45 Special

[Char-Gar]

It has been several weeks since I have been able to get out to the shooting range. Bad weather and bad roads keep me going there. I was at last able to try out my 45 Special Cowboy round. This is a special case made by Star Line which is nothing more than a 45 ACP case with a 45 Colt rim. It works to perfection in single action cylinders chambered for the 45 ACP round. This enable the case to headspace on the rim instead of the case mouth, thus allowing the use of bullet held by a roll crimp.

I loaded some of this brass up with 452423 a Keith 240 grain SWC over 4.5 grains of Bulleye with the case mouth roll crimped in the crimp groove of the bullet. While not a hot load, it is not a wimp either. It has a nice snappy recoil and the Keith bullets hit with authority.

The bullets were sized .452 for use in the .453 throats of my U.S. Ptn. F.A. single action. In spite of the very small sights and my 72 years old eyes, I was able to turn in nice round 5 shot groups at 25 yards that shot to the sights. The groups ran 2.5 to 2.75 inches at 25 yards which is about all I can do shooting two handed standing. Considering the sights I was delighted with this.

Clean up was a snap with a bore brush and Ed's Red. All that was in the gun was the usual powder and lube trash, no leading.

Next week I will try the same load in the 45 ACP cylinder of my Lipsey's 45 Flattop. These throats run .452 and the round will chamber fine although they require a little encouragement from my thumb the last little bit as the front driving band entered the same size throat.

All in all I am quite encouraged with the results on my first outing with the 45 Special. Here is the pistol;

[44 Special]

Very interesting. Thanks for posting that.

[bedbugbilly]

I don't have my reloading manuals with me to check casing specs so will ask . .

The "special" casings that you mention by Star Line - are they not the same as the 45 Auto Rim casing or are they different?

Sounds like you had a great time and found a great combination to shoot! Nothing like some good 'ol single action fun!

Also - what die are you using to put the roll crimp on those?

The reason I'm interested is that I'm looking at getting a Uberti SAA in 45 and have given some consideration to getting the combination model with the 45 Colt cylinder and 45ACP cylinder. Just don't know if I would shoot the ACP cylinder that much to justify the combination model but from your post, I can see where it has a lot of potential and might be fun to have.

Thanks Char Gar! Interesting post! Hope to hear more of your fun with this combination!

[Nueces]

The Cowboy 45 Specials are designed as short 45 Colt cases, to be fired in 45 Colt chambers. The case rims are 45 Colt rims, not the thicker Auto Rim ones. They are the lame length as 45 ACP or 45 Auto Rim. Because of the nearness in case diameter, they can easily be loaded with ACP dies and crimped with Auto Rim roll crimp dies for use in single action ACP cylinders. You can't make Special cases from the Auto Rim because the Auto Rim has a deeply chamfered rear face, so thinning the rim from the front would leave but a vestigial rim for headspacing.

I think they're as cool as the other side of the pillow in my Ruger Flat Top 45. It lets us go the other way from using fluffy powders in big cases - use instead regular powders in a smaller case.

I have an old RCBS Auto Rim roll crimp die, but Redding also makes their Profile Crimp die for the AR. Dillon may make their AccuCrimp for it, too.

[Char-Gar]

Bedbug.... Nueces is correct about the difference between Auto Rim cases and 45 Special. The AR rim is thicker and while they work in Colt and S&W da six guns they won't work in sa six guns.

I use a 45 Colt she'll holder and 45ACP dies. I have both Lyman and Rcbs 45ACP dies and they both roll crimp in the seating die.

[bedbugbilly]

Ahhh! Thank you! That makes sense and I greatly appreciate your explanation! So basically the "Special" is a "45 Short" - so to speak. (A loose comparison would be the 38 Colt Short versus the 38 Colt Long - I love these two casings!).

I was wondering the other day as I was thinking about a 45 Colt SAA if there was such a thing as a "short" casing (for want of a better word) and this certainly answers that question - nice to know!

Now for another question - which may seem on the stupid side but my old mind is "befuddled" with it. On a SAA as described - which has separate cylinders (again an assumption) - one for 45 ACP and one for 45 Colt (Long - even though many will take issue with the term "Long"). If I am understanding the "combination" SAA revolver - it has two cylinders? So, can you explain the design of the 45 ACP cylinder. On a "swing out" cylinder design, it's my understanding that "moon clips" are used. On the SAA design though - I'm assuming that the 45ACP cylinder is loaded through the loading gate? So, it would headspace in the cylinder just as it would in a semi-auto barrel. So is the 45 ACP cylinder in essence a little longer than the standard 45 Colt cylinder which allows for the thickness of the rim (on the 45 Colt) between the back of the cylinder and the recoil plate - whereas the 45 ACP cylinder would set the base of the ACP casing tighter against the recoil plate? Or am I misunderstanding this?

Char Gar states . . .

"It works to perfection in single action cylinders chambered for the 45 ACP round."

So could you clear this up for me - is he shooting the Starline "special" in the 45 Colt cylinder or the ACP Cylinder? Or, am I misunderstanding that there are two separate cylinders - 1 for the 45ACP and 1 for the 45 Colt??

Thanks for the information and for straightening my thoughts out on this. Knowing about the Starline "special" just makes me more eager to get a 45 and have a number of options as far as brass goes.

And Char Gar - I always enjoy your threads as I learn so much from them!

[too many things]

schofield is about same I use them in a 460 S&W for light loads

[Nueces]

bbb, you asked Charles, but I hope you won't mind if I take a shot at answering (again). The convertible single actions have two cylinders, for 45 Colt and for 45 ACP (not Auto Rim). On my Ruger, both cylinders are the same length. The ACP round does headspace on the chamber mouth, but there is space at the rear of that cylinder that can accommodate a rim, just as there is on the 45 Colt cylinder. That's why the Special case will work in the ACP cylinder. It'll also work in the 45 Cot cylinder. That's where it's used by some cowboy action shooters, who want to avoid small charges in the big 45 Colt case.

Think of an ACP case in it's cylinder, located at the rear by the recoil shield and at the front by the case rim rebate in the chamber. Now grow a 45 Colt rim on this case, which fits into the narrow gap at the rear of the cylinder - that's the Special case.

tmt correctly calls out another short case in the 45 Schofield. They're much cheaper than the Special, if a bit longer. They won't work in an ACP cylinder, only the 45 Colt. I use 'em all.

The 45 Auto Rim in the big Smith M-25 was my first large bore revolver. I looked into modifying various single action 45 ACP cylinders to accept the AR case, but this Special case takes care of all that in one, no cutting involved. It's very cool.

[bedbugbilly]

Nueces . . . got it! Thank you very much - appreciate the explanation! That clears it up and gets my thinking "straight" on it! LOL

When I was thinking about the shorter cases for the 45 Colt - I'd completely forgotten about the Schofield. It's heck getting old! :-)

I load a lot of 39 Colt short, long and special. I like the option of the 38 short and have a lot of fun with it. I load the 38 longs primarily because I have 'em but it's only about a 1/10" or so shorter than the spl. so really isn't a big change. If I had a '72 open top, then I'd be loading the 38 longs for that - but that is on the "want" list for the '72 open top. :-)

I'm looking at getting a 45 Colt and adding that cartridge just because of the history of it. I'm getting older and too often we "put things off" and then realize that time has run out. What you fellows are describing sounds like there is a lot of different ways to "play" with the 45 - all of them interesting!

Thanks again for the "lesson" - I greatly appreciate it. Everyday I learn something new on here!

[Nueces]

Yowza, yer welcome!

[Char-Gar]

You can get a 45 Special case for use in 45 ACP cylinders by buying them, or you can shorten 45 Colt cases and get the same thing, but with a 45 Colt head stamp. I have made them by running 45 Colt cases into a 45 ACP file trim die and cutting off the excess with a fine tooth hacksaw. The resulting case is a little long and then it is dressed down to proper length in a case trimmer.
It is a little labor intensive, but is a cheaper way to go as the 45 Special cases can be more pricey than 45 Colt cases.

My primary motive in going with the 45 Special was to get a better accuracy out of the above pictured handgun. The 45 Colt cylinder has .457 throats and the 45 ACP cylinder has .453 throats. A .452 bullet in the 45 Special cases produces very good accuracy in the ACP cylinder. I continue to be amazed how a bullet can fly down that long throat before it hits the barrel forcing cone and still produce good accuracy, but they can and do.

It is just gravy that this load also produces great result in the 45 ACP cylinder of my Lipsey's 45 Flattop Convertible.

As an aside, Ed Harris was playing with these cases in his Ruger convertible and getting good results. He also lapped the rear end of the cylinder throat to get rid of microburrs there left over the the reaming. He used a 30-06 case coated with 600 grit emery paste to do the job. I did the same thing in both of my SA cylinders and I am convinced it helped in the accuracy department.

The U.S. Ptn. F.A. sixgun pictured above is good looking but it is a clone of a very primitive cartridge revolver. The sights are 1973 style as are the grips. It takes very careful attention to how you hold this handgun as the point of aim can walk around if your grip is inconsistent or your trigger finger bears against the frame. However for quick point shooting at close ranges, it is a hoot and deadly as well.

The Ruger Flattop is big improvement with it visible adjustable sights and larger profile grips. Mine is a wonderful sixgun. I have read some folks that were not happy with theirs on this site, but I have had experience with four of them and all have been truly great sixguns. I just have to scratch my head and wonder if the unhappy folks got bad sixguns, which can happen or have perception issues, which can also happen.

[Char-Gar]

The 45 Auto Rim in the big Smith M-25 was my first large bore revolver. I looked into modifying various single action 45 ACP cylinders to accept the AR case, but this Special case takes care of all that in one, no cutting involved. It's very cool.

Some folks have modified their 45 ACP cylinders to take the Auto Rim case by turning off some metal on the back of the cylinder to accommodate the thick AR rim. This will work fine on the large Ruger New Model cylinder, but on the smaller New Vaquero/Flattop cylinders you will get into the ratchet when trying to do so. To modify a smaller cylinder you will have to pocket mill each charge hole to take the thicker rim, a much more involved machining operation.

As you noted using the 45 Special case or shortening the 45 Colt case gets you to the same place without having to modify your revolver cylinder.

[MT Gianni]

Char-Gar, is there a link to Ed Harris's work on this? Thanks.

[Char-Gar]

Char-Gar, is there a link to Ed Harris's work on this? Thanks.

I read Ed's article in the Fouling Shot, which I don't believe is available online.

Ed Harris and Glen Fryxell are two guys whose opinions I hold in high regard. If they held an opinion contrary to mine, that would cause me to back up and rethink my own opinion. It might not change, but I would most certainly question it and give the whole issue a through going over. Lucky for me, that doesn't happen often. I do so hate being wrong and having to change my opinion. :-)

[bedbugbilly]

Char-Gar - thanks for the fine information . . . and thank you for your help and advice - greatly appreciated!

I went to Star Line's site - pulled down their cartridges but can't find their "45 Special". Was this by any chance a "special run" for another outlet or do they just not list it? Thanks again!

Jim

[docone31]

What about a .45 Schofield for a Special?

[Nueces]

Until last week, the sole source for Cowboy 45 Special brass has been http://cowboy45specialbrass.blogspot.com , out of San Antonio. The brass was made for them by Starline. The business has been sold, as explained on the cited site (heh). I haven't turned up contact info for the new distributors, but Miss Cubbie appears to be updating her site regularly, so we'll wait.

[DougGuy]

Not to steer this thread, but I am keeping an eye open for a donor .45x5 1/2" New Model Vaquero convertible for a project much like this. I plan on reaming the .45 ACP cylinder to accept .45 Schofield brass so that I can use it to develop tier 2 (23,000 psi) loads that will take advantage of the smaller case capacity and offer a more consistent burn as opposed to mid-loading the .45 Colt cases.

Ruger gave us a fine and dandy medium framed revolver but there aren't many 23,000psi published loads for the .45 Colt since there never was a SAAMI +P spec for this cartridge and I think a dedicated +P load in shorter brass has the potential to really let these medium framed .45 caliber guns really shine. 255gr to 280gr boolits at 1175f/s is my target. Yes it can be done in .45 Colt brass, but it's just not the same.

[Nueces]

DougGuy, I like the way you think. My own project (of many fallow years) involves an old S&W 5-Screw M-27 with a buggered barrel. To go with it, I have a semi-finished factory 1950 Target 45 barrel. Idea is to cut the barrel to 5" and checker the top rib to match the frame, then tight chamber the cylinder to 45 S&W (Schofield). Those Smith 357 cylinders are too short to accept many full weight 45 slugs seated to the crimp groove. I rather think it'd be unique and very capable.

[Char-Gar]

Not to steer this thread, but I am keeping an eye open for a donor .45x5 1/2" New Model Vaquero convertible for a project much like this. I plan on reaming the .45 ACP cylinder to accept .45 Schofield brass so that I can use it to develop tier 2 (23,000 psi) loads that will take advantage of the smaller case capacity and offer a more consistent burn as opposed to mid-loading the .45 Colt cases.

Ruger gave us a fine and dandy medium framed revolver but there aren't many 23,000psi published loads for the .45 Colt since there never was a SAAMI +P spec for this cartridge and I think a dedicated +P load in shorter brass has the potential to really let these medium framed .45 caliber guns really shine. 255gr to 280gr boolits at 1175f/s is my target. Yes it can be done in .45 Colt brass, but it's just not the same.

Let me start by saying that I don't plan on doing it, BUT. I have wondered just how much either a 45 Special or shortened 45 Colt case in a 45 ACP cylinder can be pushed. A few years back, John Taffin pushed a 250 - 260 grain bullet 1,200 fps in the 45 Auto Rim case using 2400 powder and he said it was safe. I have loaded some of those and shot them in my Smith and Wesson 25-2 and they did just fine.

Both the 45 Special and shortened 45 Colt case has more powder capacity than the Auto Rim. When I compare shortened 45 Colt Starline case to a 45 Special case, I find the shortened Colt has more powder capacity yet.

So the question would be, does one have to go to the Schofield length case to get you where you want to be.

Just thinking outloud.

[TCStehle]

Char-Gar,

I have this article (http://www.handloads.com/articles/default.asp?id=41) bookmarked. The author pushed 230gr FMJ to about 1200fps using 45 Auto brass in a 5.5" NM Blackhawk with Longshot and starting load data for the 460 Rowland.

[DougGuy]

Let me start by saying that I don't plan on doing it, BUT. I have wondered just how much either a 45 Special or shortened 45 Colt case in a 45 ACP cylinder can be pushed. A few years back, John Taffin pushed a 250 - 260 grain bullet 1,200 fps in the 45 Auto Rim case using 2400 powder and he said it was safe. I have loaded some of those and shot them in my Smith and Wesson 25-2 and they did just fine.

Both the 45 Special and shortened 45 Colt case has more powder capacity than the Auto Rim. When I compare shortened 45 Colt Starline case to a 45 Special case, I find the shortened Colt has more powder capacity yet.

So the question would be, does one have to go to the Schofield length case to get you where you want to be.

Just thinking outloud.

There may indeed be a loading in the .45 Special case that would reach 1175f/s with a lighter boolit, and possibly with the 255gr boolit. I am thinking of the Schofield case as being more roomy so it lends itself well to your chosen seating depth which the Special case may already mandate seating the boolit out long, past the crimp groove if there is one. Also there is the choice of whatever style crimp one wants to use. It just seems to me that the Schofield brass with 255gr ~ 280gr boolits would have a lot going for it and be a great starting point for the perfect 23,000psi Tier 2 cartridge.

Finally, there is the cylinder throat issue to overcome. The long and sloppy freebore of shooting .45 Special in .45 Colt cylinders has to be a detriment to accuracy. Reaming a .45 ACP cylinder with .4525" throats to take out the headspace ledge would be much improved over the .45 Colt cylinder, I am thinking that there is a lot of good reasons to take the Schofield route.

[Char-Gar]

Finally, there is the cylinder throat issue to overcome. The long and sloppy freebore of shooting .45 Special in .45 Colt cylinders has to be a detriment to accuracy. Reaming a .45 ACP cylinder with .4525" throats to take out the headspace ledge would be much improved over the .45 Colt cylinder, I am thinking that there is a lot of good reasons to take the Schofield route.

Yes, it would seem setting a bullet loose from a 45 Special case in the longer 45 Colt charge holes would not be conducive to high grade accuracy. that bullet would have quite a bit of free flight before it slammed into the cylinder throat. The bullet would travel it's length unsupported and unaligned. That just can't be good.

However, with a 45 ACP cylinder, the bullet does directly from the case into the throat. it would also seem the long throat would be detrimental to accuracy, but it doesn't seem to work that way. This is one of those cases where reality trumps theory.

I have not found the headspace ledge in the ACP cylinder to be a problem. I have lapped the ends of the throats to remove any micro-burrs and wire edges found there and that does help. In my case I use Keith style bullets (452423) and the front band goes into the throat without a hitch. I size my bullets .452 and the throats on my U.S.Ptn. F.A. is .453 and the throats on my Ruger Flatop are .452, so they are far from sloppy. The bullets start down the throats well aligned and supported. Groups are very good, being nice and round and tight. The limits on accuracy would be the sights, the ability of the shooter and of course the quality of the sixgun.

Anyway, there are folks whose cylinders are reamed for Schofield cases and they seem to think they are the bees knees, to use a dated expression. I have no doubt you will be pleased with your project as it is a sound ideas. I was just doing some thinking outloud. Based on my experience with the 45 Colt, 45 ACP (in sixguns) 45 Auto Rim and now the 45 Special, I was wondering if the superiority of the Schofield case over the 45 Special case was more theory than reality. But the bottom line is that it does not matter if it is or is not. A project is a project and a brain child is a brain child and happiness is the goal.

I am going to keep my 45 Colt, 45 Auto Rim and 45 Special loads in the 800 to 850 fps range. If I want to sling lead faster than that, I have several 44 Magnums to fall back on. So all of this is just theory for me anyway.

[DougGuy]

I hear ya Char-Gar.. I am finding out that freebore doesn't seem to matter much at all as long as it is boolit diameter or very slightly above. If it is close to boolit diameter, it holds the boolit in pretty straight flight and allows it to hit rifling evenly. To this end properly reamed/sized throats in a revolver cylinder seem to help greatly, and some of the 1911 barrels I have throated shoot lights out with no leading, with .200" or more of freebore in front of the end of the chamber. It needs to be of a diameter close to boolit size, and transition smoothly into the rifling and there won't be any noticeable issues with accuracy, leading, or any documentable loss of velocity. It is my contention that some barrels will shoot better with longer than .060" of freebore. If the opposite were true, then convertible revolvers would shoot terribly but this is not the case.

[Catshooter]

On the GrayBeards site, in the Handi Rifle section you'll find a ton of guys who get great accuracy with their 357 Maximum rifles using 38 Special loads. That's a looooooooong jump and they work great.


Cat

[35remington]

Given that a 45 ACP is Plus P and presumably near 21,000-23,000 psi when moving a 230 at 950, one can only surmise that pushing a heavier, more deeply seated 452423 at 1200 fps with 2400 is way higher pressure than that in the identically capacious Auto Rim case. I don't intend going there.....ever, in a Smith chambered for Auto Rim, no matter how new it is or what John Taffin says. That's a bit nuts IMO, sorry. Way, way past Plus P and the pressures the revolvers were rated for.

[Snow ninja]

Interesting idea, may have to look into that for my Ruger. Interested to see what kind of performance I can get.

[Char-Gar]

Given that a 45 ACP is Plus P and presumably near 21,000-23,000 psi when moving a 230 at 950, one can only surmise that pushing a heavier, more deeply seated 452423 at 1200 fps with 2400 is way higher pressure than that in the identically capacious Auto Rim case. I don't intend going there.....ever, in a Smith chambered for Auto Rim, no matter how new it is or what John Taffin says. That's a bit nuts IMO, sorry. Way, way past Plus P and the pressures the revolvers were rated for.

Well, I agree and disagee. The SAAMI upper pressure limit for the 45 ACP is 21,000 psi. I have never known of a 230 grain factory load that will break 900 fps. Most run 850 +- 25 fps. The last time I ran some USGI 230 grain ball (WCC 67) over a chrony, it went through the screens at 800 fps.

99.99% of my loads for the 45 ACP, Auto Rim or 45 Special run between 800 and 850 fps, regardless of the bullet. When 452423 is loaded in the AR or Special case, it is crimped in the groove provided and is not that much deep seated. Seat the bullet to the edge of the shoulder for the autopistol and it does encroach on the air space in the case.

My standard load for any of the short 45 cases is 4.5 grains of Bulleye. This keeps me in my target area of velocity quite well.

Now about the speedy Taffin loads with 2400. A few years back Glen Fryxell picked up a hollow point version of 452423 and knowing my fondness for the bullet, he cast up a hundred and sent them to me. I loaded them in Auto Rim cases (crimped in the groove) over 13.7/2400 (Aliant). This was not the top load listed by Taffin. Alloy was 1-20, I sized them .454 for my 25-2 and the bullets weighted 233 grains. I tested these bullets for expansion and they did indeed expand very well. There was no pressure signs of any kind in my revolver and I still have over half of them left. Every once in a while, I keep the 4" 25-2 on the nightstand loaded with these. I pity the poor fellow that takes one or more of these center mass.

Should I need any more of these 452423 HPs, I had Buckshot hollow point my old single cavity mold.

Are these loads over SAAMI pressure? Certainly they are. Will, they damage my 25-2 gun over time? I doubt, but don't preclude the possibility. Is this nuts? Not hardly, a good Ruger single action handgun should digest these without a bobble for a very long time.

At any rate, the discussion was about sending 250 - 300 grain bullets out of a 45 Schofield case at 1,100 fps. Any load that will do this is above SAAMI 45 ACP (21,00 psi) and 45 Colt (14,000 psi). Also remember SAAMI lists 45 Colt (Ruger) loads at 25,000. I don't believe Doug Guy's goals are risky in any way, although I would prefer the larger Ruger New Model when dealing with the unknown. That extra steel would be a comfort to me, even if not needed.

Also bear in mind that when Dave Andrews was running the Speer ballistic lab, he did extensive load testing on the 45 Auto Rim case using cast SWC bullets at 2400 (Hercules) powder. With a 240 grain SWC bullet, this is how it shakes down from a 6.5" Smith 1955 Target Model.

15.0 - 1192 fs
14.0 - 1087 fs
13.0 - 1006 fs

These loads were all pressure tested in the Speer lab. They were over SAAMI, so when liability became an issue and the Risk Managers came in, Speer and others stop publishing such data. Somewhere in my files I have the pressure data on these loads and my memory tells me the loads topped out at around 23,000. So John Taffin was not running in untested waters, but had ballistic lab data to back him up.

I do not have a hot rod mentality, preferring to color within the lines. But there are times and circumstances with certain firearms where an experienced and knowledgeable reloader can push the red line wit safety. However all to often, it is the inexperienced and unknowledgeable who do it. Then is when it can be "nuts" or even worse.

[35remington]

Don't have as much trouble with a Blackhawk and that may take some of the "nuts" out of it especially if you could seat the bullets out further. But....no matter how you slice it, that's generously far enough past Plus P ballistics that some threshold has been passed for a Smith in my opinion.

Not contesting what most standard factory ball does....just what Plus P will do in a 45 ACP. It's close to what I stated. My copy of the 452438 seats to about .320" depth or noticeably more than 230 ball does.

I'm not a newcomer to loading 2400 under a 240 or 255 grain SWC in the Auto Rim. Done it plenty of times. 975-1000 fps suits me as that gives me some equivalent to the standard 45 Colt, in a much smaller case, and I'm aware I'm in extra pressure waters even at that velocity given the capacity disparity. Something's gotta be "giving" when we're 200 fps past that, and I'm not all that sure we're in the 23,000 psi range any more. Wonder what a piezo barrel would show as opposed to what Andrews may have been using if he was using something else?

When I total up what I know for sure, then go well past that, the uneasy feeling is merited, in my opinion.

Figure this is my sidebar on the Auto Rim. Didn't want to get involved with anything to do with the Schofield case as I have no experience with it. I just don't figure that 1200 is prudent for Smiths, even my newer one. That's just too much (1200) of a facsimile of what larger cases will do at pressures that are known to be over SAAMI as well. For a 44 Special's bigger case to equal that with equal weight bullets is in fairly high pressure ranges as well....certainly way past its ordinary low SAAMI limit. Shrink the case to 45 Auto Rim size and, well, my opinion comes forth on the issue.

[DougGuy]

Afaik, SAAMI for .45 ACP +P is 23,000psi. This is what the medium framed Rugers are rated to. This is the pressure ceiling I would observe in my Schofield project. I'm pretty sure I can get a decent shooting load within this pressure ceiling in Schofield 1.100" brass, whether I can get it to 1175f/s and stay within 23,000 is probably doable with some powders and boolits, maybe not doable with others. I figure the more weight I go over 255gr, the less combinations of powder/boolit will be workable before it starts to exceed 23,000psi.

[35remington]

Brian Pearce listed some 1200 fps load in the 44 Special case, and as I recall they were in the 22,000 psi vicinity. Since the Schofield is much closer to 44 Special size, as long as things are not run too energetically close to DG's hopes in velocity are probably doable.

The 45 Auto Rim really has no chance to stay within Plus P specs of 23,000 psi with a 452438 at 1200 fps in my opinion. That's a much smaller case, and given a 44 Special strains to get there at approximately that pressure an Auto Rim generating those speeds has to be quite well above that.

[blue45colt]

In regards to projects involving 45 Colt I've though for a long time that an old model Ruger 357 converted to 45 Schofield would be close to ideal...mid frame, large caliber loaded to ~ 950/1000 fps...have an old flattop that may just end up that way.
Anyone have or seen such an animal?

[Nueces]

In regards to projects involving 45 Colt I've though for a long time that an old model Ruger 357 converted to 45 Schofield would be close to ideal...mid frame, large caliber loaded to ~ 950/1000 fps...have an old flattop that may just end up that way.
Anyone have or seen such an animal?

That very thing has been one of my oldest ideas for a project. My version was to be a Ruger Flat Top, chambered in 45 S&W, with a 4" barrel and steel grip frame. A real gentleman's personal revolver.

We now have that very thing in Ruger's new Flat Top convertible 45 Colt and 45 ACP. Mine will accept the Cowboy 45 Special case in the ACP chamber. As another member has posted elsewhere, that cylinder could easily be taken out to 45 S&W or the Schofield case could be loaded into the Colt cylinder.

These be the good old days.

[Char-Gar]

That very thing has been one of my oldest ideas for a project. My version was to be a Ruger Flat Top, chambered in 45 S&W, with a 4" barrel and steel grip frame. A real gentleman's personal revolver.

We now have that very thing in Ruger's new Flat Top convertible 45 Colt and 45 ACP. Mine will accept the Cowboy 45 Special case in the ACP chamber. As another member has posted elsewhere, that cylinder could easily be taken out to 45 S&W or the Schofield case could be loaded into the Colt cylinder.

These be the good old days.

Yes, the Flattop 45 convertible is almost the same as the fellow wants, without all the gunsmithing bills. The 45 Special case in the 45 ACP cylinder with smokeless powder will easily beat the original Schofield black powder loads by 100 to 200 fps depending on how much and what kind of smokeless powder.

My enthusiasm for Lipsey's 45 Flattop is boundless even after a year with the handgun. I did install a SBH hammer to help with my arthritic thumb and added some juicy Texas honey mesquite grips. Other than that it is box stock.

[9.3X62AL]

I read Ed's article in the Fouling Shot, which I don't believe is available online.

Ed Harris and Glen Fryxell are two guys whose opinions I hold in high regard. If they held an opinion contrary to mine, that would cause me to back up and rethink my own opinion. It might not change, but I would most certainly question it and give the whole issue a through going over. Lucky for me, that doesn't happen often. I do so hate being wrong and having to change my opinion. :-)

What Char-Gar says right here. And folks would do well to pay attention to what Char-Gar himself puts up, as well.

[Nueces]

My own Lipsey's convertible is awaiting installation of the Shotgun Boogie short action conversion. This replaces the entire guts, leaving one with a lowered Bisley type hammer spur, a trigger that rests at the back of the guard and no transfer bar. There is a half cock function, so the revolver functions and handles just like a Colt. Plus, it's slicker than snot, even with full spring pressure. I have some tendon damage to the right hand and can still slap the hammer back by hardly more than thinking about it.

Charles, please sir, are you able to let on how a fellow Texan can get fitted for Guayacan or mesquite grips?

[Char-Gar]

My own Lipsey's convertible is awaiting installation of the Shotgun Boogie short action conversion. This replaces the entire guts, leaving one with a lowered Bisley type hammer spur, a trigger that rests at the back of the guard and no transfer bar. There is a half cock function, so the revolver functions and handles just like a Colt. Plus, it's slicker than snot, even with full spring pressure. I have some tendon damage to the right hand and can still slap the hammer back by hardly more than thinking about it.

Charles, please sir, are you able to let on how a fellow Texan can get fitted for Guayacan or mesquite grips?


craig Cary made those grips. CLC Custom Grips , he has a web site.

[Nueces]

Thank you, Sir!

[DougGuy]

The Rat Ruger that Shotgun Boogie built is EXACTLY the kind of finish I would like for my .45 Schofield conversion except I want to do it on a case color Vaquero, with the worn blue and nicks here and there and the stained old patina look. I have a set of original '53 - '58 factory ivories with medallions that I would like to find a home on it. Funny, I was looking in gun shops in Florida this past week, looking for a used Vaquero with a lot of wear, I was almost "seeing" this exact gun in my mind's eye and now this photo turns up.

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Cylinder%20Services/ShotgunBoogieRatRuger_zps01c5efc2.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Cylinder%20Services/ShotgunBoogieRatRuger_zps01c5efc2.jpg.html)

[WALLNUTT]

DougGuy Will you be doing any 45 Schofield chambering work for others?

[GLL]

Has anyone been in contact with the new sellers of 45 Special Cowboy brass to confirm its current availability?
Their website is "Under Construction".
I would like to try a couple hundred.

Jerry

[white eagle]

I was going to mention the 45 cowboy special
I have some brass fun to have and shoot

[DougGuy]

DougGuy Will you be doing any 45 Schofield chambering work for others?

Most likely I will do this on .45 ACP cylinders. I want to do one myself and see how well it works out but if someone wants to send a cylinder before I find a donor Vaquero, I would likely take it on.

[WALLNUTT]

Would 45acp dies work for loading ammunition? I assume the Schofield charge hole tapers into the throat like other rimmed revolver cartridges? I don't care for the ledge for case mouth headspacing, it doesn't seem conducive to accuracy. Would any other modifications be needed for a Vaquero 45acp cylinder?

[BAGTIC]

I have been using the .45 Special brass for a couple years. They work fine in my Taurus Tracker M455 Double Action .45 ACP. I have been loading to +P 23,000 psi limits. I have never chronographed the loads but according to various sources they should be in the 900-950 fps range with a 230 grain lead bullet which is all I need. I like to keep the muzzle pressure down to minimize noise.

[257X50]

In regards to projects involving 45 Colt I've though for a long time that an old model Ruger 357 converted to 45 Schofield would be close to ideal...mid frame, large caliber loaded to ~ 950/1000 fps...have an old flattop that may just end up that way.
Anyone have or seen such an animal?
I rechambered a NM 357 cylinder to 45 colt
turned the OD to just fit the window.
So Over sized cylinder.
Schofield would have been a great choice.

[Char-Gar]

Would 45acp dies work for loading ammunition? I assume the Schofield charge hole tapers into the throat like other rimmed revolver cartridges? I don't care for the ledge for case mouth headspacing, it doesn't seem conducive to accuracy. Would any other modifications be needed for a Vaquero 45acp cylinder?

yes, 45 ACP dies are what is used. The headspace ledge is not a problem, but I lap the burrs of the inside edge using a 30-06 case as a lap.

[WALLNUTT]

How much do you lap the edges? Do you find the 45Spl brass to be more accurate than ACP cases?

[GLL]

AC Ammo just responded to my email about the .45 Cowboy Special brass and updated their website.
Brass will be shipped to them by Starline in May.

www.ACAmmo.com (https://exchange.pasadena.edu/OWA/redir.aspx?C=788e0b7e7fd14b09b00dced2dd4277d9&URL=http%3a%2f%2fwww.ACAmmo.com)

Jerry

[DougGuy]

Would 45acp dies work for loading ammunition? I assume the Schofield charge hole tapers into the throat like other rimmed revolver cartridges? I don't care for the ledge for case mouth headspacing, it doesn't seem conducive to accuracy. Would any other modifications be needed for a Vaquero 45acp cylinder?

They probably would work, I got some Schofield dies in the S&S a couple weeks ago so I'm covered there. The other concern I have with doing the Schofield conversion on a NMV would be making sure the rim on the case would fit without too much trouble. The rim on the .45 Colt case is .512" the Schofield is .520" and some cylinders need the boss of the ratchet star machined between teeth so the case rim would seat fully. Also, with the smaller NMV cylinder, I would want to make sure all 6 charge holes could be loaded without the rims interfering with each other. I don't have a NM cylinder here to check out right now, the next NM .45 ACP cylinder I get in for throating, I will cut off some Schofield brass and verify that the Schofield brass will indeed fit in the cylinder.

I had originally wanted to do this conversion using shortened .45 Colt brass, cut to 1.160" same as a .44 Special, I was going to call it the .45 Ruger Special since it is intended to be loaded to 23,000psi you wouldn't want to shoot these in an old Colt or S&W. We will see...