nitro-express
01-16-2015, 01:02 PM
I recently resurrected a Tru-Line Jr press, and now I am collecting dies for it. I'm finding dies specific to the T-L Jr., and generic 310 dies. The letters and numbers stamped on the dies changed over time, as has the names for the various dies. It has been an interesting project.
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg25/nitro-express/Lyman%20Tru-Line%20Jr/T-LjrSetUp_zpsd6159e76.jpg (http://s244.photobucket.com/user/nitro-express/media/Lyman%20Tru-Line%20Jr/T-LjrSetUp_zpsd6159e76.jpg.html)
In some of the sets I have, EC die bodies are stamped with a KF, (-20 and -23). Research tells me there was also a KF-29, (the forum listed it as being for 38-55), I don't have a KF-29. Perhaps there are other "KF" dies. I was unable to find neither much information on the KF; none on what the letters "KF" mean or stand for, nor the rational for the numbers "20", "23" and "29". My best guess is that The "K" is for Kilbourn, Lysle Kilbourn, the K in K-Hornet, was an employee with Lyman during the Tru-Line Jr era. The "F" refers to the "F" or the Expanding Chamber of the Tru-Line Jr die set. I have no providence to support this weak conjecture, other than the two pictures below.
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg25/nitro-express/LymanKilbourn_zpse90d35c0.jpg (http://s244.photobucket.com/user/nitro-express/media/LymanKilbourn_zpse90d35c0.jpg.html)
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg25/nitro-express/T-LJrKdie_zpsb2d8792a.jpg (http://s244.photobucket.com/user/nitro-express/media/T-LJrKdie_zpsb2d8792a.jpg.html)
I'll attempt to be consistent with the names for the various dies and pieces. I used information from the Ideal Hand Book No. 38, circa 1951, for the following glossary:
• PC Priming Chamber (for 310 tool only)
• SH Shell Holder (for Tru-Line Jr.)
• PP Priming Punch (for Tru-Line Jr.)
• DC Decapping Chamber (for 310 tool and Tru-Line Jr.) Die sets with MR dies came with a DC with either a large or small decapping rod depending on caliber. Some die sets came with a expanding plug to convert the DC to an EC, others came with a separate EC die. A DC and an EC (R-L) are identical.
• MR Muzzle Resizer (for 310 tool and Tru-Line Jr.) Later Lyman referred to this as a “Neck Resizing and Decapping” die. The cartridge neck was referred to as the “muzzle” originally.
• CMR Combination Muzzle Resizer or a “Neck Resizing and Decapping” die (for 310 tool and Tru-Line Jr.) All CMR dies came with a decapping rod. Later production CMR dies for the Tru-Line Jr. die sets came with an expanding button on the rod, just like Lyman 7/8 resizing dies. (All CMR dies for use with 310 handles came with a plain rod for decapping only; the 310 tool was not designed to expand the neck when opening the handles.)
• EC Expanding Chamber or “Neck Expanding” die (for 310 tool and Tru-Line Jr.)
• EP Expanding Plug (for 310 tool and Tru-Line Jr.)
• DA Double Adjusting chamber or “Bullet Seating” die. (for 310 tool and Tru-Line Jr.) (Seating and Crimping)
• SS Seating Screw or (bullet seating screw) for the DA chamber. The seating screw should match the point of the bullet. Give number of cast bullet, or shape of jacketed bullet when ordering.
What I have determined is that they are used as E.C. or "Expanding Chambers" in 310 speak, and that Lyman makes a 7/8 version of this die, and refers to it as a "Neck Expanding M Die".
Externally, the KF-23 I have looks identical to a R-S expanding chamber, (Rifle-Short) ***
Externally, the KF-20 I have looks identical to a R-M expanding chamber, (Rifle-Medium) ***
And I'm assuming that the KF-29 is the same as a R-L (2.5” long, threaded for 1.35”) expanding chamber, (Rifle-Long) ***
“The KF-29 die (which most likely, as you surmise, corresponds to the R-L die) has a body length of 2.483". The two I have came as part of 310 die sets for .30-06 and .45-70.” jrmartin1964
“Additionally, I have (as part of a 310 die set for .45 Colt) a KF-21 die (corresponding to the P-S die), which has a body length of 1.573".” jrmartin1964
Besides length, EC dies use two different diameter threads for the expanding plugs. For the large calibers, the thread size on the expanding plug increases to 15/32-30 from the lesser caliber size of 13/32-30. The smallest expanding plug I have is 223, it has 13/32-30 thread, and the largest expanding plug I have with 13/32-30 thread is 313. The next larger caliber expanding plug I have is 358 and it has the larger 15/32-30 thread.
Lyman 310 dies and the use of 30 tpi threads makes me wonder if their screw machine only had one setting.
The external diameters of the two expanding plugs are 0.394” and 0.455”. It is rather unlikely that these threads were metric, even though 394 is 10mm, therefore I’ll assume they are fractional and since the closest, larger fractions are 13/32 (0.40625) and 15/32 (0.46875), I will refer to the two thread sizes as 13/32-30 TPI and 15/32-30 TPI.
In order to be scientific, I would need a larger sample size, or Lyman would have to be forthcoming with specifications. Being as Lyman made changes upon changes that may only confuse things further. RCBS at least stamps the production year on their dies, Lyman has some dies with nothing at all stamped on them.
So for my two KF die sample, this is what the general specifications are:
The KF-23 I have is 1.563” long, is threaded, 5/8-30 for 1.08” of the die body and the thread for the expanding plug is 15/32-30.
The KF-20 I have is 2.123” long, is threaded, 5/8-30 for 1.47” of the die body and the thread for the expanding plug is 13/32-30.
*** I have a Excel spreadsheet, that I created from a list I found on the inter-web, that lists the various EC die bodies as being either:
• R-S for rifle short
• R-M for rifle medium
• R-L for rifle long
• P-S for pistol short
• or
• SPC (special) for rifle and pistol calibers requiring non-standard length EC die bodies.
Origin = http://ps-2.kev009.com/ohlandl/310/Ideal_310_Quick_Reference.html
In addition I've found that the expanding plugs for the EC dies, (and dies stamped KF), came in 2 slightly different configurations. One design looks the same as the current Lyman "M" dies' "neck expanding plug", and the other design has a button shaped plug for the first part of the expanding plug, instead of just being straight. The neck flaring portion looks the same.
This picture shows the difference between the two designs. It also shows the two different expanding plug thread sizes and the ribbed vs. knurled lock ring.
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg25/nitro-express/Lyman%20Tru-Line%20Jr/Mvs310_zps196fc0d4.jpg (http://s244.photobucket.com/user/nitro-express/media/Lyman%20Tru-Line%20Jr/Mvs310_zps196fc0d4.jpg.html)
As yet I haven't done a lot of reloading with my Tru-Line Jr. as I have other presses, but so far, I prefer the "M" design, (the plug on the right resembles the "M" design). Lyman does a better job of explaining the advantages of the "M" die, and I'll quote:
"Improves accuracy of cast and jacketed bullet reloads. Doesn't stretch cases as does standard expander button. Extends case life. A "Must-Have" die for the cast bullet or flat-base bullet user.
The first step expands the inside of the case neck to just under bullet diameter for precise case neck tension in the finished reload.
The second step expands the case mouth to bullet diameter or slightly over. This allows the jacketed or cast bullet to be started perfectly centered in the case mouth and properly aligned with the axis of the case neck.
Note: By adjusting the neck expanding plug slightly deeper, the second step also provides a slight flaring of the case mouth for reloaders using cast bullets."
I am not a 310 expert, and this post is the extent of my research on KF dies to date. I'd like to know if I missed anything, or if my explanations require further expounding; and I invite your replies.
I have a fairly representative collection of 310 (Tru-Line Jr.) dies and die sets to study. It contains samples of R-S, R-M, R-L, and KF-20, KF-23, and a few expanding chambers for pistol calibers.
I'll include this picture of the two KF dies I have, and a R-L along side of it. I do not have a KF-29 in my collection. From left to right they are KF-23, KF-20 and R-L.
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg25/nitro-express/Lyman%20Tru-Line%20Jr/KFdies_zps391a7b40.jpg (http://s244.photobucket.com/user/nitro-express/media/Lyman%20Tru-Line%20Jr/KFdies_zps391a7b40.jpg.html)
Here is the collection that my research is based on, and I thank the various posters on forums, whose information I utilized in this post.
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg25/nitro-express/Lyman%20Tru-Line%20Jr/IMG_20150112_181952_zpse91c13e3.jpg (http://s244.photobucket.com/user/nitro-express/media/Lyman%20Tru-Line%20Jr/IMG_20150112_181952_zpse91c13e3.jpg.html)
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg25/nitro-express/Lyman%20Tru-Line%20Jr/T-LjrSetUp_zpsd6159e76.jpg (http://s244.photobucket.com/user/nitro-express/media/Lyman%20Tru-Line%20Jr/T-LjrSetUp_zpsd6159e76.jpg.html)
In some of the sets I have, EC die bodies are stamped with a KF, (-20 and -23). Research tells me there was also a KF-29, (the forum listed it as being for 38-55), I don't have a KF-29. Perhaps there are other "KF" dies. I was unable to find neither much information on the KF; none on what the letters "KF" mean or stand for, nor the rational for the numbers "20", "23" and "29". My best guess is that The "K" is for Kilbourn, Lysle Kilbourn, the K in K-Hornet, was an employee with Lyman during the Tru-Line Jr era. The "F" refers to the "F" or the Expanding Chamber of the Tru-Line Jr die set. I have no providence to support this weak conjecture, other than the two pictures below.
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg25/nitro-express/LymanKilbourn_zpse90d35c0.jpg (http://s244.photobucket.com/user/nitro-express/media/LymanKilbourn_zpse90d35c0.jpg.html)
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg25/nitro-express/T-LJrKdie_zpsb2d8792a.jpg (http://s244.photobucket.com/user/nitro-express/media/T-LJrKdie_zpsb2d8792a.jpg.html)
I'll attempt to be consistent with the names for the various dies and pieces. I used information from the Ideal Hand Book No. 38, circa 1951, for the following glossary:
• PC Priming Chamber (for 310 tool only)
• SH Shell Holder (for Tru-Line Jr.)
• PP Priming Punch (for Tru-Line Jr.)
• DC Decapping Chamber (for 310 tool and Tru-Line Jr.) Die sets with MR dies came with a DC with either a large or small decapping rod depending on caliber. Some die sets came with a expanding plug to convert the DC to an EC, others came with a separate EC die. A DC and an EC (R-L) are identical.
• MR Muzzle Resizer (for 310 tool and Tru-Line Jr.) Later Lyman referred to this as a “Neck Resizing and Decapping” die. The cartridge neck was referred to as the “muzzle” originally.
• CMR Combination Muzzle Resizer or a “Neck Resizing and Decapping” die (for 310 tool and Tru-Line Jr.) All CMR dies came with a decapping rod. Later production CMR dies for the Tru-Line Jr. die sets came with an expanding button on the rod, just like Lyman 7/8 resizing dies. (All CMR dies for use with 310 handles came with a plain rod for decapping only; the 310 tool was not designed to expand the neck when opening the handles.)
• EC Expanding Chamber or “Neck Expanding” die (for 310 tool and Tru-Line Jr.)
• EP Expanding Plug (for 310 tool and Tru-Line Jr.)
• DA Double Adjusting chamber or “Bullet Seating” die. (for 310 tool and Tru-Line Jr.) (Seating and Crimping)
• SS Seating Screw or (bullet seating screw) for the DA chamber. The seating screw should match the point of the bullet. Give number of cast bullet, or shape of jacketed bullet when ordering.
What I have determined is that they are used as E.C. or "Expanding Chambers" in 310 speak, and that Lyman makes a 7/8 version of this die, and refers to it as a "Neck Expanding M Die".
Externally, the KF-23 I have looks identical to a R-S expanding chamber, (Rifle-Short) ***
Externally, the KF-20 I have looks identical to a R-M expanding chamber, (Rifle-Medium) ***
And I'm assuming that the KF-29 is the same as a R-L (2.5” long, threaded for 1.35”) expanding chamber, (Rifle-Long) ***
“The KF-29 die (which most likely, as you surmise, corresponds to the R-L die) has a body length of 2.483". The two I have came as part of 310 die sets for .30-06 and .45-70.” jrmartin1964
“Additionally, I have (as part of a 310 die set for .45 Colt) a KF-21 die (corresponding to the P-S die), which has a body length of 1.573".” jrmartin1964
Besides length, EC dies use two different diameter threads for the expanding plugs. For the large calibers, the thread size on the expanding plug increases to 15/32-30 from the lesser caliber size of 13/32-30. The smallest expanding plug I have is 223, it has 13/32-30 thread, and the largest expanding plug I have with 13/32-30 thread is 313. The next larger caliber expanding plug I have is 358 and it has the larger 15/32-30 thread.
Lyman 310 dies and the use of 30 tpi threads makes me wonder if their screw machine only had one setting.
The external diameters of the two expanding plugs are 0.394” and 0.455”. It is rather unlikely that these threads were metric, even though 394 is 10mm, therefore I’ll assume they are fractional and since the closest, larger fractions are 13/32 (0.40625) and 15/32 (0.46875), I will refer to the two thread sizes as 13/32-30 TPI and 15/32-30 TPI.
In order to be scientific, I would need a larger sample size, or Lyman would have to be forthcoming with specifications. Being as Lyman made changes upon changes that may only confuse things further. RCBS at least stamps the production year on their dies, Lyman has some dies with nothing at all stamped on them.
So for my two KF die sample, this is what the general specifications are:
The KF-23 I have is 1.563” long, is threaded, 5/8-30 for 1.08” of the die body and the thread for the expanding plug is 15/32-30.
The KF-20 I have is 2.123” long, is threaded, 5/8-30 for 1.47” of the die body and the thread for the expanding plug is 13/32-30.
*** I have a Excel spreadsheet, that I created from a list I found on the inter-web, that lists the various EC die bodies as being either:
• R-S for rifle short
• R-M for rifle medium
• R-L for rifle long
• P-S for pistol short
• or
• SPC (special) for rifle and pistol calibers requiring non-standard length EC die bodies.
Origin = http://ps-2.kev009.com/ohlandl/310/Ideal_310_Quick_Reference.html
In addition I've found that the expanding plugs for the EC dies, (and dies stamped KF), came in 2 slightly different configurations. One design looks the same as the current Lyman "M" dies' "neck expanding plug", and the other design has a button shaped plug for the first part of the expanding plug, instead of just being straight. The neck flaring portion looks the same.
This picture shows the difference between the two designs. It also shows the two different expanding plug thread sizes and the ribbed vs. knurled lock ring.
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg25/nitro-express/Lyman%20Tru-Line%20Jr/Mvs310_zps196fc0d4.jpg (http://s244.photobucket.com/user/nitro-express/media/Lyman%20Tru-Line%20Jr/Mvs310_zps196fc0d4.jpg.html)
As yet I haven't done a lot of reloading with my Tru-Line Jr. as I have other presses, but so far, I prefer the "M" design, (the plug on the right resembles the "M" design). Lyman does a better job of explaining the advantages of the "M" die, and I'll quote:
"Improves accuracy of cast and jacketed bullet reloads. Doesn't stretch cases as does standard expander button. Extends case life. A "Must-Have" die for the cast bullet or flat-base bullet user.
The first step expands the inside of the case neck to just under bullet diameter for precise case neck tension in the finished reload.
The second step expands the case mouth to bullet diameter or slightly over. This allows the jacketed or cast bullet to be started perfectly centered in the case mouth and properly aligned with the axis of the case neck.
Note: By adjusting the neck expanding plug slightly deeper, the second step also provides a slight flaring of the case mouth for reloaders using cast bullets."
I am not a 310 expert, and this post is the extent of my research on KF dies to date. I'd like to know if I missed anything, or if my explanations require further expounding; and I invite your replies.
I have a fairly representative collection of 310 (Tru-Line Jr.) dies and die sets to study. It contains samples of R-S, R-M, R-L, and KF-20, KF-23, and a few expanding chambers for pistol calibers.
I'll include this picture of the two KF dies I have, and a R-L along side of it. I do not have a KF-29 in my collection. From left to right they are KF-23, KF-20 and R-L.
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg25/nitro-express/Lyman%20Tru-Line%20Jr/KFdies_zps391a7b40.jpg (http://s244.photobucket.com/user/nitro-express/media/Lyman%20Tru-Line%20Jr/KFdies_zps391a7b40.jpg.html)
Here is the collection that my research is based on, and I thank the various posters on forums, whose information I utilized in this post.
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/gg25/nitro-express/Lyman%20Tru-Line%20Jr/IMG_20150112_181952_zpse91c13e3.jpg (http://s244.photobucket.com/user/nitro-express/media/Lyman%20Tru-Line%20Jr/IMG_20150112_181952_zpse91c13e3.jpg.html)