Let's talk .38 S&W

[wrench]

Yesterday my LGS had a pretty little S&W Terrier in .38S&W. Postwar, maybe 1950?? Bore and chambers are clean as a whistle, so it's begging to be shot.
I picked up some Lee dies at the same time, and I'm looking for some brass.
What I'm really interested in, is which bullets are you folks using in this caliber? Size?
Here's a pic of her:-)

[Vulcan Bob]

Oh yeah, I like that, nice snag! Brass can be had at Starline but you might have to wait. In my 33-1 I'm using the RCBS-38-150-KT that drops at 155gr with my alloy and a Ideal 358311 RN that drops at 166 gr. I size each at .360" and have good results with them in my M-33.

[Char-Gar]

This is one caliber where you really need to know the size of the charge hole throats, as they are usually several thousands larger than the 38 Special. The only pistol I have in that caliber is an old Royal Singapore Police Webley MkIV. I load a clone of the old British service load with a 200 grain .361 bullet over 2.2 grains of Bulleye. You need to do a little research and find out what load these Smiths were intended for and try and duplicate that as close as possible.

[pworley1]

Very nice. All my 38 S&Ws like the Lyman 358212 over 3g of unique. Happy shooting.

[MakeMineA10mm]

I like the Lyman 358480 for this caliber.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=50513&d=1246942186

[9.3X62AL]

I have a 1920-built Colt Police Positive x 4" that is similar in strength and dimension to your Terrier. My Colt's throats are .359", grooves .358". Don't surprised if your S&W throats and grooves run .002"-.003" wider than that; I have a S&W M&P Lend-Lease 38/200 whose throats are .363".

I use Lyman #358477 (150 grain SWC) atop 3.0 grains of Unique, as given in the RCBS Cast Bullet Manual #1 (1986). These run about 700-725 FPS, and shoot right to the sights at 25 yards. Starline brass is best of breed, and the several brass makes will vary in thickness. MAKE SURE your expander spud is of a size that will open case mouths enough to seat bullets without reducing their diameter. The RCBS Cowboy Die Set in 38 S&W caliber has 2 expander rods & spuds, marked 358" and .360". You may need a 9mm Makarov expander spud if your throats and bullets run to the wide side of the ledger.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I am pretty sure S&W will have got the relationship of groove and cylinder throat diameters right. But they are likely to be .360in. or more. While a mould of the right diameter is best, there is every chance that bullets from a .357 or .358 mould will work well, provided that they are soft enough to upset, and that the case grips the bullet with adequate tightness. Recoil in this small revolver won't be very light, and bullets setting forward through inertia may foul the rear of the barrel. Even if it is really just a hobby nowadays, it would be a pity to let a basically defensive revolver keep doing that.

[Guesser]

Both of my S&W bores run to .360- I cast 360246 and 360271 sized to .360, that's the largest I had, and it works. I cast very soft, lead and just enough tin to fill. Very accurate and pleasant to shoot. My Colt is a little tighter but the same loads work just as well.

[photomicftn]

I picked up a very similar snub Terrier that letters to 1952, and still has the half moon front sight.

I recommend you try some commercial hollow base .38 wadcutters seated out a bit once you find some brass. They're very soft and right about the correct weight for the caliber (.38/200 excepted).

If you want something different, go to www.mountainmolds.com (http://www.mountainmolds.com) and try inputting your own parameters to make a custom bullet mold. You can specify the diameter to suit your alloy. I used the following dimensions to order a mold for this revolver. I will use it to cast soft lead bullets, which have some shrinkage over wheel weights, and bought a .360 sizer to go with it.

Mountain Molds .38 S&W 150gr

Original Keith Style SWC

Bullet Diameter: .363"
Bullet Weight: 150gr from Wheel Weights
Bullet Nose: .330"
Front Band: .080"
Crimp Groove: .070"
Meplat: 75%

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

Lyman 360344 over 7625. Loaded some for a friend who uses them on armadillos. Says they work far better than RN. I found the recipe in an older Lyman manual.

[JWFilips]

My wife has a S&W 1950 terrier also & loves it. I beagled a lee 158 SWC to drop .361" works well
Commercially a great choice is From Matt's Bullets
http://www.mattsbullets.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=72&products_id=205
I get the .363" Seems to like the fat boolits

[Bigslug]

This is one caliber where you really need to know the size of the charge hole throats, as they are usually several thousands larger than the 38 Special. The only pistol I have in that caliber is an old Royal Singapore Police Webley MkIV. I load a clone of the old British service load with a 200 grain .361 bullet over 2.2 grains of Bulleye. You need to do a little research and find out what load these Smiths were intended for and try and duplicate that as close as possible.

+1 one to almost everything in that post, only British war production and 2.3 grains of Titegroup. You're going to have to measure the gun for best results because it's not unknown for the narrower .38 Special dimensions to sneak into the mix.

With the right alloy, my 358429 clone can throw fat enough boolits that I think I might try them someday for a "thumpier" option. The base-to-crimp distance is almost identical to my NOE 200 grainer, and the boolit OAL is only a tad shorter.

Starline has new brass in stock at the moment.

[Thin Man]

I was having problems getting group sizes to suit me from an Enfield when throwing .358 boolits and tracked the issue to small boolit diameter. From my frugal (cheap) disposition I could not justify buying a custom mold for one single project, even if it opened the doors to future project firearms. I bought a Lyman tong tool listed on ebay (yeah, my bad) built for the 38 S&W cartridge and found it casts boolits at .363", weight 150 grains sporting the traditional long round nose. So long as this was a dedicated application mold I wanted to reproduce the original appearance of the loaded ammo. I have loaded these both unsized .363" (hand lubed) and sized/lubed .361" and fired the tightest groups at .361". Alloy was ACWW, gentle charge of Bullseye. I suspect a Beagle process with your favorite 358 diameter mold should create similar results, again to reduce costs.
Good luck with your project.

Thin Man

[9.3X62AL]

My initial efforts in 38 S&W were for a Webley-Enfield, and I Beagled a Lyman #358430 in WW metal for my first attempts. These came out about .3615"-.362" IIRC, and shot OK. OK = in the general vicinity of a B-27 10-ring at 25 yards, distributed around same radially about 3"-3.5". OK, minute-of-Nazi is adequate.

Unable to leave well enough alone, I ordered and received an NEI #169A two-cavity mould, which duplicates the Mk I 200 grain bullet profile and weight. This came after some samples from a member here improved outcomes from what the Lyman mod produced. In WW metal, these fell out at .364"+, and cleaned up in a Lyman H&I die marked .363" at true diameter. Same 3.0 grains of Unique loading with this bullet shrunk down grouping to 4"-4.5" at 25 yards, still centered about the 10-ring. That a' do. Along came a S&W M&P x 5", a Lend-Lease return......and it can run these about 3" if I do my part at 25 yards. All of this above was off-hand/double-action, the manner in which these wheelguns were meant to be fired. The curious thing about both the fattened #358430 and the NEI #169A......the bullets are longer than the cases into which they are seated.
The little Colt has become my Kit Gun From Hell. I adapted a set of Pachmayr Presentation stocks for the D-frame Colts to fit its First Series buttframe; those OEM hard black rubber stocks do not fit my hand--at all. The Pachs seem to be best-suited to 2nd Series frames (postwar to 1969). Once usable with the Pachs, the little roller has gone along for jackrabbits that seem to know how far a quail gun's pattern can reach.....but who missed the briefing on revolver ranging. To 75 yards so far, the rather sedate #358477s dispatch the varmints decisively with center-mass hits. I'm not about to eat one of those bug-infested vermin, but cottontails taken in this fashion from an area lacking tularemia would be harvested humanely and without much damage to the hasenpfeffer. Just right, really.

[Salmoneye]

I have slugged .38 S&W from .355" to .360"...

Old Lyman manual I have (#44) specifies bullets from .354"-.360"...

I personally load 158gr .358" truncated cone over 2.2gr Red Dot for my Albion made Enfield...

[Leslie Sapp]

I haven't slugged this one yet, but none of the local armadillos have complained after being whacked with a Lyman 358477 sized at .358 from it.127750:-)

I do have a 1926 vintage colt that slugs at .3545, so slugging is advised.

I've got a Lyman 358480 that was acquired for just this round, but haven't had a chance to cast with it yet.

[photomicftn]

Here are a couple of handy links I've come across regarding the .38 S&W:

http://www.coltforum.com/forums/reloading-range-reports/65169-cartridge-discussion-38-s-w-ghost-bygone-times.html
http://www.reloadammo.com/38sw.htm
http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/reloads/59729-38spl-lhbwc-loaded-backwards.html

[wrench]

Thanks, guys. I appreciate the info and links. I've got a few choices for molds around, so as soon as I get some brass I am in business.

[Joni Lynn]

Nice looking S&W! Congrats.

[Love Life]

It is a fun round for sure. Easy on the powder and the ladies love it.

[Clark]

A) In an Iver Johnson break top 38 S&W I like to use:
Lyman #35864 150 gr with 2 gr Unique.
I want a large diameter, soft Lead, low recoil, low pressure load.

http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/yhst-15321267663876_2271_6433328
http://www.westernbullet.com/ly3150gr.html

B) In a Colt Police Positive in 38 S&W, I use 9mm loads, and often 9mm jacketed bullets.
I want a high pressure, high recoil load.

[9.3X62AL]

Oh, Clark--my favorite extender of firearm capabilities. My Police Positive example is too nice to blow up, what kind of velocities are you imparting to what weights of bullets? My current sedate recipe uses #358477 atop 3.0 grains of Unique in Starline brass with CCI 500 caps. These go 700-725 FPS and hit right where the sights look at 25 yards. These tip over small game and varmints quite well, and would give some pause to goblins if placed right.

[Clark]

This 20 ounce 38sw Colt was made in 1911.
I have been shooting 158 gr LSWC 4 gr Unique [4.5 gr is obnoxious].
Also 4.8 gr Power Pistol 115 gr JHP
129321

[John Allen]

Yesterday my LGS had a pretty little S&W Terrier in .38S&W. Postwar, maybe 1950?? Bore and chambers are clean as a whistle, so it's begging to be shot.
I picked up some Lee dies at the same time, and I'm looking for some brass.
What I'm really interested in, is which bullets are you folks using in this caliber? Size?
Here's a pic of her:-)


I love the odd stuff. The shops around here never seem to get stuff like this.

[bob208]

I have a 5" victory model. I use 358429 sized .360. it shoots close to the sights. i use data for the 200 gr. bullets. the groundhogs I have used it on have never run away.

[wrench]

I love the odd stuff. The shops around here never seem to get stuff like this.

LOL, I was standing at the counter when the guy brought it in, saw the red box and kept my eyes on it like a hawk. The shop bought it from the guy, the owner of the shop knows me quite well;), so he knew why I was hanging around. After the guy left, he just put his fingers up with the price, I nodded, and left with it a few minutes later.

I've got my brass, and loaded up a few rounds with the Lee 158rnfp, over 3g of Unique. Hopefully will get this to the range this weekend...

[Green Frog]

Wrench, you've found a gun I looked long and hard for! I finally settled on the same gun in a pre-War example, but would have still preferred the one you got from a purely pragmatic shooting standpoint. I'm glad you opened this discussion as I now have a couple of hundred rounds of once fired brass and a set of Lyman dies in the small (310/Tru Line Jr) size to load it with. I'm trying to find one of my existing bullets to load it if possible so I don't have to buy another mould (heaven forbid) and push comes to shove I can just use my old S&W "Peanut Handle" mould to make some old-school round nose bullets for it.

Regards,
Froggie

[35remington]

.362-3" is correct as to diameter.

[Joni Lynn]

9mm Makarov bullets are .365 if I remember correctly, perhaps cast lead bullets for those would work.

[35remington]

There are sponsors such as NOE here that offer moulds of the correct weight and diameter. Besides being oversized a mould for a Mak would not hit to the sights, as it is underweight.

[ddixie884]

Good info.............

[9.3X62AL]

35 Rem, 9mm Makarov die sets have their place in the 38 S&W scheme of things. Their tungsten-carbide sizer dies are usable on 38 S&W cases, being within .001" of the same diameter. For those of us with wider-throated revolver examples, the Makarov expander spuds mic about .361", making them well-nigh perfect for fat 38 S&Ws.......though well-nigh useless for Makarov castings. We have Buckshot for that.

I can't tell you how useful and practical my little Colt PP x 4" is in 38 S&W. It has impressed me with its varmint-smacking abilities to 75 yards; it may go along on this year's varmint strafing expeditions for shorter work. It serves to remind me how much I miss having a 32 S&W Long of this same configuration (small frame and 4" barrel) for this same venue. These 38s and 32s are such better harvesters than are 22 LR of the same pattern that it is hard to understand how these little guns fell from favor with outdoors people.

[35remington]

No doubt Makarov die sets have their use for the 38, but I was limiting my comments to the lightweight Makarov bullets and their suitability as substitutes for standard 38 S&W bullets

[MtGun44]

With the Lyman 360271 sized to .360 my Police Positive will put 4 of 5 right at an inch at 25 yds,
but I almost always pull one out to 2". A bit high and right at that range, but generally it would
be a head shot on a rabbit if you hold right. 3.2 gr Unique or 2.0 Titegroup work about equally
well. I had to shim out end play and stretch the hand on mine, there is a thread in gunsmithing
on the tooling I made to make shims. Cute little guns, mine is a 5". These were shot sitting
with wrists between knees.

Eyes are starting to make this sort of work a bit less likely, but I have the photos, and
the gun could still do it, even if I may not be able to.

Bill

[Sgt Petro]

My Webley runs on the larger size .363+. But a whole lot of fun to shot and cast for.

[Forrest r]

I don't use/shoot the 38s&w's but I ended up with 2 different hb molds designed for the 38s&w. These hb bullets are extremely accurate in lite 38spl loads.

Lyman 35870 147g hb fn's that cast out @ .360 with range scrap.

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/35870hbs_zps5a05e10c.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/35870hbs_zps5a05e10c.jpg.html)

Raphine 150g hb fn bullets that cast out @ .361 with range scrap

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t242/forrestr-photo/38splhbfn_zpsd4d597cb.jpg (http://s162.photobucket.com/user/forrestr-photo/media/38splhbfn_zpsd4d597cb.jpg.html)

[MtGun44]

Boy, those red boolits are WEIRD!

Bill

[9.3X62AL]

Boy, those red boolits are WEIRD!

Bill

I don't "get" them either......but I also don't tumble-lube. I want my innovations in smaller helpings, I suppose.