit would it. It would just be a finished press.

[tiger762]

Ny me leaving the parts unfinished cuts back on your cost.

That's fine, so market it that way. No one is doing me a favor by leaving it in the white is all I was getting at.


Also if I was to finish it then it wouldn't be a kit would it. It would just be a finished press.

You could call it whatever you want. The toggle link is what will stop most from even trying to start the DIY press. The plates and the other links are trivial to make. The ram looks like it would be the second most difficult part to make. If you have access to CNC, offer either one or both to the DIY-er.

Be warned that when you solicit opinion you're not going to always get what you want to hear. At the end of the day, you're competing with the RCECO Sea Girt. Again, just my unabridged thoughts.

[BT Sniper]

You also have three or four different sets of quality swage dies out there, all different and require different type threads, base punches and die sizes (not including hydraulic presses), RCE, Corbin, Blackmon and BTSniper. All work differently and require specific tooling or requirement's from the press. Which dies will work in this offered press?

BT

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

If I may make a suggestion, given that you have access to a CNC vertical mill, how 'bout mill a solid block of 4140 into a toggle, with the holes drilled for the pins. Ream/hone the holes. Send off to heat treat. Take whatever the DIY swage kit plans call for, and work off of that. I would not trust weldment. A solid block of 4140 or multiple smaller blocks that bolt together would be better, I think.


Oh, and I don't think that leaving the parts unfinished is doing the customer any favors. I have never bought something and wished it were still in the white, to apply my own funkadelic paint pattern. It's purely for the manufacturer's benefit as it is one less step they have to perform before shipment.


Just my thoughts...


because that would take manufacturing cost way up.

Ny me leaving the parts unfinished cuts back on your cost. Also if I was to finish it then it wouldn't be a kit would it. It would just be a finished press.

When I read this thread yesterday, I wanted to reply about customers welding a toggle link, but I abstained.

Now that tiger762 mentioned machining the Toggle, I thought that was a great idea.

So, now my thoughts on Welding...
When it comes to something like a Swage Press, Besides just needing to be heavy duty, it needs to be precision also, IMHO, it'd take a highly skilled tradesman to weld the toggle. Someone who is knowledgeable with the type of metal you end up using, how to avoid warping and such.

I'm not very knowledgable on steel types, but I'd think there would be a ideal type of steel to use for this, right? I recently re-read ANeat's sticky and I see he used cold rolled 1018 steel, I assume he had a reason for that ?
http://www.diehlsteel.com/products/1018-cold-roll.html

[tiger762]

The choice is somewhere between these two extremes:

1. Low-carbon hot-rolled A36 / architectural that can be easily welded but not heat treated.
2. High-carbon cold-rolled 4140 that cannot be welded but is easily heat treated.

I was thinking the crankshaft out of a small gas engine supported at the ends by bronze bushings might be a way to go. Something close to a 2" stroke, if such an engine exists in large enough quantity...

[clodhopper]

I am a potential customer. But I will not volunteer to be first.

I do have some of BTSnipers dies I also have RCE dies, 4" and 1" clearance in the same press would be
a positive feature.
Welding the toggle link is beyond my capabilities, But I can get it done by a friend who is skilled.
If it comes in the white, it will get powder coated zombie green

[tiger762]

As I swage cores for 45cal, I've wanted a toggle with the bare minimum stroke, like 1.25" or so, to get Earth-shattering mechanical advantage for dealing with lead harder than pure lead. Crushing 0.418" diameter lead so that it bleeds out a 0.093" hole is no joke...

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

Hey Tiger, for the sake of your CS and PF dies your should probably try to get some pure lead. It's also much easier to bleed off too! ;)

[rolltide]

I think the welded toggle is the killer on this idea for reasons stated above. Even if you had a solid toggle, the Sea Girt is cheaper and has more than enough power. The Walnut Hill has equivalent power and is not much more than your kit and is completely assembled and reliable and can be used for both swaging and reloading. I would rather buy either one of the RCE presses than anyone's kit at the price you suggest, even if it had a solid toggle. The price of the kit would need to be half the price of the Sea Girt to even start consideration of the kit, and then only if I absolutely no way, now how, could come up with enough money for a Sea Girt. That just one man's opinion.

I don't want to be a downer, just trying to give you an honest opinion so you can make in informed decision.

Roll Tide

[tiger762]

Man, you're not joking. I had cast up a bunch of Lee 401-175's that came out around 188 grains 'cuz they assume a lighter alloy whereas I'm using something that on paper anyway approaches the density of pure lead. Might have just a pinch of antimony in it.

So if I remember from one of my mechanical engineering classes, the square of the ratio of the diameters is the figure of merit. For core swaging for 224, we have a finished core diameter of 0.191" and a bleed hole of 0.078" (assuming RCECO dies, not sure about others). For the 45cal, the finished core diameter is 0.418" and the bleed hole is 0.093".

So (0.191/0.078) squared is 5.996.
And (0.418/.093)^2 is 20.202.

I then expect the 45cal core swage process to be about 3.36 times the effort, all else being equal (20.202/5.996). Making cores for 224 I think even wheel weight is possible although a lot of what I have is about BHN 8-10, according to the pencil test. A 2B pencil scratches it, whereas a 3B just glides over the surface leaving a pencil mark. An expedient way to get an idea of lead hardness. I highly recommend it, as well as reading this thread here:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?75455-Testing-hardness-with-pencils




Hey Tiger, for the sake of your CS and PF dies your should probably try to get some pure lead. It's also much easier to bleed off too! ;)

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

Silly question, but are you using swage lube? LOL

[tiger762]

Yeah, when I got the Walnut Hill and 224 dies I also got a pint of swage lube. Looks like lanolin / castor oil mix. I wear disposable gloves from Harbor Freight while swaging. I have the cast cores in a plastic tub. Add some lube. Knead it until they're all very lightly coated. I think a 0.125" bleed hole would make all the difference in the world..