Trail Boss disappointment

[jonp]

I have been wanting to try Trailboss for sometime now but couldn't find any on the shelves. During a recent Christmas vacation back home one little shop had a number of bottles of it at $17.50 so I bought 2 to try.

I loaded up some 45Colt loads starting at min and working up using both a 200gr and 255gr boolit. I also tried a couple of different boolits in a 357Mag including a wc to see how it worked. I got no accuracy improvement over other powders like Promo, W231 or Unique and it was much dirtier than the others.

I'm not sure what the big deal with this powder is other than that it fills the case pretty good and the cherrio shape is kinda neat. Anyone else get these results?

[oldfart1956]

My experience puddy much was the same as yours Jonp. I suppose the upside is it fills a case. That's the only thing I saw it had going. Some folks seem to still think it's low pressure...it most certainly ain't. I tried it in 38/357/44/45acp/45 colt and found out it wasn't worth the headaches. Now here's an oddity, tried it in the trapdoor 45/70 and it is soooo close to being as accurate as the Unique load I settled on. Go figger? But what a pain to load. Had to scoop it and weigh every charge. (yes, I am lazy) Stuff sticks to everything and I tried all the anti-static tricks. No air movement in the reloading area with this stuff. One sneeze and you'll be vacuming up trailboss for an hour. (probably not my brightest idea) I tried 4 different powder measures and none of them gave reliable results. (Lyman 55/Lee Perfect/Lee Auto and even the stripped down Mec 600) The stuff just doesn't have enough weight to fill the powder cavity...it's like weighing chicken feathers. :) Big brother, on the other hand, loves the stuff. He uses some electronic scale that trickles up to the correct weight. Color me..not impressed. Audie...the Oldfart..

[bedbugbilly]

Hmmmm . . . I certainly can't say one way or the other. I've been trying for a couple of years to find a container of it to try. Every time I hit a LGS, I ask and it's either "back ordered" or "gee, I just sold the last container we had". I always seem to be a day late and a dollar short on getting any. :-)

A lot of folks seem to love it - seem to like the "case fill" quality of it, etc A lot of the postings I've seen on it have been in reference to the "case fill" and not being able to have a double charge - and often times its in reference to comparisons to powders such as Bulls Eye and how dangerous they feel that powder is due to the small quantity required and the possibility of a double charge, etc. Bulls Eye is still my favorite - like anything in reloading - you have to pay attention and not get sloppy.

As far as the performance of TB - I have also read a lot of posts from those that seem to get great accuracy with it - but hey - like any powder and load - that depends on you and your gun.

If I could find a container, I'd try it. If it worked well then I'd probably try and get more of it. If it didn't work well for me, then I'd go back to something that I know works well. Fortunately, I was able to stock up a little this past summer on Bulls Eye, Red Dot and Unique as the LGS that I check frequently (2 smaller stores) had some luck getting some different powders in. None of them seemed to be able to keep any Trail Boss not he shelves though so someone must be liking it a lot!?

[C. Latch]

Never tried it.

VV Tin Star offers more speed, great case fill, and is super accurate in my ruger .45 colt.

I'm not sure you can load it down to the slow speeds that cowboy action shooting requires, though.

[Guesser]

I've only tried it in some of the old BP transition cartridges. For me it works very well in 32-20, 38 S&W, 32 S&W. I wasn't pleased with it in 45 Colt, don't remember why, have to look at my notes. In the small cartridges it is a fine performer, never felt the need to try it in a rifle cartridge. Eventually I'll probably try it in 32 Short & Long Colt.

[GoodOlBoy]

Yes Trail Boss sticks to anything remotely plastic you get it near. I have the opposite results with accuracy, but then again I load it differently.

I load trail boss in 45LC, 357, 45-70, and 30-30.

30-30 - Good accuracy, fairly clean.
357 Mag - Good accuracy, fairly dirty no matter what I do.
38 Special - Mediocre accuracy at best, about as clean as the bottom of a coal miners boot in an outhouse.
45 Long Colt - Very good accuracy, fairly clean.
45-70 Govt - Very good accuracy, cleaner than many other options I have used.

I load them all using custom dippers made from cut down brass. I start with the parent case. Measure to the base of my bullet on the outside of the case. Then cut down to around a "Estimated" IE eyeballed, 90% of case capacity. I test by dipping (like the lee dippers) a measure full, dropping it in the case and seating (but not crimping) a bullet. I shake the loaded round. Can I hear movement, IE there is no compression of the powder. If so then I weigh a second "dip" of it so I have an idea what weight I am throwing, then I crimp a fairly stout roll crimp on that one and make four more just like it. Take it out and shoot. How does it group? If it groups up then that's my new measure. I braze a small brass handle onto the new measure, and mark the outside with a permanent marker as to what it's for. If it doesn't group up I trim a hair more off of the measure and try again. Then a hair more. Etc Etc. I can tell you this. From my experience it doesn't like taper crimps, light roll crimps, OR lighter loadings. And from everything I have read you should never EVER compress Trail Boss. It is claustrophobic, and will throw a fit if you do.

GoodOlBoy

[VinceG]

Tried it in .303 British and 7.62X39 Russian. Didn't like it. Accuracy was better with powders like Unique or 2400. Also experienced presser signs (flattened primers) at near starting loads. Still have half a pound left. It will probably sit on the shelf until my powder supply becomes really desperate.

[wrench man]

Use it in the 45 Colt and 44 Mag, I find that it acts like ball powders, you need to run it right at the top, and it runs in my Dillon 550 just fine!
If there is a better powder for the 45 Colt SAA (Uberti) it would make it a legitimate target pistol!, it runs just fine in my Marlin 1894 too!
Some guys complain that since you only get 9oz vs a pound that it cost more?, I figured the last bottle I purchased at $27 a pound, that's right on par, if not cheaper?, than any other powder these days.
If the craziness ever settles down? I plan purchasing a big o'l jug of it!

[44 Special]

For me, Trailboss works great in the 44 special and 45 Colt.
Not so good in the 44 magnum and 357 magnum.

[ballistim]

I bought 2 lbs. when it became hard to get a hold of, but still haven't used it since whenever I've considered it I've used something else that has worked well instead. I guess I'm holding onto it for the day I eventually get that .45 Colt :-)

[NSB]

I've got half a bottle of it sitting on my loading bench and it will probably sit there until I give it to some unspecting new shooter. Can someone just summarize and tell me what it's supposed to do well? From my perspective, it's good for high pressure and low velocity. What does it do well?

[dragon813gt]

What does it do well?

Fills the bottle w/ 9oz. so you think you're buying a cheap powder. Same bottle, less product is how manufacturer's increase their profit ;)

I know it's always been this way w/ Trail Boss. I don't have a need for it. I'm not afraid to load powders that I could double, or triple, charge and not have it overflow. I can see a purpose in large volume cases. But I'd buy Tin Star because while more money VV powders are almost always better than the competition.

[Guesser]

What got me into TB for 32-20 was the long narrow case. 3 gr. of B'eye ran away from the primer. 4 gr. of Unique did the same. As Ken Waters noted; you must tip the revolver up to reposition the charge over the primer each time before firing. This in order to gain consistent accuracy. I shoot 6 different 32-20 revolvers, same in all of them. Using 2.9 gr. of TB puts the charge in position no matter how the gun is held. Accuracy became consistent and groups as well as I can shoot. That's why I like TB.

[44 Special]

...Can someone just summarize and tell me what it's supposed to do well? ... What does it do well?

Trailboss was made primarily for Cowboy caliber cast lead bullets, like the 44 special and 45 Colt.
It works very well in those calibers.

A lot of people expect too much from Trailboss by trying to use it to achieve the same velocities that
they get from other powders. That's why it "usually" doesn't work very well in the magnum calibers.

The people that get bad results from Trailboss are usually pushing it too hard.
Back off on the powder charge and Trailboss will deliver.

[Groo]

Groo here
I have used trailboss some.
The best loads seem to be : light to normal cast boolets-90% to 100% powder charge [ not from chart, to bottom of boolet]
Hot primers [ I use winchester] and HEAVY crimp.
The 41mag load of 6gr trailboss[1/2gr under max] 215gr cast swc, win primer and heavy crimp has been so accurate as to be scarry.
Tried in 5 different guns 3 3/4in to 5 1/2 in all verry tight.
This is my school load.

[NSB]

Trailboss was made primarily for Cowboy caliber cast lead bullets, like the 44 special and 45 Colt.
It works very well in those calibers.

A lot of people expect too much from Trailboss by trying to use it to achieve the same velocities that
they get from other powders. That's why it "usually" doesn't work very well in the magnum calibers.

The people that get bad results from Trailboss are usually pushing it too hard.
Back off on the powder charge and Trailboss will deliver.

Still didn't answer the question......deliver what? What does it do that other powders don't already deliver? Why bother to even use it? This is a serious question. I'm not picking on Trail Boss. I never could figure out what it's supposed to do better?

[Groo]

Groo here
The purpose of Trailboss is to be shot in orginal BP shells that have big cases.
To fill said case so that a double charge could not be made.
To have a charge so large that even at 100% you will not damage things.
To allow a large range of loads safely [ light to heaver]
and to do so from powder measures and progressive.
Every see a powder that can throw such varied fillings of a case and have so little change in weight?

[Char-Gar]

I'm not sure what the big deal with this powder is other than that it fills the case pretty good and the cherrio shape is kinda neat.

That is it! You broke the code!

Rumors started floating around the Cowboy Action crowd about revolver being blown up with small charges of fast powder in the large 44 and 45 cases. Revolvers did blow up, however it was due to over charges of powder loaded on the progressive reloading machines. None-the-less powder powder and brass suppliers saw an opportunity to make and sell things.

One approach was to shorten the case (45 Scofield and 45 Cowboy Special) to give a case when an overcharge of powder would be noticed. The other approach was to develop a bulky powder. Ta daah, now you have Trail Boss and Tin Star.

The net result was people made money off careless reloaders. I guess there are some folks that need to be protected against themselves, but traditional pistol powders like Bulleye, 231, Unique and so forth work better in most applications. Human nature being what it is, many people expect something new to be better than something old and new products are touted as a big improvement which often they are not, as you have found out.

[Groo]

Groo here
The light charge Kboom has been around a long time, I first read about it when shooting PPC.
The blowup was with ultra light charges.
My theory is thus.
The primer blows the bullet from the case [ because of an undersized bullet, low case tension,no crimp,crack etc]
the powder,needing pressure to burn correctly does not "catch up" and the bullet stops at the forcing cone sealing the BC gap.
The pressure rises , due to the bullet not moving , and the powder does its thing.
All our powder pressures are built around a moving bullet [ increasing volume] and with a bullet stoped in the bc gap [ can you say plug]
the cylinder is converted to a pipe bomb.
Soon after this started , the minimum charge of Bullseye was increased almost a grain [ others to]
The Kboom is really a hangfire.
PS the same thing happens when the army uses too light a load in some cannons where range is set by charge.
Too light and the breach block comes off.

[35remington]

Claimed for Trailboss:

"To allow a large range of loads safely [ light to heaver]
and to do so from powder measures and progressive."

Existing powders already do this. Just know how much you're using is all that's required.

The not mentioned part about Trailboss is powder dispensing is poor in some instances. For example, the bulk of Trailboss often means it bridges in the drop tubes of some measures, which is not a benefit.

(Claimed in regard to Trailboss):

"Every see a powder that can throw such varied fillings of a case and have so little change in weight?"

While this is an attempt to state that varied fill amounts are still safe, varied fill amounts are indications that the load is NOT safe with other powders. So.......look and see how much powder is in there if you're using something like Bullseye or take steps to ensure that a double charge cannot be dispensed......like putting a bullet in the case right after it's charged.

All powders have downsides. Trailboss has downsides as well, including the bulk that may point to as a benefit actually being a liability, poor metering through drop tubes, and excessive cost compared to alternatives.

So be it. Make your choice based on your preferences and whether you care or not about the mentioned things. Trailboss is most assuredly not proof against light charges due to flow issues. It's just proof against too much powder due to carelessness. How you eliminate carelessness is up to you, but be sure you are not substituting powder configuration for taking the proper care in handloading.

Powder choice is NEVER a substitute for this, yet I see all too many willing to do so.

In other words, Plus one, Chargar.

[35remington]

And let's not talk about fast powder "blowup." It has no credibility.

The bell would toll for Trailboss just as for Bullseye if that theory had any credence to it.

[35remington]

Groo, just a quick question.

Why do you feel the need to start all your posts with "Groo here?"

Isn't your identification of "Groo" to the left of the text block enough identification? Do people regularly hijack your texts and post under your pseudonym without your knowledge, necessitating you saying "Groo here" to identify it's really Groo?

If they did want to hijack your pseudonym, they couldn't. I don't think we figure anyone would want to hijack your pseudonym anyway, nor do we figure if the poster is identified as Groo that Genghis Khan is posting instead.

Just whiling away my Sunday afternoon right now, I guess, with curiosity.

[dragon813gt]

^
Thank you. Talking in the third person always bothers me.

[jmort]

I like the "Groo here" intro. Touchy, touchy. Why so serious? BTW, "Groo here" is not a royal "we" but a first person deal. Not sure how you get there to "Talking in the third person always bothers me"

[Groo]

As you wish Just radio talk A "handle" you know.

[NSB]

Groo here
The purpose of Trailboss is to be shot in orginal BP shells that have big cases.
To fill said case so that a double charge could not be made.
To have a charge so large that even at 100% you will not damage things.
To allow a large range of loads safely [ light to heaver]
and to do so from powder measures and progressive.
Every see a powder that can throw such varied fillings of a case and have so little change in weight?
I can't buy into that. They tell you not to totally fill the case or a serious over pressure condition will develop. You have to make sure with Trailboss that you don't completely fill the case or a safety hazard will develop. I got it to try on a new 45-70 and other than high pressure and low velocity (and with very poor accuracy) it was a waste of money. Every other powder I have for the 45-70 works better, easier, and safer....as long as I don't double charge. If double charging is what it's supposed to prevent, I'd suggest that anyone who can't look into the case before seating the bullet should not be reloading in the first place. I still haven't heard one thing that Trailboss, itself, does better. Forget the alledged safety factor (which is BS) and tell me what Trailboss does better. I mean in some measurable way.

[35remington]

Yes, it's cute. Just pointing out it serves no purpose whatever. None of us were laboring under the presumption you weren't Groo.

Not being particularly serious, just curious about the really unnecessary intro. I've seen it many, many times......and finally I commented. If I did it the first time I saw it, that would be being serious. I let it go the first several dozen times I saw it, which means it's not of that much significance, but it does bring home the point that it's fluff I have to get past before getting to the point of his text.

As you were, Groo. Or was it really Bob?

[Char-Gar]

Just a point, for generations various factories loaded their 45 Colt ammo with Bulleye. There was no epidemic of blown up handguns.

Blowup became frequent when the cowboy shooters started pumping the handle of their progressive presses trying to fill up buckets with ammo.

[Artful]

I use trailboss as it's the best powder for subsonic loads in medium to larger rifle cases.
10.5 grains with 147 grn pulled FMJ in 308 case on a suppressed rifle is going to give you
the giggles when you hit metal at 300 yards.

[littlejack]

+ 1 with jmortimor.
I see absolutely nothing wrong with "Groo here". I like it. Maybe it identifies part of his personality?
The same thing COULD be said for a poster that types his/her name/handle at the end of their post,
myself included. We already know who wrote it, so why bother.
Just sayin.
Regards
Jack aka Littlejack

[wrench man]

Claimed for Trailboss: excessive cost compared to alternatives.

Is this simply because you use 6grns of TB and 3grns of your other favorite powder?, or are you comparing the current cost of TB to the 20# keg you purchased back in the 60's?, yes you only get 9oz of TB but if you figure it by the oz it's right on par with other powders these days, if you're paying high prices for TB you need to keep your knees together when you walk into your LGS so they can't get a hold of you down there!

If you don't like TB leave it on the shelf those of us that do.

[Harry O]

I have used Trail Boss in some 32-20's, 38-40's, 44-40's and 45LC since it first came out. The powder is not "better" than the powders I used for years before, but it is safer. For example, most of my 32-20 loads only filled the case 1/3 full at its maximum load. An accident waiting to happen.

When I started loading and shooting the 45LC recently, I bought enough Starline cases to satisfy my needs. My others calibers use pretty much whatever cases I was able to buy through the years, Remington, Peters, Winchester, Western, UMC and a few Federal. I did not have problems with them. However, I did have problems with the 45LC and Starline cases. Accuracy was poor and the load did not seal the case to the chamber. The front half of the cases came out black.

I notice that you said you used the minimum load. So did I, but it did not work. I then moved it up to the maximum listed loads. It still did not seal well. Then I loaded up a bunch of cartridges with increasing amounts of Trail Boss up to 8.7gr. When I got above about 7.5gr, the case started sealing and the accuracy increased dramatically. There was not much of a change in accuracy from there up to 8.7gr. The reason I stopped at 8.7gr was that it filled the case to the bottom of the seated bullet without compressing the powder. I have since loaded mine at 7.5gr with a 452424 255gr bullet and Starline cases. The guns are two new (smaller sized) Ruger Vaqueros. There was absolutely no problem with shooting them at 8.7gr.

I think that I did not have a problem with the other calibers because the brass I was using is so much thinner than Starline. That means it can seal while Starline needs more pressure to seal. It appears that the case must seal to be accurate. As soon as the cases stopped coming out black, the accuracy immediately improved.

Try a heavier load.

[jonp]

Groo, just a quick question.

Why do you feel the need to start all your posts with "Groo here?"

Isn't your identification of "Groo" to the left of the text block enough identification? Do people regularly hijack your texts and post under your pseudonym without your knowledge, necessitating you saying "Groo here" to identify it's really Groo?

If they did want to hijack your pseudonym, they couldn't. I don't think we figure anyone would want to hijack your pseudonym anyway, nor do we figure if the poster is identified as Groo that Genghis Khan is posting instead.

Just whiling away my Sunday afternoon right now, I guess, with curiosity.

jonp here.

Why does that bother you so much?

[Tackleberry41]

TB was sort of designed around CASS. To be able to use smokeless in those old pistols, along with cast bullets. I had good luck w it in 45 colt, but wasnt based on accuracy or how dirty it was, but being used in a BP conversion cylinder. Worked great in that application. I just had a scoop using a 45ACP case. I wouldn't try it at all in a magnum anything, and why some arent impressed with it. Trying to use it for stuff its not made to do. Its not sold as replacement for Unique or other powders. Its not made to try to push jacketed bullets.

I have found it useful in other applications, was pretty easy experimenting w 223 subsonic loads. Tried several powders before finding the TB to be the quietest one in 45 colt w heavy cast 300gr. Others just had more blast noise thru a can. And it is useful in my 577/450 martini loads.

Some say your being cheated w a 9oz bottle. Well it is fluffier so a 1lbs bottle would be nearly 2x as tall. They can use existing bottles, and they stack the same as other types. I have paid $15 a bottle, so works out to close to $30lbs, or the price of most stuff on the shelf anymore.

[Duckiller]

Trail Boss is gun powder. Load it in a cartridge that is placed in a gun, pull the trigger on the gun and Trail Boss will ignite and push a bullet out the end of the barrel. What more is it supposed to do? It is not some magic powder. I have various powders that I use to load different calibres. I happen to like Trail Boss to load light loads in 45/70. If you think it is too expensive then don't buy it. If you don't know that you are buying 9oz. instead of a pound then maybe you shouldn't be reloading at all.

[dtknowles]

Trail Boss is gun powder. Load it in a cartridge that is placed in a gun, pull the trigger on the gun and Trail Boss will ignite and push a bullet out the end of the barrel. What more is it supposed to do? It is not some magic powder. I have various powders that I use to load different calibres. I happen to like Trail Boss to load light loads in 45/70. If you think it is too expensive then don't buy it. If you don't know that you are buying 9oz. instead of a pound then maybe you shouldn't be reloading at all.

That seems kind of harsh, I bought a bottle when it first came out. I was surprised it was not a pound, every other powder I bought in a similar bottle was a pound. I figured it out before I got to the cash register since it was cheaper than other powders I looked more closely at the label. I thought I was going to use it in my blackpowder era revolvers but after looking at the pressures vs. velocity I stuck with more traditional low pressure smokeless loads from Lyman handbooks. I still have a good bit of that old bottle left. I could find a way to use it up but there is no rush.

Tim

[Dframe]

I love the stuff, and use it for ALL the revolver rounds I load for. Very unlikely to ever overcharge, burns fairly clean (way better than bullseye or unique) meters well through all of my measures. Whats not to like? To each his own. For those who don't like it, don't use it. I will continue to load with it.

[18Bravo]

Looks like I'm going to be the odd man out. I like Trail Boss and have used it since it hit the market. As others have mentioned it's not the holly grail of powders and does have limited applications but overall I can load it in any larger cased round that has a lead boolit in front of it. Some do better than others. One of my favorite (and accurate) loads is 6.9gr of TB in back of a 240gr SWC for my 44 Mag. I've also had good results with 44 Special and 45ACP. Heck, I've even used 2.2gr/148 DEWC with great results in 38 Special.


Yes, it smokes a little. I believe this was by design to make the CAS guys and girls happy. I'm not too concerned about overcharging but, as mentioned, it almost impossible to do with TB. For me the big plus is case fill. I like the fact that in most loads TB gives you nearly a case full of powder. I was always under the impression that a fuller case offered more consistent ignition thus creating more predictable performance. I'd rather have a compressed load of TB than the same powder weight of 231 that barely covers the primer. This has always been the school of thought for rifle loads.

As far as price, before the shortage I was paying $12 to $13 per bottle. Recob Target, while not in stock, still has it advertised for less than $14. that averages out to around $24 a pound. Pretty much in line with everything else out there.

[shorty500M]

am an odd man out but it serves its purpose, low recoil,low velocity loads with an extremely high load density.

[Guesser]

I like it in the older small cartridges; 32-20, 32 S&W and Long, and others. I do not use it in modern high pressure rounds; 357, 41, 44.

[MarkP]

am an odd man out but it serves its purpose, low recoil,low velocity loads with an extremely high load density.

Yes it does!

I love it in bottle neck rifle cartridges with both cast and jacketed. Before Trailboss I never considered trying to download my 300 Wby; now I shoot 200 gr cast at 1,700 fps. Used it extensively in my daughter's 243, with 95 gr RCBS, 75 gr NOE, and 65 gr V-Max.

[VintageRifle]

Here is a link to IMR Trailboss load data for calculating minimum and maximum loads.

www.imrpowder.com/PDF/Trail-Boss-data.pdf

[Radarsonwheels]

I like trailboss for 500 S&W special. H-110 in my snubnose 500 magnum is fun for five or ten rounds or in case there are three bears waiting in line to eat me but there's indeed something 'special' about an ounce of lead going 45acp speed.

I use titegroup or bullseye in the small old stuff- I was worried I wouldn't be able to get enough TB in a 38 S&W case to clear the muzzle of my 100 year old police positive.

I've also used TB to load 30-30 for my wife to shoot- full power ammo in a light '94 lever gun is no fun for her and a bottle of TB is MUCH cheaper than a pistol caliber levergun.

I will admit I haven't found any great accuracy in the powder but it does fine for offhand pistol and carbine shooting <25 yards.

Radar over and out.

PS let the man have his CB radio chatter style it's not like he writes ALL CAPS or doesn't understand paragraphs or complete sentences!

[35 Whelen]

IMR Cheerios. I've never tried it nor will I. I chuckle when people say "I bought a pound of Trail Boss to try." No you didn't....you bought 9 oz. and you paid nearly as much for those 9 ounces as you would for 1 lb. of other handgun/shotgun powders.

I still maintain that it teaches bad habits. How many times have new handloaders been told "Since you're new at this, use Trail Boss and you won't have to worry about double charges!" Huh? Shouldn't new handloaders be taught to check, double check, then check again for double charges? I most certainly was taught that.

The only application I can see for it is CAS shooters who ONLY load on progressive equipment.

35W

[truckboss]

Truckboss here,This powder is just one more tool in the box.If the tool fits(you must acquit)use it ,if it doesn't then grab another one.

[Certaindeaf]

Groo, just a quick question.

Why do you feel the need to start all your posts with "Groo here?"

Isn't your identification of "Groo" to the left of the text block enough identification? Do people regularly hijack your texts and post under your pseudonym without your knowledge, necessitating you saying "Groo here" to identify it's really Groo?

If they did want to hijack your pseudonym, they couldn't. I don't think we figure anyone would want to hijack your pseudonym anyway, nor do we figure if the poster is identified as Groo that Genghis Khan is posting instead.

Just whiling away my Sunday afternoon right now, I guess, with curiosity.
I wondered that myself but with his simple explanation, it makes perfect sense. I hadn't even thought of it like that. over and out!

[hanleyfan]

Trail boss is just a powder for a purpose like any other, If you don't like it just use what do like, why get on here try to convince everyone how bad it is. When I first started reloading I bought some W231 because a lot of people recommended it, I hated the stuff, and will not buy anymore. but I don't get on here and proclaim how bad it is, I wonder how many have really used it since their results are far from what I am getting with it.

[18Bravo]

Trail boss is just a powder for a purpose like any other, If you don't like it just use what do like, why get on here try to convince everyone how bad it is. When I first started reloading I bought some W231 because a lot of people recommended it, I hated the stuff, and will not buy anymore. but I don't get on here and proclaim how bad it is, I wonder how many have really used it since their results are far from what I am getting with it.

hanleyfan,
I'm afraid to say this, but you probably aren't going to win the prestigious Sugar Coating of the Year Award. However....you said what I believe a lot of us are thinking but don't want to say out loud. My favorites are always the ones that go; "I've never bought it, never tried it but absolutely hate it" comments. Oh well, at least it makes interesting reading.

truth is, I wish everyone would start hating TB a lot more. Maybe then I could find another 10lbs!

[gtgeorge]

TB is just another choice out there and I for one am glad to use it. I still have over half of my first 5 # but have had a lot of fun making my 7mm rem mag shoot-able with cast for my youngest as well as a few super light recoil loads for various calibers. Some have turned out to be quite accurate and will cycle the action on an auto loader when others won't with the same velocity.

Like many things in life I am thanklful for "choices" and understand that not everybody has the same opinion or likes. It does have a really odd smell burning that I just can't cozy up to though. Almost smells like standing around :takinWiz:

[jonp]

Seems like many like it so maybe I was unfair or missed something. I'll give it another try in the 38sp and 357Mag, 45lc

[Bzcraig]

Seems like many like it so maybe I was unfair or missed something. I'll give it another try in the 38sp and 357Mag, 45lc

I get great accuracy and 22lr recoil with 3-3.5 grains with the Lee 105gr swc in my 38's.

[35 Whelen]

I wasn't trying to convince anyone to not use the powder. My point is it does nothing ballistically that any existing powder will already do. I have a huge assortment of pistol powders on my shelf and I don't dislike any of them. Granted, some are far more versatile than others, but they all have their niche'.

35W

[Lefty Red]

Lefty here,

I bought TB when I couldn't find anything else. Tried it in my 357 magnum rifle loads and found out that a full case with a 158 grain RN would hit POA as my hunting load of 158 grain XTP. But has no recoil and son likes that. I like it.

Also, it costed about $14 for 9 ounces. So its in the same price range as the "regular" powders at $26 a pound.

I dip the loads, cause its messy to use on a progressive.

Jerry

[kweidner]

I use trailboss as it's the best powder for subsonic loads in medium to larger rifle cases.
10.5 grains with 147 grn pulled FMJ in 308 case on a suppressed rifle is going to give you
the giggles when you hit metal at 300 yards.


Yes Sir you hit it on the head. Fantastic if you run things like .308 suppressed and arelooking for subsonic loads. Also Groo was spot on with .41 data.

[Fishman]

The best use I've found for Trailboss was showing my son the ropes while reloading for the .32 mag. What kid doesn't like cheerios? He really enjoyed it and it was very difficult for him to make a mistake we couldn't see. As far as I'm concerned, that's good enough justification for its existence and more than some other powders have.

[Guesser]

Ballistically speaking; It fills the case on my 32-20, accuracy improved in all my Colt and Ubertti hand guns chambered for the little bottle neck cartridge. Read what Ken Waters had to say about small charges in the case. TB fills the case and makes for a more consistent burn. You'll get the same effect with 2400 but I don't shoot heavy charges in my old guns. That's why I like TB.

[oldred]

Back early on when I tried TB I decided I didn't care for it BUT that was because I bought it with the wrong kind of shooting in mind and I think maybe that's where all this disagreement comes from. After learning about TB I realized that while yes it did fill up those big cases it does so at a very low velocity which is exactly what some folks want from it and those people are will usually like the stuff a lot, nothing at all wrong with that! Evidently there is a good demand for this stuff otherwise they couldn't sell so much of it and while it didn't work for me I understand why it did not and that was not the powder's fault, I was simply using it for the wrong thing. If you are needing/wanting low velocities with good accuracy then TrailBoss may be just the ticket!

One problem I do have with TB is the (what seems to be anyway) misconception that because of the very low velocity associated with TB that it must be a low pressure powder so it is always safe in Black Powder firearms, this is of course not always the case. In large volume cartridges TB can and does make some rather high pressures in relation to the very low velocity, according to Hodgdon's data it can produce about twice the pressure at similar velocities vs some other powders in some loadings. This doesn't necessarily make it dangerous but it does mean it's not direct substitute for BP as some folks seem to think it is.

About the price/weight per container, unless a person is shooting a LOT then I suppose it doesn't matter much but it would seem that TB is at least somewhat pricier to shoot. It has been correctly pointed out that while it's only 9 oz to the bottle vs a full pound for other powders it's so light that 9 oz is actually as much powder per container as other powders so that should even out the price. This however does not take into consideration that the very purpose of TB is to use more of it (usually about two or even three times as much by volume) in order to produce those filled cases TB users seems to want. Yes that 9 oz container is about as much as a pound by volume but each shot is going to consume a lot more of that equal volume!

Not trying at all to knock TrailBoss because if it does what you want from it then it fills the bill but if your wants/needs are for something other than mild low velocity loads you probably won't like it, there are lot's of other powders some of us don't use because they don't work with the type of shooting we do and we don't knock them so why pick on TrailBoss?

[Markbo]

I always look forward to "Groo here". We all have our speaking quirks. I was told (since I had never noticed myself) that when I say "Saturday" I pronounce it "Sa-r-dy". We all have some. Keep up the good Groo!

FWIW I dont get the big fuss over trail boss. I have tried it extensively in .45 Colt & .44 Special. Nothing special about it. In facf worse accuracy across the board. Havent found any needed use for it really.

[1bluehorse]

am an odd man out but it serves its purpose, low recoil,low velocity loads with an extremely high load density.




EXACTLY............I have no idea if TB was "designed, or manufactured" for CASS shooters for "old" black powder guns or not....doesn't matter....what it does do is stated above, and it does it very well.....I find it an accurate fun shootin' powder that you can load in your 45 colt with 6 or 6 1/2 grains under a 260gr lead bullet, get about 800fps, shoot it one handed and hit the target.....very low recoil .....just plain fun,....if that ain't "fun" to you then use a different powder....it's not for high(er) velocity "hunting" type rounds (however a 260gr. bullet at 800fps would certainly work for deer size game at least to 50 yds)...... use it for what it was intended for (see above reply).....while most of my 45 colt and 44 mag loads are with slower powders like Unique, Herco and 2400, TB is still a powder I like to use for just plain "fun" shootin.....however it does smell a bit "funny" upon bullet exit....I only have 2 9oz bottles left and would by a 4 or 8 lber if I could find one....it's a great powder for what "I" think it was designed for....fun.....:p

[Markbo]

Lets see if I understand; slow, stinky, dirty, hard to measure/cut, worse accuracy.
Oh yeah...whats not to like! :D

[1bluehorse]

Lets see if I understand; slow, stinky, dirty, hard to measure/cut, worse accuracy.
Oh yeah...whats not to like! :D


Wish everyone thought like that...........then I might be able to find some to buy...

[opos]

I've shot a lot of t/b in my 45Colt..I shoot a 12 harness RNFP from Missouri and t/b...sort of a "middle" cowboy load...I get good accuracy..it burns just fine (clean enough) and being an older guy I like the bulk...I'm careful and weigh all loads so the things I hear about not working in a dispenser isn't an issue for me...I've still got a few pounds of it and it gets the call for my 45 Colt loads...I also shoot 44 special and have had similar results. I don't try to load high pressure magnum cases with it..just the 44 special and 45 colt.

[wquiles]

So far I have tried TB on my 44Mag and on my 45/70. Too little power in the 44Mag application, but it is working great with my lower end loads in 45/70, where the near-full case with a 300gr cast bullet is proving pretty accurate at 50yards and has little recoil :)

[gtgeorge]

After a little thought I decided to also address a comment/question about what TB does better and what void it fills.

Well it is the one single jug I would be able to load any cartridge with by filling the case just under the bullet base and stuffing a primer and bullet in and knowing it would launch the projectile. No further looking for load data measures etc. needed and would feel safe knowing there would be no exploded parts flying off in the air as well as no missing body parts or new holes.

I could load with this powder under primitive conditions if I had too.....Kindda like the good old Black Powder days :) except it isn't nearly as dangerous to handle and store.

[Markbo]

Well if Armageddon is imminent I hope we can all stock up.

[Ola]

I do not know about Trail Boss but Tin Star has A lot of applications: The light Cowboy loads, light Silhuette loads (f.e. in .300 Whisper), subsonic hunting rifle loads.. some even use it in shotgun loads.

[dtknowles]

I think Trail Boss is a fine powder but I bought some before I really looked at the data and now don't think it is a good choice for the purpose I intended. I can still find a use for it, not sad I have some.

Tim

[fouronesix]

Hard to believe reloaders have trouble understanding Trailboss. Just look in any load manual or burn rate chart and see how it compares to other powders and where it would be applicable or not. No mystery about the powder. I think, unfortunately, people insist on equating density with burn rate. Also interesting they swear by Bullseye, 700X, Red Dot, etc. for whatever application then have a huge problem when Trailboss doesn't deliver high velocity with low pressure. It is SIMPLY a fast powder like Bullseye, 700X, Red Dot, etc. but is LOW DENSITY. Nope, not much mystery. IMO, it's best application is for use in really high expansion ratio cartridges like the short straight wall and semi straight wall pistol cartridges. And yes, very similar in application for similar velocity to pressure ratios as for the "favorites" like Bullseye, 700X, Red Dot, etc.

BTW, it is the most accurately metering small charge powder out of my Lyman 55…. probably because of its low density.

[jonp]

Wow did I start something or what? I'm not looking for velocity or anything. I just thought it would be a nice powder to try and did not find that it did anything other powders didn't do already. Fills the case and that is about all for me. One strong point is how versatile it is.

[Ola]

I don't know how Trail Boss is market in USA, but here Vihtavuori Tin Star is marketed as a SAFETY powder: the sole purpose is to eliminate the risk double (or triple) charge. Vihtavuori have "traditional" powders that give the same velocities etc so SAFETY is the only reason Tin Star exists.

The reason f.e. I know how versatile Tin Star actually is are the shooters that try things out. Vihtavuori-factory doesn't seem to have any idea, they are still selling it as a "special powder for cowboy-loads".

[jonp]

Ok, I started from scratch and instead of using the IMR Site for loading info I used the "bottom of the bullet" method. With a Lee 358158 that max was 4.6gr. I started at 3.4gr, 4.0gr and 4.4gr. All shot from 30ft with a 50th Anniversary BH

3.4gr
128717

4.0gr
128718

4.4gr
128719

Much better results this go around

[Ola]

Is there any .300 Blackout shooters around? Have you tried Trail Boss in it? I'm curious: is there enough power to cycle the action of the rifle?

[35remington]

You need to skip that idea. Port pressures are way too low with fast powders to cycle an action of the gas operated type. They are intended for much slower powders.

[Ola]

I thought so but wasn't sure. It's a shame. Because Trail Boss should be excellent in .300 Whisper / Blackout like Vihtavuori Tin Star is: excellent accuracy and very low recoil. But we have only tried it in single shot guns like T/C Contender.

[18Bravo]

Ok, I started from scratch and instead of using the IMR Site for loading info I used the "bottom of the bullet" method. With a Lee 358158 that max was 4.6gr. I started at 3.4gr, 4.0gr and 4.4gr. All shot from 30ft with a 50th Anniversary BH

3.4gr
128717

4.0gr
128718

4.4gr
128719

Much better results this go around

Looks good to me. But then again I can't see and I shake like a junkie in withdraw when I shoot! Great to be getting old...
Truthfully, those groups are pretty much the same that I get using 6.9gr of TB in back of a 240gr LSWC out of my 629. As I mentioned in a previous post it takes a bit to work up a good load with TB but once you find the sweet spot it's a great powder and has decent accuracy.