Thermostats and melting pots

[Blackwater]

Who has the best thermostat on a melting pot? My little Lee Magnum Melter has to be turned down as casting progresses, or the lead temp gets higher as the pot level drains down. Not a really big deal, but it's always a guessing game as to how much to turn it down. I'm getting persnickety as I age, I guess, but pot temp DOES affect the quality of our castings, and a really good thermostat would help significantly in easing production and in achieving great consistency in the final product. Anybody done any tests here?

[Tatume]

I just watch the bullets. They should be lightly frosted. If the frosting is heavy, turn it down a bit, and maybe cast slightly slower. If the bullets become shiny either the pot or the mold is getting too cold. Turn it up a bit, and maybe cast a little bit faster.

[osteodoc08]

I just use a Lyman casting thermometer. When the pot is full, it will stay at 675-700 on the temp knob at 7. As it works it's way down, it gets turned down to a 3. Each unit being a bit different, I just glance at the thermometer now and then and adjust accordingly. If it gets to hot, I toss in a few sprues to cool it down.

[dragon813gt]

TelTrue, it's cheaper and the others are just rebranded versions. PID is the way to go if you want to not worry about chasing temp.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I just use a Lyman casting thermometer. When the pot is full, it will stay at 675-700 on the temp knob at 7. As it works it's way down, it gets turned down to a 3. Each unit being a bit different, I just glance at the thermometer now and then and adjust accordingly. If it gets to hot, I toss in a few sprues to cool it down.
THIS !
This has been what I have been doing (and probably almost everyone else) if they own a Lee melter. I was plenty happy with it, even with all the members here talking up the PID. I felt as if I were an artist or a scientist, constantly tweaking the dial.

But then...

Who has the best thermostat on a melting pot? My little Lee Magnum Melter has to be turned down as casting progresses, or the lead temp gets higher as the pot level drains down. Not a really big deal, but it's always a guessing game as to how much to turn it down. I'm getting persnickety as I age, I guess, but pot temp DOES affect the quality of our castings, and a really good thermostat would help significantly in easing production and in achieving great consistency in the final product. Anybody done any tests here?
...I built a PID. It really does make a difference. the PID holds the temp constant no matter what level of alloy remains in the pot. Now I can't speak for other brands, and...maybe the New Lyman 25Mag with PID will be the thing ??? I don't know ???

[10x]

THIS !
This has been what I have been doing (and probably almost everyone else) if they own a Lee melter. I was plenty happy with it, even with all the members here talking up the PID. I felt as if I were an artist or a scientist, constantly tweaking the dial.

But then...

...I built a PID. It really does make a difference. the PID holds the temp constant no matter what level of alloy remains in the pot. Now I can't speak for other brands, and...maybe the New Lyman 25Mag with PID will be the thing ??? I don't know ???

A PID temperature control unit is the best investment a bullet caster will make - It eliminates problems with alloy being too cold.
And when you have a problem, you can rule out alloy temperature as it will be spot on. Or the PID will tell you when it is too cold

PID units can be built for under $25.00 if you shop carefully on Aliexpress.
The kits that are there will need a 6" replacement thermocouple.
The one drawback is that some PID units come as Degrees C only and you will have to make a conversion chart. (Easy to do in a spreadsheet).

[RobS]

Rotometals (site sponsor up top on the forum) has a nice thermometer and there should be a castboolit discount code but I can't remember it right off hand.

A PID is nice though.

[RobS]

http://www.rotometals.com/SearchResults.asp?Search=thermometer

[cajun shooter]

The problem lies in the control that Lee uses in their pots, It's not very good as each new owner finds out. When I first started casting at the gun store where I was employed in 1970, they used several Lyman pots. I never had a problem with setting and keeping the temperature on any of these pots.
I had a Saeco pot for my own personal use and it also worked to perfection. It was not until I tried to use Lee pots that the problems started to show up. Lee uses a Reostat type of control and it's not that good. Lee has other problems that I will not get into now.
When I first purchased my RCBS Pro Melt I could not believe the accuracy of the Thermostat. I was able to retire my Tru thermometer as it always kept my lead at the 750 degree mark that I use. I wish that I could buy another one for the $200 I paid for my first one.
I'm now using my Wagge Pot as that is all I have left after selling off all of my other equipment because of some bad medical problems. I thought I would never be able to cast again, I'm glad that I kept my Wagge pot for ladle casting.
Lyman has built a new bottom pour 25 pound pot but it has had some production problems and the release date keeps getting extended. It's retail price is in the $250 range which will be a big boost for those like myself who are on fixed incomes. Later David

[cbrick]

Pot temp rising as the level of alloy decreases is simply the nature of the beast. All electric pots that are not PID controlled will do this. When the thermostat says turn on it produces the same heat whether the pot is 1/3 full or full, with less alloy to absorb that heat temp rises both faster and higher than if the pot were full before it switches off again.

PID control is well worth the cost for anyone that casts much and plans on continuing to cast.

Rick

[gray wolf]

No way I could afford a PID controller but I have very good results with the Tell true thermometer.

[bangerjim]

Thermostats are built into and are specific to the brand of pot you have. You cannot just willy nilly change out bi-metal t-stats. They are built in to the pot and are unique to each brand and model. If you need to change one out, you probably will need or order one for your model from the manufacturer.

banger

[cbrick]

Confusing? Who in this thread is talking about changing out the pot's factory thermostat?

Rick

[Echo]

I hate to get into this again - but I will. They aren't thermostats. They are controls. They DO NOT REACT to pot temperature! They simply control the amount of power being fed to the pot, and are calibrated (right...) to show the temperature that should be achieved on a full pot, given that amount of power. They control the amount of power by using the power going to the pot to activate the bimetal strip. As the current goes through the strip, the strip heats up, and springs away from contact, breaking the power to the heating element. As the strip cools down it retracts gradually, remaking the contact. Adjusting the knob in front adjusts the stress on the strip, adjusting the duty cycle. And we have to chase the temperature as the pot empties, which is why I try to keep my pot nearly full, as adding alloy to a nearly-full pot will lower the temp less than adding it to a nearly-empty pot.
And I haven't used my PID yet - ready to go, but...

[bangerjim]

YES.......it is an INFERRED temp reading......not exact.....but who really cares. My Lee 4-20 pots have cranked out thousands of perfect boolits for a very long time with only the bi-metal "whatever" and without the help of any digital controller.

And the OP was asking about different thermoSTATS not thermoMETERS. So, that is why I posted as I did. Correct "technical" terminology does count.

[smilie=w:

banger

[44man]

It is a bi-metal strip that bends with heat to open or close points. Technically it is a thermostat.
But I have been casting something for 64 years starting with sinkers and today the Lee has the best setup with a remote thermostat. It is not subject to direct pot heat. Sure it can change heat as the pot changes but I adjust my tempo as the pot empties. I scape the last ladle from the bottom before quitting.
The worst I have worked with are RCBS and Lyman pots to go against all said. They both have a long time from turn on to shut off and the reverse as the bi-metal strips are damaged from heat. I watched lead in the pots freeze before the pot turned on.
The PID is best as you control only voltage and amps to the pot but mine failed, they get extremely hot and a good one means I can buy two Lee pots.
You worry too much about the pot, adjust as you cast. I never change settings.

[bangerjim]

44.......I agree. Too many today are using the crutch of a PID controller to try to accomplish quality drops. I have had quality drops for a very looooooong time......relying on expertise and practice....and plain olde common sense.

PID's are akin to calculators........people are forgetting how to do simple math because they rely on calculators for EVERYTHING. I had a young gal at a cash register the other day that could not figure out my change from a $100 bill for a sale of $50 EXACTLY! She was frustrated becuse her calc was broke! OMG. What are we coming to????????

banger

[dragon813gt]

How is a PID a crutch. I've noticed that if you don't use/like something it seems to bad in your eyes. I'm sure most of us have cast quality bullets w/out one. It's one less thing to worry about when casting. You can focus on everything else. I don't see how this a bad thing.

I had a thermocouple break a few weeks back. Put a thermometer in the pot and kept on casting. I should have kept those bullets separated and weighed them. I'd be interested to see how the bell curve looks. Since I started using a PID most of the bullets drop w/in a .3 grain range. So that's +-.1 grain. Before it was more like +-.5 grains. Which is still acceptable for most shooting.

[cbrick]

And the OP was asking about different thermoSTATS not thermoMETERS. So, that is why I posted as I did. Correct "technical" terminology does count. banger

No, that is not what the OP asked, to save others the trouble of scrolling up the page here is what he did ask. Then in post #10 I explained why he is getting higher pot temps as he casts.


Who has the best thermostat on a melting pot? My little Lee Magnum Melter has to be turned down as casting progresses, or the lead temp gets higher as the pot level drains down. Not a really big deal, but it's always a guessing game as to how much to turn it down. I'm getting persnickety as I age, I guess, but pot temp DOES affect the quality of our castings, and a really good thermostat would help significantly in easing production and in achieving great consistency in the final product. Anybody done any tests here?


44.......I agree. Too many today are using the crutch of a PID controller to try to accomplish quality drops. I have had quality drops for a very looooooong time......relying on expertise and practice....and plain olde common sense.

PID's are akin to calculators........people are forgetting how to do simple math because they rely on calculators for EVERYTHING. I had a young gal at a cash register the other day that could not figure out my change from a $100 bill for a sale of $50 EXACTLY! She was frustrated becuse her calc was broke! OMG. What are we coming to???????? banger

So, to make sure I have this correct 1> Anyone using a PID is using a crutch. 2> Anyone using a PID has no common sense or expertise. Ok, got it. Oh, and 3> It's your way or the highway right?


How is a PID a crutch. I've noticed that if you don't use/like something it seems to bad in your eyes. I'm sure most of us have cast quality bullets w/out one. It's one less thing to worry about when casting. You can focus on everything else. I don't see how this a bad thing.

Precisely! There is nothing bad about it, it's simply one more available tool we can use and quite a viable one at that. Kinda like elecrtricity, casters use that new fangled thing to cast bullets also. OMG, what are we coming to?????????


It is a bi-metal strip that bends with heat to open or close points. Technically it is a thermostat.

But I have been casting something for 64 years starting with sinkers and today the Lee has the best setup with a remote thermostat. It is not subject to direct pot heat. Sure it can change heat as the pot changes but I adjust my tempo as the pot empties. I scape the last ladle from the bottom before quitting.

The worst I have worked with are RCBS and Lyman pots to go against all said. They both have a long time from turn on to shut off and the reverse as the bi-metal strips are damaged from heat. I watched lead in the pots freeze before the pot turned on.

The PID is best as you control only voltage and amps to the pot but mine failed, they get extremely hot and a good one means I can buy two Lee pots.

You worry too much about the pot, adjust as you cast. I never change settings.

Jim, that's pure nonsense and you know it. The worst pot is RCBS? Really? Are you sure you really want to say that?

For others reading this that would actually like to learn something, PIDs are a very worthwhile viable tool. For those that don't want to use a PID that's wonderful, don't! But to slam an extremely useful tool and insult those that use it or put RCBS in the toilet simply to try and make your point is absurdity.

Rick

[reddoggm]

I picked up on PID,s about a year ago and they ARE the way to go but it is nice to have a GOOD thermometer also You can do a google search for a Tel-Tru LT225R BIG Green Egg, around 23 bucks most places can,t go wrong with it
DOGG!!!

[JohnH]

I'vde never used a thermometer, and can't tell that it has handicapped my casting. I have the Lee 20 ponder bottom pour and consider it a lousy tool but it melts metal and doesn't cost a years worth of pistol powder and primers. Over the years I've developed a very simple method of melt temp regulation. I make up ingots using the cast iron bread pans which look like an ear of corn. These can be had at most any flea market for $10 or so and make an ingot that weighs right at 1 pound. Once my pot and molds are up to temp and I begin casting I will lay an ingot on the back of the pot to preheat it, and as the melt level drops about 1/2" or so, simply take a pair of pliers, slip the preheated ingot into the melt, lay another on the pot and keep casting. Keeping the pot full like this goes a long way toward a stable melt temperature. I did this using the Lee 10 pounder too. I have a PID a friend gave me for other purposes (keeping track of wort temps while making beer) but I've just not used it for melt temp control. I don't think a PID is nessicary, folk cast for years without such tech. I'm not anti tech, but newer folk to this need to understand how to run a system that is not tech savvy. Learning how to judge a melts quality (and that of an alloy's) by how it casts is as useful as having a PID control a temp for you. No doubt casting is highly temp dependent. No doubt precision control of temperature aids casting quality, but not having a PID is not going to make it impossible to get good quality boolits.

[bangerjim]

Rick.......John above understands what was saying and did NOT read the kitchen sink into what I was trying to say.

OMG! You really WERE drinking the west coast koolaid today.

Give me a break

[Springfield]

For those guys who think a PID is a crutch , I'd like to know if your car not only has a manual transmission, but also manual spark advance? I cast hundreds of thousands of bullets without the PID but it just makes one less thing to think about. This isn't my job, it's a hobby, so I do it to enjoy it, not see how difficult I can make things and still get things done. Heck, I have kids for that!

[cbrick]

I don't think a PID is nessicary, folk cast for years without such tech. I'm not anti tech, but newer folk to this need to understand how to run a system that is not tech savvy. Learning how to judge a melts quality (and that of an alloy's) by how it casts is as useful as having a PID control a temp for you. No doubt casting is highly temp dependent. No doubt precision control of temperature aids casting quality, but not having a PID is not going to make it impossible to get good quality boolits.

Of course not, nobody has said anything any different. Not even remotely.

A PID is a useful tool. Not mandatory but if your going to look at it like that neither is electricity mandatory. A camp fire will work, it did for an awful long time before electric pots came along. Since we can get good quality bullets without electricity why bother with it? Oh yeah, the convenience. Hhmmm . . . A PID is also very convenient! And useful. And worthwhile.

I run two pots, a Magma with PID and one of those worst ever RCBS pots that's over 35 years old and never missed a beat without a PID.

Rick

[cbrick]

Rick.......John above understands what was saying and did NOT read the kitchen sink into what I was trying to say.

OMG! You really WERE drinking the west coast koolaid today.

Give me a break

Keep up with the insults, not only is it your style but in your own mind your very good at it.

Rick

[TXGunNut]

Don't have a PID, don't need one. Thought the same about hot plates but kept an eye out for one anyway. When one finally made it's way to my loading room it became my new favorite tool. As soon as I figure I'm smart enough to use a PID I'll probably get one.
Come to think of it I have an old RCBS pot that needs rebuilding. May just make that part of the project.

[JohnH]

Of course not, nobody has said anything any different. Not even remotely.

A PID is a useful tool. Not mandatory but if your going to look at it like that neither is electricity mandatory. A camp fire will work, it did for an awful long time before electric pots came along. Since we can get good quality bullets without electricity why bother with it? Oh yeah, the convenience. Hhmmm . . . A PID is also very convenient! And useful. And worthwhile.

I run two pots, a Magma with PID and one of those worst ever RCBS pots that's over 35 years old and never missed a beat without a PID.

Rick OK, I'd hate to be accused of not having an open mind (so long as my brains don't have to fall out ;) ) So perhaps the question which needs asked at this point in the conversation (I fear we have drifted off the course the OP set...) is this... Just how did a PID change your casting? In what ays did it make it better, in what ways did it simplify your routine. Casting is not only temperature driven, it's equipment driven. I couldn't use the "art" I've learned using my present set up, with the Coleman stove, 2 quart cast iron pot, Lyman dipper tools I started off with. Heck, I'd be pretty challenged to go back to that system. I could get up to speed pretty quick, better than a newbie, but I wouldn't do it by choice. Obviously tools have made a difference, so perhaps what I'm after here is what did using a PID bring to your casting you wouldn't by choice do without.

[TXGunNut]

Obviously tools have made a difference, so perhaps what I'm after here is what did using a PID bring to your casting you wouldn't by choice do without. -JohnH

Don't have a PID but I know the answer: consistency. It's a precious commodity in casting, loading and shooting. A PID improves consistency and/or makes it easier to attain.

[cbrick]

No, your brains don't have to fall out. :mrgreen:

Even if you have the most consistent casting rhythm possible your mold temp is still going to vary simply because the alloy temp that your pouring into it is varying (see post #10 in this thread). Can good bullets still be cast? Yes, of course they can. I did it that way for decades, still do with the RCBS pot. With the PID you simply push a button until the readout is at your desired melt temp. The other readout is the actual melt temp. The PID will cycle the pot on and off automatically and keep the melt temp within just a very few degrees of your set temp.

That's it. No adding lead to cool it off, no constantly changing alloy temp, no fussing at all, just cast. It's particularly useful for when your casting for accuracy, velocity etc where you want to keep bullet weight variation at a minimum. It's simply easier, set the pot and forget it. I use the RCBS pot for my soft alloy where I mostly cast low velocity, short range HP's for the 45 ACP & such. For many, many years it was my only pot. For most everything else, rifle, long range revolver match bullets etc I use the 40 pound PID controlled Magma pot.

It's much like your reference to going back to the Coleman stove, you don't because of the convenience of the way your doing it now. The PID is like that, it's another big step forward and far more convenient. And as a big plus . . . Have you ever known a bullet caster/handloader that didn't like his toys especially when those toys are beneficial on several counts?

Rick

[JohnH]

No, your brains don't have to fall out. :mrgreen:

Even if you have the most consistent casting rhythm possible your mold temp is still going to vary simply because the alloy temp that your pouring into it is varying (see post #10 in this thread). Can good bullets still be cast? Yes, of course they can. I did it that way for decades, still do with the RCBS pot. With the PID you simply push a button until the readout is at your desired melt temp. The other readout is the actual melt temp. The PID will cycle the pot on and off automatically and keep the melt temp within just a very few degrees of your set temp.

That's it. No adding lead to cool it off, no constantly changing alloy temp, no fussing at all, just cast. It's particularly useful for when your casting for accuracy, velocity etc where you want to keep bullet weight variation at a minimum. It's simply easier, set the pot and forget it. I use the RCBS pot for my soft alloy where I mostly cast low velocity, short range HP's for the 45 ACP & such. For many, many years it was my only pot. For most everything else, rifle, long range revolver match bullets etc I use the 40 pound PID controlled Magma pot.

It's much like your reference to going back to the Coleman stove, you don't because of the convenience of the way your doing it now. The PID is like that, it's another big step forward and far more convenient. And as a big plus . . . Have you ever known a bullet caster/handloader that didn't like his toys especially when those toys are beneficial on several counts?

Rick

Sounds like I need to research the capabilities of the PID I have more, Thanks, JohnH

[44man]

Jim, that's pure nonsense and you know it. The worst pot is RCBS? Really? Are you sure you really want to say that?
Yes, I had one and a friend has two, none kept temps or got hot enough. They are like all else made, like all the GE and Sears appliances I owned. Some work and some don't.
This is where a PID works best. Turn the pot all the way up and control the voltage. I would buy a good one if I could afford one, SS is hard to live on.

[cbrick]

Turn the pot all the way up and control the voltage? That is not how a PID works.

You and your friend must have gotten the bulk of poor RCBS pots. They have an outstanding and very long history of excellence and durability.

Rick

[old benn]

I KNOW! I'm going to be sorry I ask, . . . I see so many abbreviations on the forum it sometimes makes me wonder, but . . . PID, what is that? OB

[dragon813gt]

Just how did a PID change your casting? In what ays did it make it better, in what ways did it simplify your routine.

It really didn't change my casting. I have not been doing nearly as long as most here. Most have been doing it longer than I've been alive.

What's it's done is increase my consistency. I don't need to worry about checking the pot temp so I focus on all the other variables. One less thing to monitor means more attention can be focused on other areas.

Checking the pot temp isn't hard and adjusting the stat isn't hard either. But the adjustment breaks your cadence. W/ a finicky mold this can set you back a good bit of time.

I don't know if it's simplified my routine. I don't worry about overshooting on initial warmup. I don't worry about overshooting or cooling off to much when adding sprues and rejects. Even w/ a PID the pot temp is going to vary w/ lead level. But it's a lot smaller margin and the more you use it the more it learns and controls it better.

Do you need a PID, absolutely not. Is it a slick piece of electronics that makes casting a little bit easier, you bet. Between a hot plate and PID the weight variation between bullets is virtually negligible. When shooting rifles this is fairly important.

The PID argument is much like the one for electronic scales. I do not ever want to go back to using only a beam scale. The convenience is to great.

[cbrick]

I KNOW! I'm going to be sorry I ask, . . . I see so many abbreviations on the forum it sometimes makes me wonder, but . . . PID, what is that? OB

Proportional-integral-derivative controller.

PID controller is a control loop feedback mechanism (controller) widely used in industrial control systems. A PID controller calculates an error value as the difference between a measured process variable and a desired set point.

Rick

[cajun shooter]

44man, It amazes me, how many negatives do you have every day? To say the RCBS Pro Melt is an inferior product is an absur statement for sure. I have owned three in my life of 68 years and they worked as well as the Wagge pots I've owned with the benefit of being a bottom pour pot.
I think you may need a good personal friend in your area to converse with on a daily bases to give you a better outlook on things. I'm shooting in the dark here as I don't know you personally but have had the experience of your negative postings since I became a member.
Why not post that you had trouble with your RCBS pots instead of saying that they are all bad. I have stated on more than one occasion that the Lee 4-20 pots are bad but I had 4 to judge from plus hundreds of other members chime in on how bad the ones they had were. I would like to see your printed research on the subject of the failure of the RCBS PRO MELT so that I can forward this to the company for results.
I have owned Chevrolet vehicles all my life, following in my father's footsteps. In 1967 I purchased a new Impala and from day one I had to add oil. It was using over one quart of oil to every fill up. I took it back several times to my dealer in Baton Rouge, La. They could never find the problem because of inept trained mechanics and a hard to get along with service manager. Long story short, They finally called the factory and found that several engines were built with heads that had no oil returns in the heads. This caused the valve covers to fill with oil and send the excess down the valve stems, this of course caused the cylinder to fill with excess oil and out the exhaust. Once the bad head was replaced I put well over 100,000 miles on that car. I have purchased others since. I hope you understand my point in telling this story.
I wish you well and hope you can put a grin on that face and enjoy life for what it is. Take Care David

[old benn]

cbrick - Thank you! OB

[country gent]

One problem with the remote thermostats on pots is just that its remote and ambient temperature, winds or breezes affet them due to the distance from the pot. The big plus to the PID is the thermocouple unit that is actually in the melted metal reading direct temps not transposing from a distance away. I still cast with a propane fired pot and thermometer in the melt ( my pot holds 100+ lbs to aid with consistency.) and even heat control. I ladle cast and enjoy doing it this way. Its what works for me. Yes I have to watch the thermometer and manually adjust temps occassionally, Yes I have to pay more attention to things. But my bullets come out very consistent and accurate this way for me.

[44man]

44man, It amazes me, how many negatives do you have every day? To say the RCBS Pro Melt is an inferior product is an absur statement for sure. I have owned three in my life of 68 years and they worked as well as the Wagge pots I've owned with the benefit of being a bottom pour pot.
I think you may need a good personal friend in your area to converse with on a daily bases to give you a better outlook on things. I'm shooting in the dark here as I don't know you personally but have had the experience of your negative postings since I became a member.
Why not post that you had trouble with your RCBS pots instead of saying that they are all bad. I have stated on more than one occasion that the Lee 4-20 pots are bad but I had 4 to judge from plus hundreds of other members chime in on how bad the ones they had were. I would like to see your printed research on the subject of the failure of the RCBS PRO MELT so that I can forward this to the company for results.
I have owned Chevrolet vehicles all my life, following in my father's footsteps. In 1967 I purchased a new Impala and from day one I had to add oil. It was using over one quart of oil to every fill up. I took it back several times to my dealer in Baton Rouge, La. They could never find the problem because of inept trained mechanics and a hard to get along with service manager. Long story short, They finally called the factory and found that several engines were built with heads that had no oil returns in the heads. This caused the valve covers to fill with oil and send the excess down the valve stems, this of course caused the cylinder to fill with excess oil and out the exhaust. Once the bad head was replaced I put well over 100,000 miles on that car. I have purchased others since. I hope you understand my point in telling this story.
I wish you well and hope you can put a grin on that face and enjoy life for what it is. Take Care David
I never said all were bad and like Lee stuff, I have a lot of it with perfect results. It is only luck of the draw, like getting a Lyman mold that makes the right size boolit. But three out of three makes me wonder and my old Lyman worked a long time but once it failed, it could not be fixed with a new thermostat.
My brother in law bought a new Ford, the very expensive sports car, don't remember the model but he left the dealer and felt a bump and the car quit. Transmission fell out on the road. No bolts in it. I owned many Chevy trucks until the last one, Starter broke and every replacement would not turn the engine even with 24 volt jumpers. 305 engine. Starter for the larger engine would not fit.
I drive Toyota's now. Look at recalls for every car and truck.
My GE products have been junk and the wife cusses when she washes clothes, I will not buy more GE stuff. I bought a Japanese fridge to replace the Big GE that failed. Found it was made in Mexico but the thing works. My GE dehumidifier has failed just out of warranty. My old Toyota Truck went over 350,000 miles without a hitch until it rusted away.
I used to repair TV's on the side and knew what failed all the time and why. I made a lot of money but today they are not fixed, toss them and buy new. Zenith had problems with fire and I did not like RCA but bought a big console RCA when I moved here and it still has a perfect picture going on 30 years. Philips had a cool chassis TV that kept heat away from parts. Magnavox was decent. I got a 75% discount from Magnavox factory parts.
Many are gone now so ask why they are gone! Hitachi TV's were a can of worms.
I was there and did that, gunsmith to this day. I can't fix new TV's or cars. I did fix the computer on the daughters Chevy when diodes failed and the car would not start until oil pressure told the computer to turn on the gas.
You will have a hard time telling me every RCBS pot works perfect. You are only lucky. I have tools from everyone here and even harbor freight has some good stuff but others are junk. My first Smithy lathe had bearings full of cast iron dust, took work to clean and fix. Next one works.
I have RCBS molds nothing but perfection but also have many not worth the money. I still use RCBS and Lyman presses. I found Redding dies not up to snuff.
I make my own molds now and nobody has beat the accuracy I get.
Did you ever make a mold?
Do you know how many farm out parts to China?

[cbrick]

Give it up Jim, the only one your going to convince is you. RCBS pots have an outstanding decades long record of excellence. I couldn't care less about Smithy lathes. Stay with what you know best and are very good at, loading for and shooting revolvers. This type of product bashing does nothing but diminish you. Far too many people are very aware of the history of the Pro-Melt to be swayed by a product bashing post and will see it for exactly what it is.

Rick

[gtgeorge]

Hi Blackwater, seems that others have recommended a PID for a thermostat which is the best thermostat I have ever used. Cheaper than buying a new pot with a better thermostat and can be used on any pot you have along the way. I am one that got tired of fiddling with the settings on the Lee and then only had to worry about the spout dripping or keeping a constant flow.

I have since abandoned my Lee pots and moved on to RCBS and a Magma. Both are on the PIDs I used for the Lee pots and a shear joy to use. Only issue was upgrading to larger wiring and fuse circuit for the extra amps on the Magma at @ $5.

A PID will keep your pour at @ 2º +/- if not adding along the way which I couldn't keep it within 20º with the supplied thermostat and a thermometer.

If a pot change with thermostat is in order I found the Magma the most accurate with the supplied thermostat and the RCBS a second. Both change melt temp as the level drops but nothing like my experience with the Lee. Those are the only one's I have experience with so can't speak for the others. If the Lyman with the PID would have hit the shelves before I bought the RCBS that was my 1st choice but as a new product had no one to look to to see how well they work or hold up.

Good luck in whatever you choose.

[milkman]

It's no wonder that people are leaving this site in droves.

[dondiego]

It's no wonder that people are leaving this site in droves.

Can you explain?

[milkman]

It seems that a lot of people are getting enough of uncivil bickering, with people who see any disagreement as an insult and try to get one up. I know of several who have already walked away. There are lots of names you don't see in threads any more.
Too bad, this is a great site with lots of knowledge, but maybe too many know-it-alls.

[44man]

Give it up Jim, the only one your going to convince is you. RCBS pots have an outstanding decades long record of excellence. I couldn't care less about Smithy lathes. Stay with what you know best and are very good at, loading for and shooting revolvers. This type of product bashing does nothing but diminish you. Far too many people are very aware of the history of the Pro-Melt to be swayed by a product bashing post and will see it for exactly what it is.

Rick
You might be right, I can only go by experience. Every day products that continue to fail sours a guy. I don't bash RCBS, I have a ton of their stuff.
You can't say every single item from RCBS, Lyman, Lee, Ruger and so on is not without problems. Look at Ruger bashing on the sites. Look at the latest S&W complaints. Will that stop me from buying my favorite guns? Does it stop me from buying RCBS?
Why when I explain an experience do you call it BASHING when it was one item out of millions? Let me show you something, Sears dehumidifier that is nothing but trouble. See where it is made. Who makes the thermostats for RCBS? 128199
I bought a battery drill from harbor freight, never took a charge and is dead when I need it. I got a new Porter Cable drill for Christmas, works perfect, guess where it is made? CHINA! Not all is bad from China either.
I say it like it is, nothing more, nothing less.
You see posts about Ruger and then someone that says they will never buy another but you do not go after them, just me. You know darn good and well it would never stop either of us from buying a Ruger. I am not stopping anyone from buying RCBS either, they will fix it if there is a problem. I have depended on RCBS too many years to bash them. I grew up with Rock Chucker Bullet Swage.
I worked for an airline and the GE engines were the very best, Don't expect me to buy another GE wash machine, fridge or dehumidifier. Not nice to have the coils in a fridge a mass of ice. They would not fix so THAT is bashing. You want a jet engine? Get a GE.
You were not even alive when Huntington started RCBS and close to Bill starting Ruger, I was and when Sturm died and the eagle turned red. Notice I do not go after Ruger bashers?
Stop accusing me of bashing.

[Mike W1]

It seems that a lot of people are getting enough of uncivil bickering, with people who see any disagreement as an insult and try to get one up. I know of several who have already walked away. There are lots of names you don't see in threads any more.
Too bad, this is a great site with lots of knowledge, but maybe too many know-it-alls.

We all need to bite our tongues once in awhile. I've gained a great deal of knowledge about casting since coming on board and am probably an addict to the site. One fellow was banned cause he said it like he saw it and I miss his input. Another nameless soul personally drives me nuts but so far I'm just chewing my tongue and not letting him get to me as I believe he knows quite a bit of good info other than one subject he's relentless on. Guess we have to take a little bad with the good.

[lwknight]

It seems that a lot of people are getting enough of uncivil bickering, with people who see any disagreement as an insult and try to get one up. I know of several who have already walked away. There are lots of names you don't see in threads any more.
Too bad, this is a great site with lots of knowledge, but maybe too many know-it-alls.

You don't see a lot of me around here because I'm busy trying to deal with life in general. I actually love a good argument if it is based on logic and not just stupid emotion.

A thermostat helps you control temperatures
A PID control is just another type of thermostat.
It is electronic and very accurate.
Its not a crutch and Banger Jim has been on my ignore list for months.
There is only one person on my ignore list that I learned how to use on account of.
The ignore list works very well. It keeps you from seeing any of the ignored persons posts.

[44man]

You learn by doing and every single one of us will be disappointed at one time or another. Do you know how many custom guns shoot worse then out of box? The money paid never insures results. A $200 mold will not make a better boolit then a Lee.
I think anyone that spends a lot always disputes the poor man with a few dollars. To spend $372 for a pot when a lee costs $55 puts you in the elite class because you are rich. A star sizer does not do better then a lee push through but since you are rich, it has to be better.
It is class warfare. The huge machine that turns out 500 rounds a minute will never out shoot my cheap single stage. Yes they are RCBS and Lyman's, even Lee's. Get over it, price is never the answer. The most problems on sites is from those with money against those with none. I feel for the poor. The poor man can put all of you to shame as I have.
Rick has never done what I have at any range. On the cheap, 10 cents a shot with out of box guns.
I like Rick but he might have more money to brag about. Funny how many with money shoot so much better. Buy a Dillon and shoot better.

[cbrick]

Jim, are you having a bad day?

As for Rick, he lives on a SS check.

Rick

[dragon813gt]

Who has brought cost into this discussion? IMO, any pot besides Lee is over priced by a large margin. But they sell them and people buy them. I don't begrudge anyone because of what pot they use. As long as they're casting and having fun that's all that matters.

[44man]

[QUOTE=cbrick;3102168]Jim, are you having a bad day?

As for Rick, he lives on a SS check.
Yes, I sure am, the stinking water softer is acting up again. I am sitting here thinking of taking the .500 to it.
The wife refuses to use the oven, says the temp jumps all over and either won't bake or it burns.
The wash machine changes water temp on it's own after she goes upstairs. The kitchen faucet is dripping, they did not chrome the inside and water has eaten the brass.
I am so sick of stuff that doesn't work and deathly afraid to go buy anything.
My list of stuff NOT to buy is growing every day.
Unless you print every day, never buy an ink jet, give up color and buy a laser printer.
Be back after I find a bigger hammer. [smilie=b:
Now I am trying to post this and it says my message is too short. Says I need 5 characters! :holysheep

[gtgeorge]

a [/QUOTE] would help to end what you quoted It thinks you are posting nothing but a quote

[bangerjim]

You don't see a lot of me around here because I'm busy trying to deal with life in general. I actually love a good argument if it is based on logic and not just stupid emotion.

A thermostat helps you control temperatures
A PID control is just another type of thermostat.
It is electronic and very accurate.
Its not a crutch and Banger Jim has been on my ignore list for months.
There is only one person on my ignore list that I learned how to use on account of.
The ignore list works very well. It keeps you from seeing any of the ignored persons posts.

Glad to know I am on his list. He is on mine also!!!!!! And my ignore list is growing by the day on here.

[Alan in Vermont]

OOPS big time, got this in the wrong thread

[44man]

a would help to end what you quoted It thinks you are posting nothing but a quote[/QUOTE]
That is what it was, thank you.

[gwpercle]

I read some of the posts about building and trouble shooting those PID devices and came to the conclusion that a simple 1967 high school graduate like me had absolutely no idea what they were talking about. I'm not going to enroll in MIT to earn a EECS degree so I can build a PID to turn my pot up and down for me, just isn't that hard to regulate the temperature myself, I figured that one out a long time ago.
I try to limit my reliance on electronic devices, some day it may come back to haunt you.
Gary

[Springfield]

Wow. I consider myself poor especially considering what part of the US I live in. I am a stay at home dad who does leatherwork to help pay the bills. But i bought a Magma pot anyway. I had LEE's, and they are just OK. Especially after you buy an RCBS. Which is OK until you buy a Magma. Why a Magma? Well, the thing I have the least of is time. The wife and I like to do a lot of cowboy shooting. It is basically our only hobby, especially now that the kids shoot with us. So I prefer to cast a few thousand bullets at a time and load them all up. I can do about 800 an hour if I use a LEE 6 cavity mould. Done, for a few months. Same reason I have a Dillon 550, load up a big batch and be done with it. Same reason I have a Star sizer. I can lube 1000 bullets an hour, more or less. A LEE push through can't do that, plus you still have to lube them. Every hour I don't spend casting, lubing and loading is time I can spend making some money making somebodies leather order. Or taking the kids to Karate class, singing lessons, piano lessons, Boy Scout meetings, doctor and dentist appointments. If I was an old retired guy with lots of time on his hands I wouldn't care about saving time, but I'm not. Time is money, and I spent some money on quality equipment to save me some time, and it was well worth it. My Dillon, Star and Magma have performed well for many years and I will be surprised if they fail to do so in the future. And I did build my own PID, it also just make things easier and faster for very little money. I don't have a college degree either, but it really isn't rocket science. So, do things slow if you want, but for me it isn't worth it.

[theperfessor]

May I offer this as an explanation of PID control?

Definitions:

Set point: the value you want to mantain, for example 725F alloy temperature
Measured or actual value: the value that you are actually measuring, example 78F when you first start up
Error: The difference between the set point value and the measured value, for example 725F - 78F = 647F

A thermocouple is the typical transducer (a device that transducts one type of energy - heat energy - with another type of energy - electricity) that supplies the input signal (voltage or current) representing the measured value (temperature) to the controller.

A PID controller looks at the error and applies three different modes of control:

Proportional - The output of the controller is large when the error is large, the output is small when the error is small.

Integral - The output is based on the error AND the length of time the error has existed. A small error over a long time produces an increasingly larger output as time goes on.

Derivative - The output is based on the rate of change of the error as control is applied.

These terms should be familiar to anyone that has taken basic calculus. The value of a point on a line (proportional), the slope of the line at that point (derivative) and the area under the curve from some arbitrary starting point (integral).

YOU DON"T NEED TO UNDERSTAND ELECTRONICS OR CALCULUS TO USE ONE>

The inexpensive PID controllers available today are not analog, the are simply on-off devices that turn on or off a heating coil. The length of time the coil is on and off is determined by the internal circuitry. The ones I've built "teach" themselves how to respond and are very easy to use.

I use one on my Lyman 20 lb furnace and also many of my molds have screw in TCs that monitor mold temp and cycle my hotplate.

Can you cast w/o one? Sure. So can I.

Can I do a better job with one, and waste less of my precious time getting going. Can I "set and forget" my furnace during the warmup cycle? Can I tweak lead melt temperatures by 10, 20, 30 degrees w/o overshoot? Yes, yes, yes.

I'm not a gadget freak but I LIKE modern things (if they work well). I learned how to run a manual lathe and mill but strapped on DROs as soon as I could get them and now I am buying CNC equipment.

I can appreciate people placing different levels of importance on various types of technology, and I can certainly appreciate tight finances. But (and this isn't directed at anyone in particular here) I am not impressed by snobs that own expensive stuff and have no clue how to use it, nor am I impressed by the reverse snobbery of folks that refuse to even consider changing the way they do things despite improvements in technology.

This thread was starting to sound like it should be in the Pit. Why don't we all step back and take a deep breath and get out of the house and do something else for a while, huh?

[cbrick]

Well Perfessor, that all makes perfect sense, well described and understandable except . . . What is this calculus thing you speak of? :veryconfu

Rick

[theperfessor]

Calculus = one of the hardest subjects I had to deal with in College, that's what it is. But the concepts are good to know.

[dragon813gt]

Calculus is the magic the PID runs on. If you screw up Physics while making one you let the factory smoke out of said PID. I hate any math above Geometry.

[cbrick]

Geometry?

[btroj]

Rick, I know you love definitions and all so here ya go.

Geometry (from the Ancient Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek): γεωμετρία; geo- (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B3%E1%BF%86) "earth", -metron (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%BC%CE%AD%CF%84%CF%81%CE%BF%CE%BD) "measurement") is a branch of mathematics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematics) concerned with questions of shape, size, relative position of figures, and the properties of space

[cbrick]

Ah ha, now I see what the problem is . . . I don't speak Greek either. :groner:

Rick

[dragon813gt]

Geometry?

Has no bearing on this discussion. I took Geometry before Trigonometry and Calculus. Hated both of them.

[btroj]

Ah ha, now I see what the problem is . . . I don't speak Greek either. :groner:

Rick

That wasn't the primary language of your youth? Huh, you must be younger than I thought.

[10x]

Has no bearing on this discussion. I took Geometry before Trigonometry and Calculus. Hated both of them.

Geometry and trig were logical. Calculus is closer to organized intuitive guessing...
Calculate involves real solid numbers with a real solid answer. Calculous gives an answer that is extremely close, one way or another..

[44man]

When I had my PID I would use a thermometer in the lead and adjust voltage until I got what I wanted, if I remember it took 85 volts from the PID but it is a choke point for the volts and amps, like a resister. Sucker gets hot and the SCR's get hot. I made a huge heat sink and used heat sink paste, also set it on metal but it smoked eventually. The pot wanted to pull more amps then the PID could handle.
It worked great until it failed.
In the old days the TV's always failed from HEAT. Biggest problem was generating the huge voltages the picture tube needed. Transistors feeding the tripler would burn up when they transitioned to half tubes and transistors. It was a rough time. The Zenith could catch fire and I had to install special parts, Transistor and capacitors and put a big label on the back showing it had the upgrade.
I have asked for PID plans and a parts list to no avail. Need to buy one but can I trust one?
To spend money that is not in my pocket when Lee works while my old Lyman gathers dust is not in the cards.
To start casting and set the ladle back in the pot to hear a "CLUNK" on hard lead does not make boolit making a pleasure. You might defend a lot of stuff I complain about until you also run into it.
Some things last a lifetime and if yours does, please don't get bitter at me for having problems. I will say what happens in truth. It is true both RCBS pots my friend has and the one I had never made a good boolit. I used both of his and could not make a good boolit but that does not reflect on other pots of the same make. I will never understand the animosity when something works for some but not all.
You all heard about Monday cars and Friday cars.Then what happens when a company changes hands and screws the employees. Like DW at one time. Workers get very bitter.
Bought a DW .357 max once. Set the gap to .002" and the cylinder would lock at a few trigger pulls, the cylinder front was a wobble. The barrel was 10* crooked in the frame too.
Tried to help an IHMSA shooter with a new .44 DW at the range. Had the rear sight all the way right and could not hit at 50 meters. I looked over the top of the gun and seen the barrel pointing WAY left. Yet all of you with good DW's would bash me, yes they made the best at one time.
There are a million complaints about Ruger QC on every site. I will buy a Ruger any day. Now S&W complaints are coming fast. I will not buy a S&W now, WHY? Because they are up in the thousands of dollars. I prefer the old 29 at $140. My Flat top was $96. My Mark I was $37.50. Still shoots lights out.
I still feel when you spend more money you get angry if something is said about what you bought.
Human nature after all.
What I hate is spending thousands for junk. I have said many things and the response has always been 50-50, Half with a problem and half without.
Hey, want an $1100 GE wash machine for $10, pick it up. It is worth more to me to remove it from my basement on your labor.
My bash time comes when I say the amount you spend will never make you a better shot. I bet an old Lyman tong tool will do as good. Go back to see a boolit cast on a fire shot better then what you make. Experience and learning trumps all toys.

[TXGunNut]

Well Perfessor, that all makes perfect sense, well described and understandable except . . . What is this calculus thing you speak of? :veryconfu

Rick

I'm pretty proud that I got as far as thermocouple. Looks like this old dog (me!) needs to do a little studying up on this subject. If I'm going to build one of these things I think I need to understand how it works.

[Blackwater]

Gee whiz, guys! I asked a simple question for info and advice, and all this??? Some of us wear our feelings on our sleeves these days, and that's unfortunate. I know we all face many irritants through our usually harried days in this modern world, but "gentlemanliness" COULD overcome that if we'd just give it a try. It amazes me these days how so many of us too often seem to expect everyone to agree with us and see the same things the same way we do. It's never been that way, and isn't ever likely to be. Only the man who's afraid or angry responds as some have here, and THIS, my friends, is coming from one who loves a good arguement. I just don't like quarreling, which is a very different endeavor. With an arguement, when someone says something counter to your own thoughts, you ASK why they see things that way. In a quarrel, you just attack the other participant. Simple difference, and so often so very crucial. We live in maddening times, and these things are inevitable from time to time, but we CAN, if we but will to do so, get better at it. Like I said, I love a good arguement. I've learned a lot from the GOOD arguments I've had. I even learned what a PID is here, at least sort of. Truly, this "new millenium" is inferior in the way it seems to bring us down to levels none of us have ever aspired to. As to 44man's statement: "The most problems on sites is from those with money against those with none," this observation concurs with what I'm seeing in so very many ways in many situations these days. Some want things so easy they're virtually done for us before we put forth any effort. As I've aged, I can appreciate this more and more, but I surely don't ever EXPECT things to be that way. Murphy's Law and many other things, like human nature, intervene to make it unwise to expect things to work that way. Therefore, we humans developed civil rules of interaction, called "manners," and sometimes "perspective," to keep ourselves out of unnecessary mischief and trouble, and even from making horse's asses out of ourselves on the odd occasion. Humility was given us to USE, not just talk about in others. It would be really nice to see it applied a little more often, and yes, this IS coming from one who, when challenged, can get down in the dirt with the best of them. I just tend, usually at least, to admit what I'm doing and why when I get into those type situations. They CAN be enjoyable from time to time, but they never last, and I've learned that things that last are better than things that don't, so I tend to get into them less and less often ..... thankfully. I don't really give a fig what others think of me, and I'm not afraid of being wrong, or being seen as wrong. I'm just a wandering traveller in a world I no longer seem to recognize ..... or WANT to.

As our nation crumbles around us, we sit and get all huffy about what some like-minded brother of the casting pot says, or HOW he says it. GIVE ME A DANG BREAK! Get off your high horses and just let's TRY to help each other cast better bullets, and shoot better, and LEARN from each other. 44man has a TON of experience we can glean from him if we'll but stow our attitudes and moods when we come here. It's not wise to throw away or repel that kind of thing, but in this "new millenium" that so many seem to be so damnably proud of, all sorts of things don't make sense any more. "C'est la' vie???" Only if we MAKE it that way!

[TXGunNut]

Thanks for starting this thread, Blackwater. Very good thread on a subject that's been on my mind a fair bit lately. Sometimes the apparent hard feelings expressed in posts are all a misunderstanding, some folks have a hard time converting their thoughts to the written word - been there, done that. I think differences of opinion and even disagreements are good, I'll never learn much from someone I totally agree with.

[44man]

There are never hard feelings from me and blackwater is PROFOUND in what he said. Not because of me but because he sees some of the arguments are plain stupid.
We are the last to protect the loss of our constitution and the second amendment.Will you just stop and be together? I so Fear the black bastard in control. Sorry it is not race, it is his thought of destruction of our Constitution.
If you do not belong to the NRA or other other Please join.
But watch the wounded warrior stuff, It is a scam. So is the Red Cross, you get a bill if they help. Many donation places are scams. Goodwill is one, those in the store take the best as it comes in. Then they charge more for free stuff.

[10x]

I'm pretty proud that I got as far as thermocouple. Looks like this old dog (me!) needs to do a little studying up on this subject. If I'm going to build one of these things I think I need to understand how it works.

A PID is a control device.
You attach a K type thermocouple to it using the two terminal screws. ( the K thermocouple measures temperature between 0f and 1320 F and sends an electric current that the PID measures - you don't have to worry about it. if you hook it up backwards the temp shown on the PID drops iwhen you hold the thermocouple in your hand, if so, then just reverse the wires)
You attach a 110V Ac or 220V ac line to it using two terminal screws.
The PID uses the thermocouple to measure the temperature of where ever you place the thermocouple - whether it be your tea kettle or your lead pot.
The PID uses the measured temperature to turn relays on and off.
You can set the PID to the desired temperature (ie 650F for lead) . The thermocouple will tell the PID when the lead reaches 650F, the thermocouple then shuts off the power to the lead pot. When the lead pot drops below 650F the PID then turns on the power to the lead pot.
Some PIDS have internal relays (usually rated at 3 amps) to do this job. 3 amps may not be enough for a lead pot.
You want a PID that can turn a SSR (Solid state Relay) on and off. SSRs can be rated at 25 to 40 amps - more than enough for a lead pot.

PID measures the temperature in the pot as often as 20 or 30 times a second. - way more than we need. It also turns on and shuts off the power at the same rate.
The duty cycle of the PID can be changed so that it measures every second but folks don't need to learn how to do that.

The wiring can be a bit intimidating until you break it down into a) power supply to PID b) thermocouple connections c) power supply to pot and d) two wires from the PID to control the SSR (solid state relay) that turns the power on and off to the pot.
The first one I built cost me $22.00 and worked great. It took about a month to get the courage to build it.
I had ordered the wrong PID with an internal relay - That took about ten minutes to change (remove the internal relay and put jumpers in so the power that controlled the relay went to the PID terminals) I watched a YOUTUBe video on how to do this.
I have had the smoke come out of one PID from a failed power supply - Sometimes electronics fail. It cost more to ship it back to china than a new one and the supplier shipped me a new one and told me to toss the told one.

Bottom line the new technology is intimidating at first but once you break it down - it is really very simple to use.

Moving to a PID unit was a challenge at first, now I wonder why I was worried.
And moving to a PID control unit meant that I have very few rejects to toss back into the casting pot.
It removes one variable that can cause problems.

My next project is a PID controlled pot that will heat enough to melt alloy wheel weights, (about 600 degrees) and not the pure lead wheel weights (they melt at 620 F) . Temperature control like this means that zinc wheel weights will never melt

[TXGunNut]

Thanks for dumbing it down for me 10X, I waded thru one of the sticky threads on the subject but your explanation is very helpful for folks like me. I do the occasional electrical repair where I make note of the arrangement when I take it apart and then reassemble with a new part, I've even repaired and upgraded my old PC a few times. I'll think I'll skip the component procurement and assembly process and buy a plug & play unit but it's good to know how things work.