Make ammo hit to the sights

[c1skout]

One of my 38spl snubbies hits low with all my ammo. When shooting I need to lift the front sight until the base of the sight is level with the top of the rear sight, the whole sight above the rear, to get hits on target.


I don't build any "hot" loads, mostly 3-3.5gns Bullseye under a 158 swc, but I've tried a few standard pressure factory rounds (158rn, 130fn, 148wc) and reloads from 105-158gn boolits with Bullseye powder and all have hit about the same.


I have a 160wc mold from Ideal that runs about 166gn from my range scrap. Do I understand correctly that if I were to load this heavier boolit with a slower powder it should hit closer to my sights?


I also would like to find a factory load that would work out, I see that most companies load standard pressure 158's in both lead and jacketed, but I can never find any locally to buy and try, most everything is +P on the shelves. I prefer to find factory loads for carry, then tailor a matching reload for practice. Anyone know of a slow, heavy factory load (if that IS what I need)?

[Groo]

Groo here
Is this happening with only one gun?
What gun.
Have you tried +p 158gr.
at what range.
That is a lot of front sight [ what I would use at 100yds or more.]

[Char-Gar]

Groo here
Is this happening with only one gun?
What gun.
Have you tried +p 158gr.
at what range.
That is a lot of front sight [ what I would use at 100yds or more.]

All good questions that need answers.

[dubber123]

A lighter grip makes a big difference too. What is the gun in question? I only have S&W snubbies, and they all shoot POA with standard loads. I have never shot one that required that much front sight. A heavier boolit will help, as will slowing them down to increase barrel time.

[Scharfschuetze]

Increasing bullet weight is one way to bring your point of impact up in relation to your sights and might work to some extent in your 38. There are a fair number of 180 grain cast boolits on the market if you can't find anything in 200 grains. I've used the RCBS 358 200 grain GC boolit in my Model 65 S&W and it brought the POI right up to the POA at 25 yards and held well right through 50 yards and took the "Kentucky Windage" out of shooting rocks and other assorted vermin with that fixed sight revolver.

Ages ago there was a 200 grain RN load for the 38 Special. I don't think that it has been loaded for quite a while, but it was touted as a good load for snub nose revolvers. That's what a few of the old salts on my PD said anyway. I always took that with a grain of salt.

[Bzcraig]

I know bullseye is a great powder but have you tried anything else?

[c1skout]

Groo
Yes, only my Charter Arms Police Undercover (6-shot snub, same frame as the 44 Bulldog) http://www.charterfirearms.com/products/Charter_Undercover_73840.asp My Armscor snub I have no trouble with.
I haven't tried any +P ammo
The last time out with this gun I was shooting Win 130gn jacketed at a 50ft indoor range. I needed that much front sight to get the shots on a 8" target. I don't need that much sight at 50ft with either factory or homemade 158's but I do need to aim WAY high. I usually level the sights and hold slightly over the target to get hits, kind of reverse of a 6-oclock hold and up a smidge more.

I haven't tried any slower powders yet.
I just did some quick checking in my manuals and it seems there's not much load info that matches with powders I have. I've got 2400 and Acc#'s 9, 7, & 2, W296 & W231. Most loads are calling for the faster stuff like Bullseye, 231, & Accurate#2 or 5.

[Lonegun1894]

I'd use what you have and decrease powder loads by 0.1 gr and see how much slower you need to go. You never said, but if this is a social load, I would be careful to not turn it into a weak load, but if it is just for target practice, it doesn't take much to get through paper, so slowing it down does no harm, and makes your shooting cheaper. I have done this with several guns over the years, including both revolvers and semi-autos.

[bobthenailer]

My 2" snub shoots low with 110gr or 125 gr bullets but shoots to POA with a 158gr bullet @25'

[cajun shooter]

I'm having a morning chuckle reading some of the postings about your OP.
The snub nose revolver was never meant to be anything more than a close up, like in a room gun. It would not be any fun shooting 158 grain +P loads in your snubbie, plus it would not be conducive to the life of your gun and it's parts.
The standard old 158 grain RN lead bullet is what the factory sights are adjusted for. The reason the old 200 grain load in 38 spl. is no longer made is that it was a complete failure as a police defensive rou nd.
Back in the early 70's I did some testing that was published by Lee Juras and found out he was correct.
The 200 grain load would not even penetrate the butterfly window that was on vehicles of the time. They just bounced off. They had cases to where in the colder climates, the bullet would not even enter the body of heavily clothed crooks. If it was a good round, why was it discontinued?
The standard 158 gr. RN lead is not a great man stopper either, that's why we have the ammo that is offered today.
If you are wanting a defensive load for your 38 snubbie then purchase some powerball type loads to keep for protection loads.
If you want a load to plink with then I would advise you to try the standard target load of 2.7 grains of Bullseye with the 148 gr. Speer Hollow base WC. Your gun was never designed to be a target gun or even a gun to shoot every Saturday at the range. I'm not by any means putting down on what you have. I have owned S&W snubbies since 1968.
You need to purchase you a 4 inch barreled gun for your plinking work. If you don't have a lot of what they now call "disposable income" then look for a used Taurus. They are much better guns than what they once were and they will shoot good for you.
Not to try and come off as a know it all by no means as this forum is loaded with many members who know more than me but I do have some credentials also. I'm a FBI trained POST FIREARMS Instructor and was the lead instructor for the state of Louisiana for a few years. I also taught firearms at the LSU Police Training Institute. I was an instructor for about 1200 police officers while also training other officers from other area departments.
I was also the armorer for the department and attended 5 S&W schools, Ruger, Sig, Ithaca, Remington.

I included this only to show my back ground in guns and training. If your gun is hitting a few inches low on the target, then that is plenty good for it's intended use. I can promise you that if you ever have to use it for protection of yourself or family, you will never remember using the sights.
You may want to try some Clays powder, again if you can purchase it. It burns clean and is a very good powder for handgun loads.
Your load of 3.5 grains of BE is right on the standard production load of the 38 158 gr. load.
Good luck and good shooting. Take Care David

[Certaindeaf]

I've been known to, after deciding on a load, make a few passes with a good file on the front sight (bring the file to the range and take your time) in order to raise the group.

[Comrade Mike]

Cajun,

I am by no means arguing you or your credentials, but some of us out there like to shoot nice small groups with snubbies! Sure it's intended as a short range weapon but I don't think that thinking should limit your expectations. I've made hits out to 200 yards with my model 36. I'm sure you know they're capable of being excellent shooters in the right hands.

OP, assuming the low shooting isn't some flaw in how you shoot I think your only option would be to file the front sight down once you find your load or switch to a heavier bullet.

[Dan Cash]

[QUOTE=c1skout;3097431]One of my 38spl snubbies hits low with all my ammo. ....
QUOTE]

If this is happening with only one of several of your snubbies, I would look to the gun as the problem. A misdrilled frame causing the barrel to be misaligned is not unheard of, nor is an accident in the history of your revolver resulting in a bent barrel. If this is the problem, you are not likely to solve the problem with a change in technique or ammunition. If the sight alignment were not important, the manufacturers would save much money and dispense with them on belly guns. A snub gun is capable of amazing long range accuracy though it was not intended for such.

[Lonegun1894]

My snubbie is a Ruger SP101 .357, and I plink with it out to 100yds. Now my 100yd groups aren't good, but stay on a B-27 silhouete target and are improving. At 50 yds, this gun will do 4-6" groups standing, and 1.5-3" at 25yds, and all rounds are at POA out to 50yds. My mom used to have a Taurus 85 snubbie .38 Spl that would shoot just as well. A friend has a S&W .357 (not sure on model number) that does the same exact thing. So I understand the intended purpose of these guns, but don't believe for a second that they aren't capable of good accuracy. Yes, a 4" or 6 " is easier to shoot at the longer ranges, but sometimes we want a challenge with the shorter gun.

[Scharfschuetze]

That's what a few of the old salts on my PD said anyway. I always took that with a grain of salt.

I didn't realize that my flippant criticism of the 200 grain "Police Load" would result in such a diatribe in one of the posts above. I'll try and be clearer in the future. Still, it was an "amusing" response and it did point out the fallacy of the 200 grain load for self-defense. I thought that was pretty much common knowledge, but now we all know.

So back to the original topic of point of aim v. point of impact. I didn't perceive the OP to infer anything about self-defense ammo and thus the suggestion of a heavier than normal boolit to correct the low POI v. the POA. So the two options (as noted by many above) for the OP are:

1. Heavy boolit
2. File some off of the sight.

Before you decide to remove metal (I don't like to do that-but that's me) here is a quick formula for you so that you don't take too much metal off of it.

Sight Radius in inches / Range in inches X error on target in inches = correction in inches*

Example for a 2" S&W J Frame snub nose at 25 yards shooting 10" low:

3.5" / 900" = .0039 X 10 = .039" reduction of the front sight.

With the short sight radius of a snub nose revolver, it doesn't take much correction to achieve zero.

My model 60 is quite accurate at ranges most consider as too far for a snub nose revolver. It's all about your shooting fundamentals and with short barrels, your sight alignment is critical. As noted in the formula above, it doesn't take much to correct a zero problem and it doesn't take much of a sight alignment error to miss your target or throw a flyer.

*There are other formulae, but this one is from my notes from a Police Firearms Instructor's Course.

[35remington]

The idea that the 200 grain load is bouncing off car windows and failing to penetrate crooks as a regular situation has been pretty thoroughly debunked......right here in this forum. Promulgating that idea is as misleading as misleading gets.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?75914-38-S-amp-W-penetration-test-200g-bullets/page5 (Start on page 1 if you wish to read the whole thing).

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/archive/index.php/t-75914.html

That takes care of that!

Sights are regulated, supposedly, for bullet weights, and speeding things up or slowing them down doesn't change things much. Adjusting bullet weight will, with heavier bullets hitting higher. If you are SURE the revolver hits low, then zeroing to the sights given a hold with nothing under the gun's butt and with it free to recoil just as you normally hold it (NO aiming with sandbags under the grip) is accomplished by taking a file and removing some of the front sight.

It sounds like according to your claims you would have to take the entire front sight off to zero the gun, so do this thoughtfully by quantifying exactly how low it strikes, for sure, before trying to change anything.

How low does it strike at realistic ranges for a snubby? At 7 yards? 15? 25? Group shooting is needed with careful holding.

[M-Tecs]

but some of us out there like to shoot nice small groups with snubbies! Sure it's intended as a short range weapon but I don't think that thinking should limit your expectations. I've made hits out to 200 yards with my model 36. I'm sure you know they're capable of being excellent shooters in the right hands.


Agreed. I have a S&W 337 PD. It weights in a 10.6 oz but it doesn't understand what it is. It thinks its a target pistol. It loves Federal 38 Special +P 129 Hydra Shok's. It points of impact perfectly. I have won a fair amount of bets with this one. I have a couple of other revolvers of this size class that I can't shoot nearly as well. I am planning on being buried with this one.

[trapper9260]

The OP stated this problem
One of my 38spl snubbies hits low with all my ammo. When shooting I need to lift the front sight until the base of the sight is level with the top of the rear sight, the whole sight above the rear, to get hits on target.
I have the same thing with 2 of my semi autos and when I shoot it the same way as the OP I am on center all the time with my reloads.At first I was thinking it was me and had the one I got the gun from check it out and also test it himself and did not know what to think and then told him what I end up doing and no more problems and was glad i made it work.He was thinking i was going to give up on the gun.Both those guns I talk about have fix sights also.All my other handguns shoot like normal.I made it all work for me.Hope this will help the OP.

[35 Whelen]

A lighter grip makes a big difference too.

Absolutely...as does a heavier grip. I bought my wife a CA Pink Lady a few years ago and had fits with it because it shot too high. MUCH too high, especially with defensive loads. I finally found that by really tightening the grip with the bottom two fingers the POI was brought down to where it ought to be. So, my suggestion would be to loosen your grip and try again.


I'm having a morning chuckle reading some of the postings about your OP.
The snub nose revolver was never meant to be anything more than a close up, like in a room gun. It would not be any fun shooting 158 grain +P loads in your snubbie, plus it would not be conducive to the life of your gun and it's parts.
The standard old 158 grain RN lead bullet is what the factory sights are adjusted for. The reason the old 200 grain load in 38 spl. is no longer made is that it was a complete failure as a police defensive rou nd.
Back in the early 70's I did some testing that was published by Lee Juras and found out he was correct.
The 200 grain load would not even penetrate the butterfly window that was on vehicles of the time. They just bounced off. They had cases to where in the colder climates, the bullet would not even enter the body of heavily clothed crooks. If it was a good round, why was it discontinued?
<snip>

A couple of thoughts here...

The "butterfly" or vent windows you shot at in the '70's were very thick and the glass was tempered. Tempered glass is difficult to break but the older '60's and '70's stuff is damn near impossible unless you strike it on the edge. I've wailed on the stuff with all sorts of metal objects and not broken it. And the oder it gets, the more difficult it is to shatter. Years ago I worked in my grandfathers automotive glass shop and performed all sorts of nefarious experiments involving guns and glass. Would you believe that had you shot the same piece of glass with an ordinary Daisy Red Ryder and steel BB's it likely would have shattered? I used to shoot door glasses out of cars with my .22 caliber Benjamin and the pellets would simply flatten out on the glass, even the newer, thinner stuff. But shoot it with a BB gun and it would shatter every time.

I wonder if the 200 gr. loads you tested were of very low velocity? It's hard to believe a 200 gr. bullet travelling anywhere near the velocity of a similar 158 gr. bullet wouldn't penetrate well. Simple physics would tell us that.

Anyhoo... here's an interesting and recent article on loading 200 gr. bullets in 2" .38's:

http://www.loaddata.com/articles/PDF/LD-41%20Campbell.pdf


35W

[c1skout]

Wholey man, lotsa discussion, I'll try some standard loads from spitting distance next time out and make note of where they hit, I don't usually shoot from that close. I'll be sure to try my heavy slow reloads too.


Cajunshooter, I grew up in my family owned junkyard and broke thousands of car windows. I remember some wing vents and station wagon rear windows being virtually impossible to break, sledgehammers, fire mans axe, axle shafts,brake drums and even driveshafts swung like a ball bat bouncing right off, so I can believe a bullet could bounce off in the right circumstance. I remember a Vista Cruiser my dad tried to pick up through the windows with a large forklift, when the one fork hit the back window I saw the window bow in the middle, then spring back out and pop the fork up and rotated it over the mast. He changed his angle of attack for the next shot and then it broke easily.

[Scharfschuetze]

As one of my department's FTOs, I had one of the local junk yards bring up one or two cars with intact bodies and windows to simulate felony car stops twice a year in our training program. It always surprised the new officers that it took a couple of rounds of their 357 magnums to break up auto glass to get at the targets inside. These were usually late 60s or early 70s cars and they still had fairly thick metal skins which also presented problems for the average handgun.

One of our patrol sergeants took a handgun hit to his front windshield directly in front of his face one night. Fortunately for him, the glass completely stopped the projectile. The inner ply of glass stopped any spalling and it didn't even crack. The bullet was never found as it ricocheted off into the sky somewhere after breaking a portion of the outer ply of the safety glass. A second round in the same area might have got through.

From what I could see, velocity is the key against glass. Slow lead boolits are challenged at best and will require several hits in one spot to penetrate. Even magnum level jacketed bullets are not something to bet on. Like armour on a tank, the slope of the glass has something to do with it. Angled glass is the hardest to penetrate and glass with a surface 90 degrees to the bullet being the most vulnerable.

As for the steel BBs, they place all their impact force into a very small spot. Same principle for the hardened and pointed steel window breakers. They'll break a window with a single blow where a metal Kel-Light or Maglight flashlight won't.

Well, that had nothing to do with the OP, but an option not mentioned so far is to just trade the revolver in for one that shoots to its sights. Perhaps that's not fiscally possible for the OP at this time, but it would preclude some frustration.

Thanks for posting the heavy bullet article 35 Whelen.

[Motor]

I've been known to, after deciding on a load, make a few passes with a good file on the front sight (bring the file to the range and take your time) in order to raise the group.

This was the most sencible post yet.

SHORTEN THE FRONT SIGHT !!!! DONE !!!
It's when they shoot too high your kind of stuck.

[Petrol & Powder]

Based on the original post that the gun shoots low with several different bullet weights I would try something else before I started cutting metal off the gun.
Have someone outside of your sight load 4 live rounds and one empty casing into the cylinder and hand you the gun. I'll bet you a good cup of coffee that you'll have a significant downward flinch when you "fire" that empty casing.

[Certaindeaf]

Are you sticking your tongue out a little bit to really focus your concentration? lol, just kidding!

[c1skout]

I got to the range tonight. I took my reloads of 3.5gn Bullseye with a 158swc and the Ideal 160 with 3.0gn Bullseye. I walked out 7 yards from the target and got this.

128126

The X was my aiming point. Two handed, off-hand, double action. Groups from both are about 5" low. I also shot the same way but from 15 yards on a larger target (I didn't take a pic of that one, I was using it for other shooting and it had lots of holes in it) and the 158gn load was 10" low, the 160gn load only about 6" low, and both groups were "slightly" larger!;) I was also being careful to not use too much squeeze on the bottom of the grip as has been mentioned here.


Petrol&Powder, I often leave an empty or two in my revolver when reloading to check myself for flinch. If I leave an empty hole I'll see it coming around the recoil shield so I put an empty back in for surprise.

[35remington]

The 3.5 grain Bullseye/158 loading is a good standard load that should hit to the sights of any fixed sight revolver if it was properly regulated.

Your choices are:

Different grips to see if point of impact changes.

Heavier bullets.

File.

What do you want to do?

[Certaindeaf]

I'm an "old" PPC shooter and have done a bit of work double action but maybe shooting single action might tell a different story in this case. Just a thought.

[Petrol & Powder]

If you're confident that you've eliminated human error then 35Remington is correct:
Your choices are:

Different grips to see if point of impact changes.

Heavier bullets.

File.

I'm not a big fan of heavy for caliber bullets and that Charter Arms probably isn't a good candidate for bullets much over 160grs anyway. 3.5grs of Bullseye is a good load but still below the max. You could try a little hotter load just to see if that helps although that may move the P.O.I. even lower. I had a model 64 that gave me fits until I upped the charge weight to near max and it shoots that load like it should. Doesn't cost much to try that.

Changing grips is relatively inexpensive and reversible.

Taking a file to the front sight may ultimately be the best option. If you consistently get groups in the right place by holding a front sight high then obviously filing the front sight down will achieve the same result with a proper sight picture. It's just hard to put metal back on!

Good Luck

[GabbyM]

Since my favorite 38 Special bullet is the Lyman #358429 SWC at 170 grains. Although my NOE mold drops me 177 grain boolits from 2:6 alloy. I'd give that one a try. Lyman's old book shows that bullet at 168 grains from Linotype. One of the FBI loads was similar bullet hollow pointed. For use in there snubbies. I'd skip any urge to use a hollow point and go with hard cast in a SD snubbie round. However my next batch of #358429's will be cast as shoot as I can get to shoot well. But they are for sport.

[bhn22]

My 649 has hissy fits over lightweight bullets. It's a 357 gun, and absolutely dotes on 158 gr full power Federal Hydrashoks. I have tried target wadcutters, hot wadcutters, lightweight bullets, and just about every combination imaginable. While other bullet weights group well, only fairly hot 158 gr bullets shoot to the sights. As mentioned earlier, grips make a big difference. I finally settled on Pachmyer Compac Professional grips for my J frames. Honorable mention has to go to the original Uncle Mikes Spiegel grips, but only the 357 mag version (3 finger grooves). The 38 grips didn't work well for me on a heavy kicker.

[Good Cheer]

For pleasant plinking and target shooting with a snubby just pick your mold, start with a low level charge and work your way up. If it isn't accurate enough or the elevation doesn't come together try another powder. That's my two cents worth for guys. For women it doesn't seem to matter because they walk cans across the yard with a snubby whether it shoots to point of aim or not.

[Motor]

I got to the range tonight. I took my reloads of 3.5gn Bullseye with a 158swc and the Ideal 160 with 3.0gn Bullseye. I walked out 7 yards from the target and got this.

128126

The X was my aiming point. Two handed, off-hand, double action. Groups from both are about 5" low. I also shot the same way but from 15 yards on a larger target (I didn't take a pic of that one, I was using it for other shooting and it had lots of holes in it) and the 158gn load was 10" low, the 160gn load only about 6" low, and both groups were "slightly" larger!;) I was also being careful to not use too much squeeze on the bottom of the grip as has been mentioned here.


Petrol&Powder, I often leave an empty or two in my revolver when reloading to check myself for flinch. If I leave an empty hole I'll see it coming around the recoil shield so I put an empty back in for surprise.

10 inches at 7 yards !!! Wow !!

A quick calculation (estimating your sight radius is 4"). You would have to shorten the front sight .158" to correct. That's a lot. Definatly not file work but machine work. Have you concidered contacting the manufacture of the pistol about your problem?

Motor

[c1skout]

That was 10" low at 15 yds (with the 158 load), only about 5" low at 7 yds!

[Scharfschuetze]

How tall is your front sight from its base to the top? Is there enough there to zero by metal removal and still have a sight to look at or do you need to get back to one of the original options of shooting a heavy for calibre boolit?

[Lonegun1894]

That was 10" low at 15 yds (with the 158 load), only about 5" low at 7 yds!

Wouldn't it require a velocity of less than 200 fps for that kind of drop? I'm starting to think this has to be a grip, recoil control, flinching, etc issue. Something other than the load. I mean, my slingshot doesn't have a drop of 7-8" between 7 and 15 yds, and there is no way a handgun will.

[c1skout]

Front sight measures .186" from the top of the barrel.

Lonegun1894, I can't rule out the nut behind the trigger, but I don't have these issues with my other snub 38, or other ones that I have shot. I was actually more surprised it hit 5" low at 7yds than 10" low at 15yds. Like I had mentioned I don't normally shoot from that close and already knew I had to hold "way high" to get hits at the ranges I usually shoot.

My brother has a small set of factory wood grips from his old Charter Bulldog that I'm going to try, after he finds them.

[Lonegun1894]

I hope I didn't come across harsh, as that wasn't my intention. Just the more I think about this, the more it seems like a snubby .357 I used to have. And I had others at that time also, and this one was the only one that have me any grief, so that part is VERY familiar and I know how frustrating this can get. It turned out to be a combination of the grip not fitting me right, and me flinching. Once I got both those issues straightened out, the gun turned out to be very accurate and shot to POA. Any chance of getting another known good shooter to try this gun to see if it does the same thing with both of you shooting?

[c1skout]

I didn't take it as harsh, that's fine. I've had my boy and 2 other guys shoot it before. I had to tell them all to aim high before they got hits. I'll get it figured out, if not..... it's still fine for bad breath distances.

[Petrol & Powder]

I too do not wish to come across as a jerk but before you start removing metal that is very difficult to put back on.......please eliminate all of the other possibilities of a low P.O.I.
While it is very true that bullet weight is a factor in a revolvers P.O.I.; I don't think heavier bullets are the solution for this particular situation.
A different grip is a simple and easily reversible test.
And not to be disrespectful or rude, but I'm not convinced you've eliminated the possibility of a flinch.

[Scharfschuetze]

From looking at your photos, I'd say that your groups are consistent enough to rule out much of a flinch. I'd say that what you have is your zero with the loads that you are shooting. Many of the LEOs and Soldiers that I've served with over the years would be challenged to do as well.

Your sight measurement of.186" height v. the formula for adjusting a sight just doesn't leave much sight on the barrel to look at when shooting if you remove enough for a good zero. I posted the formula on the first page of this thread if you want to review it. Motor (Post 32) came up with -.158" using a 4" sight radius. That would only leave you .028" of sight on the barrel. Not enough to really see very well or at all really. In addition, it would probably detract from any trade in value on the revolver.

If the revolver is valuable enough to you, you could always dovetail the top strap and fit a higher rear sight.

Sometimes some guns just aren't meant to be. Try the heavy boolits, grips and what not, but perhaps a trade or sell off might be in that revolver's future. I've never regretted getting rid of such troublesome firearms in the past. Of course if it has some sentimental value that would change things.