243 wssm bullet question

[thadfz]

I'm shooting 35 gr. of H4895, 100 gr Hornady BTSP. My son hit a deer in the shoulder blade and the bullet exploded. Only a piece of schrapnel made it to the heart. Almost zero penetration. The shot was from 15 yards on the ground. Yes, we got the deer, but lost the whole front shoulder from bloodshot and damaged meat.

Was the bullet just going too fast to stay together? I expected better from this bullet. Am I expecting too much?

[jcren]

I load hornady and Sierra for a 243 and 06. Which hornady bullet are you using? I have good luck with the 100 grain sst at reduced 2400-2500 fps velocities in the 243. The 06 however blows the 150 grain sst to pieces with full power, so I use the Sierra gk 165 in it. Shot a big doe head on this year with the 06. Found the bullet lodged in her pelvic bone. Good enough for me.

[lefty o]

i doubt it was going too fast, the 243wssm is only like 10fps faster than a 6mm rem, and ive never heard anything about the 6rem being too fast for game bullets. i prefer in hornady bullets the sst/sst interbond, but heavy bone can be tough on alot of bullets. i dont like the shoulder shots at all, but especially in a lighter cal.

[kweidner]

If you are going to shoot shoulder with uber fast rounds, use Barnes Jwords. Never seen one fail to do the job. Course you might could kill the three standing behind them if they lined up just right. Just kidding. They do work as advertised IMHO. All I shot before my swaging days.

[thadfz]

Thanks for the replies guys.

100 gr BTSP interlock is the bullet.

I got the gun as a gift. I'd of rather had the plain Jane 243 instead, but I'm not complaining for free! I'm just trying to wrap my head around what went wrong so I hopefully don't do it again.

Obviously a more square broadside shot would be better, but you don't always get that. I've seen a lot of recommendations for the Nosler 95 gr BT. I was going to try that next. Any thoughts?

[Lloyd Smale]

I could see it with an sst but im surpised an interlock did that. Ive shot a lot of deer and know one thing. Sometimes &&& happens. I saw a 180 grain barnes x bullet fail on deer once and it was the first time I used that bullet in my 300 wby. Ive probably taken over a dozen more since them with that bullet and it allways performed like it was suppose to. Sometimes theres just a combination of velocity and angle and location of hit that just makes weird things happen. Id bet you could go out and shoot 10 more and find that bullet works just fine. As to the 95bt its another fine bullet that ive killed lots of deer with using my 6mm and a few with the 240 wby but its a thinner jacketed bullet then the interlock your using now and if anything is going to come apart faster.

[45coltnut]

thadfz,

I personally think the WSM and WSSM's are great cartridges. I've owned several and still have a couple. Would love to get the 25 WSM.

I typically shoot Nosler J bullets in them though. I had a 243 WSSM and used the 95 Nosler's. They worked great, although I never hit a shoulder. I wish I still had that gun! But, as another member stated, shoulders at the right angle and just in general can be hard on allot of bullets. I'm not sure about the jacket thickness of the BTSP by Hornady. I personally love the ballistic tips of both Nosler and Hornady. This past season I shot a nice mature buck with my new 270 WSM and a Hornady SST 130 grain. Shot was through the right should and existed behind the left. Buck went 40 yards....barely! 10 minutes later I took a mature doe through both shoulders and she was DRT. This was my fist experience with the SST but I like it allot so far.

So, if I was you, I would just try another bullet in the tipped variety. Call Hornady and ask them about the jacket thickness and optimum expansion / penetration for the 243 WSSM at or around 2800-2900 fps. They should be able to shed some light on it.

Again, I would keep the WSSM as it is a very effective and efficient cartridge. Just my 0.02 worth.

[DR Owl Creek]

I ordered a Winchester M70 Coyote in 243 WSSM when they first announce it, and received it in April, 2004. I also got 1,000 pieces of Winchester 243 WSSM brass in May, 2004. It's one of my favorite long range varmint rifles. I've never used typical "hunting" weight bullets in it though. My standard load is the Nosler 80gr Ballistic Tip Varmint bullet, with a near max charge of Hodgon Superformance powder. It delivers near bench rest accuracy at very high velocity.

I'm a little surprised about what happened with your Hornady InterLock bullet. I've had great results with the Hornady 150gr InterLock in a 270 WSM. I guess the 15 yard range for your shot is what made the difference.

The Hodgdon Annual Manual shows that for the 243 WSSM with the Speer 100gr BT-SP and H-4895 powder, the starting load would be 33.0gr, and the maximum load would be 35.5gr. Interpolating the data for that bullet indicates that 35.0gr should produce about 2919 fps velocity. Your load with the Hornady bullet may, or may not, be the same.

I've had very good results with Nosler bullets in mine, but I don't think I would recommend trying the Nosler Ballistic Tip for hunting for you. The Nosler #7 Manual shows data for the 100gr Partition, and I think this would be a much better choice. Nosler suggests that Alliant RL-15 powder was the most accurate powder they tested for this bullet. They show a starting load of 33.0gr, and a maximum load of 37.0gr, with 33.0gr being the most accurate, at 2796 fps. This should be a fairly mild load which should extend your brass life, and be easy on the barrel.

Another good choice would probably be the Barnes 85gr TSX-BT or TTSX-BT. The Barnes #4 Manual suggests IMR-4007 SSC as the most accurate powder, with a starting load of 40.0gr and a maximum load of 44.0gr, but doesn't make a specific recommendation on the load.

A third choice would be the Speer 100gr Grand Slam SP. The Speer #14 Manual lists powders with a burn rate with a range between H-414 on the fast side, to Ramshot Magnum on the slow side. I haven't tried any of these, so this is only an educated guess on my part.

If you haven't loaded for the 243 WSSM very much, it does have some quirks. The original complaints with the cartridge had to do with pressure spikes resulting in really sticky bolt lift, and the thick case necks resulting in the cartridge not sealing the chamber, which left sooty deposits on the case necks and some times back down the case itself. The 243 WSSM case is formed shortening and necking down 300 WSM brass, which is itself relatively heavy. This does leave the case necks very thick. My 243 WSSM cases, which were all from the same lot, weighed on average between 213gr to 214gr. The case necks ranged from as narrow (in spots) as .019" to as wide as .025", with the average case neck thickness of .020" to .022". To make the situation worse, I think, Winchester did a poor job annealing these cases because they were not only thick, but also hard and brittle. If you haven't annealed case necks before, I think this would be a good time to learn.

I think these thick, heavy case necks are responsible for the pressure spikes causing the sticky bolt lift, sooty case necks, and some times worse things. Measuring your case necks will be difficult unless you have a "ball" type case neck micrometer, or some other tool made specifically for the job. If you don't have one, you can get a good idea of what your case necks are like by trimming a number of cases to length, and then examining them under a good light with a magnifying glass. You can also get an approximate idea of the dimensions by using a regular caliper or micrometer, and measuring the case necks every 90 degrees.

My cases also had a very rough inside surface of the case necks, and almost resembled single-sided corrugated card board, with wrinkles everywhere. Simply running these cases back through a sizing die wouldn't smooth out these wrinkles, and if anything work-hardened the brass making the situation worse. This situation also can be improved by annealing your case necks before attempting to resize them.

The nominal dimensions of the 243 WSSM case neck at the mouth is .291". For comparison, the nominal case neck dimension for the 240 Weatherby Magnum is .271", and for the 6mm PPC is .262". Most "normal" brass has a case neck thickness of about .013". This also helps understand the situation.

Once you understand what's going on, and anneal your cases, loading for the 243 WSSM is relatively straight forward. Despite these quirks, it's still one of my favorite cartridges.

If you have any other questions, fire away!

Dave

[dk17hmr]

Dave that was great info.

I just load 55gr nbt's in my 243wssm with no real intent of hunting anything other then predators and varmints. The heaviest bullet I shot in mine was an 87gr HP but didnt care for it.

[Lloyd Smale]

have you experienced premature case neck splitting. I don't own a wssm but do load for my buddys son who has a 25wssm. he gave me two boxes of once fired ww nickel brass to load this year and after sizing I had 4 out of the 40 that had neck splits.
I ordered a Winchester M70 Coyote in 243 WSSM when they first announce it, and received it in April, 2004. I also got 1,000 pieces of Winchester 243 WSSM brass in May, 2004. It's one of my favorite long range varmint rifles. I've never used typical "hunting" weight bullets in it though. My standard load is the Nosler 80gr Ballistic Tip Varmint bullet, with a near max charge of Hodgon Superformance powder. It delivers near bench rest accuracy at very high velocity.

I'm a little surprised about what happened with your Hornady InterLock bullet. I've had great results with the Hornady 150gr InterLock in a 270 WSM. I guess the 15 yard range for your shot is what made the difference.

The Hodgdon Annual Manual shows that for the 243 WSSM with the Speer 100gr BT-SP and H-4895 powder, the starting load would be 33.0gr, and the maximum load would be 35.5gr. Interpolating the data for that bullet indicates that 35.0gr should produce about 2919 fps velocity. Your load with the Hornady bullet may, or may not, be the same.

I've had very good results with Nosler bullets in mine, but I don't think I would recommend trying the Nosler Ballistic Tip for hunting for you. The Nosler #7 Manual shows data for the 100gr Partition, and I think this would be a much better choice. Nosler suggests that Alliant RL-15 powder was the most accurate powder they tested for this bullet. They show a starting load of 33.0gr, and a maximum load of 37.0gr, with 33.0gr being the most accurate, at 2796 fps. This should be a fairly mild load which should extend your brass life, and be easy on the barrel.

Another good choice would probably be the Barnes 85gr TSX-BT or TTSX-BT. The Barnes #4 Manual suggests IMR-4007 SSC as the most accurate powder, with a starting load of 40.0gr and a maximum load of 44.0gr, but doesn't make a specific recommendation on the load.

A third choice would be the Speer 100gr Grand Slam SP. The Speer #14 Manual lists powders with a burn rate with a range between H-414 on the fast side, to Ramshot Magnum on the slow side. I haven't tried any of these, so this is only an educated guess on my part.

If you haven't loaded for the 243 WSSM very much, it does have some quirks. The original complaints with the cartridge had to do with pressure spikes resulting in really sticky bolt lift, and the thick case necks resulting in the cartridge not sealing the chamber, which left sooty deposits on the case necks and some times back down the case itself. The 243 WSSM case is formed shortening and necking down 300 WSM brass, which is itself relatively heavy. This does leave the case necks very thick. My 243 WSSM cases, which were all from the same lot, weighed on average between 213gr to 214gr. The case necks ranged from as narrow (in spots) as .019" to as wide as .025", with the average case neck thickness of .020" to .022". To make the situation worse, I think, Winchester did a poor job annealing these cases because they were not only thick, but also hard and brittle. If you haven't annealed case necks before, I think this would be a good time to learn.

I think these thick, heavy case necks are responsible for the pressure spikes causing the sticky bolt lift, sooty case necks, and some times worse things. Measuring your case necks will be difficult unless you have a "ball" type case neck micrometer, or some other tool made specifically for the job. If you don't have one, you can get a good idea of what your case necks are like by trimming a number of cases to length, and then examining them under a good light with a magnifying glass. You can also get an approximate idea of the dimensions by using a regular caliper or micrometer, and measuring the case necks every 90 degrees.

My cases also had a very rough inside surface of the case necks, and almost resembled single-sided corrugated card board, with wrinkles everywhere. Simply running these cases back through a sizing die wouldn't smooth out these wrinkles, and if anything work-hardened the brass making the situation worse. This situation also can be improved by annealing your case necks before attempting to resize them.

The nominal dimensions of the 243 WSSM case neck at the mouth is .291". For comparison, the nominal case neck dimension for the 240 Weatherby Magnum is .271", and for the 6mm PPC is .262". Most "normal" brass has a case neck thickness of about .013". This also helps understand the situation.

Once you understand what's going on, and anneal your cases, loading for the 243 WSSM is relatively straight forward. Despite these quirks, it's still one of my favorite cartridges.

If you have any other questions, fire away!

Dave

[kweidner]

In my experience they need annealing every firing. If they make it through the first they are usually good to go. The nickels are horrible about that. I use the winchester brass, neck turn em and anneal. They last much longer that way

[DR Owl Creek]

Sorry for the double post. The computer locked up, and I kept hitting the enter key.

Dave

[DR Owl Creek]

Doug,

When I first got my rifle, I tried several boxes of factory ammo to see what it liked best. The Winchester Supreme 55gr Ballistic Silvertips shot the best by far. The Winchester Supreme 95gr Ballistic Silvertips not so much so. Because of that, I started loading with 55gr bullets, and never tried anything heavier than 80gr. I thought that the 1:10" twist rate might be the reason for that.

I finally settled on the Nosler 80gr Ballistic Tip load for more reach and punch at longer ranges. That worked out just as well for me because I wanted this rifle to go along with my Bushmaster Varmint Special in .223/5.56, and my Kimber 84M Varmint in .22-250, for use at different ranges and situations.

For duplicating the factory 55gr load, take a look at the Nosler #7 Manual. For the Nosler 55gr Ballistic Tip, it suggests H-414 powder, with a starting load of 49.0gr at 3,826 fps and a maximum of 53.0gr at 4,150 fps, with the 53.0gr load being the most accurate load tested. As always, start low and work up, while watching for anything unusal.


Lloyd,

Split necks were a problem for me too. I also bought a couple of boxes of Federal factory loads. I don't remember what they were now, but it wasn't unusual to have several of them split on the first firing. They are all long gone now, and I don't have any other notes on them, so I can't tell you any more.

The sooty deposits on the cases even with "warmish" loads, split case necks, random unexplained fliers, and occasional sticky bolt lift even with mild loads, is what got me looking closely at the case necks. Case neck reaming or outside turning could fix some of the problems, but you can't take that too far because the 243 WSSM chamber is designed with the .291" case mouth dimension in mind, and taking it too far would cause other problems.

As Kweidner pointed out, annealing after every firing might be a good thing, particularly if you're shooting hotter loads.

The 243 WSSM seems to like to shoot loads at near maximum very well. Keep in mind though, it is designed to operate at up to 65,000 psi. Don't randomly pick a load that's half a grain under max from some book, particularly if you're substituting components, and expect everything to go well. A lot of things can happen, and not all of them are good. I remember seeing a picture on some other forum once. It showed what I believe was an Olympic Arms AR in 243 WSSM. A big chunk of the upper receiver was missing, along with most of the barrel extension. Fortunately, the guy didn't really get hurt too bad.

You don't have to run it at the max. Respect it, and you will do well.

Dave

[thadfz]

Thanks for all the great info guys. I haven't written off the cartridge buy any means. I'll keep trying with the interlocks as well.

[GabbyM]

Sierra's Pro Hunter #1540 flat base, as are all Pro Hunter bullets, is a good one without going to premium bullet prices. Sierra uses a harder lead alloy in the Pro Hunter line than used in the boat tail bullets. Tougher jacket too. 100 grain flat base is about all you can get stabilized in a 1:10" twist. Longer 100gr boat tails really need tighter twist which is why some 243's are faster. If you think you need a tougher bullet than the Sierra PH. Speer grand slam 100 grain would be my only recommendation. If that doesn't do it you just need a bigger gun. However I've never had Speer bullets shoot as accurate as Sierra or Hornady. My favorite long range varmint bullet for my 243 AI's is the Hornady 87 V-Max. In my experience. When the barrels start getting worn they quit stabilizing the heavier bullets. Then I can shoot a few hundred more 70 grain well then all of a sudden accuracy goes out the window.

Not a fan of the Hornady SST line. My daughter shot an antelope with one in a 270 Win. Bullet blew up the near front quarter then failed to exit. Goat did fall dead in it's tract however at over 150 yards IIRC.

[Lloyd Smale]

seems like a lot of bother. I guess ill stick the the 257 rob 2506 and 257wby and when I reload for his 25wssm ill just toss the bad ones and let him worry about finding more.
In my experience they need annealing every firing. If they make it through the first they are usually good to go. The nickels are horrible about that. I use the winchester brass, neck turn em and anneal. They last much longer that way

[Fishman]

I have had good luck running with starting loads in my son's browning abolt. Bullet fragmentation was a common occurrence with factory 100 gr loads, very destructive. That said he's well into double digits with it and he has the utmost confidence in it. It's a handy little rifle. How much velocity does a 75 lb deer need anyway?

[Motor]

I used the 100gr BTSP for about 12 years in my 6mm Rem. I think what you got was a result of high velocity (because of the short distance) and hitting solid bone.

I'd stick with it for deer sized game.

Motor

[mullthing]

I only shoot Nosler Ballistics tips and 95 grain Nosler's work very well in my 243 on deer.

[Motor]

I only shoot Nosler Ballistics tips and 95 grain Nosler's work very well in my 243 on deer.

I load the 95gr Nosler Ballistic Tip for 2 different .243 Win. rifles. They do work very well on whitetail deer. The .243 Win is a tad slower than the 6mm Rem but probably not enough to make any real difference at normal whitetail ranges. (muzzle to 200 yards, lol)

[Dryball]

Do yourself a favor and try the Barnes TTSX. Devistating on game, won't bloodshot the whole side of deer, and practically 100% weight retention.

[Lloyd Smale]

ive used 25 cal barnes bullets enough on deer to know they aren't the ticket and sure wouldn't use them in a 24 cal. Barness bullets work great. When there 7mm and larger. those small bullets don't reliably expand and even when they do they don't allways do enough damage to anchor deer and tend to leave poor blood trails. My partner and I started one crop damage shooting season using only .25 cal barnes bullets and after some all night tracking sessions on well hit deer we shelved them mid season.
Do yourself a favor and try the Barnes TTSX. Devistating on game, won't bloodshot the whole side of deer, and practically 100% weight retention.

[Dryball]

Ford vs. Chevy (as with anything) I guess...I should've added YMMV. I must admit I haven't tried them in anything .22cal...but have and do use them in .243 on up with previous stated results. The only way to know is try a bunch of different bullets and do your own testing...

[kweidner]

I will admit I shot one with the 70gr barnes in .22. have pictures somewhere. 300 yds. broadside. quarter size exit shot in the lungs. Went 20 yds. Second was facing me base of throat traveled ribcage and out ham nickel size exit DRT. My AR was in truck and my .308 scope took a dump that day. It was a one time all I had to hunt with thing. Might have been a freak thing. Sold me onBarnes and is all I would consider for awhile.
Either way, haven't shot a deer or hog in quite some time with one I didn't cast or swage. Barnes can have em all. I make my own. One day I am going to post the boxes upon boxes of tsx and ttsx I have in swap and sell. No need for em.

[thadfz]

Thanks again guys. Lots of useful info. I appreciate all the responses.