Lyman Neck Expander M Die 31 Caliber Long for .311 cast .30-30?

[Greg_Mid_TN]

I shoot cast in my Marlin .30-30s and have had pretty good success.

Now I'm ready to try to take it to the next level. I'm currently using a .310 expander ball in my Lee .30-30 decapping/resizing die and am having to anneal quite often as the die sizes down to .308 and the ball works the brass back out to just under .310. This is still a little tight for my cast boolits as they are normally around .3115.

My question: I think the Lyman Neck Expander M Die 31 Caliber Long is for .303 British and that the die body is too long. Should I buy a 30 M short die and get a 31 M expander (not been able to find just the expanders for the M dies in the catalog... could be just my eyes not working or brain failure) or should I buy a 31 M and have the die body cut down to a usable length.

Thanks for the help in advance,

Greg.

[Cherokee]

For my 30/30, I use an M-die expander that is marked 30R and my CBs are sized .311.

[Greg_Mid_TN]

Have you pulled a CB after seating and mic'd it? Mine are being resized down by the brass too much for my likes.

G.

[Czech_too]

I've been using a 30 Long "M" die for the 30-30 & a couple other cartridges. Sized .310 to .311 depending on rifle. Haven't pulled any boolits after seating because there's been no leading issues to date.

[popper]

30 M long die and get a 30R expander Or get NOE to cut you one for the Lee flare die. I've changed to using the M spud to expand, then the Lee flare, seems to work better. I have Hornady & Lee FL sizer die & use the Lee. CB's sized 311 for 336. You have to call Lyman to get the right part!
I'll probaby get NOE to make me one when I get a few things wrung out.

[Larry Gibson]

Greg

I suggest four things to consider; 1st is to get a Lee collet NS die for the 30-30. You can adjust it so it sizes the necks .000 - .001 under the size of the M die expander. Contrary to many expert writing 30-30 cases do not always need to be FL sized for use in lever actions, especially with most cast bullet loads. By just sizing the necks enough to properly hold the bullet the necks will not need to be annealed. I've shot a lot of such sized 30-30s in numerous lever actions over the years and have yet to annealed a 30-30 neck.

2nd suggestion is to use the 31 expander in a long M die body if your cast bullets are over .310 size. This has always provided excellent neck tension w/o the neck sizing the cast bullet or bending when the bullet is seated.

3rd is to call Lyman to order the 31 expander alone. However, the S&H costs for jus the expander alone will probably make just buying the complete 31 M die the better "deal".

4th suggestion and an alternative one if you have a Lee case mouth expander is to check out the expanders NOE makes for it. You can get an expander there that will be a perfect match for your bullet.

Larry Gibson

[LynC2]

Good advice Larry, I use the Lee collet die for my Marlin 30-30 and the M die. Like you say, no need to FL resize very often with most cast loads in a lever gun.

[Char-Gar]

I shoot cast in my Marlin .30-30s and have had pretty good success.

Now I'm ready to try to take it to the next level. I'm currently using a .310 expander ball in my Lee .30-30 decapping/resizing die and am having to anneal quite often as the die sizes down to .308 and the ball works the brass back out to just under .310. This is still a little tight for my cast boolits as they are normally around .3115.

My question: I think the Lyman Neck Expander M Die 31 Caliber Long is for .303 British and that the die body is too long. Should I buy a 30 M short die and get a 31 M expander (not been able to find just the expanders for the M dies in the catalog... could be just my eyes not working or brain failure) or should I buy a 31 M and have the die body cut down to a usable length.

Thanks for the help in advance,

Greg.

The answer to your question is that the 31 M-die expanding plug would be right for .311 bullets. The bottom step is .310 with the second step of .314. It can be used in the shorter body and are available from Lyman. It will take a phone call as they prefer to sell the entire die and hence do not list the plugs by themselves in the catalog.

As a rule, I prefer to use an expander the same size as the cast bullets or .001 smaller. This will give me neck tension of .0005 to .0015 depending on the make of the brass and how many times it has been sized.

I know nothing about Lee equipment as I don't use it, but there are several ways I get the proper expander for my various 30 caliber rifles shot with cast bullets.

1. With the use of a proper Lyman M-Die.

2. With an RCBS cast bullet expanding die. This die is available with interchangeable spuds that run from .308 to .311 in .001 steps.

3. I also have a pretty good collection of expanding plugs for the Lyman 310 tool. These can be used in a standard press with the thread adapter.

Case neck and shoulder annealing is way overdone in my opinion. It is true that brass will work hardened over time and given enough sizings and expanding can split. But in 50 years of reloading the 30-30, I have never annealed a case, nor have I had a neck split. 30-30 brass is cheap and plentiful, so there is no need to load the same case over and over and over and over etc. etc. again.

Target shooters and those after ultimate accuracy with cast bullets do anneal, but the purpose there is to keep the brass a uniform hardness for uniform neck tension which can make a smidgen of difference in accuracy. But a 30-30 Marlin is not a candidate for such niceties.

The need to full length cases for leverguns depends entirely on the the pressure of the load. If you are shooting full charge/pressure/velocity loads, then FL resizing ever few loadings will become a necessity. But if you are shooting cast bullets in the 1.5 to 1.8 K fps range as most of use do, neck sizing is all it takes.

In my 32 Winchester Special Model 94, I shoot hell-for-leather full snort loads and I do find the need to full length resize for that rifle and load.

In the 30-30 rounds, Marlin uses a 1-10 twist and Winchester uses a 1-12. Depending on the individual rifle, you can usually get more cast bullet velocity out of the Winchester before accuracy rolls snake eyes. It is pretty easy to get full snort velocity out of a Winchester and it is possible in the Marlin, but everything has to be just right. There is no "slip and slide" when loading Marlin 30-30s for full velocity.

Pardon me if this is a bit too long and digresses into areas not addressed in your original post, but I do tend to run on.

[1Shirt]

Yep, as usual, agree with Larry. Really like the NOE expanders for use in the Lee expanding die.
1Shirt!

[C.F.Plinker]

The short M1 body works with cases between 1.3 and 2.25 inches long. The long M2 body works with cases from 2.00 to 2.95 inches. The overlap from 2.0 to 2.25 includes 30-30, 308 and 303 Savage. Since you are loading for 30-30 you should be able to use either the long body or the short body. Now YMMV a little depending on the actual dimensions of your press, ram, and shell holder.

When I got my M dies I got one with the long body and 30R plug and the other with the short body and a 31R plug. This way I can mix and match bodies and plugs as necessary.

I haven't seen the plugs listed by themselves at the reloading supply sites I visit. My best luck has been just calling Lyman directly and ordering from them. The last time I called the plugs were $4 each.

[geargnasher]

I took my Lee .30-30 FL size die and honed the neck out to size my brass to just .309-ish on the inside, depending on make of brass. I use a .303 British ez-expander that's been back-cut to not bind the case mouth inside the die, the spud is .310" an is just there to drag out any dents or mashed case mouths. Then through an RCBS universal expander body with a .310" spud, set to 'just' bell the mouth enough to swallow 3/4 of the gas check when placing a bullet in the mouth by hand. Seat with a Forster Benchrest seating die that's had the neck portion of the sliding sleeve honed just a touch to accept the larger-than-normal case/bullet combo. With the correct alloy, bullet, and powder, 100-yard groups are easily covered with a quarter. One of the keys I found was in the case sizing, using a die modified to not overwork the brass and only "partial sizing" the brass, that is, backing the die about a turn off of the shellholder. Case necks get pulled off-center with the expander-ball type sizers if the neck is being squished too much, and most sizer dies push a neck ID down to .304" or less, which of course is WAY too much. .001-2" smaller than sized bullet diameter is about right for most rifle cartridges.

Gear

[Greg_Mid_TN]

Once again I am humbled by the responses! Thanks to all!

This is the best site with the best people!

I have lots of reading and ordering to do :-P

G.

[jaysouth]

Greg,

A couple of months ago I got the 31R expanders for both long and short dies. They do a better job of expanding my case necks for .310 and .311 bullets.

If you get close to Nashville, bring some brass and use my setup to expand your case necks.

I must have touched the hard heart of one of Lyman's CSRs. They sent me both for a dollar each plus one dollar for shipping.

Do not buy the RCBS expander die that is supposed to put the Lyman M out of business. It is a totally retarded design compared to Lyman. I got one a month ago and sold it to someone who was hard up for $5.

[geargnasher]

...
Do not buy the RCBS expander die that is supposed to put the Lyman M out of business. It is a totally retarded design compared to Lyman. I got one a month ago and sold it to someone who was hard up for $5.

Funny, the same thing can be said about the Lyman M die with the tension-ruining, oversized, sharp step and excessively large second-diameter shank. The truth of the matter is neither are "retarded" designs when properly understood and set up, but the user, well......

The BEST design is to buy a Lyman M die one caliber too big and fix what's wrong with it on a lathe or drill press.

Gear

[Char-Gar]

Do not buy the RCBS expander die that is supposed to put the Lyman M out of business. It is a totally retarded design compared to Lyman. I got one a month ago and sold it to someone who was hard up for $5.

I have read allot of misinformation on this site, but that is about good as such stuff gets. Sometime back Gear went to the mat over which was better the Lyman M-Die or the RCBS cast bullet expanders. I took the position that the M-Die was created in celestial regions and Gear said the RCBS better and I should give it a try.

I bought a full set of RCBS (.308 - .311) and gave them a try. I found the expanding spuds to be dead nuts on for diameter and di a first class job of expanding case necks to receive cast bullets. With a full set of spuds, I am set to expand necks for proper tension for bullets that run .309 to .313. This about covers my 30 caliber cast bullets needs.

The available range of M-Die expanders is much more limited and to get the same range of sizers you have to modify a larger one or have one custom made. Those are workable solutions, but the RCBS are available off the shelf.

There is only one difference I can tell between the RCBS and Lyman M-dies. The RCBS produces a bell on the case mouth to prevent bullet shaving upon seating and M-die have a second step a few thousands larger to do the same thing. In terms of practical accuracy there is none I can detect.

I use both M-dies and the RCBS and it is incorrect to say that the RCBS design is "retarded". I chose the words "misinformation" and "incorrect" as suitable for a public forum such as this, when referring to you post. I would have preferred to use more direct and earthy terms, but I controlled my impulse to do so. I will just let you intuit what those terms might have been.

[dragon813gt]

I have both the RCBS and Lyman M dies. Both work equally well. I don't find either design to be retarded. The RCBS is set up w/ my 300 Savage dies while an M die is set up w/ 308 dies. Some guys like trying to put square pegs in round holes.

[acrijos]

I use NOE's expanders in the Lee expander die, although you can also order oversized mandrels from Lee for their NS collet dies. Usually, you don't need anything else and you can have different options for different sized boolits for the same caliber.